I've changed my mind (1 Viewer)

[Footballg]

What they are doing is not mysterious. It is not playing with a chip on their shoulder. It is not spiting anyone, showing up their opponent, or running up the score. It is exactly how they have always played, only they have much better recievers, and so get better results --- that's it. Their plans and attitudes are very well documented.

You'd better get used to it, too, because you know they're locking up Randy in the offseason.

As a side note:

Jesus, Atlanta is really horrible.

 

[smcindoe]

It is exactly how they have always played, only they have much better recievers, and so get better results --- that's it. Their plans and attitudes are very well documented.

Come on. They always went for it instead of kicking the field goal, on fourth down in field goal position? Vinataeri got to be a superstar based on extra points?

 

[bostonfred]

It is exactly how they have always played, only they have much better recievers, and so get better results --- that's it. Their plans and attitudes are very well documented.

Come on. They always went for it instead of kicking the field goal, on fourth down in field goal position? Vinataeri got to be a superstar based on extra points?

Vinatieri never had a great FG%, and the Pats have gone for it on fourth down more than almost any other team. I don't think that's the reason they're going for it on fourth down right now, but that's the answer to your question.

 

[Footballg]

They go for it on 4th because it's the common sense thing to do, and the right thing to do -- it's no mystery, or big surprise. They didn't just drop out of outer space yesterday, although maybe some people outside New England just happened to start watching them this year, or read the endless gossip columns that name drop them to lure in readers.

If going for it on 4th is so traumatic for some people I'd suggest they watch a different game.

 

[Statorama]

- Lots of people waiting in the "I told you so" line if Brady gets thumped when dropping back to pass with 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter in a game they're leading 52-10. Teams playing the Patriots don't seem to have the same vitriol as message board posters these days.- Patriots are putting a lot of their plays out there for other coaches to study. It won't bite them against scrub teams like Buffalo, but it might really help a team like the Steelers. Every time that first unit offense trots out there, it's another set of plays to review for playoff time. I don't know why they don't play it a little more vanilla when the game is out of reach.

- Brady hasn't been in there in the late fourth quarter of blowouts. He's been routinely taken out with somewhere between ten and twelve minutes left in the game. - The Pats ARE running their vanilla offense late in blowouts. What makes you think otherwise?

I was just exaggerating my point about Brady. But he IS routinely in there when they have a 28+ point lead in the fourth quarter.I think they are not running vanilla offense because they are still scoring. They aren't THAT good that they can march up and down the field with a "3 yards and a cloud of dust" gameplan.

 

[Statorama]

If you notice, Fred, the guy turns off his tv halfway throught the Pats games, so I'm not sure if he's going to have much of an informed opinion on the second half for you.

That's not very excellent of you.

 

[Footballg]

They aren't THAT good that they can march up and down the field with a "3 yards and a cloud of dust" gameplan.

incorrect. 1-10-NE 23 (10:57) M.Cassel in at QB. 44-H.Evans up the middle to NE 29 for 6 yards (37-G.Wilson).2-4-NE 29 (10:24) 44-H.Evans right guard to NE 35 for 6 yards (55-A.Crowell).1-10-NE 35 (9:47) 44-H.Evans up the middle to NE 41 for 6 yards (33-J.Greer).2-4-NE 41 (9:06) 44-H.Evans right guard to NE 44 for 3 yards (55-A.Crowell; 56-K.Ellison).3-1-NE 44 (8:25) 16-M.Cassel pass short left to 44-H.Evans to NE 48 for 4 yards (95-K.Williams). Play action pass, caught at NE 46.1-10-NE 48 (7:43) 38-K.Eckel right guard to NE 49 for 1 yard (92-R.Denney).2-9-NE 49 (7:01) 44-H.Evans up the middle to BUF 40 for 11 yards (52-J.DiGiorgio).1-10-BUF 40 (6:15) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short middle to 38-K.Eckel to BUF 34 for 6 yards (38-J.Butler; 55-A.Crowell). Caught at BUF 35.

 

[Outlaw Spades]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.

Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.

I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.

Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.

