Jets fans divided (1 Viewer)

[pjconley]

I've noticed a trend that has been going on amongst Jets fans these past two seasons. It seems lately there are two types of fans. There are the Chad Supporters and then there are those calling for the Clemens Revolution.

If there's one thing I hate hearing, it's "Chad dosen't have an arm". When people say that, I feel like they're just completly ignorant to how our offense works. Laverneous Coles said it best during an interview with the Post last year in the middle of the teams struggles, "The people who criticize Chad don't know the game of football.".

The philosophy of our offense is to use short, safe passing routes and balance these with a strong running game. This is where people usually say, well we do that because of Chad's arm strength. No that's not why. The object is to control the ball for long periods of time and march methodically down the field.

With a good offensive line, Chad's intellegence and precision helps him flourish in this system.

 

[Bri]

I've noticed a trend that has been going on amongst Jets fans these past two seasons. It seems lately there are two types of fans. There are the Chad Supporters and then there are those calling for the Clemens Revolution.

If there's one thing I hate hearing, it's "Chad dosen't have an arm". When people say that, I feel like they're just completly ignorant to how our offense works. Laverneous Coles said it best during an interview with the Post last year in the middle of the teams struggles, "The people who criticize Chad don't know the game of football.".

The philosophy of our offense is to use short, safe passing routes and balance these with a strong running game. This is where people usually say, well we do that because of Chad's arm strength. No that's not why. The object is to control the ball for long periods of time and march methodically down the field.

With a good offensive line, Chad's intellegence and precision helps him flourish in this system.

I've always been impressed with Chad's accuracy. However, when he's in there lately it seems like the homerun threats are minimized. Granted Cotchery has been mentorred by Coles, but some weeks he looks like Coles II with a zillion short quick routes and little else.

I've seen Chad throw deeper than people seem to expect and all but it does seem like a short field when he's in. IMO That's on Mangini, I didn't feel that way before. I figure it's easier to play D if it's only a once in a long while deep pass.

Coles is probably the best WR at getting to a spot in a zone. That should open some things up but it doesn't seem to.

Not using Leon as often as fans wanted didn't help the Os perception.

The Jets have all these guys that could be sparks to that offense but it's pretty vanilla. I think fans just want some pep to it.

 

[zamboni]

It all boils down to winning.

When the team made their unexpected playoff run two years ago (and in past years), you didn't hear too many complaints about Chad's arm. If anything, the local beat writers were often saying how much more zip he had on the ball.

After they fell apart last year, all of a sudden it's Chad's arm again. As always, the QB gets too much blame when the team is playing badly, and probably too much credit when it's playing well.

With a presumably much better OL this year, this Jets homer feels a lot more comfortable with Chad back there than Clemens.

 

[Reaper]

The majority were ok with Chad until he started making DUMB mistakes.

If you have his arm you better close out games and make the plays... Uncharacteristically Chad threw a bunch of horrible Picks to seal losses last year and if the Jets fall behind at all, it's tough for Chad to make a come back....

I don't love either option but, with the seemingly improved Defense, line play /running game and TE weapon, let the QB battle begin.

It was tough to judge either QB last year so, hopefully Chad comes back stronger and Clemens comes back with a light bulb lit in his head and they both play well when called upon.

 

[TLEF316]

The majority were ok with Chad until he started making DUMB mistakes.If you have his arm you better close out games and make the plays... Uncharacteristically Chad threw a bunch of horrible Picks to seal losses last year and if the Jets fall behind at all, it's tough for Chad to make a come back....I don't love either option but, with the seemingly improved Defense, line play /running game and TE weapon, let the QB battle begin. It was tough to judge either QB last year so, hopefully Chad comes back stronger and Clemens comes back with a light bulb lit in his head and they both play well when called upon.

I had zero problem with Chad when he first started playing. We all knew his arm was weak, but he made teriffic adjustments and great decisions. He didnt throw a red-zone pick for like 5 years. Last year was an entirely diferent story. He looked down his recivers for what seemed like hours. He threw lame duck out routes at very inopportune times that cost us games. The giants game last year was a perfect example. At one point, the jets are driving. They get a first down at like the giants 12 yard line. Chad then proceeds to throw a lob pass, off his back foot, into a double team, on first down, while we have the lead. The giants pick it off and all the momentum goes out the door.I'm for Clemens at this point, because at least he has upside. It isnt fair to judge him on last year. He had no line and few healthy weapons. Chad has shown his absolute upside, and IMO, he can't even get there anymore. His arm is worse than ever and now he is making bone head throws. He gets coles killed on a regular basis, and the last thing i want to see is him getting Cotchery and Keller laid out going over the middle for one of his lolly pops.

 

[PatrickT]

I've noticed a trend that has been going on amongst Jets fans these past two seasons. It seems lately there are two types of fans. There are the Chad Supporters and then there are those calling for the Clemens Revolution.

If there's one thing I hate hearing, it's "Chad dosen't have an arm". When people say that, I feel like they're just completly ignorant to how our offense works. Laverneous Coles said it best during an interview with the Post last year in the middle of the teams struggles, "The people who criticize Chad don't know the game of football.".

The philosophy of our offense is to use short, safe passing routes and balance these with a strong running game. This is where people usually say, well we do that because of Chad's arm strength. No that's not why. The object is to control the ball for long periods of time and march methodically down the field.

With a good offensive line, Chad's intellegence and precision helps him flourish in this system.

I lived through Vick/Schaub. You got nuttin' on me. :(

 

[pjconley]

The majority were ok with Chad until he started making DUMB mistakes.

If you have his arm you better close out games and make the plays... Uncharacteristically Chad threw a bunch of horrible Picks to seal losses last year and if the Jets fall behind at all, it's tough for Chad to make a come back....

I don't love either option but, with the seemingly improved Defense, line play /running game and TE weapon, let the QB battle begin.

It was tough to judge either QB last year so, hopefully Chad comes back stronger and Clemens comes back with a light bulb lit in his head and they both play well when called upon.

:( I had zero problem with Chad when he first started playing. We all knew his arm was weak, but he made teriffic adjustments and great decisions. He didnt throw a red-zone pick for like 5 years.

Last year was an entirely diferent story. He looked down his recivers for what seemed like hours. He threw lame duck out routes at very inopportune times that cost us games. The giants game last year was a perfect example. At one point, the jets are driving. They get a first down at like the giants 12 yard line. Chad then proceeds to throw a lob pass, off his back foot, into a double team, on first down, while we have the lead. The giants pick it off and all the momentum goes out the door.

