Sure it does. You are saying Tebow went 1-4 just like Orton did, so when the QB switched happened you can't give credit to Tebow, but for that to make sense you have to assume orton would have won too, which you can't. Yeah, sorry, I didn't get past this point because it didn't make sense.
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Is Tebow being given a Fair shot? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Hairy Snowman
- Start date
Buffaloes
Footballguy
no, I don't think he was THE difference in those most of those wins. Unless his presence caused Nate Irving to jar the ball loose against Miami on an onside kick. Or unless it caused Barber to decide to run out of bounds and then cause Prater to subsequently hit 2 50+ yarders. Or unless it caused Von Miller to make a great play on Mike Tolbert knocking SD juuust outside Kaeding's kicking range. Or caused Denver's d to play lights out against a KC team that allowed only 2 completed passes all day. Or, etc...
So your take on this -- like many people -- you don't think Tebow is the reason why Denver won? Yet all he did was win, so we just have to take your word for it right? You don't think he deserves another chance to start at QB to prove you wrong, huh? How brave of you--people like you-- to say tebow sucks and tebow shouldn't be allowed another shot, that way, you can never be proven wrong. Kind of a cowardly stance to take but to each their own.
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Buffaloes
Footballguy
I sometimes get Darkwing Duck and Ducktales confused. Ducktales had the Irish duck that was rich and was a pretty cool NES game, no?
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The Future Champs
Footballguy
He's getting black balled by the NFL b/c he's a proven winner, a potentially great qb, a fan favorite, and a Christian. The NFL hates great qbs who are are fan favorites, and the whole country hates Christians, despite the fact that we're a Christian nation. It couldn't be more obvious.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Sarcastic hyperbole is the best thing in the world!!!! And always so helpful!!!!!! wOOt!!!
matuski
Footballguy
It is better than the dead serious hyperbole being tossed around in this thread. I wish ducktale was a joke...
biju
Footballguy
I wish I didn't just read this entire thread. I just couldn't help myself after reading some of the more ridiculous postings here. I really thought the duck was going to tip his troll hand but at the end I'm nervous that he's dead serious and that these people walk the streets with me.
Dude, nobody is persecuting him for being religious. Something tells me that you blame non-christians for a lot of stuff. I really think you need to re-evaluate your perspective...
Dude, nobody is persecuting him for being religious. Something tells me that you blame non-christians for a lot of stuff. I really think you need to re-evaluate your perspective...
Jeremy
Footballguy
You may not want to look deeper into Tebows "wins", but unfortunately for Tebow, NFL coaches and GMs do. They're not going to ignore the Marion Barber fluke, or the 59 yard FGs that followed. Or that the only reason they beat the Jets was because the defender blew containment on the game winning run. Or that teams will figure out how to force him to throw. Or all the things Buffaloes mentioned. They look at the whole picture. Not just the W/L record. Most are not carrying biases like people on both sides of this arguement. They're looking at all factors honestly, because they just want to win.ducktales said:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Witz
Footballguy
1). Regardless of how you wish to spin it, Tebow had the lowest completion percentage of all starting QB's over the last 11 years (as far back as ESPN had stats on). His completion percentage was 46.5% for the 2011 season where he was the starter. Putting forth an excuse that his completion percentage wasn't his fault but rather that it was due to the unique offense he was running is just silly. You could make the argument that any QB's completion percentage would be higher if their receivers caught more balls, if defenders hadn't intercepted them, etc but at the end of the day, the stats are the stats. You can't sit there and say he was not a 46.5% completion passer - he was. He threw 271 passes, 126 of which were caught. Now if you wanted to make an argument that they tried different things with Tebow which resulted in not as many completions, that's fine, but you can't say he didn't do what he did as it devalues anything else you are trying to say. Edit - regarding your comment that he lead the league in yards per completion. You are incorrect on this as there were a number of others who posted better.FreeBaGeL said:
2). Not sure who was calling the Denver defense magical, but to discount what they did during Tebow's turn as a starter (based on the overall rating which takes into a number of different factors) is crazy. During Tebows starts (including playoffs), the defense gave up the following points: 24-29 (L), 18-15 (W), 10-45 (L), 38-24 (W), 17-10 (W), 17-13 (W), 16-13 (W), 35-32 (W), 13-10 (W), 23-41 (L), 14-40 (L), 3-7 (L), 29-23 (W), 10-45 (L). In 5 of the 8 wins, the defense gave up 15 or fewer points (and even in one of the losses, they only gave up 7 points). A defense can let a team run up and down the field all they want (which plays into the overall rating you mentioned) but if they limit the number of points put on the board, that's really all that matters.