I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

I think what's changing is we're becoming more statistics-based and less concerned about the bigger picture. It used to be that you played to win the game (thanks Herm), and now you play to accumulate lots of statistics and flex your muscles at every opportunity. Winning is nice, but showing off is very important-- watch players celebrate a TD when they're still losing. Watch NBA players joke around on the bench in the waning minutes of a blowout. A lot of it has to do with compensation-- players get paid bonuses based on your stats. So, naturally, the stats are what matter. As fans, we play fantasy football and Madden, and we judge everything by statistics as well. Winning 13-10 is "boring." Winning 73-3 is awesome.

Contrary to popular belief, the goal of the offense is not to score on every drive. When it's 1st-and-10 from your own one...the goal is often to not do anything stupid and give your punter a chance to kick the ball away. On 3rd-and-25, teams often run or throw a short pass. They're not trying to score. They're trying to minimize mistakes so they can eventually get a W.

As fans, we seem to respect the stats more than the end result-- like winning isn't good enough anymore. Maybe that's a negative of fantasy football; I don't know. But I do think things are changing in sports, and it's not really all for the better.

Regarding the Patriots, I don't think they've really been that bad about running up the score...but they're on the line. Yeah, they're getting a lot of stats and it's impressive, but outside of fantasy football I don't care about stats. 10-0 is more impressive. A chance at another ring is impressive. This running up the score argument and record-book talk detracts from what should be most important.

I think that by playing that way, they invite a little of that talk. That isn't hate or jealousy. It's just the way it looks to me. I don't care what NE fans think because they aren't a part of the team's success. They don't play or do anything important. They just spend their money on team gear and tickets and whatnot. Really, they're nothing. Same with fans of every team, so what they say or do doesn't upset or impress me. It's about the team and what they do, not the tag-alongs who have no role to play except revenue provider.

 

[DropKick]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

They were up "pretty big", huh? For what its worth, that big lead almost disappeared as the Lions scored two 4th quarter TDs and actually narrowed the game to a TD/conversion late.Every NFL team takes a FG at that point; I think it pushed their lead from 19 to 22 points. If they scored a TD on 3rd down, are they running up the score? Why would 4th down be so different?

 

[eom]

Contrary to popular belief, the goal of the offense is not to score on every drive. When it's 1st-and-10 from your own one...the goal is often to not do anything stupid and give your punter a chance to kick the ball away.

and that is the difference between you and the pats.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Contrary to popular belief, the goal of the offense is not to score on every drive. When it's 1st-and-10 from your own one...the goal is often to not do anything stupid and give your punter a chance to kick the ball away.

and that is the difference between you and the pats.

I don't think that's true at all. If they were in a close game and backed up like that, I think BB would be smart about it. But if trying to score on every drive is more important than winning, I'm not unhappy to side with those who think winning is the main goal. In the same manner that the icing-the-kicker move can backfire (like it did with Shanahan on Monday), trying to score when you're backed up at the one can backfire as well. This isn't Madden.

 

[NEUPJ]

Or they could just intentionally take the safety to help the defense with field position.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.

Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.

I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

Contrary to popular belief, the goal of the offense is not to score on every drive. When it's 1st-and-10 from your own one...the goal is often to not do anything stupid and give your punter a chance to kick the ball away. On 3rd-and-25, teams often run or throw a short pass. They're not trying to score. They're trying to minimize mistakes so they can eventually get a W.

This guy clearly never looks at the bigger picture. The goal of any offense is always to score. The short term goal, might be to get 4 yards, or get the ball out of bounds, but I assure you the offensive coordinator only has one play that is called in hopes of it not going the distance and thats the kneel down.

 

[smcindoe]

They go for it on 4th because it's the common sense thing to do, and the right thing to do -- it's no mystery, or big surprise. They didn't just drop out of outer space yesterday, although maybe some people outside New England just happened to start watching them this year, or read the endless gossip columns that name drop them to lure in readers.

Hold on, I'm going to slam my head into my desk until this line of reasoning makes sense.[fifteen minutes later]Yes, good point here. Prior to this season, the three-time Super Bowl champion Patriots really didn't get much press or tv coverage. Most of us had never even heard of Tom Brady until this year. They are playing no differently than in the past, it's just that the media has finally noticed them.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.

Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.

I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

Contrary to popular belief, the goal of the offense is not to score on every drive. When it's 1st-and-10 from your own one...the goal is often to not do anything stupid and give your punter a chance to kick the ball away. On 3rd-and-25, teams often run or throw a short pass. They're not trying to score. They're trying to minimize mistakes so they can eventually get a W.

This guy clearly never looks at the bigger picture. The goal of any offense is always to score. The short term goal, might be to get 4 yards, or get the ball out of bounds, but I assure you the offensive coordinator only has one play that is called in hopes of it not going the distance and thats the kneel down.

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. If the ball is at the one, and it's third-and 19, a running play is usually called, and it's not intended to score. They just want to not turn it over, get a few yards and punt the ball. In fact, a drive beginning at the one is often called very conservatively. They wouldn't run three straight plays into the pile if they were trying to score. If a team has the ball and is up by seven with 1:45 left, and the other team has one timeout, the team with the ball doesn't care about scoring. They want to keep the ball and run out the clock. They'll run the ball, and as long as the back went down in bounds, it's a pretty good play. They'd like to get a first, but they're not going to throw it and they don't care about scoring.

Winning is more important than scoring, and more important than stats. The fact that we're even debating the truth of that shows how much things have changed. I submit that it is you who are not looking at the big picture-- getting the W.

 

[PatsFanCT]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

Yeah, I believe that was in the 4th quarter when the Packers were up 31-12 and Favre had just had his "running up the score" touchdown dropped in the end zone by Jennings.

 

[jscout]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.

Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.

I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

Contrary to popular belief, the goal of the offense is not to score on every drive. When it's 1st-and-10 from your own one...the goal is often to not do anything stupid and give your punter a chance to kick the ball away. On 3rd-and-25, teams often run or throw a short pass. They're not trying to score. They're trying to minimize mistakes so they can eventually get a W.

This guy clearly never looks at the bigger picture. The goal of any offense is always to score. The short term goal, might be to get 4 yards, or get the ball out of bounds, but I assure you the offensive coordinator only has one play that is called in hopes of it not going the distance and thats the kneel down.

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. If the ball is at the one, and it's third-and 19, a running play is usually called, and it's not intended to score. They just want to not turn it over, get a few yards and punt the ball. In fact, a drive beginning at the one is often called very conservatively. They wouldn't run three straight plays into the pile if they were trying to score. If a team has the ball and is up by seven with 1:45 left, and the other team has one timeout, the team with the ball doesn't care about scoring. They want to keep the ball and run out the clock. They'll run the ball, and as long as the back went down in bounds, it's a pretty good play. They'd like to get a first, but they're not going to throw it and they don't care about scoring.

Winning is more important than scoring, and more important than stats. The fact that we're even debating the truth of that shows how much things have changed. I submit that it is you who are not looking at the big picture-- getting the W.

Wrong. The goal of every drive IS to score. But, as the drive progresses, if it becomes evident that the goal of scoring may not be met and therefore failure of achieving the goal, then the purpose of the play calling turns to setting up (like punting or taking a safety) the next drive. And what is the goal of the next drive? TO SCORE! Just because the motivation for each play changes as the drive unfolds, the goal of the drive still the same...TO SCORE. Except, as Buddy pointed out, when taking a knee to end the game. Even when pinned on your own 1, your goal is to score. The purpose of the first play might be to create some breathing room to continue the drive, but the goal of the drive is to score.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.

Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.

I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

Contrary to popular belief, the goal of the offense is not to score on every drive. When it's 1st-and-10 from your own one...the goal is often to not do anything stupid and give your punter a chance to kick the ball away. On 3rd-and-25, teams often run or throw a short pass. They're not trying to score. They're trying to minimize mistakes so they can eventually get a W.

This guy clearly never looks at the bigger picture. The goal of any offense is always to score. The short term goal, might be to get 4 yards, or get the ball out of bounds, but I assure you the offensive coordinator only has one play that is called in hopes of it not going the distance and thats the kneel down.

