Mustang Man
Footballguy
I heard this 3 or 4 days ago on a local Washington radio station but then quiet for the next few days. Now I just saw it on a promo for Cold Pizza. Lets discuss
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Larry Johnson to Dallas (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mustang Man
- Start date
The Shizzle
Footballguy
Yeah, lets discuss Cold Pizza as a credible news source.
Mustang Man
Footballguy
Is there a reason there is zero chance of this happening? I have not been paying to close attention the last 2 months or so. I know Dallas has 2 # 1's next season (CLEV Aand Dallas) and they are not very happy with JJ. I believe this is the last year of his contract.
faulkfan
Footballguy
LJ is a stud, but why would Dal. want to pay him what he's gonna want when they already have a solid RB combo in Jones and Barber? Are one of those two going to be included in what goes back to KC? I also have serious doubts about the credibility of the Cold Pizza crew unless you're talking about who's wearing who at the ESPYs.
NorrisB
Footballguy
A 2nd rounder + MB3 is the most Id offer. Id try and see if theyd bite on JJ + 2nd
Philly Hater
Footballguy
I don't think that there's any way that Carl Peterson would take anything less than one of those 1st rounders. And I think there's just as small a chance that they would settle for JJ. They've already got a speedy back in Bennett. Barber is the better fit. If this rumor has any legs at all, I'd bet money that it takes a 1st and Barber.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
LJ wants LT money and wants it NOW, so unless the 'Boys are willing to pony up some mega coin, I don't see this happening no matter what the trade involves in terms of players/picks.
Mustang Man
Footballguy
I could see Dallas's #1 pick( Dallas is not trading that Clev #1) and a future pick depending on what LJ does this year. I doubt Dallas trades MB3. I know they would love to move JJ though. My thinking is the Chiefs will want to rebuild with picks.
Mustang Man
Footballguy
I think we all know Jerry Jones is not scared about paying big buck for studs. I do not think a big contract would be the problem it is just would LJ be a good fit with a big contract for what they are setting up to do in the next few seasons. Not sure.
Mustang Man
Footballguy
LJ deserves LT money and someone will pay it. He is the real deal and if Dallas pulls the trigger on this. Who is going to be able to stop LJ, TO, GLENN, WITTEN, ROMO? That is alot of offensive fire power to go along with a pretty darn good defense.
Warhogs
Footballguy
I would not say a deal is not possible. If the KC front office has a made a decision that they are not willing to pay LJ the kind of money he wants next year they might consider moving him now. They probably want picks but might also look at Barber or JJ. What kind of compensation would KC receive for LJ if he signed with another team next season? Also, I assume KC could put a franchise tag on him. Of course LJ wants his money and is not going to be a happy training camper if he does not get a big contract.
oddball
Smart
First, stop listening to the idiots on espn. Second, do some minor research before starting sensationalistic threads.Signed,
A cowboy fan who would hate to see this happen
-OZ-
Footballguy
If they have cap room, why not?Their WRs are getting old, TO and Glenn do not have that much longer in the league. Their OL is pretty decent, Witten a stud, Romo looks good, but LJ would make him better. The defense should be strong next year as well. While I like the JJ/MB3 combo, LJ is the type of player that pushes Dallas into the Super Bowl, I'm not convinced their current combo can. I seriously doubt this happens, but if Jones wants a Super Bowl now, this is the way to get it. JJ + Dallas's 1st should work from their perspective. I don't know that Peterson would jump on it, but saving the $, moving a potential headache, and getting a 1st sounds like a decent move. I'd almost feel bad for Gonzo, as the only star left on that offense. Maybe they should move him to Philly
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
It would be funny for the Cowboys to do the Herschel Walker trade in reverse now.
Not sure of their cap situation, but anything is possible with Jerry Jones at the helm.
Not sure of their cap situation, but anything is possible with Jerry Jones at the helm.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
That would be one heck of an offense in Dallas if they brought Larry Johnson in too.