3. Not sure who said Tebow didn't do his part (especially in the playoff win). Tebow definitely played a part in those wins (and losses) but that's just it. It's a team sport - he played a part but was not the only reason for those wins.
In the end, should Tebow be given a chance to continue playing (albeit in a backup role)? Absolutely. He's just not the superstar that some make him out to be (or I should say some want him to be).
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
The rankings being passed around for Denver's defense were already in terms of points per game, not yards per game. Denver allowed the 24th fewest points in 2011, discounting the playoffs (which would only make that number worse).
As to your point about the number of points given up in wins, this has already been covered. They still don't rank well even if we cherry pick this apart and remove all those 40+ games by taking the losses out of the equation.
I'm not sure why that's being brought up anyway. That's how QBs with good win/loss records get good win/loss records. They post a good record in the games where the defense plays well and steal a few in the games where the defense plays poorly. Brady/Brees/Rogers are the exception but no one is comparing Tebow to those guys.
Many people have deemed the Broncos defense in 2011 as being "great" and tried to deflect the majority of the credit for the wins in that direction, but the bottom line is that they were in no way great or even good. They had a handful of decent games that stick in people's head but for each of those they had a miserable game that people conveniently forget about. They were a bad defense that got absolutely shredded any time they faced an opponent with an even mildly competent downfield passing attack.
the question is Tebow getting a fair shot?
The answer is yes.
Nothing in the NFL is especially fair but two teams gave this former first rounder a chance.
There are plenty of players who get no chances, or maybe one chance. Tebow has been given chances, and he will probably get more. That's not only fair it's better than alot of guys.
The answer is yes.
Nothing in the NFL is especially fair but two teams gave this former first rounder a chance.
There are plenty of players who get no chances, or maybe one chance. Tebow has been given chances, and he will probably get more. That's not only fair it's better than alot of guys.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Where is FavreCo?
Buffaloes
Footballguy
If you are taking this straight from the their aggregate stats that year, sure. Games against the Pats, Lions, GB skew the overall ranking, though. Instead, go back and watch the d in games against Mia, Chi, NYJ, KC, SD, etal and tell us w/ a straight face that the D did not keep them in those games. Argue that those offences were subpar, whatever. The point is Denver never would have been in those games had the d not played at the level it played. When the d didn't play well the usual result were games like NE, GB (which was pre-TT, but the point stands), Detroit, and Denver was unable to sustain any sort of passing attack that could lead the team back. Sometimes it takes more than looking at a defence's aggregate stats to understand their role in the 9 games the team did win that year.Was Denver's d great that year? Nope. Good? debatable, but I think an argument can be made considering the circumstances. They couldn't compete with elite offences, but they were also stranded on the field for most of those gamse because they had an offence led by a QB who could not sustain drives in high-scoring games. It was a totally unsustainable system. It was fun, and I'd like to see it replicated--just not on the team I root for. The defence certainly should be credited for its efforts in the games Denver eked out in the 4th quarters and OTs.