I'm for Clemens at this point, because at least he has upside. It isnt fair to judge him on last year. He had no line and few healthy weapons. Chad has shown his absolute upside, and IMO, he can't even get there anymore. His arm is worse than ever and now he is making bone head throws. He gets coles killed on a regular basis, and the last thing i want to see is him getting Cotchery and Keller laid out going over the middle for one of his lolly pops.

So many people do this. They say how horrible Chad did, but when it comes to Clemens, they bring unfair assesment due to O line troubles. Chad was behind that same patchy line as Kellen, so he too should get the benefit of the doubt. A big part of the reason why Chad struggled was because of the weak offensive line last season. Look at the season before, he won comeback player of the year.

 

[zamboni]

The majority were ok with Chad until he started making DUMB mistakes.If you have his arm you better close out games and make the plays... Uncharacteristically Chad threw a bunch of horrible Picks to seal losses last year and if the Jets fall behind at all, it's tough for Chad to make a come back....

Fair point, Reaper. It wasn't his arm strength that did him in last year - it was the uncharacteristic poor decision-making he made at times. Hopefully, he'll have more time to throw this year and we'll see if he can get back to cutting down on the turnovers/bad throws.

 

[TLEF316]

The majority were ok with Chad until he started making DUMB mistakes.

If you have his arm you better close out games and make the plays... Uncharacteristically Chad threw a bunch of horrible Picks to seal losses last year and if the Jets fall behind at all, it's tough for Chad to make a come back....

I don't love either option but, with the seemingly improved Defense, line play /running game and TE weapon, let the QB battle begin.

It was tough to judge either QB last year so, hopefully Chad comes back stronger and Clemens comes back with a light bulb lit in his head and they both play well when called upon.

:( I had zero problem with Chad when he first started playing. We all knew his arm was weak, but he made teriffic adjustments and great decisions. He didnt throw a red-zone pick for like 5 years.

Last year was an entirely diferent story. He looked down his recivers for what seemed like hours. He threw lame duck out routes at very inopportune times that cost us games. The giants game last year was a perfect example. At one point, the jets are driving. They get a first down at like the giants 12 yard line. Chad then proceeds to throw a lob pass, off his back foot, into a double team, on first down, while we have the lead. The giants pick it off and all the momentum goes out the door.

I'm for Clemens at this point, because at least he has upside. It isnt fair to judge him on last year. He had no line and few healthy weapons. Chad has shown his absolute upside, and IMO, he can't even get there anymore. His arm is worse than ever and now he is making bone head throws. He gets coles killed on a regular basis, and the last thing i want to see is him getting Cotchery and Keller laid out going over the middle for one of his lolly pops.

So many people do this. They say how horrible Chad did, but when it comes to Clemens, they bring unfair assesment due to O line troubles. Chad was behind that same patchy line as Kellen, so he too should get the benefit of the doubt. A big part of the reason why Chad struggled was because of the weak offensive line last season. Look at the season before, he won comeback player of the year.

A majority of Chad's bad throws were not made while he was under pressure. They were just terrible throws and terrible decisions. His troubles came from staring down out sideline routes like Rich Gannon in the super bowl. He gets a partial pass, but not a full one (nor does Clemens)

 

[Reaper]

His arm is worse than ever and now he is making bone head throws. He gets coles killed on a regular basis, and the last thing i want to see is him getting Cotchery and Keller laid out going over the middle for one of his lolly pops.

GOOD POINT....

That's the part we often forget when remembering "good Chad"......

Last year especially - In all the talk the Chad fans want to bring to the table this might be something we want to put up at the top of the list.....

 

[Boston]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

 

[Two Deep]

The majority were ok with Chad until he started making DUMB mistakes.

If you have his arm you better close out games and make the plays... Uncharacteristically Chad threw a bunch of horrible Picks to seal losses last year and if the Jets fall behind at all, it's tough for Chad to make a come back....

I don't love either option but, with the seemingly improved Defense, line play /running game and TE weapon, let the QB battle begin.

It was tough to judge either QB last year so, hopefully Chad comes back stronger and Clemens comes back with a light bulb lit in his head and they both play well when called upon.

I had zero problem with Chad when he first started playing. We all knew his arm was weak, but he made teriffic adjustments and great decisions. He didnt throw a red-zone pick for like 5 years.

Last year was an entirely diferent story. He looked down his recivers for what seemed like hours. He threw lame duck out routes at very inopportune times that cost us games. The giants game last year was a perfect example. At one point, the jets are driving. They get a first down at like the giants 12 yard line. Chad then proceeds to throw a lob pass, off his back foot, into a double team, on first down, while we have the lead. The giants pick it off and all the momentum goes out the door.

I'm for Clemens at this point, because at least he has upside. It isnt fair to judge him on last year. He had no line and few healthy weapons. Chad has shown his absolute upside, and IMO, he can't even get there anymore. His arm is worse than ever and now he is making bone head throws. He gets coles killed on a regular basis, and the last thing i want to see is him getting Cotchery and Keller laid out going over the middle for one of his lolly pops.

This is correct. With Pennington you got what you got. Start the kid another year and see if he improves the position.

 

[redman]

I'm an outsider with absolutely no stake in this - not a Pennington owner, not a Clemens owner, I don't even have a Jets offensive player on any of my dynasty teams. While I'm not necessarily an authority on all things Jets, my impression here is that this is the classic case of a steady, popular player with limited upside becoming entrenched in fans' minds in the position, so much so that they don't see his shortcomings.

Chad's ability to hit targets more than 15 yards past the line of scrimmage is limited, not because he can't get the ball there, but because it hangs in the air too long. This is one of the big differences between college and the pros - you can get away with that in college, but in the pros it goes from being a big play for the offense to, quite often, a big play for the defense. Chad's worthless on the deep out, a staple NFL throw. With less field to cover, the defense has the luxury of playing the SS up all the time and blitzing more. Maybe Chad's solid reads will help him defeat the blitz and find a weak spot on the field, but that doesn't change the fact that he's starting in a hole all the time.

The argument that the Jets like to run a ball control offense misses the point. The Giants liked to do that under Phil Simms too, but unlike Penny, Simms had an arm that could hurt you downfield if your defense got too nosy near the line of scrimmage. The mere threat of the deep pass and big play is often the most valuable part of the QB's arm strength. Without that, you're running your offense inside a 15-20 yard box on every play, regardless of field position, and you're going to be limited.

To me, you have to go with Clemens to either have him as your long term starter or to rule him out in that regard. As someone else said, Pennington is what he is at this point - he's a known quantity. You won't win a championship with him, and even winning a playoff game will be a challenge. He'd make a good backup QB who can enter games when the starter goes down and exploit a game plan designed around another QB's traits; he can even win the occasional start for you. As we've seen elsewhere, there's a valuable role for guys like Koy Detmer or AJ Feeley as backups, but they get into trouble when they're the starters for anything more than short stretches of time.

