Joe Biden Is Not the Safe Choice (1 Viewer)

[ren hoek]

Which is exactly why, contrary to the title of this thread he is the safe choice. 

They're not coming out like this because Biden has suddenly become some charismatic, great leader. Hardly. He’s the same old doddering Joe, well meaning, often with his foot in his mouth, but a good man and a normal man. Not an ideologue; centrist and old fashioned. 

They’re coming out for him because they want to get rid of Donald Trump. 

They'd show up like this for anyone that was winning the primary at this stage.  I could have sworn this guy was dead in the water after Nevada.  I'm a little annoyed that black voters in SC ended up proving your firewall theories right.  

It wasn't all that long ago that John Kerry was performing the saddest campaign stop I've ever seen.  Joe Biden's turnout in the Iowa caucuses was pitiful.  Even if he was light on retail politics and didn't spend much time there, it was hard to imagine him getting 4th/5th place and being a serious contender.  This is the same person that had to withdraw from his 88 presidential run because he got caught lying/plagiarizing.  

I don't think he's a good man.  He's certainly done more damage than Trump over the course of their careers.  The creepy treatment of women/children, the drunk driver fabrication, lying compulsively over and over again, the shilling for a war he knew was bogus.  I know no one cares about policy or tact or anything at all anymore, but it's just unfathomable that this is what the Democrats come up with at this dark moment in history.  

 

[KiddLattimer]

There was a great discussion of Robinson's points on the latest Intercepted Podcast... the one titled "We Need to Talk About Joe"

I probably wasn't voting for him anyway but after listening to this it pretty much solidified it. (I also live in New York so democracy doesn't matter anyway.)

 

[Da Guru]

They'd show up like this for anyone that was winning the primary at this stage.  I could have sworn this guy was dead in the water after Nevada.  I'm a little annoyed that black voters in SC ended up proving your firewall theories right.  

It wasn't all that long ago that John Kerry was performing the saddest campaign stop I've ever seen.  Joe Biden's turnout in the Iowa caucuses was pitiful.  Even if he was light on retail politics and didn't spend much time there, it was hard to imagine him getting 4th/5th place and being a serious contender.  This is the same person that had to withdraw from his 88 presidential run because he got caught lying/plagiarizing.  

I don't think he's a good man.  He's certainly done more damage than Trump over the course of their careers.  The creepy treatment of women/children, the drunk driver fabrication, lying compulsively over and over again, the shilling for a war he knew was bogus.  I know no one cares about policy or tact or anything at all anymore, but it's just unfathomable that this is what the Democrats come up with at this dark moment in history.  

It is going to be Joe.  Bernie is toast.  We will have Liar vs Liar in November.  Was hoping for some fresh blood like Amy or Pete and have Joe and Bernie retire

 

[timschochet]

  We will have Liar vs Liar in November. 

Do you truly see no distinction here? 

 

[lazyike]

They'd show up like this for anyone that was winning the primary at this stage.  I could have sworn this guy was dead in the water after Nevada.  I'm a little annoyed that black voters in SC ended up proving your firewall theories right.  

It wasn't all that long ago that John Kerry was performing the saddest campaign stop I've ever seen.  Joe Biden's turnout in the Iowa caucuses was pitiful.  Even if he was light on retail politics and didn't spend much time there, it was hard to imagine him getting 4th/5th place and being a serious contender.  This is the same person that had to withdraw from his 88 presidential run because he got caught lying/plagiarizing.  

I don't think he's a good man.  He's certainly done more damage than Trump over the course of their careers.  The creepy treatment of women/children, the drunk driver fabrication, lying compulsively over and over again, the shilling for a war he knew was bogus.  I know no one cares about policy or tact or anything at all anymore, but it's just unfathomable that this is what the Democrats come up with at this dark moment in history.  