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While I do agree that the D did keep Denver in those games, I think it is notable that they played against starting QB's of Matt Moore (playing for injured Chad Henne), Caleb Hanie (playing for an injured Jay Cutler), Mark Sanchez (may as well have been injured himself), Matt Cassel/Tyler Palko (I believe Cassel was benched in this game) and Phillip Rivers. I am not downgrading the Defense because of them playing bad teams but that is not exactly a murderers row of QB'ing right there and I would argue that those teams were all better defensively than they were offensively that year.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
yes, and I addressed that in my post when I said those offences were subpar. Despite that, the Denver offence was barely able to put points on the board in those games and would have lost to those teams had the d not kept those close--and in some cases help the Tebow-led offence by scoring points on turnovers. My overall point is TT needed the d to play extremely well in order to win most of those games.
I wish it was a joke as well, but its sad how petty people can be.matuski said:
"ohhh so scary, people that don't think exactly like me walk the same streets, what do i do!!!? DEAR SCIENCE HELP ME!!!!!"
you don't need win every game to be a winner, which is what i was saying, and im sure you knew what people like me meant and you're just nitpicking
He succeeded with denver and only left because he got replaced by one of the best QBs of all time. The jets organization doesn't count, they are a joke.
oh man, i bet this video makes a lot of atheists angry, as well as the hypocritical religious folks. good thing we can tell ourselves he is bad at football, at least we have that. also, good thing we can demand he doesn't get another chance to start otherwise we could be proven wrong and SCIENCE, how terrible that would be to be proven wrong.
Not to harp on this point because I am fairly certain we are on the same page, but you did address those offences as subpar by saying "argue those offences are subpar, whatever",(which leads me to believe that you are actually blowing off how bad those offenses are) and my point is that not only were they subpar but half of them were bad offense being lead by the backup making them even worse. So even though you can argue that the Pats, Lions and GB games will skew the defense one way, you can absolutely argue that games against these teams particularly with the QB'ing they faced would skew it the other way.
The fact that Denver was barely able to put up points in those games is completely valid, but it was not because of spectacular defense that they won those games, at least not in my opinion. That Jets game is one of the games that I doubt that I will ever forget because of how absolutely atrocious the game was offensively. TT had a great last drive but outside of that, I can not recall a game where I was more bored by the bad offense (and I am a Bears fan and have seen some terrible offense in my time). But I definitely remember watching that game and not thinking about how great the defenses were playing, just how bad the offenses were playing.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I know. It wasn't like they were only one season removed from back to back AFC Championship game appearances when they signed Tebow.
Let's apply the same logic that you use. Why shouldn't the Jets have given Sanchez the opportunity to straighten himself out? I mean, all the guy did was win games his first three seasons in the league. He had 4 road playoff wins on his resume - how many other QBs can boast that, especially after only two seasons in the NFL? He had to have been a great QB, right?
Oh and even during the 2012 season - the Tebow era - the Jets were still in playoff contention heading into the final quarter of the season - mostly because the AFC was so weak of course, but there they were. Shouldn't they have stuck with a guy that was such a proven winner in Mark Sanchez?
Hey, I like Tim Tebow. He was a great teammate and was all class the entire season he spent with the Jets. He did everything the team asked him to do and Tony Sporano and the rest of the coaching staff certainly didn't do him any favors when they did put him in the game on offense to run the "wildcat". He's a hard worker and a solid citizen. I actually hope he does find success in this league - I also thought what he did in Denver was exciting and got swept up in it, even while he was leading his team to a victory over the team I root for.
However, he just isn't a very good QB right now. Statistics and the "eyeball test" both show that. If he was as good as you are trying to make him out to be, teams would be lining up to sign him.
But he's a Christian so no one wants him right? I remember when Ray Lewis and Kurt Warner were both forced out of the league as well for being outspoken Christians. Stupid media would have us beleive it was because they were old and wanted to retire though.
You haven't posted on any other topic than tim Tebow since you've been here, so I know I'm probably falling for your fishing trip here - but enough is enough. There's no conspiracy at work here, at worst you can say most NFL teams are afraid to take an unconventional approach to running an offense, which is what would be required if a team wanted to use Tebow properly - which is why he also doesn't work as a backup QB, a team can't run a whole new offense if their starter gets injured.
