David Yudkin
Footballguy
I don't particulary feel that one is any better or worse receiving wise, but statisctically I think Owens' numbers would have suffered playing for the Raiders.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Jerry Rice vs. Randy Moss (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter dgreen
- Start date
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
Ask me this question in another week from now, about how Big Moss is in big games.TO played great, with a broken leg. No question. If McNabb was in shape maybe just maybe they would have won.
FUBAR
Footballguy
When you say "winning a SB", do you mean as starter or does Drew Bledsoe (and probably others) get credit here?Let's make it easier and remove the S.B. MVP requirement. Winning a Super Bowl is a requirement, though (in fact, pre-Rice, Montana won TWO Super Bowls - '81/'84, so I think two S.B. appearances is a minimum with one win).The first limiting factor has to be SB MVP.
I can't seem to format this properly, so a link
There's only 16, how many of these had the other stats?
All-Pro 3x:
Montana, Starr, Namath, Bradshaw, Staubach, Dawson, Elway, Young, and Peyton. That's 9.
Warner was only all-pro 2x, Rypien, Brady and Simms 1x, Williams and Plunkett never.
Seems most of those 9 led the league in TD passes at least once, I am guessing (too lazy to look) the top 4 and top 8 stats are also there.
Sorry, can't do 10. Only 9 with Desi over Favre in XXXI, we'll have to wait until Brady plays a few more years.
He did say "a lot of decent to good" QBs, these 10 are among the best to ever play the position. Aside from Marino's absence of a SB win, Brady's lack of all-pro appearances so far, and Favre, these are probably 10 of the best 13 QBs ever.
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
Bernie Kosar, yes it wont get out of control.When you say "winning a SB", do you mean as starter or does Drew Bledsoe (and probably others) get credit here?Let's make it easier and remove the S.B. MVP requirement. Winning a Super Bowl is a requirement, though (in fact, pre-Rice, Montana won TWO Super Bowls - '81/'84, so I think two S.B. appearances is a minimum with one win).
I can't seem to format this properly, so a link
There's only 16, how many of these had the other stats?
All-Pro 3x:
Montana, Starr, Namath, Bradshaw, Staubach, Dawson, Elway, Young, and Peyton. That's 9.
Warner was only all-pro 2x, Rypien, Brady and Simms 1x, Williams and Plunkett never.
Seems most of those 9 led the league in TD passes at least once, I am guessing (too lazy to look) the top 4 and top 8 stats are also there.
Sorry, can't do 10. Only 9 with Desi over Favre in XXXI, we'll have to wait until Brady plays a few more years.
He did say "a lot of decent to good" QBs, these 10 are among the best to ever play the position. Aside from Marino's absence of a SB win, Brady's lack of all-pro appearances so far, and Favre, these are probably 10 of the best 13 QBs ever.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Did Moss put up incredible numbers with questionable QBs in Oakland? I'll answer that for you: NO. Heck, Moss isn't even the best WR of his generation; Marvin Harrison is.jurb26 said:
FUBAR
Footballguy
That would be easier to compare if Marvin had more than 2 years without Peyton. Marvin has 2 years and 1800 yards, on Moss, Moss has 1 more TD, they have about the same Y/G (79.2/79.7), Moss has two more yards per reception. Marvin's only led the league once in TDs, Moss has 4 times. Marvin's led twice in receptions and yards, Moss never has. Moss had a 1,000 yard year in Oakland, best Marvin did without Peyton was 866. not sure that means anything, but I'm just stating how difficult that comparison is. I suspect though it can't be proven, you give Moss Peyton Manning for 10 years and he owns the leader board.
The turn of the century 49ers teams were probably better than Moss' raiders, but not a whole lot, and Owens did plenty of damage there (1450/13 in 14 games for the 6-10 2000 team). Without Owens, those Niners teams may have been as bad or worse (than the Moss-led Raiders)
Tau837
Footballguy
I was going to ask the same thing. Also note that Montana compiled these accomplishments in his first 6 years in the NFL, so please limit your choices to guys who have done it within that timeframe.