Joe T
Footballguy
LJ <> Herschel
munchkin
Footballguy
I am sure Jerry Jones is intrigued by the possibilities of LJ in the backfield. He would take a lot of heat off of Romo and would help the passing game immensely. Barber + JJ < LJ in terms of on field presence no matter what the stats say. Jones' ego may be pushing on his business sense to make this trade. I think that either JJ or Barber + Dallas's (not Cleveland's) pick would get the trade done from KC's perspective but LJ expecting LT money is un-realistic and is likely a deal breaker. Maybe the possibility of winning a title and being on much better team will sway LJ to re-think his asking price. What are LJ's options if he doesn't move. How long can he sit out? He is under contract for two more years. Does he subject himself to eight in the box defenses and the physical abuse that comes with it for two more years? He can't not play for two years. If he comes off as a total malcontent and puts up crappy numbers his value will be shot on the open market. His value to a team like Dallas or another highly competitive team may never be greater. LJ has some stake in being reasonable too. He is not growing into a great team like LT did; KC is a rebuilding team and likely won't be good for a couple of years. Despite what Herm says they have a lot of work to do with their offensive line and QB. KC has a strong fan base and could put up with a lesser back (JJ or Barber) in the backfield for a couple of years. The two first rounders would help them quite a bit.In short, this is a trade that could benefit both the teams and the player.
sholditch
Footballguy
McFadden could be just as good in the pros and has much less wear on his body. Like a lot of people said this comes down to whether Jones wants to make a play for the Superbowl this season.Mustang Man
Footballguy
Finally someone with a bit of reason. This a has a chance of going down and being a upgrade for Dallas. Dallas's 1st rounder and JJ<<<< LJI mean come on Dallas stole that clev 1st rounder. They traded down and still was able to get who they would have selected where they traded out of. Spencer
Bankerguy
Footballguy
I posted this in the other thread earlier today.....as to why i don't see it happening. Keep in mind that Dallas faces the challenge of re-signing 2 potentially big contracts in the next little bit. Romo if he plays well is going to get extended and get "paid". The other is Terrence Newman. He will not be cheap.LJ is going to want a big pay, and I don't see Dallas doing this. It's not that much of an upgrade and the money doesn't make sense. The other factor is the Cleveland draft pick. I am willing to bet Dallas makes a huge run at McFadden next year. Just my $0.02.
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Family Matters
Footballguy
I'm not advacating for or against a trade but here's an interesting take:
Would Dallas be willing to make a trade for LJ? I'm sure they would if the price was reasonable. Defining reasonable is the key. KC has been known to under pay for other team's guys and oversell their guys. There inlies the greatest hurddle of all. KC will likely want more than most reasonable teams would be willing to pay for him. Remember the Trent Green episode?
So a deal is not out the question in terms of Dallas interest, I'm sure. Why wouldn't they want a great back to go with that offense. Right now that's the biggest question mark they have is their RB's. Didn't they sign TO? Bigtime player with bigtime headaches and off filed issues? The ultimate "me" guy. Of course they did. LJ is very doable as far Jones is concerned. And what coach would say "I don't want LJ"? Of course they would agree to that. That's a career making trade.
For those thinking they might have a shot at McFadden or some other college player that might be good, remember that LJ is already proven. In fact he's doing what most guys can't by being a true work horse. He's a unique proven quality that takes the guessing game out of the draft. I'm sure McFadden will be good but to think they would pass on LJ for a chance at someone they might not get just doesn't make good business sense. Dallas wants to win now!
But the problem is and will be KC and their high asking price. They're demands will make a reasonable trade nearly impossible. A team would likely have to overpay in order to acquire him. And what team would do that? What team would something so carzy as to overpay for a stud back like LJ? What team would be crazy enough to do that? Maybe a team crazy enough to go after TO? Maybe.
Would Dallas be willing to make a trade for LJ? I'm sure they would if the price was reasonable. Defining reasonable is the key. KC has been known to under pay for other team's guys and oversell their guys. There inlies the greatest hurddle of all. KC will likely want more than most reasonable teams would be willing to pay for him. Remember the Trent Green episode?
So a deal is not out the question in terms of Dallas interest, I'm sure. Why wouldn't they want a great back to go with that offense. Right now that's the biggest question mark they have is their RB's. Didn't they sign TO? Bigtime player with bigtime headaches and off filed issues? The ultimate "me" guy. Of course they did. LJ is very doable as far Jones is concerned. And what coach would say "I don't want LJ"? Of course they would agree to that. That's a career making trade.
