Late term abortions (3 Viewers)

[timschochet]

Context is important and in my experience you’re a smart guy.  You understand this.  You’re playing the syntax game.  It was very clear what Tim was saying when he typed this.  

And I explained it. And Shader got it. 

 

[timschochet]

And I also wrote that Doook’s opinion, defending abortion in all circumstances, was irrelevant as well. If your opinion on the question of abortion is absolutist one way or the other, then any input you might have on late term abortion in particular is going to be irrelevant. 

 

[shader]

My recommendation for Dems is that they need to run far away from late-term abortions.  Nothing will galvanize the republicans like that. They will hold their noses and flock to the polls to vote for Trump, imo

 

[dkp993]

Nope"

"it's not a pizza until it comes out of the oven" is a Seinfeld reference from an episode about pro choicers and pro lifers.

You probably had to be there

Like Trump tweets there’s a Seinfeld episode for everything.  

 

[shader]

But don’t you hold the same position, except 180 degrees the other way?  It’s murder, period?

Yes.  And if you can imagine the distaste that you likely feel when you hear of a serial killer killing and dismembering his victims, you might be able to empathize with the distaste that I feel for those that have abortions.

 

[dkp993]

My recommendation for Dems is that they need to run far away from late-term abortions.  Nothing will galvanize the republicans like that. They will hold their noses and flock to the polls to vote for Trump, imo

This is astute political advice.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

To be clear I don’t think he needs to stretch the truth or lie.  Simply stated that dems support abortion up to the day before birth.  Make them own it.  Easy.

Of course you realize Trump holds no personal views or beliefs on abortion himself, right? He doesn't believe in the libertarian/liberal argument that a person has control over his own medical decisions, and he doesn't believe that a fetus is a living child. Trump's a moral, philosophical vacuum. All he sees is political opportunity.

Which raises my question - why is this a thing right now? Didn't NY state just pass a new law allowing late term abortions? Is that what's going on here? New York?

 

[timschochet]

My recommendation for Dems is that they need to run far away from late-term abortions.  Nothing will galvanize the republicans like that. They will hold their noses and flock to the polls to vote for Trump, imo

This could be. Although it certainly seems to me that social conservatives (those who care the most about this issue) are already strongly in favor of Trump and will be highly motivated to vote in 2020 anyhow. Not sure that anything the Democrats say or do will increase their fervor which will be high no matter what. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

And I also wrote that Doook’s opinion, defending abortion in all circumstances, was irrelevant as well. If your opinion on the question of abortion is absolutist one way or the other, then any input you might have on late term abortion in particular is going to be irrelevant. 

Can you explain why this is a debate right now?

 

[timschochet]

Which raises my question - why is this a thing right now? Didn't NY state just pass a new law allowing late term abortions? Is that what's going on here? New York?

Yes, and the Virginia governor issued a statement that many took great offense to (see the OP.) So Trump sees an opportunity. 

 

[shader]

And the problem with this response becomes the “pro-life side” ignoring the real situations where an abortion is necessary & they make absolute statements like “those that have an abortion are guilty of murder.”  There’s no logic: it’s all-or-nothing.

My wife’s aunt had a very difficult time getting pregnant, and when she finally did, about 4 months in, she was told her unborn daughter had a disease (mermaids syndrome, or something), tha5nwas very likely to be fatal.  In addition, there were some other complications where her life was at risk, too.  She desperately wanted to have a child, but ultimately decided to have the abortion, because of the danger to her life & the very sad prognosis of infant death, or a very painful life for her child.

Is she a murderer?

I’m not going to talk about one of your relatives, especially without knowing her situation.  I won’t label someone a murderer if society doesn’t view it as murder.  Our attitudes can be shaped by what society views as right and wrong. My opinion that abortion is murder is my opinion.  But I am not going to call people murderers because I try not to be judgmental. (If I’ve done so at some point in this or any other conversation I apologize)

Usually in these discussions the most extreme and gut-wrenching cases are thrown out.  While those are awful, there are also hundreds of thousands of abortions that occur because a parent doesn’t want a baby.  That’s the big issue imo.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yes, and the Virginia governor issued a statement that many took great offense to (see the OP.) So Trump sees an opportunity. 