 

[Sweet Love]

Jets fan here...and maybe a bit of a Penny apologist. I think the Jets are in a position this year where they HAVE to try to win now. The Pats will not be the Pats of 07, but they will still be a 13 win team, which means they have to beat out Miami and Buffalo for a spot in the playoffs most likely. I think that they are a hair better on paper than Buffalo now, and better than Miami too, but in 09, that could drastically change. Parcells will need a year to get that ship righted and while Buffalo is good, I don't think they are any better (on paper again) than they were last year. The Jets have added many impact players to their roster and while they may have a window for a few years, the rest of the AFC East will be getting better too. Why I state this is because I think over the next five years, 08 will be their best (not only, but best) opportunity to make some noise. Penny can manage a team just as good as a Dilfer/Brad Johnson-type and I would like to see him get a chance early in the year. If they open at 3-3, I have no issue with Clemens coming in, but I would hate to see an opportunity blown on "warming up the new guy" in 08.

 

[redman]

Jets fan here...and maybe a bit of a Penny apologist. I think the Jets are in a position this year where they HAVE to try to win now. The Pats will not be the Pats of 07, but they will still be a 13 win team, which means they have to beat out Miami and Buffalo for a spot in the playoffs most likely. I think that they are a hair better on paper than Buffalo now, and better than Miami too, but in 09, that could drastically change. Parcells will need a year to get that ship righted and while Buffalo is good, I don't think they are any better (on paper again) than they were last year. The Jets have added many impact players to their roster and while they may have a window for a few years, the rest of the AFC East will be getting better too. Why I state this is because I think over the next five years, 08 will be their best (not only, but best) opportunity to make some noise. Penny can manage a team just as good as a Dilfer/Brad Johnson-type and I would like to see him get a chance early in the year. If they open at 3-3, I have no issue with Clemens coming in, but I would hate to see an opportunity blown on "warming up the new guy" in 08.

The point here is that this 2008 "opportunity" is limited by Pennington. Who cares if you go 10-6 and 11-5 and then lose in the first round of the playoffs? Is that the nature of the opportunity you want to seize? Your team plays in the better of the two conferences, which usually has 2 elite and 3 more borderline elite teams in the playoffs every year. This isn't the NFC where questionable teams like the Bears can sneak into the Super Bowl. You may as well see what the one QB on your roster who might get you to the promised land can do, because you won't get there with Pennington.

 

[sholditch]

I've noticed a trend that has been going on amongst Jets fans these past two seasons. It seems lately there are two types of fans. There are the Chad Supporters and then there are those calling for the Clemens Revolution.

If there's one thing I hate hearing, it's "Chad dosen't have an arm". When people say that, I feel like they're just completly ignorant to how our offense works. Laverneous Coles said it best during an interview with the Post last year in the middle of the teams struggles, "The people who criticize Chad don't know the game of football.".

The philosophy of our offense is to use short, safe passing routes and balance these with a strong running game. This is where people usually say, well we do that because of Chad's arm strength. No that's not why. The object is to control the ball for long periods of time and march methodically down the field.

With a good offensive line, Chad's intellegence and precision helps him flourish in this system.

Ah yes, the famous dink-n-dunk offense. The Bears have been running this for the better part of the past three decades, and have had one of the most consistently terrible offenses because of it. GL with that.

 

[pjconley]

I set a poll up in a Jets forum Kellen or Chad, Currently it's Chad with 52% (12 VOTES) of the votes, Kellen 43% (10 VOTES), and Ainge 4% (1 VOTE).

Like I said. A Jets nation divided.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

 

[redman]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

I don't think I agree. I'd take '07 Eli, the '01 Brady and even the '02 Johnson over Pennington. I like and respect Chad, but he just can't make all the throws and is therefore limited as a QB. Even Brad Johnson circa 2002, by which time he'd lost arm strength, was more dangerous downfield than Chad is now.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'm an outsider with absolutely no stake in this - not a Pennington owner, not a Clemens owner, I don't even have a Jets offensive player on any of my dynasty teams. While I'm not necessarily an authority on all things Jets, my impression here is that this is the classic case of a steady, popular player with limited upside becoming entrenched in fans' minds in the position, so much so that they don't see his shortcomings.

Chad's ability to hit targets more than 15 yards past the line of scrimmage is limited, not because he can't get the ball there, but because it hangs in the air too long. This is one of the big differences between college and the pros - you can get away with that in college, but in the pros it goes from being a big play for the offense to, quite often, a big play for the defense. Chad's worthless on the deep out, a staple NFL throw. With less field to cover, the defense has the luxury of playing the SS up all the time and blitzing more. Maybe Chad's solid reads will help him defeat the blitz and find a weak spot on the field, but that doesn't change the fact that he's starting in a hole all the time.

The argument that the Jets like to run a ball control offense misses the point. The Giants liked to do that under Phil Simms too, but unlike Penny, Simms had an arm that could hurt you downfield if your defense got too nosy near the line of scrimmage. The mere threat of the deep pass and big play is often the most valuable part of the QB's arm strength. Without that, you're running your offense inside a 15-20 yard box on every play, regardless of field position, and you're going to be limited.

To me, you have to go with Clemens to either have him as your long term starter or to rule him out in that regard. As someone else said, Pennington is what he is at this point - he's a known quantity. You won't win a championship with him, and even winning a playoff game will be a challenge. He'd make a good backup QB who can enter games when the starter goes down and exploit a game plan designed around another QB's traits; he can even win the occasional start for you. As we've seen elsewhere, there's a valuable role for guys like Koy Detmer or AJ Feeley as backups, but they get into trouble when they're the starters for anything more than short stretches of time.

Yes, Pennington could never win the Super Bowl. Your QB needs to be top notch to win the SB, and he sure as heck can't lead the league in INTs.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

I don't think I agree. I'd take '07 Eli, the '01 Brady and even the '02 Johnson over Pennington. I like and respect Chad, but he just can't make all the throws and is therefore limited as a QB. Even Brad Johnson circa 2002, by which time he'd lost arm strength, was more dangerous downfield than Chad is now.

None of those guys were good. None were in the top two tiers in the league.They all had stronger arms, but none of them were as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington.There's obviously a lot more to being a QB than arm strength. The Jets have won two playoff games under Pennington. That's more than a lot of current QBs starting for teams.

 

[NoFBinLA]

I think this thread pretty much proves your point, PJ.

I dunno where I sit - Penny's arm was already shaky and his accuracy - his strength - was pretty bad at important moment last season. But KC didn't exactly instill me with epic confidence.