For those thinking they might have a shot at McFadden or some other college player that might be good, remember that LJ is already proven. In fact he's doing what most guys can't by being a true work horse. He's a unique proven quality that takes the guessing game out of the draft. I'm sure McFadden will be good but to think they would pass on LJ for a chance at someone they might not get just doesn't make good business sense. Dallas wants to win now!
But the problem is and will be KC and their high asking price. They're demands will make a reasonable trade nearly impossible. A team would likely have to overpay in order to acquire him. And what team would do that? What team would something so carzy as to overpay for a stud back like LJ? What team would be crazy enough to do that? Maybe a team crazy enough to go after TO? Maybe.
Bankerguy
Footballguy
From Vela..the best writer imo that covers the Cowboys....
Crazy from the Heat — the Larry Johnson to Dallas Rumor
By Rafael Vela
You’ve head it. I’ve heard it. It’s fun. It provokes discussion, but what chance is there that Larry Johnson become a Cowboy, in exchange for Flozell Adams and Julius Jones, or some permutation thereof?
Practically none. Let’s see if we can diffuse some arguments:
1. Dallas would be trading two players who could walk next year in Adams and Jones. True, but let’s remember:
– Left tackles, even decent ones like Adams, are much harder to find than good running backs. Dallas is high on Pat McQuistan, with cause, but how many starts does he have? We all recall how the line fell part two years ago when Adams went down, right?
Why risk Tony Romo’s future — and that’s what you put at stake leaving LT in an unproven’s hands — trading Adams away? This is Tony’s show-me season and he needs the most support possible. Even if Dallas plans on letting Flozell walk after this year, he offers them certainty on the blind side. Is two to three good years of Johnson — at best — worth risking ten years of Romo?
It’s not even worth considering in my opinion.
2. Why would Dallas want Larry Johnson anyway? Yeah, he’s been a great back the past two years, but his stellar ‘05 was vastly different from his ‘06
‘05 — 336 carries, 1750 yards, 5.2 average;
‘06 — 416 carries, 1789 yards, 4.3 average;
In other words, Larry Johnson replicated his 2005 season last year. Then, Herman Edwards ordered him to carry on 80 more plays where his lineman fell down at the snap, leaving poor Larry to slam headfirst into NFL front lines. He’s so good he averaged half a yard per play. Four feet or so.
He’s not a shifty runner. He’s the next incarnation of Eddie George. And for those with short memories, Eddie could turn the corner when he joined the pros. Then, in 2000 he carried the ball 403 times. He was never the same again. Neither was Jamal Lewis after the Ravens put 695 carries on his odometer in consecutive years. He’s been injury prone and ordinary ever since. Baltimore swapped him out for Willis McGahee, just three seasons after he gained 2066 yards.
Johnson has 724 carries the past two seasons. He wants a contract with $24 million guaranteed — at least.
You pay contracts on calculated future production, not as a reward for past performance, especially for another team.
The Cowboys face negotiations for Romo and Terence Newman. They’re going to command huge salaries, but play at positions where there’s a good chance they’ll play the duration of their new deals at high levels.
What are the odds you’ll get more than two to three quality seasons from Johnson? Then you’re paying franchise money for a mediocre back. I’ve seen Earl Campbell, George Rogers, George and Lewis go down this path. When they’re done, they fade quickly.
Sorry you Johnson rooters, but the more I think about this deal, the more ridiculous it seems.
Crazy from the Heat — the Larry Johnson to Dallas Rumor
By Rafael Vela
You’ve head it. I’ve heard it. It’s fun. It provokes discussion, but what chance is there that Larry Johnson become a Cowboy, in exchange for Flozell Adams and Julius Jones, or some permutation thereof?
Practically none. Let’s see if we can diffuse some arguments:
1. Dallas would be trading two players who could walk next year in Adams and Jones. True, but let’s remember:
– Left tackles, even decent ones like Adams, are much harder to find than good running backs. Dallas is high on Pat McQuistan, with cause, but how many starts does he have? We all recall how the line fell part two years ago when Adams went down, right?
Why risk Tony Romo’s future — and that’s what you put at stake leaving LT in an unproven’s hands — trading Adams away? This is Tony’s show-me season and he needs the most support possible. Even if Dallas plans on letting Flozell walk after this year, he offers them certainty on the blind side. Is two to three good years of Johnson — at best — worth risking ten years of Romo?