Thanks, Tim. - Yeah, that's the whole thing. Trump IMO is totally vacuous on this subject, IMO it's a pretty fair chance he has paid for or sought or encouraged an abortion or more in his time. - It's a wedge issue just when he needs it. This is all about fundraising and throwing Dems and Gopers into melee.

 

[NREC34]

My recommendation for Dems is that they need to run far away from late-term abortions.  Nothing will galvanize the republicans like that. They will hold their noses and flock to the polls to vote for Trump, imo

It’ll turn off moderates and independents too. Extreme on either side is no good and I wish all them were made totally irrelevant.

That Schultz guy sucks but there ought to be a moderate choice to vote for. 

 

[timschochet]

I won’t label someone a murderer if society doesn’t view it as murder.  Our attitudes can be shaped by what society views as right and wrong. My opinion that abortion is murder is my opinion.  But I am not going to call people murderers because I try not to be judgmental. 

Putting aside the question of abortion- this is an absolutely fascinating point of view. Do I agree with it? I’m not sure, but now I’m going to have to give it serious thought: can one have moral absolutes and yet at the same time not judge others because society disagrees with one’s moral absolutes? 

I need to think some more about this. What a fine question. 

 

[timschochet]

I don’t have very many moral absolutes, I don’t think, but I have some.  

Murder is wrong and evil.  (though obviously in this instance, and possibly others, we disagree on what murder is defined as.) 

Rape is wrong and evil. 

Child molestation is wrong and evil. 

I’m not limited to these- there’s a lot more- but these are pretty clear in my mind as absolutes. They should be true regardless of society. If a society existed in which child molestation was considered the norm, would I be forgiving of individual child molesters from that society? I’m pretty sure I would not. 

 

[sho nuff]

Its not really a generalization.  I am not aware of a single democrat law maker that is against abortion, period.  I've also not heard any speak up against the newly adopted NY legislation-If there have been, I'm willing to hear it.

Being pro choice doesn’t necessarily mean you are not against abortion or that you support abortion up until birth.  In addition it leaves out that there are reasons to do so (viability of the child and health of the mother).

As with most things it’s not a black and white issue...and pushing it as one is not a fully truthful argument out of Trump.

 

[timschochet]

As with most things it’s not a black and white issue...and pushing it as one is not a fully truthful argument out of Trump.

True but as I pointed out, he is only following a time honored American political tradition of painting the other side as extreme. 

I have watched Maxine Waters give a speech describing anyone who opposes affirmative action as a racist. Now, the Democrats, in their wisdom, have not made Ms Waters the President, so that is an important distinction. Still, she is a prominent voice, and other Democrats rarely criticize her for her extremism. 

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

I don’t know the details of the Casey Anthony story. Never followed that. 

I find it immoral because in the 3rd trimester it’s nearly a full born baby. If you’re killing it for non- medical reasons, that seems wrong to me. 

It seems wrong because it is wrong.

 

[jon_mx]

Personally I have always believed that if a pregnancy results in hydrocephalus, or something like that that would result in a brain dead baby, there is no reason that a late term abortion shouldn’t be permitted. Especially if the birth would harm the health of the mother or possibly risk her ability to have more children. My understanding is that most late term abortions involve something like this, though there may be exceptions. 

That is often said by Hillary and other pro-abortion/pro-choice politicians, but the truth is quite the opposite.  First off, the later the abortion, the riskier it is to the mother.  The reasons given for a late term abortion are similar to the reason for the earlier abortions, they don't want the child.  In surveys done, health of the mother does not crack the top 8 reasons that are listed for having late-term abortions.  It makes for nice spin, but the claim is made on wishful thinking and contrary to the limited data which is available on the subject.  

 

[dgreen]

Putting aside the question of abortion- this is an absolutely fascinating point of view. Do I agree with it? I’m not sure, but now I’m going to have to give it serious thought: can one have moral absolutes and yet at the same time not judge others because society disagrees with one’s moral absolutes? 

I need to think some more about this. What a fine question. 

If a society existed in which child molestation was considered the norm, would I be forgiving of individual child molesters from that society? I’m pretty sure I would not. 