John Maddens Lunchbox
Footballguy
1998 - QB - Randall Cunningham - Not long from being out of football to going to the pro bowl and being the Comeback player of the year. Did nothing after this year1999 - QB - Jeff George - At his 4th franchise, a problem elsewhere, he throws for 23 TDs' in 10 starts. Did nothing after this2000 - 2004 QB - Daunte Culpepper - 3 Pro Bowls with Moss. What's he done since?Then come the Oakland years.2007 - QB - Tom Brady - Moss finally gets a QB equivalent to that of Rice and Manning and look how he does?Moss had QB's who aren't going to get near the hall of fame passing to him. Rice had Montana and Young BOTH in the hall of fame. Harrison has Manning who is Hall of Fame bound.
Tau837
Footballguy
So of your estimated 9 QBs, how many did all of these things in their first 6 seasons in the NFL?The first limiting factor has to be SB MVP.
I can't seem to format this properly, so a link
There's only 16, how many of these had the other stats?
All-Pro 3x:
Montana, Starr, Namath, Bradshaw, Staubach, Dawson, Elway, Young, and Peyton. That's 9.
Warner was only all-pro 2x, Rypien, Brady and Simms 1x, Williams and Plunkett never.
Seems most of those 9 led the league in TD passes at least once, I am guessing (too lazy to look) the top 4 and top 8 stats are also there.
Sorry, can't do 10. Only 9 with Desi over Favre in XXXI, we'll have to wait until Brady plays a few more years.
He did say "a lot of decent to good" QBs, these 10 are among the best to ever play the position. Aside from Marino's absence of a SB win, Brady's lack of all-pro appearances so far, and Favre, these are probably 10 of the best 13 QBs ever.
Tau837
Footballguy
Not technically... he has not been All Pro 3 times.Add Tom Brady, right?Dan Marino,
Tau837
Footballguy
Good point. I corrected my first post.
"Decent to good" QBs was a poor statement. I immediately thought of mediocre people like Dilfer and Brad Johnson, or Larry Brown and Deion Branch (guys who've produced some of the stats mentioned), thought the thing about "4 times in the top 8" looked totally contrived, was distracted, and made a stupid comment. I personally think the West Coast offense is more responsible for Montana's early greatness than it gets credit for (not that Bill Walsh's genius doesn't get credit, just not enough credit IMO). That offense set the league on fire, to the point where it was being copied and copied even throughout the 90's. It was like the end of "The Last Samurai," when those poor Samurai warriors go out to fight and get introduced to something called a "machine gun."So of your estimated 9 QBs, how many did all of these things in their first 6 seasons in the NFL?The first limiting factor has to be SB MVP.
I can't seem to format this properly, so a link
There's only 16, how many of these had the other stats?
All-Pro 3x:
Montana, Starr, Namath, Bradshaw, Staubach, Dawson, Elway, Young, and Peyton. That's 9.
Warner was only all-pro 2x, Rypien, Brady and Simms 1x, Williams and Plunkett never.
Seems most of those 9 led the league in TD passes at least once, I am guessing (too lazy to look) the top 4 and top 8 stats are also there.
Sorry, can't do 10. Only 9 with Desi over Favre in XXXI, we'll have to wait until Brady plays a few more years.
He did say "a lot of decent to good" QBs, these 10 are among the best to ever play the position. Aside from Marino's absence of a SB win, Brady's lack of all-pro appearances so far, and Favre, these are probably 10 of the best 13 QBs ever.
Anyway, the point of my original post was that Jerry Rice is worlds above any WR past or present, including Randy Moss (that's still the topic of this thread, right?)
Last edited by a moderator:
Tau837
Footballguy
Yes, it is the topic, and I agree Rice is the best hands down. That is so obvious to me that it was easy to get distracted on another topic...
FUBAR
Footballguy
So of your estimated 9 QBs, how many did all of these things in their first 6 seasons in the NFL?
I can't seem to format this properly, so a link
There's only 16, how many of these had the other stats?
All-Pro 3x:
Montana, Starr, Namath, Bradshaw, Staubach, Dawson, Elway, Young, and Peyton. That's 9.
Warner was only all-pro 2x, Rypien, Brady and Simms 1x, Williams and Plunkett never.
Seems most of those 9 led the league in TD passes at least once, I am guessing (too lazy to look) the top 4 and top 8 stats are also there.