Witz
Footballguy
That was a great piece and a great thing Tebow did for Adam. All that being said, what does that have to do with the topic in this thread?
I don't think you'll find anyone who says that Tebow isn't a great guy. He does a lot of great things, is involved in a number of charities and carries himself with respect and honor.
What he does off the field is completely separate to what folks have been discussing around his abilities on the football field. Not sure why you are trying to tie the two together. So if someone doesn't think he has what it takes to be an NFL QB, than that equates to folks not liking him as a person or being anti-religious? Really, really not sure how you can continue to treat the both as linked.
I don't think you'll find anyone who says that Tebow isn't a great guy. He does a lot of great things, is involved in a number of charities and carries himself with respect and honor.
What he does off the field is completely separate to what folks have been discussing around his abilities on the football field. Not sure why you are trying to tie the two together. So if someone doesn't think he has what it takes to be an NFL QB, than that equates to folks not liking him as a person or being anti-religious? Really, really not sure how you can continue to treat the both as linked.
"[SIZE=11.5pt]The Jets refuse to play Tebow[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]– The Jets put on their Fonzie leather jacket and jumped the personnel shark when they simply refused to play Tebow, even when Sanchez’s season spun helplessly down the sewer.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Tebow simply rode the bench all year, save for a couple token snaps. He attempted 8 passes all year. The decision to ignore Tebow gave the Jets the appearance of a rudder-less ship: somebody very high in the organization wanted Tebow on the team; but somebody stalking the sideline clearly didn’t want him to play.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Put another way: the top of the Jets depth chart was filled by one quarterback who couldn’t play and another quarterback they wouldn’t play.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The Jets play Greg McElroy[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]– Sanchez become the butt – quite literally – of a national joke when his terrible play met a physically and symbolically terrible moment.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]In a 49-19 home loss to the Patriots on Thanksgiving night witnessed only by every football fan in America, Sanchez managed to get pancaked by the ### of his own center – defying the known laws of Newtonian physics in the process.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]He also fumbled the ball, which the Patriots scooped up and ran in for a touchdown. Pictures of the play ran on an endless loop on TV and internet video for weeks.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Sanchez was so bad the following week against the Cardinals (10 of 21, 97 yards, 0 TD, 3 INT, 21.4 rating) that even coach Rex Ryan had to sit his beloved little binky.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]But instead of giving productive back-up Tebow a shot, the Jets instead inserted forgotten third-stringer McElroy in the line-up in a late-season game against the Chargers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The Jets lost, 27-17, marking the end of the McElroy experiment. Sanchez started the final game of the year and was perfectly inept in a 28-9 loss to the Bills.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The Jets chose to suck[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]– The worst part of this whole charade is that the Jets failed to insert Tebow in the line up even as it became apparent to everyone not coaching the Jets that they needed a change at quarterback.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]As we noted over the weekend, Sanchez was perhaps the worst quarterback in football in 2012, with a 55.3 Real Quarterback Rating. It’s worth noting that Tebow’s career Real Quarterback Rating of 81.2 would have been good enough for 14th in the NFL last year.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]There is no doubt by any empirical measure that Tebow would have been a more productive quarterback than Sanchez. There is no doubt by any empirical measure that the Jets would have been more likely to win games with Tebow at quarterback.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Keep in mind that teams that posted a higher Real QB Rating won 85.5 percent of NFL games last year (218-37).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Yet the Jets simply refused to put Tebow on the field except for a few token snaps. They refused to give even a whiff of opportunity to a playoff quarterback who, last we saw, inspired a miraculous turnaround of the Broncos and lifted that team to just its second postseason win of the past 15 years.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Yes, the yet the Jets refused to give THAT guy a chance to play even when it became apparent the guy on the field might have been the worst quarterback in football.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]In other words, the Jets sucked not because they had to in 2012. The Jets sucked because they chose to in 2012.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]There's not many things worse you can say about an organization."[/SIZE]
http://www.coldhardf...im-tebow/22528/
It makes people feel jealous and insecure over themselves when they see someone being a better person than them, especially if they're an atheist and he is religious, so to deal with that stress they have to lie to themselves saying "at least he is a terrible QB hahaha he is so bad what a joke he throws like a girl lmao"
Witz
Footballguy
By the same logic, why would we as football fans even want to watch or become engaged in football? It's a pretty safe bet that 99.99% of the folks that watch football have no where near the level of skill of those actually playing in the NFL. Wouldn't that mean we'd want every single one of them to fail at what they are doing?