No way could Biden ever get elected over President Trump because Biden is a compulsive liar? Yes voters are going to stick with Trump because they want an honest man in the White House. Truth be told the reason voters will vote for Biden is because is a good honest decent man. A million times more of a decent man than Trump. Yes, Biden has some baggage like any candidate, but there is no such thing as a perfect candidate.

 

[Da Guru]

Do you truly see no distinction here? 

Of course I do.  Joes lies are politician lies. Trump just lies about everything.

 

[Kal El]

Of course I do.  Joes lies are politician lies. Trump just lies about everything.

After the past 3+ years, politician lies are the least of our problems.

 

[ren hoek]

No way could Biden ever get elected over President Trump because Biden is a compulsive liar? Yes voters are going to stick with Trump because they want an honest man in the White House. Truth be told the reason voters will vote for Biden is because is a good honest decent man. A million times more of a decent man than Trump. Yes, Biden has some baggage like any candidate, but there is no such thing as a perfect candidate.

He’s not honest.  He just fabricated a complete fairytale about Nelson Mandela.  He makes up stories all the time.

He’s not decent.  He knowingly sold a war based on lies that killed hundreds of thousands of people, including thousands of US troops.  

His work in office GAVE US Trump.  He supports 95% of Trump’s agenda.  His policies destroyed the middle class, and will be a liability in industrial midwest.  His policies ratcheted up the prison pipeline, and will be a liability with black people.  His disdain for millennials will be a liability as well, as will as his senility and falling mental faculties.  

He’s just horrible

 

[roadkill1292]

Four years, Joe. Then turn it over to the next generation.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Four years, Joe. Then turn it over to the next generation.

This is why his VP choice is extra important.

 

[zftcg]

He supports 95% of Trump’s agenda.

I'm sorry, what were we saying about lies?

 

[ren hoek]

I'm sorry, what were we saying about lies?

On what policies specifically do you think Biden would be fundamentally different from Trump?  

 

[KPD]

On what policies specifically do you think Biden would be fundamentally different from Trump?  

You could probably go through one of Bozeman's posts listing out Trump's "accomplishments" and I would bet given the partisan nature of the list that it would be a pretty good list for this question too.

One thing we know they both are interested in is investigating corruption in Ukraine.

 

[ren hoek]

You could probably go through one of Bozeman's posts listing out Trump's "accomplishments" and I would bet given the partisan nature of the list that it would be a pretty good list for this question too.

One thing we know they both are interested in is investigating corruption in Ukraine.

What I don’t understand is why people expect there to be a meaningful difference when they are both owned by most of the same lobbies.  The drug war, prison system, banking hegemony, corporate oligarchy, pharmaceutical price gouging, neoconservative foreign policy- when it comes to the stuff that matters, they are practically interchangeable.  

In some ways Biden is even worse.  Because Biden will put the left to sleep again.  With Trump, they’re at least somewhat cognizant of the horrible #### that happens in our name (which happened under Biden too but no one said anything til it could be weaponized against Trump).  

Biden won’t change anything, he just pleases the sensibilities of people that are well off enough to not be affected by his disastrous policies, which are the same as Trump’s, that’s the problem.  

 

[ShamrockPride]

Rose Marti @VILYDNA

The Democratic Party is asking Immigrants and POC to chose between the guy throwing us in cages and the guy who built the cages.

 

[lazyike]

On what policies specifically do you think Biden would be fundamentally different from Trump?  

Let’s get this started.....Biden supports a pathway to citizenship for Dreamers, his immigration plan has no funding for a border wall, supports increasing foreign aid, opposed Trump’s tax cut, supported NAFTA and TPP, Biden wants to enhance Obamacare just to name a few issues he is almost the complete opposite of Trump. I am willing to bet he would have voted against Judge Kavanaugh.  

Maybe you meant he supports 9.5% of Trump’s  agenda instead 95%? Just need to sneak a decimal point in there

 

[zftcg]

Biden won’t change anything, he just pleases the sensibilities of people that are well off enough to not be affected by his disastrous policies, which are the same as Trump’s, that’s the problem.  

