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Joe Biden as a war president (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gopher State
- Start date
FairWarning
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
FairWarning
Footballguy
If we didn’t get the wake-up call with relying on China for masks, we will never get it.
djmich
Footballguy
So you're saying the example you used of someone who would start a war for ratings, in fact didn't start a war for ratings.
But yes I know, he's a great example.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
IMO every administration "wants" war in the sense that I think there is way too much money to be made by being in war.Courtjester said:
James Daulton
Footballguy
djmich
Footballguy
Gopher State
Footballguy
djmich
Footballguy
James Daulton
Footballguy
If Putin invades, I hope we crush them with sanctions. He needs to know that he can't just take whatever he wants.
Here's where we need to get off of oil as fast as possible. Oil is a big reason Russia is able to finance it's war machine.
Here's where we need to get off of oil as fast as possible. Oil is a big reason Russia is able to finance it's war machine.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I think a Russian invasion and consequent occupation will be a long term disaster for both Vlad and Russia.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Yes, I've said as much in other threads. We spend way too much energy #####ing about the POTUS and "teams". IMO our country is much more of a plutocracy than we talk about in these political threads, and more of our decision making is associated with that. Way too much money to be made being in perpetual wars, locking people up, etc.. The R/D stuff is just a sideshow distraction, and real change won't come as long as the same donors are dropping millions into both campaigns.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
It's genuinely hard to argue that big industries - tech, pharma, oil, defense, etc. - don't have an enormously unfair and disproportionate influence on the federal government. Breaking their grip may be the hardest thing we ever try to do and I'm not confident at all that we can do it.
To wit, at this time two years ago our Secretary of Defense was on Raytheon's board.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Exactly. Just follow the trail of where all these people end up or come from in these administrations.
djmich
Footballguy
Hmm. This is interesting to me.
I in general tend to be skeptical of government and people in government. I think its warranted and healthy when done reasonably.
But Karma, you here are basically saying we go to wars because people, like the current secretary of defense, will profit from it? Or at least they want us to go to war? It's very reasonable observation to make, that hey the guy who knows military stuff was on the board of a company that makes military stuff...but that's a big leap and a very blanket assumption.
And then I perceive you as very dismissive of sceptics of say governmental covid policy and the vaccine. Are the same motivations and/or ingredients not also there?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I will start with the last one - yes the same ingredients are there. Similar concept we have people coming and going from administrations that are tied to pharma companies, etc. IMO we need to keep that in mind when talking about things. I don't think it's a surprise that despite popular support we still have a for-profit medical system, generic and alternative meds are suppressed, and our insurance is tied to our employment. Similar to no matter what team is in the WH we seem to get expansions of the war on drugs and more people locked up.
Similar to what I was getting at with my statement above. Maybe bad phrasing on my part. I don't think we want to go to war in that people don't care about soldiers or want people to die or anything. But there is too much money at stake in weapons manufacturing and construction. So I think there is 0 surprise that our Defense budget is never cut, we seem to be in perpetual war of some sort, etc. It is a lot harder to justify our extreme Defense budget if we aren't using it.
Max Power
Footballguy
djmich
Footballguy
Gopher State
Footballguy
So Biden issued a severe warning today to Putin during their phone call. If Russia attacks Joe is ready:
FairWarning
Footballguy
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
That might be so. And Biden is old school Vietnam era type.
We bail on the Afghans, and going to fight Russia with Ukraine?
I will never understand politics.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Hopefully with a boatload of sanctions from us and our allies. Not with troops.
I still don't understand what Putin hopes to gain from occupying a hostile country. His own country is in pretty bad shape and severe sanctions will make things even more difficult.
James Daulton
Footballguy
I wouldn't say we bailed on the Afghans, we were there forever, trained them up, etc. They choose to roll over to the Taliban once it became clear the US was pulling out.
And I don't think anyone expects US troops to engage in Ukraine.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
driveby post:
"I dont believe there are any Russians, and there ain't no yanks. Just corporate criminals, playing with tanks."
- David Byrne
"I dont believe there are any Russians, and there ain't no yanks. Just corporate criminals, playing with tanks."
- David Byrne
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
You are right, the pullout was a disaster though.
Biden should have never set a date, slowly get all Americans out on our timeline.
ren hoek
Footballguy
running out of words to describe how depraved US foreign policy is. to wit:
-spending billions arming Ukraine while covid & economy spiral out of control
-stopping a pipeline between Germany and Russia that both parties (and tons of Europeans) want
-Ukraine blames their collapsing economy on us; urges US to cool it with narrative about Russia invading Ukraine
-Russia preparing for western-sponsored violence against ethnic Russian minority in Ukraine
https://twitter.com/bidetmarxman/status/1492463774640476171
-spending billions arming Ukraine while covid & economy spiral out of control
-stopping a pipeline between Germany and Russia that both parties (and tons of Europeans) want
-Ukraine blames their collapsing economy on us; urges US to cool it with narrative about Russia invading Ukraine
-Russia preparing for western-sponsored violence against ethnic Russian minority in Ukraine
https://twitter.com/bidetmarxman/status/1492463774640476171
H Jass
Footballguy
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
I completely agree with you. I know taking the Russians at their word is dangerous at best, but even tonight their official message was they are not going to invade, and they are just doing exercises.