 

[redman]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

I don't think I agree. I'd take '07 Eli, the '01 Brady and even the '02 Johnson over Pennington. I like and respect Chad, but he just can't make all the throws and is therefore limited as a QB. Even Brad Johnson circa 2002, by which time he'd lost arm strength, was more dangerous downfield than Chad is now.

None of those guys were good. None were in the top two tiers in the league.They all had stronger arms, but none of them were as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington.There's obviously a lot more to being a QB than arm strength. The Jets have won two playoff games under Pennington. That's more than a lot of current QBs starting for teams.

I agree that there's more to leading a team than arm strength. You're telling me that the 2001 Brady wasn't as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington? I disagree, flat out.I'd also say that the Eli I saw from late December through the Super Bowl was better than anything I've seen from Penny at any time. Who knows if that lasts, but if we're breaking it down by year as you did, then I still take the come-of-age-Eli from last winter. As for Brad Johnson, again the key is the year. He's similar to Pennington in overall quality, but the fact is that he put together a great year in 2002. In 13 starts he threw for over 3000 yards, 62% and 22 TD's versus only 6 INT's. He was a huge part of why that team - on that historically has and had suffered from spotty QB play - won the Super Bowl. Again, I take that version of Johnson hands down over Pennington, but that's the closest comparison of the bunch.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

I don't think I agree. I'd take '07 Eli, the '01 Brady and even the '02 Johnson over Pennington. I like and respect Chad, but he just can't make all the throws and is therefore limited as a QB. Even Brad Johnson circa 2002, by which time he'd lost arm strength, was more dangerous downfield than Chad is now.

None of those guys were good. None were in the top two tiers in the league.They all had stronger arms, but none of them were as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington.There's obviously a lot more to being a QB than arm strength. The Jets have won two playoff games under Pennington. That's more than a lot of current QBs starting for teams.

I agree that there's more to leading a team than arm strength. You're telling me that the 2001 Brady wasn't as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington? I disagree, flat out.I'd also say that the Eli I saw from late December through the Super Bowl was better than anything I've seen from Penny at any time. Who knows if that lasts, but if we're breaking it down by year as you did, then I still take the come-of-age-Eli from last winter. As for Brad Johnson, again the key is the year. He's similar to Pennington in overall quality, but the fact is that he put together a great year in 2002. In 13 starts he threw for over 3000 yards, 62% and 22 TD's versus only 6 INT's. He was a huge part of why that team - on that historically has and had suffered from spotty QB play - won the Super Bowl. Again, I take that version of Johnson hands down over Pennington, but that's the closest comparison of the bunch.

QBs have up and down spurts. Obviously, you hope the up spurts happen during your playoff run. That's what happened to Eli. It didn't happen to Brady, but the rest of the team played so well the Patriots won.Lots of people talk like gamblers, saying you should go with the upside pick over the better EV pick. I don't think that's wise. To me, Clemens has more volatility, but a lower expected range of performance. I don't want that for my team.

 

[Boston]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

If the Jets have a D equal to the Ravens or Bucs D when they won a title than I like Pennington as a QB. Since I don't see that happening I think the Jets need a QB with much more upside than Chad. As a Pats fan I can honestly say I have not gone into a game against the Jets wondering how the Pats could handle Pennington because I know he's not going to do anything special (i.e. help a less talented team win...which is one of many reasons the Pats have won 10 of the last 11). I've seen more than enough of him to know what he brings to the table. Put him on a real good team and he can be a solid field general who probably won't screw things up. Put him in a position where he has to make plays and he's nothing special. Add in the fact he's only had one year where he's played a full 16 games and you simply have a solid but unspectacular QB who's not going to lead a team without a devastating D very far.

 

[redman]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

I don't think I agree. I'd take '07 Eli, the '01 Brady and even the '02 Johnson over Pennington. I like and respect Chad, but he just can't make all the throws and is therefore limited as a QB. Even Brad Johnson circa 2002, by which time he'd lost arm strength, was more dangerous downfield than Chad is now.

None of those guys were good. None were in the top two tiers in the league.They all had stronger arms, but none of them were as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington.There's obviously a lot more to being a QB than arm strength. The Jets have won two playoff games under Pennington. That's more than a lot of current QBs starting for teams.

I agree that there's more to leading a team than arm strength. You're telling me that the 2001 Brady wasn't as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington? I disagree, flat out.I'd also say that the Eli I saw from late December through the Super Bowl was better than anything I've seen from Penny at any time. Who knows if that lasts, but if we're breaking it down by year as you did, then I still take the come-of-age-Eli from last winter. As for Brad Johnson, again the key is the year. He's similar to Pennington in overall quality, but the fact is that he put together a great year in 2002. In 13 starts he threw for over 3000 yards, 62% and 22 TD's versus only 6 INT's. He was a huge part of why that team - on that historically has and had suffered from spotty QB play - won the Super Bowl. Again, I take that version of Johnson hands down over Pennington, but that's the closest comparison of the bunch.

QBs have up and down spurts. Obviously, you hope the up spurts happen during your playoff run. That's what happened to Eli. It didn't happen to Brady, but the rest of the team played so well the Patriots won.Lots of people talk like gamblers, saying you should go with the upside pick over the better EV pick. I don't think that's wise. To me, Clemens has more volatility, but a lower expected range of performance. I don't want that for my team.

I agree with almost everything you say except your conclusion.Do you really think that this Jets team is a championship caliber team with Pennington at QB? This year? In that conference? Even in the flukiest of years I can't see them winning out of the likes of NE, Indy, SD, Jax, Pit., etc., and then go on to also win the Super Bowl. IMHO if you've got a young, unproven guy you think might have a higher ceiling under those circumstances, you play him and figure out what you've got. You can always switch back to Pennington if you see the experiment failing.I mean seriously, are Jets fans so risk averse that they want a more certain fate of finishing between, say, 6-10 on the downside and 11-5 on the upside, followed by a likely one-and-done in the playoffs, rather than taking a shot at something bigger?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

If the Jets have a D equal to the Ravens or Bucs D when they won a title than I like Pennington as a QB. Since I don't see that happening I think the Jets need a QB with much more upside than Chad. As a Pats fan I can honestly say I have not gone into a game against the Jets wondering how the Pats could handle Pennington because I know he's not going to do anything special (i.e. help a less talented team win...which is one of many reasons the Pats have won 10 of the last 11). I've seen more than enough of him to know what he brings to the table. Put him on a real good team and he can be a solid field general who probably won't screw things up. Put him in a position where he has to make plays and he's nothing special. Add in the fact he's only had one year where he's played a full 16 games and you simply have a solid but unspectacular QB who's not going to lead a team without a devastating D very far.