I think you're trying to attribute folks not being sold on Tebow's football skill in the NFL with him as person and that's far from the case no matter how hard you try to prove the connection.
I think you're trying to attribute folks not being sold on Tebow's football skill in the NFL with him as person and that's far from the case no matter how hard you try to prove the connection.
matuski
Footballguy
This is the type of thing religious people tell themselves to feel better. Head in the sand.
matuski
Footballguy
If Tim Tebow could save or protect a coach's job, he would have a job. Winning puts food on the table for NFL decision makers and if even one of them thought Tebow made their team better he would be on a roster. End of story.
Making it about religion is nothing more than desperate denial.
Eta - this should move to the FFA at this point.
Making it about religion is nothing more than desperate denial.
Eta - this should move to the FFA at this point.
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It doesn’t require thinking or self-evaluation about how one lives their life just to watch football; most of the time they will just say to themselves “oh they were born with that talent.” When an athlete talks like an idiot, commits crimes, especially ones that are religious--insecure atheists need confirmation-- , it makes people feel better about themselves and the way they live life.
When Tebow comes around, talks clearly, doesn’t commit crimes, help others and wins in the nfl, it’s just too much for people to handle. They have to run the smear propaganda.
You are either an intellectual liar or naive. I am guessing the first.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog/?p=2064
Why Christians drive everyone else nuts – Tim Tebow’s Hypocrisy
“Tim Tebow is well known for his Christianity, but it gets to point where it can drive people nuts:”
Enough said
When Tebow comes around, talks clearly, doesn’t commit crimes, help others and wins in the nfl, it’s just too much for people to handle. They have to run the smear propaganda.
You are either an intellectual liar or naive. I am guessing the first.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog/?p=2064
Why Christians drive everyone else nuts – Tim Tebow’s Hypocrisy
“Tim Tebow is well known for his Christianity, but it gets to point where it can drive people nuts:”
Enough said
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Buffaloes
Footballguy
yeah, I think we are pretty much on the same page and that was probably bad wording on my part. I'd agree the opposition's o was pretty bad over that winning stretch. And the point here isn't how dominant Denver's d was, but that TT needed the D to hold the opposition to very few points in order to stay in the game. Main point being, if Denver's d didn't hold the opposition's o to a low scoring output, Denver didn't have a chance. I would agree that the d wasn't anywhere near awesome, and that's another reason why winning the way they were winning was unsustainable. They weren't going to face backup or backup quality QBs every week and thus would have needed stronger QB play to win regularly.
BruceAlmighty
Footballguy
What is happening here is zealots are projecting their religious fervor onto a football player. These people are completely irrational. You cannot debate a person who believes that a man was eaten by a whale and defecated out after three days relatively unharmed. They will defend their delusions till death, and often have. Nietzsche once said "a casual stroll through the lunatic asylum will teach you all you need to know about faith". These people believe their dog talks to them. These people hijack airliners in the name of God. These people denounce science yet they have doctors deliver their babies and they frequent Internet chat rooms created through scientific endeavors. Why do religious people go to doctors to be cured of their ailments? Why not just pray? God probably views chemotherapy as a slap in His face. He obviously wanted you to have cancer. It is no accident that believers are compared to sheep in the Bible. They are dumb herd animals who spend their life being fleeced.
Now these people have a football player to project their delusions onto. "All he does is win". Except when he doesn't. "He deserves a chance to show his worth in an offense catered to his skills". So an NFL organization should overhaul its identity to SEE if he's good?
