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kenbrell thompkins (1 Viewer)
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JamesTheScot
Footballguy
This is a bit curious. Some are speculating that Thompkins is ahead of Dobson right now.
This situation is a perfect case study in how draft pedigree colors analysis.
Nine days ago Rotoworld went out on a limb and conceded that he was all but a lock for the 5th WR spot. The 5 spot? Thanks Rotoworld! Way to stay ahead of the curve there.
On some teams I'd say Dobson's pedigree would be an advantage. But I think on the Patriots he's going to get an even shot at the job. I think in the "expert" community there's some reluctance to admit that an UDFA has brought the wood to a position competition that was given to Dobson by the pundits several months ago.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Dobson is a beast, and may still be the player to have in spite of this Cinderella story..
Roto wasn't wrong, that's how it's been presented. He either starts or is 5th. Dobson is outwide with Amendola in the slot. Boyce seems to be a sub for speed/excitement at any of the three spots.
The two WR offense is where it's difficult because everyone projects amendola in the slot.
Edelman hasn't done as well as Thompkins. He returned and Brady took some extra reps with him, but KT seems(link earlier) to have held his starting spot.
It is uncommon for an offense to use 5 WR with some regularity, but this seems to be one of those times.
The oh so common theme lately among reporters seems to be the chemistry between Brady and Thompkins. This probably also has to do with him seeming to keep an edge over Edelman.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Beast isnt the word that should be used to describe Dobsons game.
However, he certainly looked the part of a pro receiver in college.
gpthatsme
Footballguy
I have no idea if this has already been posted somewhere in this thread, but it's a good article about his past.
http://bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/new_england_patriots/2013/07/kenbrell_thompkins_rescues_himself_from_woes
http://bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/new_england_patriots/2013/07/kenbrell_thompkins_rescues_himself_from_woes
Illegal Pants Downfield
Footballguy
Patriots UDFA WR Kenbrell Thompkins continues to take the first-string reps at practice.
We're three weeks into camp and Thompkins hasn't slowed down. Per beat writer Mike Reiss, his "consistency has been impressive throughout camp." Second-round rookie Aaron Dobson has come on as well, but it appears clear Thompkins is in the lead for the starting "X" job. He's shaping up as a strong flier in the back of fantasy drafts.Aug 14 - 9:10 AM
Source: ESPN Boston
We're three weeks into camp and Thompkins hasn't slowed down. Per beat writer Mike Reiss, his "consistency has been impressive throughout camp." Second-round rookie Aaron Dobson has come on as well, but it appears clear Thompkins is in the lead for the starting "X" job. He's shaping up as a strong flier in the back of fantasy drafts.Aug 14 - 9:10 AM
Source: ESPN Boston
Aaron Dobson and Kenbrell Thompkins looked fantastic in one-on-one drills. Dobson made a leaping grab over Leonard Johnson and Thompkins put his foot in the dirt twice for an impressive double move on Johnthan Banks before pulling in the reception. -Danny Amendola wasn’t his usual completely dominating self in one-on-ones. He got beat by Adams and Johnson.