The last two years, Pennington has given NE more trouble than just about any other QB.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

I don't think I agree. I'd take '07 Eli, the '01 Brady and even the '02 Johnson over Pennington. I like and respect Chad, but he just can't make all the throws and is therefore limited as a QB. Even Brad Johnson circa 2002, by which time he'd lost arm strength, was more dangerous downfield than Chad is now.

None of those guys were good. None were in the top two tiers in the league.They all had stronger arms, but none of them were as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington.There's obviously a lot more to being a QB than arm strength. The Jets have won two playoff games under Pennington. That's more than a lot of current QBs starting for teams.

I agree that there's more to leading a team than arm strength. You're telling me that the 2001 Brady wasn't as good at leading a team or reading defenses as Pennington? I disagree, flat out.I'd also say that the Eli I saw from late December through the Super Bowl was better than anything I've seen from Penny at any time. Who knows if that lasts, but if we're breaking it down by year as you did, then I still take the come-of-age-Eli from last winter. As for Brad Johnson, again the key is the year. He's similar to Pennington in overall quality, but the fact is that he put together a great year in 2002. In 13 starts he threw for over 3000 yards, 62% and 22 TD's versus only 6 INT's. He was a huge part of why that team - on that historically has and had suffered from spotty QB play - won the Super Bowl. Again, I take that version of Johnson hands down over Pennington, but that's the closest comparison of the bunch.

QBs have up and down spurts. Obviously, you hope the up spurts happen during your playoff run. That's what happened to Eli. It didn't happen to Brady, but the rest of the team played so well the Patriots won.Lots of people talk like gamblers, saying you should go with the upside pick over the better EV pick. I don't think that's wise. To me, Clemens has more volatility, but a lower expected range of performance. I don't want that for my team.

I agree with almost everything you say except your conclusion.Do you really think that this Jets team is a championship caliber team with Pennington at QB? This year? In that conference? Even in the flukiest of years I can't see them winning out of the likes of NE, Indy, SD, Jax, Pit., etc., and then go on to also win the Super Bowl. IMHO if you've got a young, unproven guy you think might have a higher ceiling under those circumstances, you play him and figure out what you've got. You can always switch back to Pennington if you see the experiment failing.I mean seriously, are Jets fans so risk averse that they want a more certain fate of finishing between, say, 6-10 on the downside and 11-5 on the upside, followed by a likely one-and-done in the playoffs, rather than taking a shot at something bigger?

If you give me the choice of:80% chance of making the playoffs, 5% chance of winning the Super Bowl, 20% chance of going 8-8I'd take that over30% chance of making the playoffs, 10% chance of winning the Super Bowl, 50% chance of winning six games or less, 10% chance of going 8-8.But that's just me. There's more to life than upside risk.(FWIW, I also think this could be a very good Jets team. Potential for a great defense and an above average offense. I think they can be a top 5 team in the AFC this year.)

 

[Boston]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

If the Jets have a D equal to the Ravens or Bucs D when they won a title than I like Pennington as a QB. Since I don't see that happening I think the Jets need a QB with much more upside than Chad. As a Pats fan I can honestly say I have not gone into a game against the Jets wondering how the Pats could handle Pennington because I know he's not going to do anything special (i.e. help a less talented team win...which is one of many reasons the Pats have won 10 of the last 11). I've seen more than enough of him to know what he brings to the table. Put him on a real good team and he can be a solid field general who probably won't screw things up. Put him in a position where he has to make plays and he's nothing special. Add in the fact he's only had one year where he's played a full 16 games and you simply have a solid but unspectacular QB who's not going to lead a team without a devastating D very far.

The last two years, Pennington has given NE more trouble than just about any other QB.

The Jets have scored 14, 10, 17, 17 and 16 points against the Pats in the last two years. In those games Pennington has thrown a total of six TDs. That's pretty ordinary as far as offensive output is concerned. There have been times where he has looked good against the Pats but it's usually when they are in a position to go with the short stuff. Once the get into a situation where they need something more Pennington is just not that effective.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

If the Jets have a D equal to the Ravens or Bucs D when they won a title than I like Pennington as a QB. Since I don't see that happening I think the Jets need a QB with much more upside than Chad. As a Pats fan I can honestly say I have not gone into a game against the Jets wondering how the Pats could handle Pennington because I know he's not going to do anything special (i.e. help a less talented team win...which is one of many reasons the Pats have won 10 of the last 11). I've seen more than enough of him to know what he brings to the table. Put him on a real good team and he can be a solid field general who probably won't screw things up. Put him in a position where he has to make plays and he's nothing special. Add in the fact he's only had one year where he's played a full 16 games and you simply have a solid but unspectacular QB who's not going to lead a team without a devastating D very far.

The last two years, Pennington has given NE more trouble than just about any other QB.

The Jets have scored 14, 10, 17, 17 and 16 points against the Pats in the last two years. In those games Pennington has thrown a total of six TDs. That's pretty ordinary as far as offensive output is concerned. There have been times where he has looked good against the Pats but it's usually when they are in a position to go with the short stuff. Once the get into a situation where they need something more Pennington is just not that effective.

Pennington against the Patriots, 2006-2007: 66% completion rate, 6.41 Y/A, 5 TD/2 INTRest of NFL against New England, 2006-07: 57% completion rate, 6.6 Y/A, 28 TD/39 INTPennington has a 90.2 QB Rating against New England the past two years. All the other QBs in the NFL have a 69.7 QB Rating against the Patriots.You might not have noticed it because New England's pass defense has been terrific the past two years, but most QBs play really badly against them. Pennington, meanwhile, plays well against them. Put it this way -- I have a lot more faith in Pennington beating the Patriots than Clemens.

 

[Boston]

Pennington is a good but nothing special QB who will never be known as Mr. Durability. At 31 years old he is what he is and I don't see it changing. While he's never going to be a big stat guy the fact he's only thrown more than 17 TDs once in his career is not overly impressive. He has some strengths but he is limited with what he can do for an offense and everyone in the NFL knows it. If the Jets are to ever reach serious contending status they're going to need better and more consistent QB play. Whether Clemens is the answer is open for legit debate. Yet, with Pennington you know what you have and it involves very limited upside and if he isn't on a team with a big time D I don't see him being able to get a team over the hump.

Considering Pennington is probably better than or equal to half of the last eight SB champion QBs at the time they won, I think looking at upside with a QB can be overrated. He's not Brady '03, Brady '04, Roethilsberger '05 or Manning '06, but he's just as good as the other guys. And lest you forget, neither Big Ben nor Manning had great post-seasons. Ben was awful in the SB, and Manning had two clunkers in the playoffs.