Again, maybe where these is smoke, there is fire, but how many times does the United States participate in joint military exercises with different foreign nations? If every time that was perceived as a prelude to invasion--just saying....
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Gopher State
Footballguy
Ukrainian president asked Biden today to come visit his country today during their phone call. Will Joe go?
ren hoek
Footballguy
and the ukraine, germany, us citizens and antiwar people in general. thousands dying of covid and homeless people turning up on the street everyday while democrats drum up war with russia
The General
Footballguy
Desert_Power
Footballguy
chet
Footballguy
It's bizarre to see people side with Putin. Putin is an expert at engineering reasons for a war (ask the Chechens). Now he's doing it right out in the open and it's sad to see people fall for it. 100k+ troops are just stationed there for defense. Right. War ships are there for defence. OK.
And to the people that say "it's Ukraines problem". Appeasing dictators usually works cause they totally stop once they get what the want. Putin stopped after annexing Crimea, just like Hitler stopped after annexing the sudetenland. I'm not saying that NATO should get involved in a war in Ukraine, but they should definitely support them in anyway possible.
It's also pretty misleading to pretend that Ukraine is blaming the US. They definitely called Biden out for using inflammatory language but they have been thanking NATO countries for the support they have received. https://www.euronews.com/2022/02/02/ukraine-crisis-mps-hold-up-flags-to-thank-countries-for-their-support
Questioning a government that has a long history of lying about threats posed by other countries is not siding with Putin.tymarsas said:
All the same people who spent the last 20 years lying to us about Afghanistan are still in charge. But I'm sure this Russia thing is completely on the level.
You don't have to believe the government. You can read the BBC or Al Jazeera or whomever you like. Facts are facts. Russia has 130K troops on Ukraine's border. What is the "let's blame the US government" version of that? What's changed in the last 6 months that would justify Russia's action here?
James Daulton
Footballguy
IF Joe stares down Putin, big win for him.
And one he certainly needs until inflation starts to go down in the next few months.
And one he certainly needs until inflation starts to go down in the next few months.
What do you "justified"? Justified morally? That's not how foreign policy works.
Regarding the troop build up, we have to ask: what does Putin want? Of course he could seize vast swaths of Ukrainian territory with relative ease. But can he occupy that territory?
While Putin may not have to worry about elections, if Russian soldiers come home in bodybags while the economy tanks as Russia is cut off from Western markets he may have his own Euromaidan to deal with.
Threatening an invasion destabilizes Ukraine and sends a message. It's not clear to me what actually invading would accomplish.
I think the administration is playing a dangerous game trying to escalate the possibility of war in order to claim credit for avoiding it (and goosing the profits of the arms manufacturers doesn't hurt either)
Edit: one additional point. Threatening an invasion has exposed divisions within NATO. Actually invading may have the effect of uniting NATO which Putin does not want.
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I generally agree with all of this. I've already stated multiple times that Putin won't invade because it would be too costly. But I wouldn't be surprised if he invaded and annexed eastern Ukraine "to protect the ethnic Russians".
What irritates me is that there is one person that is solely responsible for this mess. It is Putin. He put the 130k troops on the border. People like to blame Biden for using too strong of language like "imminent", but he is not the only world leader doing this. Has anyone been following what the UK government has been saying.
Nearly every country has been meeting with Putin and trying to de-escalate the situation and yet the one thing that would de-escalate, removing the troops, is not happening. When I say justify, I mean what reason does Putin have to put these troops there. He's trying to blame it on NATO, but there is no logical reason to do this other than to threaten Ukraine. There is no defensive motive here.
Of course this true. More powerful countries threaten less powerful ones regularly. It's the way of the world.
But that doesn't mean one has to support the course of action this administration has chosen. And dissenting does not mean that one is "siding" with Putin. The casual nature of these smears is gross and has to stop.
Blaming the Democrats for drumming up war with Russia is definitely buying into Putin's narrative and thus siding with Putin.
The French, German, and most importantly Ukrainian governments have all publicly dissented from the Biden administration's assessments. Are they all on Putin's side too?
The General
Footballguy
I think Ukraine has mostly dissented from calling it out, not from the assessment. I mean they are training civilians including children to fight. And are trying to get an emergency meeting with Russia. So pretty sure they are concerned about an invasion even if they are trying to act unconcerned.
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