Read more at: http://nesn.com/2013/08/tom-bradys-knee-injury-overshadows-rest-of-patriots-buccaneers-intense-joint-practice-notes/
Read more at: http://nesn.com/2013/08/tom-bradys-knee-injury-overshadows-rest-of-patriots-buccaneers-intense-joint-practice-notes/
FOXBORO, Mass. — When Thursday’s joint practice session between the New England Patriots and Tampa Bay Buccaneers comes to an end around 4:15 p.m., training camp will officially be over in Foxboro. There won’t be much to glean from the final Patriots training camp practice, since it’s a walk through the day before a game. The players will be in shorts and shells, going through the motions at less-than-half speed. That means this is the perfect time to look back while it’s still fresh in the mind to go over the Top 10 takeaways from Patriots summer camp. Training camp started two days early this year when Bill Belichick held a press conference Wed. July 24 to address the Aaron Hernandez situation. Players were badgered by questions the next day whether the murder investigation would distract the team. A solemn Vince Wilfork said the team would have to concentrate on football to get past the tragedy. It looks like the Patriots, and the media, have done just that, as the name Hernandez hasn’t been whispered around Gillette Stadium since the last week of July. The final padded practice of training camp had the crowd go eerily silent halfway through when Tom Brady went down clutching his knee after Nate Solder got embarrassed on a bull rush by Bucs defensive end Adrian Clayborn. The uncertainty at the time had everyone within a 200-mile radius of Foxboro reeling, but the future hall-of-famer — and his knee — will survive. In the three weeks between those two events, the Patriots ran a lot of drills, players improved before our very eyes, the team practiced with the Eagles and Buccaneers and even played a preseason game in Philadelphia. Here’s what we saw in those three weeks of training camp: 1. Patriots found two undrafted gems: Kenbrell Thompkins and Zach Sudfeld started to stand out in the spring during OTAs and minicamp, but they proved how consistently good they can be during the summer. Thompkins has only had one bad practice, which came in the first week of camp during the team’s session under the stars at Gillette Stadium. Thompkins proved it wasn’t the time of day or bigger setting that made him have a case of the dropsies, as he impressed in last week’s preseason game against the Eagles. Thompkins can seemingly do it all. He flies by defensive backs on go routes, he can stop on a dime after the catch and his route running is second only to Danny Amendola on the Patriots’ roster. Sudfeld has been nearly as impressive, gathering more and more reps with the first team (though, Belichick says there is no such thing) as the summer has progressed. Sudfeld’s speed and quickness sets him apart from the rest of the Patriots’ tight ends. He still needs to prove himself as a blocker, but since he’s been setting up in Hernandez’s old “flex” spot, that isn’t as important as his receiving skills. 2. Tim Tebow is improving: Let’s just get this out of the way now. Tebow was really bad when training camp first started up. There were some chuckles in the media tent over his inability to get rid of the ball on time, look off his first target or even deliver a ball in the general vicinity of his intended receiver. But Tebow showed some real improvement by the time Wednesday’s practice had finished. His favorite target is Quentin Sims, and sometimes Tebow still has trouble looking past the 6-foot-3 receiver, but the third-stringer was delivering the ball with some zip and accuracy as he got the second team moving. Tebow is still no Brady, nor is he Ryan Mallett, but if he continues to improve, he could just yet find a spot on the 53-man roster. 3. Patriots top picks flashing, but inconsistent: It’s slightly telling that the top rookies on the team so far are Thompkins and Sufeld, both of whom New England swooped up after the draft. Top picks Jamie Collins and Aaron Dobson show flashes of what made them second-rounders, but also that they’re still rookies and may not be able to be relied upon consistently early. Collins still shows some hesitation in coverage and against the run, though he seems to have no problem rounding the corner to rush the quarterback. Dobson has a flair for the dramatic, as he’ll make incredible leaping catches, but can struggle with drops and route running.
Read more at: http://nesn.com/2013/08/kenbrell-thompkins-emergence-tim-tebows-improvement-among-top-10-takeaways-from-patriots-training-camp/
Read more at: http://nesn.com/2013/08/kenbrell-thompkins-emergence-tim-tebows-improvement-among-top-10-takeaways-from-patriots-training-camp/
BB not giving anyone starting status yet
http://nesn.com/2013/08/patriots-starting-roles-at-wide-receiver-tight-end-still-fluid-undetermined-based-on-training-camp-reps/
http://nesn.com/2013/08/patriots-starting-roles-at-wide-receiver-tight-end-still-fluid-undetermined-based-on-training-camp-reps/
So their TC is over (which seems odd with the season a few weeks away) and Thompkins is still doing everything we collectively thought he would need to do. Naturally, this is very big that he made it through camp and remained with the ones.
I didn't get the impression Boyce poured it on enough (with like a string of great practices) to improve from early struggles to starter. I see love for him N all but I think he's still going to be like a super sub and come in at any of the 3 WR spots to create a mismatch.