Pure up-is-down-ism. The ones resting on their privilege are the people pushing false equivalencies and "heighten the contradictions" BS while downplaying the significance of, say, all the people who are alive today because they were able to get insurance through the ACA. Or minimizing the fact that Trump put children in cages because something-something Obama/Biden. And yes, Biden voted for the Iraq War, which was a huge mistake, but let's not forget that if Naderites spouting the same crap 20 years ago hadn't helped keep Gore out of the White House, there never would have been an Iraq War vote to begin with.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a middle-aged Jewish dude soaking in my own privilege. I wonder what historically marginalized groups such as, say, African Americans think about this. Are they all voting for Biden because they're "well off enough to not be affected"? Or maybe they're a bunch of dupes too stupid to recognize their own self interests? Or, just maybe, they are practical because they have to be, and have concluded that they prefer tangible incremental gains over pie-in-the-sky promises that they don't think will ever come to fruition.

Look, if you want to practice your own version of purity politics, go ahead. There's always going to be a push and pull between idealism and practicality, and different people will draw the line in different places. But miss me with the lectures on privilege.

 

[zftcg]

Rose Marti @VILYDNA

The Democratic Party is asking Immigrants and POC to chose between the guy throwing us in cages and the guy who built the cages.

OK, I'll bite. How did Biden "build the cages"?

 

[zftcg]

Good piece for Bernie supporters despairing over Biden's apparent victory.

If Biden goes on to win the White House, there’s real space for the pro-Sanders left to work its will on policy. It can use its influence to steer Biden toward its preferred outcomes. It can fulfill some of its goals under the cover of Biden’s moderation, from raising the minimum wage nationally to pushing the American health care system closer to single-payer.

This may sound a lot like wishful thinking. And if Biden were a different politician — if, like Sanders, he was strongly ideological — I might also doubt his malleability. But Biden, like Northam, is a creature of the party. He doesn’t buck the mainstream, he accommodates it. He doesn’t reject the center, he tries to claim it. You saw this during the Obama administration, when Biden reversed himself on a career of moderation to embrace and champion the former president’s most liberal policies.

 

[ren hoek]

Pure up-is-down-ism. The ones resting on their privilege are the people pushing false equivalencies and "heighten the contradictions" BS while downplaying the significance of, say, all the people who are alive today because they were able to get insurance through the ACA.

Despite Democrats having control of everything and the political capital to do whatever they wanted, people are still dying because they are poor and healthcare costs more than ever- far more than any other first world country per capita. 

Or minimizing the fact that Trump put children in cages because something-something Obama/Biden.

Obama and Biden built the cages!  They deported millions!  They separated families!  This was going on before Trump.  Please get this in your skull

And yes, Biden voted for the Iraq War, which was a huge mistake, but let's not forget that if Naderites spouting the same crap 20 years ago hadn't helped keep Gore out of the White House, there never would have been an Iraq War vote to begin with.

Whose to say Gore wouldn't have gotten us into Iraq himself?  There is plenty of reason to believe he would have eventually gone along with international consensus.  Does Joseph Lieberman strike you as a dove on the middle east as well?  The problem is too many people voted for Al Gore over Ralph Nader. 

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a middle-aged Jewish dude soaking in my own privilege. I wonder what historically marginalized groups such as, say, African Americans think about this. Are they all voting for Biden because they're "well off enough to not be affected"? Or maybe they're a bunch of dupes too stupid to recognize their own self interests? Or, just maybe, they are practical because they have to be, and have concluded that they prefer tangible incremental gains over pie-in-the-sky promises that they don't think will ever come to fruition.

Even if you think an m4a program that works well in other 1st world countries is too ambitious, a Sanders' day 1 executive order to remove marijuana from the controlled substances list is realistic and lightyears ahead of Biden, who personally fought the war on drugs when it was raging in the 90's.  I don't know why people vote against their own self-interest- sorry, but Biden has done unthinkable damage to the AA community in his lifetime- I consider it a failure of mass media that people have a distorted worldview where Biden is somehow an ally to the people he got incarcerated. 