I agree with bagel's post. He's not as bad as some think he is and vice versa. The disconnect is that people in his corner literally believe that he is God's Gift to Football, and they will go to their grave believing that. And that is the main reason why he will not get an offer from an NFL team.
Now these people have a football player to project their delusions onto. "All he does is win". Except when he doesn't. "He deserves a chance to show his worth in an offense catered to his skills". So an NFL organization should overhaul its identity to SEE if he's good?
I agree with bagel's post. He's not as bad as some think he is and vice versa. The disconnect is that people in his corner literally believe that he is God's Gift to Football, and they will go to their grave believing that. And that is the main reason why he will not get an offer from an NFL team.
Interesting question, I have one for you as well. Do you still think Tebow is the greatest QB of all time?
Banger
Footballguy
"The Jets refuse to play Tebow – The Jets put on their Fonzie leather jacket and jumped the personnel shark when they simply refused to play Tebow, even when Sanchez’s season spun helplessly down the sewer.
Tebow simply rode the bench all year, save for a couple token snaps. He attempted 8 passes all year. The decision to ignore Tebow gave the Jets the appearance of a rudder-less ship: somebody very high in the organization wanted Tebow on the team; but somebody stalking the sideline clearly didn’t want him to play.
Put another way: the top of the Jets depth chart was filled by one quarterback who couldn’t play and another quarterback they wouldn’t play.
The Jets play Greg McElroy – Sanchez become the butt – quite literally – of a national joke when his terrible play met a physically and symbolically terrible moment.
In a 49-19 home loss to the Patriots on Thanksgiving night witnessed only by every football fan in America, Sanchez managed to get pancaked by the ### of his own center – defying the known laws of Newtonian physics in the process.
He also fumbled the ball, which the Patriots scooped up and ran in for a touchdown. Pictures of the play ran on an endless loop on TV and internet video for weeks.
Sanchez was so bad the following week against the Cardinals (10 of 21, 97 yards, 0 TD, 3 INT, 21.4 rating) that even coach Rex Ryan had to sit his beloved little binky.
But instead of giving productive back-up Tebow a shot, the Jets instead inserted forgotten third-stringer McElroy in the line-up in a late-season game against the Chargers.
The Jets lost, 27-17, marking the end of the McElroy experiment. Sanchez started the final game of the year and was perfectly inept in a 28-9 loss to the Bills.
The Jets chose to suck – The worst part of this whole charade is that the Jets failed to insert Tebow in the line up even as it became apparent to everyone not coaching the Jets that they needed a change at quarterback.
As we noted over the weekend, Sanchez was perhaps the worst quarterback in football in 2012, with a 55.3 Real Quarterback Rating. It’s worth noting that Tebow’s career Real Quarterback Rating of 81.2 would have been good enough for 14th in the NFL last year.
There is no doubt by any empirical measure that Tebow would have been a more productive quarterback than Sanchez. There is no doubt by any empirical measure that the Jets would have been more likely to win games with Tebow at quarterback.
Keep in mind that teams that posted a higher Real QB Rating won 85.5 percent of NFL games last year (218-37).
Yet the Jets simply refused to put Tebow on the field except for a few token snaps. They refused to give even a whiff of opportunity to a playoff quarterback who, last we saw, inspired a miraculous turnaround of the Broncos and lifted that team to just its second postseason win of the past 15 years.
Yes, the yet the Jets refused to give THAT guy a chance to play even when it became apparent the guy on the field might have been the worst quarterback in football.
In other words, the Jets sucked not because they had to in 2012. The Jets sucked because they chose to in 2012.
There's not many things worse you can say about an organization."
http://www.coldhardf...im-tebow/22528/
You act as if he's Islamic playing in the nfl. The vast majority of nfl players and the country are christian. Tebow is a great guy, he's just a bad qb.
Run It Up
Footballguy
tombonneau
Footballguy
I think the Niners should bring him in as a backup for the Pistol. They could handle the circus and he's at least a third-string QB in that offense.
az_prof
Footballguy
How many other QBs take over a 1-4 team and lead it to a playoff win and then "suck" so badly they never get to start again? Right. None.