If the Jets have a D equal to the Ravens or Bucs D when they won a title than I like Pennington as a QB. Since I don't see that happening I think the Jets need a QB with much more upside than Chad. As a Pats fan I can honestly say I have not gone into a game against the Jets wondering how the Pats could handle Pennington because I know he's not going to do anything special (i.e. help a less talented team win...which is one of many reasons the Pats have won 10 of the last 11). I've seen more than enough of him to know what he brings to the table. Put him on a real good team and he can be a solid field general who probably won't screw things up. Put him in a position where he has to make plays and he's nothing special. Add in the fact he's only had one year where he's played a full 16 games and you simply have a solid but unspectacular QB who's not going to lead a team without a devastating D very far.

The last two years, Pennington has given NE more trouble than just about any other QB.

The Jets have scored 14, 10, 17, 17 and 16 points against the Pats in the last two years. In those games Pennington has thrown a total of six TDs. That's pretty ordinary as far as offensive output is concerned. There have been times where he has looked good against the Pats but it's usually when they are in a position to go with the short stuff. Once the get into a situation where they need something more Pennington is just not that effective.

Pennington against the Patriots, 2006-2007: 66% completion rate, 6.41 Y/A, 5 TD/2 INTRest of NFL against New England, 2006-07: 57% completion rate, 6.6 Y/A, 28 TD/39 INTPennington has a 90.2 QB Rating against New England the past two years. All the other QBs in the NFL have a 69.7 QB Rating against the Patriots.You might not have noticed it because New England's pass defense has been terrific the past two years, but most QBs play really badly against them. Pennington, meanwhile, plays well against them. Put it this way -- I have a lot more faith in Pennington beating the Patriots than Clemens.

I honestly don't think Pennington does anything special. The Pats give them the short pass which Pennington is good at. He'll complete a decent amount of passes but overall the Jet offense is not putting too much pressure on the Pats. If they had more big play ability than the short passing game would be that much more effective. Yet, for the most part the Pats will give up some short ones but do a good job of keeping the Jets off the scoreboard because they know Pennington isn't going to do anything more than he normally does.As for Clemens v. Pennington I see both sides. Clemens is still an unknown quantity. The Jets are trying to win now and putting their fate in his hands is risky. Yet, on the flipside if Pennington's behind center their upside is limited and there's always the threat he could go down with an injury as durability has never been a strong trait of his. Overall I see there being more upside with Clemens...as well as more downside. Since Clemens is a young QB I'm sure the Jets are very curious to see what he looks like as he starts his third camp. IMO if Clemens doesn't grab the reigns and show he can be the Jets QB now and for the future it will set this franchise back and make it very difficult to become a serious contender...they'll be better but nothing more than a decent .500 team.

 

[brednbuddah]

His arm is worse than ever and now he is making bone head throws. He gets coles killed on a regular basis, and the last thing i want to see is him getting Cotchery and Keller laid out going over the middle for one of his lolly pops.

GOOD POINT....

That's the part we often forget when remembering "good Chad"......

Last year especially - In all the talk the Chad fans want to bring to the table this might be something we want to put up at the top of the list.....

Chad got Coles killed in that game against Buffalo last year at the Meadowlands and if I remember correctly, Clemens started the next game. yes, very good point.

 

[brednbuddah]

the hit Coles takes is in this clip

 

[NYRAGE]

Clemens, with no starting experience, never had Coles & Cotchery together like Chad did last season. Yet Clemens still won 3 games versus Chad's 1 win. He could have had a couple of more wins if McCairens wasn't useless by dropping a couple of td passes. I think Cotchery dropped another game-winner.

People refer to Chad as if this was the Chad of 5 years ago. Even when the Jets made the playoffs two years ago, Chad's TD to INT ratio was 1:1 (17 vs 16). This is in stark contrast to his stats when he was considered a top game manager.

Aside from all the killer INTs that Chad threw last year, another problem is that he does not allow a receiver to have any yards after catch. His receivers run good routes, they get wide open (even without much speed), but by the time Chad's lollipops get to the receiver, the receiver gets killed by 2 defenders.

I've seen what the recent version of Chad can do or more like, can't do. I'll take Kellen over Chad without hesitation. Let the guy have a decent o-line and get some games under his belt. He must have more upside than Chad because Chad's upside is just being mediocre at best. I loved Chad back in the day, but it's time to put emotion aside. This isn't the same Pennington.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Clemens, with no starting experience, never had Coles & Cotchery together like Chad did last season. Yet Clemens still won 3 games versus Chad's 1 win. He could have had a couple of more wins if McCairens wasn't useless by dropping a couple of td passes. I think Cotchery dropped another game-winner.People refer to Chad as if this was the Chad of 5 years ago. Even when the Jets made the playoffs two years ago, Chad's TD to INT ratio was 1:1 (17 vs 16). This is in stark contrast to his stats when he was considered a top game manager.Aside from all the killer INTs that Chad threw last year, another problem is that he does not allow a receiver to have any yards after catch. His receivers run good routes, they get wide open (even without much speed), but by the time Chad's lollipops get to the receiver, the receiver gets killed by 2 defenders.I've seen what the recent version of Chad can do or more like, can't do. I'll take Kellen over Chad without hesitation. Let the guy have a decent o-line and get some games under his belt. He must have more upside than Chad because Chad's upside is just being mediocre at best. I loved Chad back in the day, but it's time to put emotion aside. This isn't the same Pennington.

People that cite Clemens' "record" as reason for him to be the starter are absolutely crazy. I'm not going after you, NYRAGE, because I've seen lots of intelligent people do it. But it's just ludicrous.Clemens and Pennington both beat Miami.Clemens beat KC, who was on an 8 game losing streak.Clemens beat Pittsburgh in a game where he did absolutely nothing.Sure, Pennington only had one win. But predicting how good your QB will be in the future based off their number of wins in the past is silly. Pennington was clearly better than Clemens last year, by leaps and bounds.Last year, Clemens ranked last in completion percentage. LAST. Pennington ranked 2nd, one tenth of a point behind Brady.Clemens ranked 5th in INT percentage, in between Tarvaris Jackson and Marc Bulger. Pennington was 15th, in between Carson Palmer and Philip Rivers.Pennington ranked 19th (out of 33) in yards per pass attempt. Clemens ranked 30th.Pennington ranked 15th in QB Rating. Clemens ranked LAST. Behind REX GROSSMAN.Adjusted yards per pass? Clemens ranked second to last, ahead of TRENT DILFER and no one else. Pennington ranked 19th.I'm not saying Clemens stinks, or that he can't improve. But there's nothing at all behind the "Clemens was better than Pennington" last year shtick. I've seen it from tons of people on Jets boards. They're delusional. Pennington played a tougher schedule, and played at a time when the Jets defense was worse. Clemens played an easier schedule, and had a very good defense behind him. So yeah, Clemens might have looked like he was "leading" the Jets to something. But Pennington was much, much better than Clemens last year.