Dobson still hasn't overcome the press coverage issues. I still feel like he's the thoroughbred here.
Some of the drops articles read like he caught 8 balls but two he completely dropped and then focus on the drops...that's probably normal for the other NFL teams that don't have a guy like Brady throwing; not so sure if drops are the concern some say it is with him. It might be he makes the circus catches and impresses and they expect him to catch everything. Whenever they stated numbers for catches versus drops it has not been concerning.
Somewhat mentioned in the linked article above, Edelman seemed buried by the rooks and then like BB and Co wanted to give him another shot with the ones. Next day the rooks were back seeming to clearly be ahead of him on the depth chart. It really seems like he's fallen quite a bit from Brady's welcome his first day until now.
In the 3 WR set, I thought it was KT or Edelman starting and so now I'm projecting KT as the starter.
There's an odd, ok it's done, no wait there's three weeks left, feeling. IDK how the Pats are with reporters access in this final period before the season. Hopefully we'll still get detailed updates.
BB has a way of resting people in preseason games that can be misleading to FF people wanting to glean info from playing time. Currently I'm wondering if they even play Brady in the remaining preseason games or make sure that knee is OK by resting him. Originally he "had to" to get work in with the rooks and I liked that thinking. I'm wondering though.
I didn't get the impression Boyce poured it on enough (with like a string of great practices) to improve from early struggles to starter. I see love for him N all but I think he's still going to be like a super sub and come in at any of the 3 WR spots to create a mismatch.
Dobson still hasn't overcome the press coverage issues. I still feel like he's the thoroughbred here.
Some of the drops articles read like he caught 8 balls but two he completely dropped and then focus on the drops...that's probably normal for the other NFL teams that don't have a guy like Brady throwing; not so sure if drops are the concern some say it is with him. It might be he makes the circus catches and impresses and they expect him to catch everything. Whenever they stated numbers for catches versus drops it has not been concerning.
Somewhat mentioned in the linked article above, Edelman seemed buried by the rooks and then like BB and Co wanted to give him another shot with the ones. Next day the rooks were back seeming to clearly be ahead of him on the depth chart. It really seems like he's fallen quite a bit from Brady's welcome his first day until now.
In the 3 WR set, I thought it was KT or Edelman starting and so now I'm projecting KT as the starter.
There's an odd, ok it's done, no wait there's three weeks left, feeling. IDK how the Pats are with reporters access in this final period before the season. Hopefully we'll still get detailed updates.
BB has a way of resting people in preseason games that can be misleading to FF people wanting to glean info from playing time. Currently I'm wondering if they even play Brady in the remaining preseason games or make sure that knee is OK by resting him. Originally he "had to" to get work in with the rooks and I liked that thinking. I'm wondering though.
loose circuits
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I think this is a very reasonable offer for him and depending on your investment into Thompkins + Who you can pick up after your trade should = profit for you.
I understand not being sure about this however as Thompkins could end up being very valuable such as Colston who came out of nowhere somewhat too.
The question for me here is what is Thompkins upside in this offense? This could be a bargain for the buyer as well, but they are taking on that risk with an unknown then instead of you. I would likely lean towards taking it but I understand why you pause.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Not sure why being 25 is any issue to anyone at all when we're talking about a position like WR. If Thompkins is a R Smith/Ward/Colston/Cruz he's got a decade to play. His age would IMO be an irrelevant factor if he can actually play at a decent level in the NFL. We've all seen WRs who appeared to have a hell of a lot more talent than Boyce fail in the NFL. The draft is over. The name of the game now is actual performance. The facts are that Thompkins is outperforming Boyce, looks to have a NFL capable game, and is widening the gap between himself and Boyce. Wait on Boyce if you want. I'll take the guy who is actually getting it done and is running with the 1s in a prolific passing O.