Sorry, can't do 10. Only 9 with Desi over Favre in XXXI, we'll have to wait until Brady plays a few more years.
He did say "a lot of decent to good" QBs, these 10 are among the best to ever play the position. Aside from Marino's absence of a SB win, Brady's lack of all-pro appearances so far, and Favre, these are probably 10 of the best 13 QBs ever.
Don't know, don't care. I didn't realize that was one of the criteria.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
The 2006 Raiders offense was NOT EVEN CLOSE to as effective as that of the 49ers . . .The year you referenced (2000), SF still had Rice to go along with Garcia and Charlie Garner. In 2001, Garrison Hearst returned to have a solid seasons (and start the Hearst/Barlow tandem) and the team went 12-4.That nucleus returned to make the playoffs in 2002.By 2003, the team overall was not as successful, Owens and Garcia did not get along, and the team receord took a turn for the worst.2000 SF 6040/472001 SF 5689/482002 SF 5701/392003 SF 5687/41Compare those total offense/offensive TD totals to . . .2006 OAK 3939/12thecatch said:
2005 OAK wasn't historically bad by any stretch of the imagination and he still had a medicore year, at best (at least in relation to the other WR we are talking about here)Do you really think that Owens puts up the same 05-06 numbers if he played in OAK that Moss did? You think Moss would have done better in SF with Garcia than Owens did? I realize that wasn't directly the point you were trying to make, but IMO Owens does a lot more for Oakland in that period than Moss did.
Last edited by a moderator:
David Yudkin
Footballguy
All I'm saying is you could have put one (and only one) hall of famer at a skill position on that Oakland offense in 2006 and he would have put up a fraction of his usual output.
DY,C'mon man. Moss QUIT on the Raiders, he played well for half his first season then BAILED OUT when he didn't like the team.So his bad numbers were HIS fault in year 2. The Raiders offense was pathetic, but he WAS effective (if I recall the best YPC) his first season in Oakland while playing; before the hip injury.Oakland was his fault and the team as well. So to say he suffered because of his time in Oakland is partially right only.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
the gap is very simple:
randy moss has more talent, but rice had:
1-joe montana
2-steve young
3-better conditioning
randy moss has more talent, but rice had:
1-joe montana
2-steve young
3-better conditioning
i personally don't think moss is anywhere nearly good enough to be considered in the same echelon as rice. i will grant that he had an explosive first few years in the league and a monster year this year. but rice had the better hands, ran better routes, played more consisitently for a longer period of time, was a winner, was a better teammate and played a complete game.
Looked at a slightly different way (data from pro-football-reference):
Rice (1st 6 seasons):
Receiving yds - 7,866
Receiving TDs - 79
Rushing yds - 289
Rushing TDs - 4
Total yds - 8,155
Total TDs - 83
Moss (1st 6 seasons):
Receiving yds - 8,375
Receiving TDs - 77
Rushing yds - 159
Rushing TDs - 0
Total yds - 8,534
Total TDs - 77
Rice (career through age 30):
Receiving yds - 10,273
Receiving TDs - 103
Rushing yds - 349
Rushing TDs - 5
Total yds - 10,622
Total TDs - 108
Moss (career through age 30):
Receiving yds - 12,193
Receiving TDs - 124
Rushing yds - 159
Rushing TDs - 0
Total yds - 12,352
Total TDs - 124
Total fantasy pts (FBG scoring):
Rice (1st 6 seasons) - 1,313.5
Moss (1st 6 seasons) - 1,315.4
Rice (career through age 30) - 1,710.2
Moss (career through age 30) - 1,979.2
Rice had an incredibly productive career after age 30. Moss turns 31 on February 13th. At this age, he's significantly ahead of Rice -- mainly because he started his pro career at an earlier age than Rice.