What does it mean to "judge other"? What does it mean to "be forgiving"? Are the two linked? Can you judge and forgive?

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Why is it immoral, to you? 

If a child is unwanted, to the point where a person would consider going to a doctor and having that child cut/sucked out of their body, there is a high probability that the child is going to suffer in life and that from the suffering said child may actually harm others in society.  To me it is immoral to have that child, to neglect that child when it is being raised, to not offer that child resources, to not give that child the best opportunity to live a happy life and unfortunately, with many of these aborted children, the potential parent will have neither the time, resources, or care to properly rear that child.  Would it have been more moral for Casey Anthony to have her child and kill it later because it was cramping her lifestyle or would it have been more moral for Casey Anthony to have had an abortion? 

It would have been more moral for her to give her daughter up for adoption. Also, it's a moral slippery slope when someone (anyone) passes judgment on a the likelihood of a child's long term outlook in life and makes a decision to terminate that life. There are a myriad of situations that could be used to make this point - and I think the more liberal minded individuals of this forum would be appalled at the reasons one could come up with to not give an individual a chance at life.

 

[timschochet]

That is often said by Hillary and other pro-abortion/pro-choice politicians, but the truth is quite the opposite.  First off, the later the abortion, the riskier it is to the mother.  The reasons given for a late term abortion are similar to the reason for the earlier abortions, they don't want the child.  In surveys done, health of the mother does not crack the top 8 reasons that are listed for having late-term abortions.  It makes for nice spin, but the claim is made on wishful thinking and contrary to the limited data which is available on the subject.  

I’ve certainly read differently. 

Earlier I linked to an article from Reason which had the exact opposite conclusion that you just claimed. The only thing Reason and Washington Examiner have in common is that neither source was able to cite any statistics whatsoever. Not limited data as you claim, NO data. Both articles cite the word of experts. 

Without sufficient data, naturally you and I are going to end up leaning on whoever agrees with our predispositions. I get that. But even so, jon, I really have trouble believing that a lot of women go through 35+ weeks of pregnancy, with everything that entails, and then decide at the last second that they don’t want the baby. Does that make a lot of sense to you? Because it doesn’t to me. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Putting aside the question of abortion- this is an absolutely fascinating point of view. Do I agree with it? I’m not sure, but now I’m going to have to give it serious thought: can one have moral absolutes and yet at the same time not judge others because society disagrees with one’s moral absolutes? 

I need to think some more about this. What a fine question. 

I also think that’s a fascinating discussion but kind of pointless in this thread  - nobody really cares if people are passing judegement - they care whether it’s legal.

 

[timschochet]

What does it mean to "judge other"? What does it mean to "be forgiving"? Are the two linked? Can you judge and forgive?

Stop it! You’re giving me a headache. 

J/K

1. I’m not sure. 

2. I’m not sure. 

3. Maybe. 

4. Maybe. 

 

[jon_mx]

I’ve certainly read differently. 

Earlier I linked to an article from Reason which had the exact opposite conclusion that you just claimed. The only thing Reason and Washington Examiner have in common is that neither source was able to cite any statistics whatsoever. Not limited data as you claim, NO data. Both articles cite the word of experts. 

Without sufficient data, naturally you and I are going to end up leaning on whoever agrees with our predispositions. I get that. But even so, jon, I really have trouble believing that a lot of women go through 35+ weeks of pregnancy, with everything that entails, and then decide at the last second that they don’t want the baby. Does that make a lot of sense to you? Because it doesn’t to me. 

There is data.   The data consists of surveys,  in fact surveys done by organizations that are very in favor of abortions, and the surveys show that medical reasons is extremely rare to be cited as the reason for the late term abortion.  

 

[E Street Brat]

Now with the start of this topic (the NY law is the one that first had me about to discuss)...I think the comments were pretty awful.

Determining to "abort" after the child has been delivered, "kept comfortable" and/or resuscitated is pretty damn awful.

Im also not very comforatable with the non-doctor part of the NY law.

After the delivery it's no longer a matter of a women's right to choose. The choice has been made. It's no longer her body. 