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Rookie_Whisperer
Footballguy
EBF
Footballguy
People often say stuff like this. There's definitely a downside to being too rigid, but also to being too reactive. In this case, I don't think anything we've seen from the Pats rookie WRs in the last 2-3 weeks has been so decisive that we can make concrete judgments about their careers. All we can really say is that Thompkins has done extremely well for a UDFA and looks like a good bet to make the roster and perhaps even be a week one starter. That's significant and definitely moves him from "total afterthought" to "guy with a chance" territory.
Does any of that mean he's going to excel come game day or that he's going to stave off the other two rookie WRs long term? No. For all the hype, he hasn't done much of anything in the preseason games. He was a UDFA and a mediocre college player. He's arguably the least gifted athletically of the big three rookie WRs there. So while he's probably been fastest out of the blocks, that doesn't guarantee that he's going to be standing on the medal stand in a few years. Where you start isn't always where you finish.
To answer your question, I would still take Boyce over him without hesitation. You can call that stubbornness or denial if you'd like. I call it confidence in my initial judgment. Boyce is the best athlete that New England has at WR and most of the training camp buzz about him has been encouraging. Maybe he's not as polished or refined as Thompkins yet, but I think he has the highest ceiling of these guys. I look for him to surpass the other two at some point. Maybe it happens this season. Maybe not.
I've mentioned this example elsewhere, but a few years ago I took Andre Roberts in pretty much all of my rookie drafts. That year in training camp he played horribly and was clearly outshined by rookie UDFA Stephen Williams. People said he was lucky just to make the 53 man roster. Fast forward a few years later and Roberts is a key player for the Cardinals while Williams is a journeyman trying to latch on with the Seahawks. I'm glad that I ignored the "evidence" in that case and stood by my initial evaluation. Careers are a marathon, not a sprint. Some guys explode out of the blocks. Some guys take a while to get moving.
It's good to pay attention to the preseason and keep an eye out for guys like Alfred Morris and Daryl Richardson who are sneaking up the depth chart. Despite what I've said in this post, Thompkins is absolutely a guy who would've justified a waiver pickup on the basis of the buzz. However, if you always use the first 2-3 weeks of a rookie's career as a perfect predictor for the next 6-7 years, you're gonna have a bad time.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
some people adjust their opinions based off new information and others just continue to try to support their previous opinions despite evidence to the contrary. Which side do you fall on? You still trying to hype.Boyce who is far down the depth To answer your question, I would still take Boyce over him without hesitation. You can call that stubbornness or denial if you'd like. I call it confidence in my initial judgment. Boyce is the best athlete that New England has at WR and most of the training camp buzz about him has been encouraging. Maybe he's not as polished or refined as Thompkins yet, but I think he has the highest ceiling of these guys. I look for him to surpass the other two at some point. Maybe it happens this season. Maybe not.
It's good to pay attention to the preseason and keep an eye out for guys like Alfred Morris and Daryl Richardson who are sneaking up the depth chart. Despite what I've said in this post, Thompkins is absolutely a guy who would've justified a waiver pickup on the basis of the buzz. However, if you always use the first 2-3 weeks of a rookie's career as a perfect predictor for the next 6-7 years, you're gonna have a bad time.
Yeah, and if one's ego makes you pass up Cruz for Sweed or Hardy, who's FF team is going to end up better.
It seems like you've sold yourself completely on Boyce so much that you're willing to ignore what is right in front of your eyes. It wouldn't be the first time, though you aren't the most egregious. Watching Thompkins, I see a technician with very sound hands emerging. Guys have made great NFL careers out of those traits, especially in an O like the Pats' and with a guy like Brady distributing.
ETA - don't get me wrong, EBF. You do a great job with analysis. But if you and some other über-analysts would just step back and reflect on current events rather than digging in your heels so deeply, I think you and the community here would much better served.
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Frank Costanza's Lawyer
Footballguy
identikit
Footballguy
EBF
Footballguy
You can cherry pick examples from both sides. You name players like Sweed and Hardy. How about Roddy White and Plaxico Burress? Plenty of players have looked lost at the start of their careers only to develop into great starters. There are guys like Miles Austin, Vincent Jackson, and Steve Smith who barely caught a pass as a rookie. If you base your entire strategy on what happened yesterday, you're not going to hang onto those guys long enough to see the reward.