There are no incremental gains with Biden- just wrong decision-making & the continued collapse of the republic.  

Look, if you want to practice your own version of purity politics, go ahead. There's always going to be a push and pull between idealism and practicality, and different people will draw the line in different places. But miss me with the lectures on privilege.

"Purity politics."  The idea that political systems should function without the influence of entrenched power is "purity."  It's like saying you have to have a little poison to make a glass of water.  If people think Biden will be good for this country despite all available evidence to the contrary because Trump is a unique evil (as if Biden himself isn't), then yes I think their priorities are misguided and they're advancing the same broken system that will just lead to the next Trump.  It's complete madness.  

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Despite Democrats having control of everything and the political capital to do whatever they wanted, people are still dying because they are poor and healthcare costs more than ever- far more than any other first world country per capita. 

Obama and Biden built the cages!  They deported millions!  They separated families!  This was going on before Trump.  Please get this in your skull

Whose to say Gore wouldn't have gotten us into Iraq himself?  There is plenty of reason to believe he would have eventually gone along with international consensus.  Does Joseph Lieberman strike you as a dove on the middle east as well?  The problem is too many people voted for Al Gore over Ralph Nader. 

Even if you think an m4a program that works well in other 1st world countries is too ambitious, a Sanders' day 1 executive order to remove marijuana from the controlled substances list is realistic and lightyears ahead of Biden, who personally fought the war on drugs when it was raging in the 90's.  I don't know why people vote against their own self-interest- sorry, but Biden has done unthinkable damage to the AA community in his lifetime- I consider it a failure of mass media that people have a distorted worldview where Biden is somehow an ally to the people he got incarcerated. 

There are no incremental gains with Biden- just wrong decision-making & the continued collapse of the republic.  

"Purity politics."  The idea that political systems should function without the influence of entrenched power is "purity."  It's like saying you have to have a little poison to make a glass of water.  If people think Biden will be good for this country despite all available evidence to the contrary because Trump is a unique evil (as if Biden himself isn't), then yes I think their priorities are misguided and they're advancing the same broken system that will just lead to the next Trump.  It's complete madness.  

Wow!  That is revisionist history!

Do you honestly believe there was international consensus?  Yikes!  I guess this proves that if someone repeats a falsehood enough, the pro-masses will start to believe and repeat it.

 

[The General]

Despite Democrats having control of everything and the political capital to do whatever they wanted, people are still dying because they are poor and healthcare costs more than ever- far more than any other first world country per capita. 

In what world do all Dems much less all people agree on how to build something this complex. It took a bunch of craziness to even get what they wanted passed. If they tried to do what you want there would be nothing. Cost the Dems everything in the next election and not because it didn’t go far enough.

Real world is a lot more difficult.

Bernie hasn’t exactly accomplish much in his time in the Senate. 

 

[zftcg]

Despite Democrats having control of everything and the political capital to do whatever they wanted, people are still dying because they are poor and healthcare costs more than ever- far more than any other first world country per capita. 

[...]

"Purity politics."  The idea that political systems should function without the influence of entrenched power is "purity." 

The idea that a political compromise is bad if it only saved some lives but not all of them is pretty much the definition of "purity politics". If Bernie passed M4A and someone still slipped through the cracks and died because they couldn't get insurance quickly enough, would that mean the entire effort was a horrible mistake?

Whose to say Gore wouldn't have gotten us into Iraq himself?  There is plenty of reason to believe he would have eventually gone along with international consensus.  Does Joseph Lieberman strike you as a dove on the middle east as well?  The problem is too many people voted for Al Gore over Ralph Nader. 