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. If the ball is at the one, and it's third-and 19, a running play is usually called, and it's not intended to score. They just want to not turn it over, get a few yards and punt the ball. In fact, a drive beginning at the one is often called very conservatively. They wouldn't run three straight plays into the pile if they were trying to score. If a team has the ball and is up by seven with 1:45 left, and the other team has one timeout, the team with the ball doesn't care about scoring. They want to keep the ball and run out the clock. They'll run the ball, and as long as the back went down in bounds, it's a pretty good play. They'd like to get a first, but they're not going to throw it and they don't care about scoring.

Winning is more important than scoring, and more important than stats. The fact that we're even debating the truth of that shows how much things have changed. I submit that it is you who are not looking at the big picture-- getting the W.

Wrong. The goal of every drive IS to score. But, as the drive progresses, if it becomes evident that the goal of scoring may not be met and therefore failure of achieving the goal, then the purpose of the play calling turns to setting up (like punting or taking a safety) the next drive. And what is the goal of the next drive? TO SCORE! Just because the motivation for each play changes as the drive unfolds, the goal of the drive still the same...TO SCORE. Except, as Buddy pointed out, when taking a knee to end the game. Even when pinned on your own 1, your goal is to score. The purpose of the first play might be to create some breathing room to continue the drive, but the goal of the drive is to score.

Again, this is incorrect. When pinned at the one, teams often run the ball into the pile three times. What kind of scoring plan is that? You really think on 1st-and-10, 2nd-and 9 and 3rd-and-9 that a run into the pile is really trying to score? The defense has nine men in the box and they run anyway trying to score? That defies logic. When it's actually happened, it's such a fluke that it makes highlights because they weren't even trying to score. Also, I pointed out that a team with a lead and a couple of minutes left in the game isn't trying to score-- they're trying to run the clock out, make the opponent use their timeouts, maybe get a first down and win the game. They don't pass and they don't go out of bounds. In fact, we've all seen the RB go down before being tackled-- just so he stays in bounds. He's not trying to score. He's trying to run out the clock.

These are real-world examples of teams not even trying to score on a drive. That's because the goal is not to score on every drive. The goal is to win the game. If running out the clock helps you win the game, that's what you do. If falling down in bounds helps you win, that's what you do. The goal is to win the game. While it's true that scoring a lot will help you win, there are times in a game when the goal is not to score.

You've already admitted that during a drive the goal changes away from trying to score. Now you simply need to see that it also happens at the beginning of a drive. The examples I gave should suffice.

 

[thayman]

I found it funny today during the Packer game while the Pack was up pretty big and it was like 4th and goal from the 3. As Favre trots off the field for the FG unit the announcers actually said, "here's where the Pats would be going for it" and they all laughed about it.

Almost like it's becoming a joke now to everyone.

I still remember the outrage the first year that the NBA players could play in the Olympics and how they would run up the score there too and wow did people have a cow then. Times sure have changed...

Contrary to popular belief, the goal of the offense is not to score on every drive. When it's 1st-and-10 from your own one...the goal is often to not do anything stupid and give your punter a chance to kick the ball away. On 3rd-and-25, teams often run or throw a short pass. They're not trying to score. They're trying to minimize mistakes so they can eventually get a W.

This guy clearly never looks at the bigger picture. The goal of any offense is always to score. The short term goal, might be to get 4 yards, or get the ball out of bounds, but I assure you the offensive coordinator only has one play that is called in hopes of it not going the distance and thats the kneel down.

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. If the ball is at the one, and it's third-and 19, a running play is usually called, and it's not intended to score. They just want to not turn it over, get a few yards and punt the ball. In fact, a drive beginning at the one is often called very conservatively. They wouldn't run three straight plays into the pile if they were trying to score. If a team has the ball and is up by seven with 1:45 left, and the other team has one timeout, the team with the ball doesn't care about scoring. They want to keep the ball and run out the clock. They'll run the ball, and as long as the back went down in bounds, it's a pretty good play. They'd like to get a first, but they're not going to throw it and they don't care about scoring.