These debates come up every season. What I've pointed out in the past is that the burden of proof required to get you to change your mind about a player is going to vary depending on several variables. If you don't really have an opinion about a player, you're going to ebb and flow with the latest news and developments because that's all you have to work from. If you have a strong opinion of a player, you're less likely to be swayed by the mood of the moment.
In this case, if you didn't really have a dog in this NE WR fight, you're going to be more inclined to see the early success of Thompkins as strong evidence that he's the best of the group. If you had a strong preference for Dobson or Boyce before training camp, you're probably not going to back down off that based on 2 or 3 weeks of practice. There are times when making the snap judgment will end up being correct (like with AJ Jenkins last year) and there are times when standing pat will end up being correct (like with Vincent Jackson). I don't know what's going to happen in New England, but it's certainly not madness for a Dobson or Boyce owner to hold out hope for those guys. I don't think the "evidence" up to this point is enough to reach a verdict. We're still in the early phases of the trial.
Having said that, I'd also point out that it's not an either-or-thing. It's not like only one of these players is allowed to succeed. It's possible for all of them to pan out. If Thompkins runs away with the job and dominates as a rookie, that doesn't necessarily tell us much about Dobson and Boyce. It's possible (though extremely unlikely) that all three will be great in a couple years. My point is that being high on one doesn't mean you have to think the rest are trash.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
loose circuits
Footballguy
hacman
Footballguy
EBF is merely sticking to his convictions that he had developed before training camp. That is to be commended.
I think ego is inserting itself by trying to have him capitulate his beliefs after a few weeks.
We come here to get differing opinions. He has built his reputation. His analysis is on record here. Take it or leave it.
Jonathan Franklin was the smart pick three weeks ago and Eddie Lacy was the bust prospect.
Let's get some perspective in here.
EBF
Footballguy
He did, but that was last preseason. By then he had already become an afterthought on the team. He didn't catch a pass in 2011.
identikit
Footballguy
Haven't heard to much 'trashing' any of the WRs in question.
Your comments are closest to a back-handed variety of this talk. Such as 'All we can really say is that Thompkins has done extremely well for a UDFA.'
He's doing extremely well, period. Really doesn't matter what his draft status was/wasn't IMO. All of these WRs are attending the same events with the same opportunity.
All most of us here are trying to do is monitor their progress and gauge their value
You come across quite biased.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
No one is saying otherwise - just to recognize the facts as they develop and to discuss and possibly modify opinions based upon those facts. All we're seeing is diminishment of a player despite the facts on the field - and it's over more than two weeks' time. It goes back to spring and if one is really watching carefully even back into college. I would be interested to see what the opinions if Boyce would be if he had had freakin' Lagaux and Key throwing to him in that CF passing O The only way to justify that diminishment is a personal bias that the facts do not support right now. In 5 years he may bring this thread up and crow because Boyce is a regular All Pro and Thompkins is flipping burgers at his church socials.
But let's at least acknowledge facts for what they are and use them to enhance the discussion, shall we?
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hacman
Footballguy
The facts are that is still early and we will know more in a year or two.
EBF did a nice job of explaining his philosophy on UDFA's in general (and the NE WRs specifically) in posts 219 and 223. He even gave an example of another situation that influences his thoughts. Not sure what else people want from him other than crying uncle.
We want informed people posting in here. Not understanding why we want them backing off their convictions. EBF has thoughtfully answered the whys, I just don't think people like his answers. I understand his answers and they are completely logical. BTW, I have no horse in the race.
As far as personal bias as someone else mentioned, that is what scouting, or belief in your player evaluations are.
EBF did a nice job of explaining his philosophy on UDFA's in general (and the NE WRs specifically) in posts 219 and 223. He even gave an example of another situation that influences his thoughts. Not sure what else people want from him other than crying uncle.