 

[brednbuddah]

I'm not saying Clemens stinks, or that he can't improve. But there's nothing at all behind the "Clemens was better than Pennington" last year shtick. I've seen it from tons of people on Jets boards. They're delusional. Pennington played a tougher schedule, and played at a time when the Jets defense was worse. Clemens played an easier schedule, and had a very good defense behind him. So yeah, Clemens might have looked like he was "leading" the Jets to something. But Pennington was much, much better than Clemens last year.

Pennington should be a better QB than Clemens. Pennington is a veteran, Clemens has about a half dozen starts to his name. If Pennington is worlds better than Clemens, how come Mangini hasn't come out and announced his starter as he did last year - months before the season even started, to avoid a QB controversy. It's an open competition this year. May the better QB win.

 

[Reaper]

As this debate has gone on I've gone from slightly leaning to Pennington to slightly leaning to Clemens....

Pennington is also at the end of his rope - And wether that's unfortunate or not, fair or not, Clemens is the new kid and gets more leeway - But, if Chad is in the home opener and plays his normal 120 yard dink and dunk game and throws a pick, the crowd is going to rain BOOS all over him and it can only get worse - Unfortunately for him, he needs to play his best Football EVER and not look back. He needs to bank some good will with the fans and staff cuz he's on empty right now.

And yeah, if he gets hit again and lays on the field, the idiot drunkards are going to cheer. Again.

We need to see preseason games - Chad's problems started last year in the preseason - He threw some horrible picks in the preseason that opened your eyes but, you hoped that wasn't really Chad and he would never do that in the regular season cuz, that's Chad's game - No Turnovers....

Here's the start to Chad's preseason last year 7/10 0 TD's 2 INTS - Two Td's the OTHER way

It was over when

Darren Sharper took Chad Pennington's third pass the other way 40 yards for a Vikings touchdown. Later in the first quarter Chad Greenway returned another errant Pennington throw for a touchdown and Minnesota was on its way to the victory.

Horrible Horrible INT's...

Beat Reporter Rich Cimini states it the way it is: Cimini Blog

Chad Pennington vs. Kellen Clemens will start to heat up. Based on their offseason, the Jets fancy themselves as a win-now team and, on paper, Pennington is a better win-now quarterback than Clemens. But, make no mistake, Pennington will have to win by knockout. A draw goes to Clemens, whose arm opens up a different dimension for the offense.

 

[Rovers]

I've seen this topic beaten to death so many times, I wasn't going to bother posting, but here I go anyway.

The Jets offense IS limited with Pennington at QB, and teams know how to prepare and and defend against what has become a predictable offense when CP is running it. They jump those short routes now, and play tight against Jet WR's, resulting in more INT's and making CP look like he makes poor decisions at times. Defenders jump the predictable Jets' WR routes. They have little fear of the deep pass, and no Jets WR is so fast that many CB's have the make up speed to catch up to them when Pennington airs one out for 45 yards with a year of hang time.

Yes, both Clemens and CP had no protection last year. That is more of a problem for a young inexperienced QB like Clemens, who never got the time to set for a deep throw, losing his best weapon (vs. CP), throwing the deep route. Pennigton's talent set is better suited to a pourous O line. Because he can't throw deep, he doesn't get hurt as much under pressure.

The agruement about whether or not CP could win a Super Bowl is a simple one, I think. If the Jets had a top D and a very solid running game, yes, he could win a SB. Unfortunately, the Jets have neither. I see some improvement in those areas, but not near enough to overcome an offense that has no quick strike ability. This team needs more from it's QB than Pennington has to offer. Clemens may or may not, but that question remains unanswered IMO. The rush to judgement on Clemens both by fans and media is nothing short of ridiculous. He desrves another season to develop. Tony Romo's only happen every so often.... most QB's need game time under center. Romo also had a good O line and a good rush offense to aid his development.

I think we know what CP brings to the table, and it isn't enough for this Jets team.... while the jury is still out on Clemens.

 

[Reaper]

I've seen this topic beaten to death so many times, I wasn't going to bother posting, but here I go anyway.The Jets offense IS limited with Pennington at QB, and teams know how to prepare and and defend against what has become a predictable offense when CP is running it. They jump those short routes now, and play tight against Jet WR's, resulting in more INT's and making CP look like he makes poor decisions at times. Defenders jump the predictable Jets' WR routes. They have little fear of the deep pass, and no Jets WR is so fast that many CB's have the make up speed to catch up to them when Pennington airs one out for 45 yards with a year of hang time. Yes, both Clemens and CP had no protection last year. That is more of a problem for a young inexperienced QB like Clemens, who never got the time to set for a deep throw, losing his best weapon (vs. CP), throwing the deep route. Pennigton's talent set is better suited to a pourous O line. Because he can't throw deep, he doesn't get hurt as much under pressure. The agruement about whether or not CP could win a Super Bowl is a simple one, I think. If the Jets had a top D and a very solid running game, yes, he could win a SB. Unfortunately, the Jets have neither. I see some improvement in those areas, but not near enough to overcome an offense that has no quick strike ability. This team needs more from it's QB than Pennington has to offer. Clemens may or may not, but that question remains unanswered IMO. The rush to judgement on Clemens both by fans and media is nothing short of ridiculous. He desrves another season to develop. Tony Romo's only happen every so often.... most QB's need game time under center. Romo also had a good O line and a good rush offense to aid his development. I think we know what CP brings to the table, and it isn't enough for this Jets team.... while the jury is still out on Clemens.

I'll also wait for the Rovers camp reports to hear how each guy looks in camp... And if Chad's arm miracurously gets much stronger..... Hey, I think most of the NFL is on HGH, now is the time Chad

 

[NYRAGE]

Clemens, with no starting experience, never had Coles & Cotchery together like Chad did last season. Yet Clemens still won 3 games versus Chad's 1 win. He could have had a couple of more wins if McCairens wasn't useless by dropping a couple of td passes. I think Cotchery dropped another game-winner.People refer to Chad as if this was the Chad of 5 years ago. Even when the Jets made the playoffs two years ago, Chad's TD to INT ratio was 1:1 (17 vs 16). This is in stark contrast to his stats when he was considered a top game manager.Aside from all the killer INTs that Chad threw last year, another problem is that he does not allow a receiver to have any yards after catch. His receivers run good routes, they get wide open (even without much speed), but by the time Chad's lollipops get to the receiver, the receiver gets killed by 2 defenders.I've seen what the recent version of Chad can do or more like, can't do. I'll take Kellen over Chad without hesitation. Let the guy have a decent o-line and get some games under his belt. He must have more upside than Chad because Chad's upside is just being mediocre at best. I loved Chad back in the day, but it's time to put emotion aside. This isn't the same Pennington.