It’s not even worth considering in my opinion.
2. Why would Dallas want Larry Johnson anyway? Yeah, he’s been a great back the past two years, but his stellar ‘05 was vastly different from his ‘06
‘05 — 336 carries, 1750 yards, 5.2 average;
‘06 — 416 carries, 1789 yards, 4.3 average;
In other words, Larry Johnson replicated his 2005 season last year. Then, Herman Edwards ordered him to carry on 80 more plays where his lineman fell down at the snap, leaving poor Larry to slam headfirst into NFL front lines. He’s so good he averaged half a yard per play. Four feet or so.
He’s not a shifty runner. He’s the next incarnation of Eddie George. And for those with short memories, Eddie could turn the corner when he joined the pros. Then, in 2000 he carried the ball 403 times. He was never the same again. Neither was Jamal Lewis after the Ravens put 695 carries on his odometer in consecutive years. He’s been injury prone and ordinary ever since. Baltimore swapped him out for Willis McGahee, just three seasons after he gained 2066 yards.
Johnson has 724 carries the past two seasons. He wants a contract with $24 million guaranteed — at least.
You pay contracts on calculated future production, not as a reward for past performance, especially for another team.
The Cowboys face negotiations for Romo and Terence Newman. They’re going to command huge salaries, but play at positions where there’s a good chance they’ll play the duration of their new deals at high levels.
What are the odds you’ll get more than two to three quality seasons from Johnson? Then you’re paying franchise money for a mediocre back. I’ve seen Earl Campbell, George Rogers, George and Lewis go down this path. When they’re done, they fade quickly.
Sorry you Johnson rooters, but the more I think about this deal, the more ridiculous it seems.
Mr. Bill O'Reilly
Footballguy
Getting LJ would be a brilliant move by Dallas if they could do it. They'd be instant superbowl contenders which last time I checked was the ultimate goal in the NFL. It would be borderline ######ed not to try and get him. While both of the 'boys backs have potential, they aren't in the same class as LJ. Dallas has a terrific young defense and with the aquisition of LJ, they'd leapfrog the Patriots (IMO) for Superbowl favorites. Can you imagine the talent on both sides of the ball? LJ, TO, Glenn, Witten, Romo, and that other TE (Fasano?)... That's scary.
Sure LJ will want paid, who doesn't? But he's worth the money-he's a beast.
Sure LJ will want paid, who doesn't? But he's worth the money-he's a beast.
Donny Loved Bowling
Footballguy
Dallas 1st rounder plus MB3
Is that reasonable?
Is that reasonable?
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
yeah, i'm sure KC would be all over getting a backup goalline RB and a future pick for LJ.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
why not just sign Turner next year?
Warhogs
Footballguy
I agree that the picky part would be the teams agreeing on his worth. Remember Indy couldn't get I think it was a 4th for Edge a couple seasons ago because of what his contract would cost? A trade would make sense so it comes down to what both sides view as fair. Sure Dallas might have to pay for a big LJ contract but with the age of guys like Glenn and TO they might have some big contracts coming off the books soon too? I really do not know what type of contracts some of their older high priced players have.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Sadly, this article really proves this author doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to RB's. Frankly it's a bit embarrassing to put this in type and sign your name to it.It comes back to the age old question, "Is the glass half empty or half full"? Anytime you want to make a point you can find a refernece that appears on the surface to support your arguement. But he misses the obvious. Once in while a RB comes along that's different. LT is a great example of someone that has changes what we think about RB's. Faulk was alot like LT. LT is even better. LJ is not as shifty as LT but he has tremendous power and a nice blend of speed that makes him unique. To suggest that based on 1 criteria, carries, that LJ will be George then you have to lump LT in there as well. No one has had more touches that LT so I guess we should dump hum as well. In fact a few on this board said that after his 2nd and 3rd season. But guess what? He's fine. There was no evidence to suggest he was breaking down. There is no evidence to suggest LJ is breaking down.
Now the best part of this authors arguement may be that he states you may not get more than 2-3 quality seasons from LJ. I would like to know what he defines as "quality". If it's what he did the last 2 years then he's right. He probably won't have more than 2-3 more years of that. I'll gladly take it. Most RB's are only good for about 4-5 quality years because that's the nature of the beast. I'll gladly take 3 more years of LJ and whatever else he has after that.