We want informed people posting in here. Not understanding why we want them backing off their convictions. EBF has thoughtfully answered the whys, I just don't think people like his answers. I understand his answers and they are completely logical. BTW, I have no horse in the race.
As far as personal bias as someone else mentioned, that is what scouting, or belief in your player evaluations are.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Well, it's certainly your prerogative to keep defending him too. No one is asking him for any kind of a capitulation. I would venture everyone would admit it's too early to settle the debate ongoing. But a concession that Thompkins is currently outplaying Boyce by a wide margin right now and is looking at potential starting at WR on an O that will put up big passing numbers while Boyce is languishing despite every opportunity to claim that starting spot for his own might go a long ways. Instead there's smoke screens all over to try to cover those very basic and simple facts. I can't imagine why - hell, people make mistakes in FF all the time. Why try to cover up the elephant in the room? Because it doesn't fit his mathematical model and this could be one of those times that the dice turn up box cars?
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ChainsawU
Footballguy
hacman
Footballguy
Ah, so this is an ego thing?
Believe me, I support the debate. I do feel EBF was getting ganged up on for no good reason. Accusing him of having his ego override his analysis is hypocrisy.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
No, it's an ongoing evaluation thing. Seriously, how difficult is that to understand? Thompkins is running precise routes, showing football intelligence to mesh with the complex NE O, winning fights to the football, and displaying great concentration and hands. He's getting open and Brady trusts him. What more do you want from him? Boyce is struggling with the O, can't get off the line, and doesn't get separation. This happened in spring, it happened when camp opened, and it's happening now in games.
Evaluate and believe what your eyes see. Maybe Thompkins has reached his acme and starting next week his game will level off or decline. Maybe Boykins will show great strides in the next year or two and become a viable FF WR1 starting in NE. But I prefer to evaluate on what is actually happening and what both guys are doing to earn a role and how big that role is rather than base my opinion solely on speculation of play that happened before either guy ever stepped on a pro field.
But like I said, you obviously feel the need to defend and make excuses for EBF, and you're welcome to do so, as well as deflect the discussion just as he does when it's not going well. Have at it, Sport.
ChainsawU
Footballguy
Bronco, it sounds like you have never stumbled upon a “gem” before, and now that you think you have one, you are getting defensive and calling people names because they have a stronger arguement than you do. Did you really think Thompkins was that talented coming out of college? If you did, then BOL with Thompkins and congrats on your find. But realistically, he went undrafted, and this is the preseason. And it's usually not a good idea to anoint an UDFA based on what he did in the preseason. It's preseason. Sell high bro. 
EBF
Footballguy
Thompkins is doing well by all accounts. I'm not sure where the Boyce stuff is coming from though. The main negative that I've read about him so far has been inconsistent hands. I've not read anything indicating that he's struggling to get off the line or separate. In fact, quite a few of the observers have praised him for those exact qualities:
http://nesn.com/2013/07/josh-boyces-precise-footwork-route-running-stand-out-in-patriots-training-camp-practice-notes/
http://nesn.com/2013/08/aaron-dobson-kenbrell-thompkins-josh-boyce-battling-for-patriots-starting-wide-receiver-spots-next-to-danny-amendola/
http://nesn.com/2013/08/josh-boyce-enjoys-another-great-practice-continues-to-make-case-to-be-starting-wide-receiver/
http://bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/new_england_patriots/2013/08/patriots_rookies_turning_heads
I've been following this situation pretty regularly. Checking the latest stories from the local writers almost every day. The buzz on Boyce has been mostly positive.
I've said most of what I wanted to say on this topic for now. I'm not disputing that Thompkins is ahead of Boyce on the depth chart. I think where we disagree is about how significant that observation is for their long term dynasty outlook. Depth charts are usually based on who's better right this minute. That's why you often see a rookie like Vincent Jackson or Chad Johnson sitting for year a behind inferior talents. It's not that he isn't better than them. It's just that he isn't better at that exact moment in time.