Winning is more important than scoring, and more important than stats. The fact that we're even debating the truth of that shows how much things have changed. I submit that it is you who are not looking at the big picture-- getting the W.

Wrong. The goal of every drive IS to score. But, as the drive progresses, if it becomes evident that the goal of scoring may not be met and therefore failure of achieving the goal, then the purpose of the play calling turns to setting up (like punting or taking a safety) the next drive. And what is the goal of the next drive? TO SCORE! Just because the motivation for each play changes as the drive unfolds, the goal of the drive still the same...TO SCORE. Except, as Buddy pointed out, when taking a knee to end the game. Even when pinned on your own 1, your goal is to score. The purpose of the first play might be to create some breathing room to continue the drive, but the goal of the drive is to score.

Again, this is incorrect. When pinned at the one, teams often run the ball into the pile three times. What kind of scoring plan is that? You really think on 1st-and-10, 2nd-and 9 and 3rd-and-9 that a run into the pile is really trying to score? The defense has nine men in the box and they run anyway trying to score? That defies logic. When it's actually happened, it's such a fluke that it makes highlights because they weren't even trying to score. Also, I pointed out that a team with a lead and a couple of minutes left in the game isn't trying to score-- they're trying to run the clock out, make the opponent use their timeouts, maybe get a first down and win the game. They don't pass and they don't go out of bounds. In fact, we've all seen the RB go down before being tackled-- just so he stays in bounds. He's not trying to score. He's trying to run out the clock.

These are real-world examples of teams not even trying to score on a drive. That's because the goal is not to score on every drive. The goal is to win the game. If running out the clock helps you win the game, that's what you do. If falling down in bounds helps you win, that's what you do. The goal is to win the game. While it's true that scoring a lot will help you win, there are times in a game when the goal is not to score.

You've already admitted that during a drive the goal changes away from trying to score. Now you simply need to see that it also happens at the beginning of a drive. The examples I gave should suffice.

It may be best just to say that the purpose of each Offensive Series is to get a first down.

 

[jscout]

When pinned on their own goalline and a team runs three straight times, it isn't just so they can create room to punt. The reason they run is because there's less risk of a turnover. On those runs, the line is still trying to create holes for the RB. The only legit example of not scoring is running out the clock to preserve the win. And that is along the lines of taking a knee. Although while running out the clock, if the ability to score presents itself, the offense takes it.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

When pinned on their own goalline and a team runs three straight times, it isn't just so they can create room to punt. The reason they run is because there's less risk of a turnover. On those runs, the line is still trying to create holes for the RB. The only legit example of not scoring is running out the clock to preserve the win. And that is along the lines of taking a knee. Although while running out the clock, if the ability to score presents itself, the offense takes it.

That last part is true, but I disagree with the first part. On their own one-yard-line, it's true that they definitely don't want to turn the ball over. They know that running into a pile isn't going to score, but they do it anyway. Why? Because they'd rather create a little space for the punter and not give up easy points. Now, if they get a first down, great. But when the defense is stacking the line, and the first two downs got you one yard, the only reason you run it again is because you want to punt the ball and not turn it over. They aren't trying to "fool" the defense. That decision won't score points, but it might help you win the game later. I also disagree that running out the clock is like taking a knee. They want to get a first down if they can, so they don't take a knee. But they aren't worried about scoring at all. They won't throw the ball, even if the receivers are left in single coverage and the safety has cheated up. The coordinators can see that happening and they'll still run the ball. Why? They'd like a first down, but it's imperative that they keep the clock moving. If a huge hole is there, they'll take it but the goal is to stay in bounds and work the clock. If the Cowboys were in that situation and Owens was one-on-one with a rookie and no safety help...they'd still hand it off to Barber. It doesn't make sense to put the ball in the air and risk stopping the clock.

The offense's jobs are to not turn it over and keep the ball if they can. The goal isn't to score; it's to win.

 

[Liquid Tension]

As long as the NFL rewards teams for scoring more points than their competition (in terms of tie breakers) then there is nothing wrong with running up the score.

i don't like NE but this argument is fruitless