 

[timschochet]

There is data.   The data consists of surveys,  in fact surveys done by organizations that are very in favor of abortions, and the surveys show that medical reasons is extremely rare to be cited as the reason for the late term abortion.  

Let’s suppose I agreed with this. What do you say to Henry Ford’s argument? I will find it and repost it. 

 

[timschochet]

The only reason these should be legal is so that doctors and patients can make important decisions regarding medical treatment in emergent or catastrophic situations.  

But they have to be legal for those reasons. 

Here you go, jon. What say you to this? 

 

[Henry Ford]

There is data.   The data consists of surveys,  in fact surveys done by organizations that are very in favor of abortions, and the surveys show that medical reasons is extremely rare to be cited as the reason for the late term abortion.  

I'd like to see that data.

 

[dgreen]

Why can't they only be legal in emergent and catastrophic situations and illegal in other situations? Would it be hard to write the law for that? Or hard to enforce it?

 

[jon_mx]

Here you go, jon. What say you to this? 

There should be medical exceptions in extreme cases.  The biggest problem is how to medically constrain it so it is really a life-threatening situation and not just some abortion doctor who will rubber stamp it as such.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Why can't they only be legal in emergent and catastrophic situations and illegal in other situations? Would it be hard to write the law for that? Or hard to enforce it?

Both.  

Define emergent and catastrophic in such a way as to encompass all the things you want to encompass and yet make illegal everything you want to.

 

[timschochet]

Why can't they only be legal in emergent and catastrophic situations and illegal in other situations? Would it be hard to write the law for that? Or hard to enforce it? 

I suspect the latter. Now according to the article on Tiller posted earlier, this was actually true for the state of Kansas, or something to that effect. 

But think about it for a second: you have a life threatening situation, and the doctor has to go to court to obtain permission from a judge? Is that at all practicable? 

 

[dgreen]

I'd like to see that data.

I haven't looked through much of it, but @jon_mx's linked Washington Examiner article linked to this study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1363/4521013. Which says:

• But data suggest that most women seeking later terminations are not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment.
  

 

[timschochet]

There should be medical exceptions in extreme cases.  The biggest problem is how to medically constrain it so it is really a life-threatening situation and not just some abortion doctor who will rubber stamp it as such.  

Again, is a judge supposed to decide this? And can we expect that the judge will have the adequate medical knowledge necessary to make an informed decision? 

 

[jon_mx]

I'd like to see that data.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1363/4521013

"Women aged 20–24 were more likely than those aged 25–34 to have a later abortion (odds ratio, 2.7), and women who discovered their pregnancy before eight weeks’ gestation were less likely than others to do so (0.1). Later abortion recipients experienced logistical delays (e.g., difficulty finding a provider and raising funds for the procedure and travel costs), which compounded other delays in receiving care. Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous."

Lots of reasons given for late-term abortion....none of them were for medical neccessity.  

 

[Henry Ford]

I haven't looked through much of it, but @jon_mx's linked Washington Examiner article linked to this study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1363/4521013. Which says:

• But data suggest that most women seeking later terminations are nDot doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment.
  

I know.  Read the reference.  Find me data that says what he says.  The references footnoted there do not link to a study on reasons for late term abortion.  There doesn't appear to be any data at all on that. In fact, the study that article links to says this:

Indeed, we know very little about women who seek later abortions. Random samples of abortion clients capture few women at gestations past the middle of the second trimester. 

 

[Henry Ford]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1363/4521013

"Women aged 20–24 were more likely than those aged 25–34 to have a later abortion (odds ratio, 2.7), and women who discovered their pregnancy before eight weeks’ gestation were less likely than others to do so (0.1). Later abortion recipients experienced logistical delays (e.g., difficulty finding a provider and raising funds for the procedure and travel costs), which compounded other delays in receiving care. Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous."

Lots of reasons given for late-term abortion....none of them were for medical neccessity.  

That's a results abstract.  You mentioned data.  I'd like to see it.  Because all of those things can be true and they can get abortions for medical reasons.

 

[timschochet]

I know.  Read the reference.  Find me data that says what he says.  The references footnoted there do not link to a study on reasons for late term abortion.  There doesn't appear to be any data at all on that. In fact, the study that article links to says this:

That was my point. I couldn’t find any data. 