This is a somewhat different situation where we're comparing rookies with rookies instead of rookies with veterans. I think it's more damning for a rookie to lose reps to another rookie. He doesn't have the excuse of being inexperienced or having less knowledge of the system. So that's a plus point for Thompkins compared to Dobson and Boyce. These guys came in on a level playing field and Thompkins has seemingly earned the most trust thus far.
Does this mean that he will be the best player of the group 2-3 years from now? I don't think so. You can acknowledge that a player is higher on the depth chart without believing that he's going to stay there. I don't expect Robert Turbin to stay ahead of Christine Michael. Michael is more dynamic and more talented. Likewise, I still expect Boyce to have a better career than Thompkins. A player with a low ceiling, but a fast learning curve can quite easily jump in front of a player with a high ceiling and a slow learning curve. Like my Andre Roberts vs. Stephen Williams example. The important thing from a dynasty standpoint is figuring out who's the best long term bet. I still say Boyce for reasons that I've outlined previously (superior physical ability, better draft pedigree, better college performance).
Right or wrong, that opinion is based on level-headed analysis and not on biased hunches or stubbornness. As the burden of proof mounts, there might come a point where I'll flip and agree that Thompkins has a brighter future. For me, the evidence up until now isn't convincing enough.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Link? This is inconsistent with the reports I've read.
ETA: I posted this before seeing that EBF posted a number of links that seem to refute your post. Those are the kinds of things I've been reading about Boyce.
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EBF has posted the same two days before. EBF loves this guy JWB and has his heart set.
Boyce has not had a bad camp. He has been a typical rookie if not a better than normal rookie. The struggles seem to be a little of everything which you could account to nerves, inexperience, speed of the game, trying to match up with brady's ridiculous football intelligence...anything really. If he ran the wrong route one day(or any mistake), I do not know that he ran the wrong route the next. He has definitely improved and there's learning going on and lots of favorable press. It does not seem debatable that he has the best quicks and breakaway ability.
He is in a unique situation where 3 rooks are expected to contribute a lot and quite possibly a rookie TE too. All of them in awe of BB and Brady I'm sure. Thompkins looks like a veteran so ready to go. Dobson has the size and reach that makes him such an attractive target.
Any other year or for most teams this year, Boyce would be the darling.
He needs some seasoning still while the others are more ready to go. For now, he's likely excitement off the sideline. In future weeks, maybe he takes Dobson or KTs spot away. The unfortunate thing for him is several have said he looks great in the slot and...we all know Amendola isn't being benched.
I don't predict he takes someone's spot this year unless there's an injury. EBF seems to think he will take someone's spot.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Who exactly did I call a name. I'm just here for some honest discussion. I'm not even going to dignify the crap you posted above. Seems like you're the one reaching to a personal level in an effort to shield EBF. Let's be candid. EBF's primary purpose in this thread has been to diminish what Thompkins has accomplished thus far in an effort to prop up Boyce. How does Boyce's performance to date in NE have anything to do with Thompkins? And let's be more candid. You can bring up all the college stuff, combine stuff, visions of Boyce's future stardom, etc but in the end what remains is that the topic of this thread, Thompkins, is running well ahead of Boyce and with the 1s right now in NE, with week 3 PS on the immediate horizon. That worthy of merit on its own and doesn't need forays into pimping Boyce.ChainsawU said:Bronco, it sounds like you have never stumbled upon a gem before, and now that you think you have one, you are getting defensive and calling people names because they have a stronger arguement than you do. Did you really think Thompkins was that talented coming out of college? If you did, then BOL with Thompkins and congrats on your find. But realistically, he went undrafted, and this is the preseason. And it's usually not a good idea to anoint an UDFA based on what he did in the preseason. It's preseason. Sell high bro.
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EBF
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Well it is really hard to know how many targets these WR will ultimately end up getting in the offense. I know for Dobson if he does win the X receiver role, my expectation for him this season is similar to the targets that Lloyd got in the offense last season, and likely less than that because he is a rookie.