Rice (1st 6 seasons):
Receiving yds - 7,866
Receiving TDs - 79
Rushing yds - 289
Rushing TDs - 4
Total yds - 8,155
Total TDs - 83
Moss (1st 6 seasons):
Receiving yds - 8,375
Receiving TDs - 77
Rushing yds - 159
Rushing TDs - 0
Total yds - 8,534
Total TDs - 77
Rice (career through age 30):
Receiving yds - 10,273
Receiving TDs - 103
Rushing yds - 349
Rushing TDs - 5
Total yds - 10,622
Total TDs - 108
Moss (career through age 30):
Receiving yds - 12,193
Receiving TDs - 124
Rushing yds - 159
Rushing TDs - 0
Total yds - 12,352
Total TDs - 124
Total fantasy pts (FBG scoring):
Rice (1st 6 seasons) - 1,313.5
Moss (1st 6 seasons) - 1,315.4
Rice (career through age 30) - 1,710.2
Moss (career through age 30) - 1,979.2
Rice had an incredibly productive career after age 30. Moss turns 31 on February 13th. At this age, he's significantly ahead of Rice -- mainly because he started his pro career at an earlier age than Rice.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
You are giving me credit for comments I did not make. All I said was that TO would not have 1400/14 playing on the 2006 Raiders. That has NOTHING to do with Randy Moss and suggesting that Moss went all out for that team (when he clearly did not). I concur that Moss dogged it his second year on the Raiders. And Owend would have done better than Moss did. But IMO Owens would not have come close to the numbers we have grown accustomed to him producing for high octane offenses like the Cowboys, Eagles, or Niners.
Tau837
Footballguy
There are two minor things that affect all comparisons that are age or seasons based in Moss's favor:1. Rice only started 4 games as a rookie. He joined a team that won the Super Bowl the year before, and it took him some time to crack the lineup. I suppose one could argue that the fact Moss didn't have to wait is deservedly an edge to Moss. But if our goal is to determine how they compare to each other, IMO it is somewhat misleading.2. Rice played in a strike season in his third season. So he played only 12 games (of a possible 12) in 1987. So through no fault of his own, Rice played 92 regular season games in his first 6 seasons, compared to Moss's 96. It is a small difference, but it makes their total yardage per game in their first 6 seasons virtually identical, as opposed to there being a gap as it appears in your post.In addition to that, consider their postseason performances from their first 6 seasons:Rice - 50/847/11 in 9 gamesMoss - 28/602/7 in 6 gamesBoth played extremely well, but Rice had more signature postseason moments, playing well in two Super Bowl victories and winning one Super Bowl MVP.Honors from their first 6 seasons:Rice - 1 MVP; 1 Super Bowl MVP; 5 All Pro selections; 5 Pro BowlsMoss - 4 All Pro selections; 5 Pro BowlsAll in all, I think looking just at compiled statistics makes Moss look more favorably comparable to Rice than he really has been. I doubt it will matter, since I doubt Moss will come close to Rice over the second decade of their careers, so the compiled statistics will still favor Rice in the end, as do the other measures.
BaBastage
Footballguy
The gap is pretty clear if you graph it out.
Look at this thread I posted back in August. (Compares Rice, Moss, Harrison, and Owens over the years' played.)
As Yudkin pointed out in his other thread, Moss would have to play a long time at a high level to catch up.
That said, Jerry's records will not last forever. Improvements in medicine / health / injury rehabilitation are going to mean that players are going to have longer careers. And that's what it's going to take for Jerry's Records to fall.
Look at this thread I posted back in August. (Compares Rice, Moss, Harrison, and Owens over the years' played.)
As Yudkin pointed out in his other thread, Moss would have to play a long time at a high level to catch up.
That said, Jerry's records will not last forever. Improvements in medicine / health / injury rehabilitation are going to mean that players are going to have longer careers. And that's what it's going to take for Jerry's Records to fall.
Agree with all your points. And I find it difficult to argue that anyone will surpass Jerry Rice as the best WR all-time.Given that, however, I think you can make a longshot case for Moss:1. With Brady and the Pats, I think Moss has the best possible situation for the foreseeable future. The fact that season TD records were set by Brady for QBs and Moss for WRs in their 1st season together is not an accident.2. Moss is one of the most talented WRs to ever play the game. His first couple seasons were the best all-time. This past season is arguably one of the top 2 best seasons ever for a WR.3. The major problems for Moss in the past were (1) motivation and (2) playing for a sub-par team. The Pats are an excellent team, and Brady is a superb QB who seems to click with Moss. Regarding motivation, I think Moss still has a big chip on his shoulder.4. Who knows how important his place in history is to Moss? Before this season I would have put it as pretty low. But if he gets a Super Bowl ring, his perspective may change, and he may get motivated and decide to play as long as Brady plays. If so, what is his upside? How about 7 more seasons averaging 1400 yds and 20 TDs? He would only be 37 years old. That would give Moss career stats of 22,152 yds and 164 TDs. IMO the odds of that happening are low, but it's not out of the question.Just Win Baby said:
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Averaging 20 TD per season for 7 seasons a WR is just crazy talk when you consider that there have now been two instances where a WR has hit the 20 TD mark.