Rookie_Whisperer
Footballguy
I agree 100% here. People who know nothing about football have been so blinded by their conviction (that he had some destiny to be fulfilled in the NFL and is not being given the chance to be on the grand stage to proselytize to football fans) that they can't see that he is a terrible passer. Period. Good guy or not, he can not throw the ball. Last time I checked, throwing the ball is a condition of employment for QBs. Frankly the whole religious showboating bugged me when Dion did it, when Ray Lewis did it, and it bugged me when Tebow did it. The difference is Ray and Dion could play their positions at a high level. And correct me if I'm wrong but everyone knew what Ray and Dion were like and they never had a problem keeping a job or being on camera representing their teams. Those of us who don't believe in talking snakes just rolled our eyes when they spoke and enjoyed them on the field. But, hiding behind the skirt of some make believe christian discrimination conspiracy in the US is just a ridiculous position that has no basis in reality when 80+% of Americans identify themselves as Christian. Whoever believes that should probably step away from the 24 hr conspiracy/news channels for a while.
pittstownkiller
Footballguy
While I had stated that Tebow wasn't given a fair shot, it had nothing to do with his religion nor his football ability (to an extent); it had to do with that the Jets were awful and should have at least seen what they had in him.
It's ironic that you call christianity extreme then make an extreme statement like he can not throw the ball.
They aren't doing it for you. You might pick the channel on the TV or pay for the seats at the game, but that gesture is as much for you as the tampon commercials are.
He is(or was) an extremely fortunate person with special talent and athleticism able to play at a level that more than 99% of the people in the world can't play at. It's a blessing or a gift to them similar to you winning the lottery. Who knows how you'd act if you won the lottery or got to lead an NFL team into the playoffs. Surely there would be some celebration. I don't have any problem with him thanking God nor do I when he thanks his coach and teammates for the opportunity. I appreciate the humility in thanking others for the opportunity.
Would you thank the lottery commission or the clerk that sold you a lottery ticket or the store owner?
It's the gesture that's meaningful to some-the humility of it while on a grand stage like an NFL end zone on national TV.
At no point, did Ray Lewis or Tebow stop running toward the endzone and ask if "Rookie Whisperer" believed in God and would support them, nor did they stop running and say you should.
Maybe NFL fans want something other than TO using a sharpie, Sharpe fictitiously calling the president, or Ocho's antics.
Do you recall Sweetness thanked Jesus or Mark Bavaro made the sign of the cross after he scored? Those two were oh so popular and appreciated for their hard work on the field.
BTW when you made your inflammatory statement of talking snakes did you understand the board rules here? They're pretty open about discussing religion here (in the FFA) but antagonizing people of a certain religion that's probably not your best move here.
Rookie_Whisperer
Footballguy
I apologize if I offended anyone here, but to correct the record a) I did not call christianity extreme b) I never said Tebow did anything specifically for me c) I never disparaged anyone playing in the NFL because I am all too aware of the odds of making it to that position d) I never mentioned endzone celebrations e) I never wanted Ray Lewis or Tebow to check with me on anything, especially my personal belief system. I'm not sure why you are imagining I said these things, but ok....His ability has always been what I questioned and that he should have never been drafted in the 1st rd of the NFL draft. His talent did not warrant that draft position and everyone seemed to know that other than Josh McDaniels, the media and some draftniks who continuously hyped the kid. Face it, he was an experiment at the QB position that didn't work out. He should have been drafted in the 3rd or 4th and then allowed to overhall that throwing motion of his that takes waaaaay too long and nearly scrapes his thigh before he finds a way to get rid of it. If he had the opportunity to sit and watch, retool his motion, learn to read defenses, etc. who knows? But don't forget, his hometown team, the Jacksonville Jaguars could have acquired him last year for a song and chose to pass. They could have gotten him for a 3rd rd pick last year if they chose to outbid the Jets. They didn't. And with that 3rd round pick they drafted a PUNTER. That is truly sad when your hometown team opts to take a punter over a guy who they know will put fans in seats and sell jerseys. I see that you like him for reasons other than his ability to play the position and dislike other players who choose to celebrate with pens and phones. That is your thing but I did not call your belief "extreme" as it is inline with the majority of people in the US, but you are kidding yourself if you think he can throw the ball with anyone at the NFL level. What do you know that 32 GMs and 32 head coaches and 32 QB coaches don't know? Surely someone in the NFL would go to bat for the guy if they thought he could sit the bench for a while on a team and not be a distraction. Did you watch him throw the ball in that NY wind? Did you see those wobbly passes of his catch the wind and take off? How about Denver? Did you see some of that? There were times that ball of his would nearly helicopter when he tried to wing it downfield. He was lucky to keep it in play on sideline passes downfield.Again my apologies to those who were/are offended. Face it Bri, you are in the 80%. Why are you so uptight about it? If you find things in your belief system inflammatory when they are brought up, that isn't my problem, that's yours.