Thompkins in the same role I would be expecting about the same. A little less than Lloyd had last season. This is not a huge amount of value. The longer term prospects for either or both of them achieving this is still worth having, but I don't see the upside for much more than that.
Thompkins upside may only be Deion Branch type numbers. Getting some value in trade and picking up another nice prospect, for example Kenny Stills or another guy you may like does not seem like a bad deal for the seller, even if Thompkins manages WR2 upside.
The upside for Boyce is being projected to the Troy Brown/Wes Welker role in the offense. Maybe Thompkins could be that high volume WR also. I think Amendola is in their way. But it is higher upside if they should earn that role.
This comes back to the creme rises to the top idea. If Boyce is the player that I think EBF/Bloom think he is, that upside is higher than Dobson at least I think, but they have to him beat out Amendola to get that opportunity. It makes sense however to swing for the fences more as Dobson might only be Mike Williams type ceiling, Boyce/Thomkins upside could be higher than that.
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Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
EBF has been clear and concise regarding his opinions on the rookie WRs for NE and I agree with everything he has concluded.
Often times when a person can't fully comprehend an idea that differs with their own, the immediate reaction is to become defensive. That's what's going on in here with some of the people sort of lashing out at EBF for his opinions on Boyce. It might be wise to just take a deep breath and relax.
Often times when a person can't fully comprehend an idea that differs with their own, the immediate reaction is to become defensive. That's what's going on in here with some of the people sort of lashing out at EBF for his opinions on Boyce. It might be wise to just take a deep breath and relax.
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loose circuits
Footballguy
in the 3rd post of the thread he started bashing KT and it never really stopped- he said he didn't think he had a chance to contribute
BB and McD have been starting KT because they are defensive of EBFs differing ideas as well.
Every NFL team passed on Boyce three times. Dobson was a 2nd rounder. Dobson and KT have played ahead of Boyce since day one. This is oh so close to not being debatable NOW since these are facts, events that have happened.
There is absolutely no one taking a stance for or against Boyce in the future. Should Bloom feel like Boyce will have a better NFL career, no one has discussed that here. Should EBF think that Boyce will be the best WR ever, no one has discussed that either.
We have only discussed now as the offseason progressed and occasionally (but not often in this thread) the 2013 season.
Taking the most quicks and breakaway ability, excitement off the sideline but needs some seasoning as an insulting commentary on Boyce is absurd.
To put this in context-If you stated that Baldwin would start over Bowe in KC this year, many of the same issues would be present including the 50 some odd articles pointing out the Bowe has been running with the ones. If you stated that Baldwin would have a better career...then there's a discussion point. On draft day this was highly debatable and a great discussion, but we have facts which include who started in a preseason game and who ran with the ones in camp that altered things.
EBFs article he has quoted three times on this board, twice in this thread, is poorly written. One, because it mentions that KT is running with the ones but calls Boyce better, but most of all because it mentions Boyce having the best camp. The ONE article that says as such (despite how many for Dobson and KT) came after a week in which he struggled and I regularly quoted articles and said he needed to step up and in fact he did. But feel free to scroll away, he definitely struggled Monday thru Friday(maybe off thursday?) that week and there are plenty of articles stating as such. To say best WR in camp thus far after (20?) articles stating his struggles monday thru friday isn't reasonable. This is why that is a poorly done article.
That very same article mentions his comfort level with the offense. That was not the case then either. The previous week he made a few mistakes which had Brady on him and the reporters taking note. He also botched up fielding punts. Also that week, Talib had a beautiful INT due to Boyce's mistake. None of this displays comfort in the offense.
NOW Boyce has spent more time at each position than any other WR and as the return guy. He could absolutely be the WR that knows all the positions best now. That was clearly not the case then as evidenced by a ton of other articles.
That very same writer has not written another Boyce is best article since. He was the lone one and hasn't said it since. EBF found one guy to say it and has been hanging on that article ever since.
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