BTW-anyone think McFadden can do more? Seriuosly? With that little freaglie frame? I'd be very worried for him.
Mr. Bill O'Reilly
Footballguy
Because TO would be a year older and LJ > Turner. Also, who says SD doesn't trade Turner this season and he signs a big contract?Turner has been terrific as a backup but LJ has proven he can carry a load (and what a load!)
Bankerguy
Footballguy
A lot of Cowboys insiders are excited about about Pat McQuistan (LT) who was drafted in the 7th round I believe. However, if the Cowboys are serious at making a SB run and getting LJ, I don't see how losing Flozell helps accomplish this.Dallas keeps their 2 first rouders and Flo. I see no way for Dallas and KC to make this work so both go away happy. The Cowboys are 1 year away from taking a run at Lombardi. McFadden is the guy they will look at getting.
Mustang Man
Footballguy
These are good points but he only has 892 carries as he was not used early in his career behind Holmes. George had 1360 carries going into his 400+ carry season LJ had 476. LJ has alot in his tank 3-4 top years and I doubt Dallas runs him more then 350 times. All I am saying is he would be a big time upgrade. It all depends on what they would have to give up. I am just speechless when people say he is not much of an upgrade over JJ amd MB3. Just crazy
Bankerguy
Footballguy
From a straight talent stand point no doubt....no arguement here.The problem for me is the "Value".... Compare the dollars to the production. I like getting McFadden at rookie dollars much more than giving up assets to a guy with a somewhat questionable character, who has a lot of carries, and a guy who benefited from running behind a fantastic O-line.As a fan.....I would NOT be happy with acquiring LJ unless we hose KC on the deal. Again....I would be shocked to see it go down.
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JaxBill
Footballguy
Agreed. As an outsider (and an Eagles fan), Flozell has been their best lineman for the past few years. The Cowboys seemed to really suffer when he went down to injury in '05.
I confess to knowing nothing about McQuistan, except to say that in general I'm skeptical of linemen who impress in non-contact practices.
Mustang Man
Footballguy
Fair enough I get you are against a deal unless Dallas does not over pay. I have to disagree with him having a lot of carries and playing behind a great o-line last season though, cause man that offense struggled and every defense keyed on him on most every play. He still got it done. He is a can't miss talent and McFadden sure would have a rookie salary but is not a can't miss and will Dallas even be able to draft him. Plus Dallas will have to wait another season to get him. TO and Glenn are getting up there in age. Thanks for showing the other side to this. Good discussion. Either way Dallas should have a good season.
McFadden at rookie dollars? You mean top 5 pick, 50 million, 25 guaranteed? Those rookie dollars? And who says you even get Dmac? And so you sacrifice this year with a two headed monster, which did jack for you last year?TO has 2 years left tops. Glenn is almost done. You have 1-2 year window to make a serious run. LJ is a big upgrade. And he's an even bigger upgrade over Dmac in his rookie year. And the KC oline was not fantastic last year. Probably the worst set of tackles in the league. Horrible QB play. No WRs. Yeah LJ was living the high life.Clearly getting LJ would give them a better chance to win a SB. This year, and next. And Dallas is worried about character? They did sign TO right?
Josh the FunkDOC
Footballguy
This guy basically ripped off Football Outsiders and didn't even properly state the idea here.
A running back with a season of 370+ carries will almost always decline afterward, and the effects get worse as the carries on that season increase. Except Eric Dickerson and LT...and the funny thing is, they just recently figured out the exact reason why that is. It's something a lot of "purists" can't stand: Ducking out of bounds.
Dickerson, of course, was hated by the media throughout his career for doing just that. And, in studying game logs, the crew at FO learned that LT goes out of bounds more often than any other RB today. Actually, it was Emmitt Smith who told him to start doing this; Smith's own decline began after two 370+ carry seasons. Looking at the out-of-bounds data for all RBs suggests that this is indeed effective in extending careers.
LJ, on the other hand, does not shy away from contact. He specifically prides himself on being "tough" and "physical" IIRC. This, combined with his record-setting workload last season, is why I will not own him in any fantasy league this year and why nobody in their right mind should trade for him IMO.