Are you ####ing serious with this? How can we be sure Gore would have opposed going into Iraq? Gee, I don't know, maybe we can base it on the fact that Al Gore opposed going into Iraq! By your logic, how can we really be sure Bernie wouldn't have launched the Iraq War if he had been president at the time? I mean, sure, he voted against it, but maybe his VP Joe Lieberman would have given him noogies until he agreed to support it. And yes, in this scenario Bernie chose Lieberman as his VP, because we're apparently allowed to make up whatever hypotheticals we want to argue our point, no matter how ridiculous they are.

If people think Biden will be good for this country despite all available evidence to the contrary because Trump is a unique evil (as if Biden himself isn't), then yes I think their priorities are misguided and they're advancing the same broken system that will just lead to the next Trump.  It's complete madness.  

Hi, welcome to democracy. We all have our policy preferences; sometimes we can convince enough people to vote to enact those policies, and sometimes we can't. But throwing your hands up and denouncing any solution that doesn't get you everything you want is the essence of privilege. I hate that the ACA wasn't able to cover everyone. But you know who doesn't hate it? People who would never have been able to get insurance without its passage. For those people the deals Obama cut with Pharma and the insurance companies weren't sellouts, they were literal life-savers.

Meanwhile, I'm just going to leave this here.

 

[zftcg]

Bernie hasn’t exactly accomplish much in his time in the Senate. 

That may be true, but I don't necessarily hold it against him. Bernie may have pushed for policies that weren't popular at the time, but he has also been a loyal soldier who voted for legislation like the ACA (and the crime bill!) even if it didn't give him everything he wanted. If he hasn't gotten a lot of legislation passed, it's been because he's viewed his role as being a gadfly, not because he refused to sign on to compromises.

Now, that's his Senate career. As to the question of whether one can transition from gadfly to president, I'll just say that it's really hard to do, and I think that difficulty is one of the reasons Bernie is on track to lose the nomination again.

 

[The General]

That may be true, but I don't necessarily hold it against him. Bernie may have pushed for policies that weren't popular at the time, but he has also been a loyal soldier who voted for legislation like the ACA (and the crime bill!) even if it didn't give him everything he wanted. If he hasn't gotten a lot of legislation passed, it's been because he's viewed his role as being a gadfly, not because he refused to sign on to compromises.

Now, that's his Senate career. As to the question of whether one can transition from gadfly to president, I'll just say that it's really hard to do, and I think that difficulty is one of the reasons Bernie is on track to lose the nomination again.

A lot of truth in here. This helps illustrate my point however that @ren hoek isn’t being realistic with his political demands of these people.

 

[zftcg]

A lot of truth in here. This helps illustrate my point however that @ren hoek isn’t being realistic with his political demands of these people.

Yes, Bernie has always been a realist. It's also worth pointing out that he has pledged to support Biden if he's the nominee.

Speaking of which, I've really liked what I've been hearing from AOC over the past couple days.

 

[The General]

Yes, Bernie has always been a realist. It's also worth pointing out that he has pledged to support Biden if he's the nominee.

Speaking of which, I've really liked what I've been hearing from AOC over the past couple days.

I’d say all Dems are being realists in these issues Berns just gets the advantage of talking all this stuff. That’s why he’s not super popular among lawmakers I’d guess.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Yes, Bernie has always been a realist. It's also worth pointing out that he has pledged to support Biden if he's the nominee.

Speaking of which, I've really liked what I've been hearing from AOC over the past couple days.

Agree about AOC - she is a very talented politician - and that has come out even more in the last few days.

I laugh at people who think she is/was a flash in the pan.

You may not agree with her politics, but dismiss her at your own peril.

 

[Summer Wheat]

Agree about AOC - she is a very talented politician - and that has come out even more in the last few days.

I laugh at people who think she is/was a flash in the pan.

You may not agree with her politics, but dismiss her at your own peril.

I don`t mind her, she reminds me of Lavar Ball in a way.  Say outlandish stuff and keep your name in the press.  In todays age it really does not matter if anything you say is actually fact or true as it disappears in 24-48 hours.  Hell the impeachment was never talked about again after a day or so.