But even if it’s true, I still think your argument posted earlier is valid. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Women were asked whether eight specific factors slowed them down in obtaining abortion care: not knowing they were pregnant, not knowing where to go for an abortion, difficulty getting to the abortion facility, raising money for travel costs, the cost of the procedure, difficulty securing insurance coverage, trouble deciding whether they wanted an abortion, and disagreeing with the man involved in the pregnancy on the decision to have an abortion.

So... they weren't asked if they had medical reasons for an abortion?

@jon_mx

Edit: also, most abortions performed for medical reasons will be performed incident to another appointment with another physician, not at a standalone clinic.  And this study was specifically following women from one clinic.

 

[dgreen]

I know.  Read the reference.  Find me data that says what he says.  The references footnoted there do not link to a study on reasons for late term abortion.  There doesn't appear to be any data at all on that. In fact, the study that article links to says this:

Actually, looks like the linked study excluded women who were in life endangerment:

• Our data are limited by the exclusion of women who sought later abortions on grounds of fetal anomaly or life endangerment.
  
• The current study addresses this question by analyzing data on women who sought and received an abortion at or after 20 weeks’ gestation for reasons other than fetal anomaly or life endangerment.
  

 

[jon_mx]

Again, is a judge supposed to decide this? And can we expect that the judge will have the adequate medical knowledge necessary to make an informed decision? 

There should be very definitive medical guidelines on when it is acceptable to do which should cover the vast majority of cases.  Now there will be very special circumstances left up to the doctor.  Not really sure if a court would ever get involved unless there was a doctor performing an abnormally large number of these, but if they did they would have to rely on expert testimony.    

 

[Henry Ford]

Actually, looks like the linked study excluded women who were in life endangerment:

• Our data are limited by the exclusion of women who sought later abortions on grounds of fetal anomaly or life endangerment.
  
• The current study addresses this question by analyzing data on women who sought and received an abortion at or after 20 weeks’ gestation for reasons other than fetal anomaly or life endangerment.
  

@jon_mx

I think we figured out why the incident rate of life endangerment or abortion for medical reasons was so low in your study.

 

[timschochet]

It seems to me that once you concede that there has to be exceptions for medical emergencies (as jon just did) you can’t leave that up to a judge to decide. Not enough time, not enough expertise. The only reasonable thing you can do is have late term abortions be legal. Henry Ford is right about this. 

If my logic is in error here, some one can show me. But I don’t see how this conclusion can be wrong. 

 

[Henry Ford]

It seems to me that once you concede that there has to be exceptions for medical emergencies (as jon just did) you can’t leave that up to a judge to decide. Not enough time, not enough expertise. The only reasonable thing you can do is have late term abortions be legal. Henry Ford is right about this. 

If my logic is in error here, some one can show me. But I don’t see how this conclusion can be wrong. 

This is my entire argument on the subject.  We have to have ethical doctors who do what they're supposed to, or at least do their best to do so.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Yeah, the study linked by jon specifically excluded the types of pregnancy we're talking about:

Our study has several important limitations. Our data are limited by the exclusion of women who sought later abortions on grounds of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. Because of waiting time for testing and diagnosis, delay in seeking care among that population likely differs significantly from the delays faced by women in our study

 

[jon_mx]

That's a results abstract.  You mentioned data.  I'd like to see it.  Because all of those things can be true and they can get abortions for medical reasons.

You can click the pdf on the link.  

 

[timschochet]

There should be very definitive medical guidelines on when it is acceptable to do which should cover the vast majority of cases.  Now there will be very special circumstances left up to the doctor.  Not really sure if a court would ever get involved unless there was a doctor performing an abnormally large number of these, but if they did they would have to rely on expert testimony.    

If a court doesn’t ever get involved then your restriction is meaningless, correct? Unless you want to have punishments after the fact (which would be extremely problematic for reasons I don’t really need to explain, right?) 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Context is important and in my experience you’re a smart guy.  You understand this.  You’re playing the syntax game.  It was very clear what Tim was saying when he typed this.  

You're also about 2 hours late but thanks

 

[Henry Ford]

You can click the pdf on the link.  

Keep reading the thread.