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az_prof
Footballguy
This is what I don't get: "Face it, he was an experiment at the QB position that didn't work out."
Really? I can see saying "he hasn't proven yet that he is a good NFL QB." Or, "he did play well enough at the QB position to lead a team that was 1-4 when he took over the playoffs, but there were other factors that may have helped him and we don't know if he can do it again consistently."
In other words, I can accept scepticism. But to assert that it is a fact that he "didn't work out" seems on the surface a factual error. Compare how much opportunity he has been given and what he has done with it to Jamarcus Russell? Russell proved he couldn't be a good NFL QB. There is no question. He had three years of starting to prove it. Tebow hasn't even had one full season of starting to prove it nor has he had one off season where he is the "guy" getting all the first team reps.
Really? I can see saying "he hasn't proven yet that he is a good NFL QB." Or, "he did play well enough at the QB position to lead a team that was 1-4 when he took over the playoffs, but there were other factors that may have helped him and we don't know if he can do it again consistently."
In other words, I can accept scepticism. But to assert that it is a fact that he "didn't work out" seems on the surface a factual error. Compare how much opportunity he has been given and what he has done with it to Jamarcus Russell? Russell proved he couldn't be a good NFL QB. There is no question. He had three years of starting to prove it. Tebow hasn't even had one full season of starting to prove it nor has he had one off season where he is the "guy" getting all the first team reps.
Rookie_Whisperer
Footballguy
Did you watch the NE game when they got behind by 14 pts early on? Then 21? etc..... You'd better believe the other 30 teams in the NFL watched that drubbing. The Broncos and Tebow did not have an answer on how to come back in a game like that or even make a respectable showing. I believe that was the last time we saw him play a meaningful snap. The majority of wins Tebow had were when the defense played their butts off and kept the game close. Heck, Trent Dilfer won a Superbowl back in 2000 (?) by being a game manager but was holding a clip board the next season. In his case, the defense rightfully got the credit and I think people underestimate that Bronco Defense during that streak. Tebow is, at best, a game manager who requires a very specific system and very conservative play calling coupled with a dominating defense.
And I don't honestly see why you can't get over the fact that it didn't work out for him? It happens to a lot of QBs. Every team in the NFL seems to think he didn't work out as a QB, what is your hangup?
"I can see saying "he hasn't proven yet that he is a good NFL QB." Really, I don't know why I need to parse words here. Are you related to him or something? There are a lot of QBs out there that haven't proven that they are good NFL QBs either. Tebow got a look and no NFL teams liked what they saw. What he showed is that he has major mechanical flaws and is not capable of throwing the ball on par with the rest of the league.
az_prof
Footballguy
So, you base a first year starting QB's future on one playoff game against the NE Patriots? The Patriots have destroyed a lot of QBs in their time. I did see that game. I also saw Tebow defeat the vaunted Steeler's defense. He was inconsistent. Most young QBs are.