-Josh
A running back with a season of 370+ carries will almost always decline afterward, and the effects get worse as the carries on that season increase. Except Eric Dickerson and LT...and the funny thing is, they just recently figured out the exact reason why that is. It's something a lot of "purists" can't stand: Ducking out of bounds.
Dickerson, of course, was hated by the media throughout his career for doing just that. And, in studying game logs, the crew at FO learned that LT goes out of bounds more often than any other RB today. Actually, it was Emmitt Smith who told him to start doing this; Smith's own decline began after two 370+ carry seasons. Looking at the out-of-bounds data for all RBs suggests that this is indeed effective in extending careers.
LJ, on the other hand, does not shy away from contact. He specifically prides himself on being "tough" and "physical" IIRC. This, combined with his record-setting workload last season, is why I will not own him in any fantasy league this year and why nobody in their right mind should trade for him IMO.
-Josh
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Urinal Mint
Footballguy
I don't even want LJ on this team. They can roll with Jones/Barber just fine if the blocking is there. LJ isn't going to make a pro bowler out of any linemen.
burd
Footballguy
Dallas has two #1 picks next year. Knowing how much Jerry Jones is willing to risk to win (T.O.), I see this as a definite possibility. I don't see anything wrong w/ Dallas sending a #1 pick for LJ.
I think Dallas would do what it takes to make it happen. I think KC is hesitating for many reasons, one being fan backlash on the possible dismantaling of a once offensive juggernaut. You gotta fill them seats if you want to stay competitive.
BTW, Cold Pizza is sports fluff ... they're as credible a sporting news source as Extra is as a news source.
I think Dallas would do what it takes to make it happen. I think KC is hesitating for many reasons, one being fan backlash on the possible dismantaling of a once offensive juggernaut. You gotta fill them seats if you want to stay competitive.
BTW, Cold Pizza is sports fluff ... they're as credible a sporting news source as Extra is as a news source.
Rookie dollars for a top 5 pick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most 1st rounders.Do you think Tampa Bay is happy with the bankroll they gave Caddy and his results? How about Benson and the Bears? Sure, maybe they turn it around, but if I were the Cowboys, I would swing this trade and try and get at least 2 good years out of LJ.The Cowboys were a botched snap away from going further in the playoffs last year and I would have given them a shot against any team in the NFC. If they could replace JJ with LJ, have Romo for the whole year, they have to be one of the NFC favorites. I would take that any day of the week over a potential rookie RB. Sure, there are LT's out there, but McFadden is not a proven commodity in the NFL yet.The cap in the NFL keeps going up every year, just look at the # of teams with tons of cap room now. If I were Jerry Jones, I would most definitely try to get LJ and take a $$$ risk at winning a Super Bowl.Skip Bayless will say anything for attention. I remember him in the Chicago Trib for constantly claiming Jordan was overrated. The guy isnt a journalist, he's a professional provacateur. There are only a handful of teams in the NFL less likely to deal for LJ than Dallas is.
Dallas was 3rd in rushing TDs last season, better than KC. Why would they want to overpay for a new guy when they have 2 guys doing the job? Its senseless. If Dallas is gonna deal they will be looking defense.
Dallas was 3rd in rushing TDs last season, better than KC. Why would they want to overpay for a new guy when they have 2 guys doing the job? Its senseless. If Dallas is gonna deal they will be looking defense.
I don't know how creidible the rumors were but there was a lot of buzz around Dallas regarding the Turner deal, and they monuvered as best they could to get a shoot at McFadden next year and now this...
It's looking more and more like neither Jones or Barber are apart of the long term backfield plans in Dallas.
It's looking more and more like neither Jones or Barber are apart of the long term backfield plans in Dallas.
CA_7
Footballguy
If you think LJ is worth a 1st rounder you've been making too many FF trades.
Two years ago, Seattle and Indianapolis couldn't get a 2nd for Alexander and James, respectively. Both RBs were equal or younger in age than LJ at the time, weren't coming off 400+ carries and weren't expecting an LT size contract.
Two years ago, Seattle and Indianapolis couldn't get a 2nd for Alexander and James, respectively. Both RBs were equal or younger in age than LJ at the time, weren't coming off 400+ carries and weren't expecting an LT size contract.
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