People that cite Clemens' "record" as reason for him to be the starter are absolutely crazy. I'm not going after you, NYRAGE, because I've seen lots of intelligent people do it. But it's just ludicrous.Clemens and Pennington both beat Miami.Clemens beat KC, who was on an 8 game losing streak.Clemens beat Pittsburgh in a game where he did absolutely nothing.Sure, Pennington only had one win. But predicting how good your QB will be in the future based off their number of wins in the past is silly. Pennington was clearly better than Clemens last year, by leaps and bounds.Last year, Clemens ranked last in completion percentage. LAST. Pennington ranked 2nd, one tenth of a point behind Brady.Clemens ranked 5th in INT percentage, in between Tarvaris Jackson and Marc Bulger. Pennington was 15th, in between Carson Palmer and Philip Rivers.Pennington ranked 19th (out of 33) in yards per pass attempt. Clemens ranked 30th.Pennington ranked 15th in QB Rating. Clemens ranked LAST. Behind REX GROSSMAN.Adjusted yards per pass? Clemens ranked second to last, ahead of TRENT DILFER and no one else. Pennington ranked 19th.I'm not saying Clemens stinks, or that he can't improve. But there's nothing at all behind the "Clemens was better than Pennington" last year shtick. I've seen it from tons of people on Jets boards. They're delusional. Pennington played a tougher schedule, and played at a time when the Jets defense was worse. Clemens played an easier schedule, and had a very good defense behind him. So yeah, Clemens might have looked like he was "leading" the Jets to something. But Pennington was much, much better than Clemens last year.

Chase,No problem. My point about the wins is more of a counter-point to people saying that Chad guarantees more wins than Clemens. It certainly didn't happen last year. Obviously there are a lot of factors involved in determining the outcome of the game, much more than just blaming/crediting the QB.The fact is that neither QB was impressive last year. The offense did not deliver TDs. In 9 games with Chad, the Jets scored an average of 16 points per game. In 7 games with Clemens, the Jets averaged 18 points per game.The stats are just stats imo. It's about production and winning - and neither did much.When games were on the line, Chad cost us some games with some horrific INTs. I'd rather go with an unproven player not cutting it yet that has a chance to improve, than a player on the downside of his career that isn't cutting it now either.

 

[brock]

does it even matter who the qb is? the jets are a mediocre team and have been for a while. you might as well give clemens a chance. pennington has led the team to just as many losing seasons as playoff appearances. oh wait. 2005 prolly doesn't count as a losing season for penny since he missed 13 games. even better.

 

[trader jake]

As long as Chad Pennington is the starting quarterback the Jets have a much smaller chance of being a serious Super Bowl contender than the talent around him would otherwise suggest. Chad just doesn't have 'it'. In Chad's case it = a strong enough arm, clutch decision making, and an ability to stay healthy for 16+. Pennington is a great back-up QB at this point in his career.

I doubt Clemens or Ainge have it either but we already know Chad doesn't. The Jets should roll the dice on Clemens and get Ainge some meaninful preseason snaps as well.

 

[browntown]

With the way the Jets spent in FA, it's clear they want to win NOW. Thing is, Pennington is their best option to win now, but he's certainly not without his flaws. It's well publicized he's a highly accurate gamer that the team can rally behind, but that his lack of a deep arm limits the offense. Enter Clemons, who's got the bigger arm, but is probably too experienced to seriously make a run with him.

Pennington gets them further now, but Clemons is the incumbant, and this would be really valuable development time for the 2nd year QB. At the end of the day nobody thinks the Jets can realistically contend with either Pennington or Clemons (in his current state), so they should be going with the young guy in hopes he earns enough stripes to competantly lead them a few years down the road. This debate is a lot about nothing, it seems that's exactly what the coaching staff will do.

 

[DropKick]

Hey... I've always liked the Jets and a relative played with Namath... but I think you guys are way way way too close to the situation and Chad doesn't incite fear into anyone. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Kiddnets]

Best case is KC beats out Chad in camp - let the kid have a shot - if he falters I have more faith in Chad stepping in at game 4 rather than KC.

If KC can't beat out Chad its a lost year anyway - Jets will make a playofff run with Chad and come up short mostly due to Chad's limitations. If this happens then the JEts at least know they need a new QB in 2009.

 

[Liquid Tension]

The majority were ok with Chad until he started making DUMB mistakes.If you have his arm you better close out games and make the plays... Uncharacteristically Chad threw a bunch of horrible Picks to seal losses last year and if the Jets fall behind at all, it's tough for Chad to make a come back....I don't love either option but, with the seemingly improved Defense, line play /running game and TE weapon, let the QB battle begin. It was tough to judge either QB last year so, hopefully Chad comes back stronger and Clemens comes back with a light bulb lit in his head and they both play well when called upon.

I think defenses have started to really cheat on Chad because his lack of arm strength limits what you can do. However, he is very accurate and when he played mistake free football he could win if he had a good team around him. However, as reaper states, Chad threw a few picks in the end zone and when you have Chad's limitations you simply can't play like Favre.

 

[Bri]

Best case is KC beats out Chad in camp - let the kid have a shot - if he falters I have more faith in Chad stepping in at game 4 rather than KC.

that's a fair pointThe other way seems like heading toward a losing season, while that way seems like it's still got hope.

 

[brednbuddah]

The majority were ok with Chad until he started making DUMB mistakes.

If you have his arm you better close out games and make the plays... Uncharacteristically Chad threw a bunch of horrible Picks to seal losses last year and if the Jets fall behind at all, it's tough for Chad to make a come back....

I don't love either option but, with the seemingly improved Defense, line play /running game and TE weapon, let the QB battle begin.

It was tough to judge either QB last year so, hopefully Chad comes back stronger and Clemens comes back with a light bulb lit in his head and they both play well when called upon.

I think defenses have started to really cheat on Chad because his lack of arm strength limits what you can do. However, he is very accurate and when he played mistake free football he could win if he had a good team around him. However, as reaper states, Chad threw a few picks in the end zone and when you have Chad's limitations you simply can't play like Favre.

you can make that statement about any QB. It´s just the same as saying, ¨if you give [enter QB´s name here] time, he´ll pick you apart.It´s the poor decisions that Chad made last year to lose games in the 4th qtr that makes me feel they´d be better off starting the season with Clemens. Stupid mistakes by a young QB is ¨growing pains¨. Stupid mistakes by a veteran is just stupid mistakes.

 

[brock]

i can understand jets fans frustrations. the team's history can pretty much be summed up by one season. 1968. this team has been well below average since. minus 1968 and they're only a couple of steps a head of the new orleans saints suckage.