Yes, it's not at all out of the question that a WR would average 20 TDs over a 7 year period on the back end of their career.
Tau837
Footballguy
:( This was the thing that jumped out at me from Driver's post. I think saying the probability of this is low is charitable, unless low means 0.001%.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Yeah after his 2007 season, I can see how no one would want Moss on their team.And what you're doing is...?I'll hang up and listen.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
lol @ all the contortions people went through to justify Moss not being a future HOFer.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's because teams don't break the scoring record every year.Well, if Moss was so great, why did the Minn Vikings output in 1999, Moss 2nd year, drop so dramatically? The Vikings points by year:1997 - 354 - before Moss arrived1998 - 5561999 - 399 So, if Moss is so great, why did the Vikings scoring fall by 150+ points in his second year? Was he great in his first year, but not great in his second? If you are going to make the point that he was the sole/main reason their points shot up, why did they go down in his 2nd year? He and Cris Carter played ever game, so injuries weren't a cause.Oh. You're right. Moss had nothing to do with those two teams scoring so many points. Forget looking at the difference from the year before for both teams. He's just a minor contributor. No more impact than a Luc Longley type guy.
Phlash
Footballguy
No offense, but this is why you're not an NFL GM.
SR388
Footballguy
I meant all time. And I didn't take offense to it at all. Who in this thread is a NFL GM?
Guys are all nuts.
Pure talent and gifts MOSS NO QUESTION.
Pure numbers because of quaterbaqcking and overall offense RICE NO QUESTION
Best overall wide recicer of ALL TIME in spite of 14 differant quaterbacks over career and early partying issues
CRIS CARTER
I have seen almost every single game of moss and carter and a lot of rice as well going back to 85 when he was a rookie.
Nobody and i mean nobody could catch a ball like Carter could .He may not have caught as many tds but if you know anything about football and realize that adjusting to 14 qb's over his career makes all the differance in the world.Most of those backs were past prime as well.
Carter has a catch higlights that no other recievers could make.
Pure talent and gifts MOSS NO QUESTION.
Pure numbers because of quaterbaqcking and overall offense RICE NO QUESTION
Best overall wide recicer of ALL TIME in spite of 14 differant quaterbacks over career and early partying issues
CRIS CARTER
I have seen almost every single game of moss and carter and a lot of rice as well going back to 85 when he was a rookie.
Nobody and i mean nobody could catch a ball like Carter could .He may not have caught as many tds but if you know anything about football and realize that adjusting to 14 qb's over his career makes all the differance in the world.Most of those backs were past prime as well.
Carter has a catch higlights that no other recievers could make.
stewartcjae
Footballguy
OK rice is better, but you cant just ignore his first 3 years because you think he was the 2nd WR on the team.2000 77 1,437 15 1999 80 1,413 11 1998 69 1,313 17Dam good numbers, more yards and TD's then the "#1" on the team.I agree, as a WR, Rice is better then Moss. But Moss is a HOF no question. You cant not just ignore 3 great years.
Wildman
Footballguy
Name stats all you want, but I'll take Jerry Rice every time over Randy Moss and I'm a huge fan of what Moss can do. Moss is the best athlete to ever play at a high level as a receiver. Rice is the best technically proficient receiver, period. This isn't taking away from the fact Moss is a smart receiver and understand the game extremely well or from the fact that Rice made himself into a great athlete in unbelievable condition.
Still, if I had to pick one for my NFL franchise or my fantasy franchise Rice is it, no contest.
Still, if I had to pick one for my NFL franchise or my fantasy franchise Rice is it, no contest.
