Lawyerguys School Me On Billable Hours (1 Viewer)

[Christo]

One key is how hours are billed. I have a buddy who is a lawyer, and the minimum he charges is 0.1 hours. So every e-mail he sends he charges at least 0.1 hours. So if he types one sentence and it takes 30 seconds - that's 0.1 hours billed.

I keep track of everything so it's reflected on my invoice. And I bill in 6 minute increments, too. But for stuff like that the hourly rate is always zero. It shows up on the invoice as "NO CHARGE." Clients love that ####.

 

[Gawain]

I keep track of everything so it's reflected on my invoice. And I bill in 6 minute increments, too. But for stuff like that the hourly rate is always zero. It shows up on the invoice as "NO CHARGE." Clients love that ####.

Do you show the # of emails, because that would really make an impression:

72 emails---No Charge looks more generous than Emails---No Charge

 

[Christo]

My firm actually started this way.  It's nice from a collection and client-relationship standpoint, but man can you take a bath in one if you error in your flat fee quote... 

Yep

 

[Christo]

Do you show the # of emails, because that would really make an impression:

72 emails---No Charge looks more generous than Emails---No Charge

If we exchange 72 e-mails close in time you better believe I'm billing for it.

 

[Zow]

I keep track of everything so it's reflected on my invoice. And I bill in 6 minute increments, too. But for stuff like that the hourly rate is always zero. It shows up on the invoice as "NO CHARGE." Clients love that ####.

One of the other partners as my firm really has this dialed in and swears by it.  Trying to pick it up myself as well because the client feedback is really good.  

ETA: He's even started including the copying fees, postage, etc. (all the stuff that our fee agreements permit us to bill for but we never actually bill for) and then showing them as no charge.  

 

[Zow]

Yep

I also found ethically stuck too in the flat fee cases where I was able to reach a quick resolution, especially in family law cases.  Despite the flat fee I'd still either feel compelled to do a fee look-back or be asked to do one and issue a refund whereas I'm stuck in the case where I could easily justify/absolutely earned twice the flat fee but am stuck because of the nature of flat fee agreements. 

 

[Otis]

This person made bad life choices. 

If you can't enjoy your Sundays when you're 75 and presumably have decades of mid 6 figures income in your history, it wasn't nearly worth it.

Maybe he loves his work.  

 

[Otis]

$320/hr for a paralegal. Nice racket.

Some of these folks are really good and experienced and  work really hard.  A bargain for big ticket matters. 

 

[Otis]

These are the people that give the industry a bad name.  I work with many law firms big and small and can give you a few of my biggest pet peeves.  Constantly needing 2-3 people on a call.  I don't need your two partners on a call where i am asking you a question.  I certainly do not need to pay for all three of you.  Bringing 2-3 people to meetings/lunches then billing me for it (see above).  Any finally, probably my biggest pet peeve is Sr Partners billing time (typically these guys are over $1M per hour) checking partners work.  If a partner or Sr Attorney needs that much oversight why am i paying them $600-$800 per hour for them.  I believe, and others may refute, that they are just adding time in too projects so they get their hours without actually adding any value.   

I actually disagree here. We produce better work product and more creative ideas and solutions when multiple lawyers contribute. And it’s not always the seniormost partner who adds the most valuable input to an issue or memo or other work product. So if you want the best advice/outcome, especially on a complex matter, team input is a must. Lawyers working alone in a vacuum, I don’t care who they are, just aren’t as effective. (If you’re talking about some small matter like your mortgage closing or a will, obviously a different story). 

 

[Otis]

Rounding is common. My comment only relates to the part where you said he billed 3 hours for a 1 hour flight.  That's obviously fraud and theft.  In most cases, I don't bill for travel unless I'm doing work on the plane. If I'm traveling for client A, and bring some work I do on the plane for client B, I'm not going to double bill, and I think doing so is more than just an ethical violation.

This. 

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I also found ethically stuck too in the flat fee cases where I was able to reach a quick resolution, especially in family law cases.  Despite the flat fee I'd still either feel compelled to do a fee look-back or be asked to do one and issue a refund whereas I'm stuck in the case where I could easily justify/absolutely earned twice the flat fee but am stuck because of the nature of flat fee agreements. 

I don't mean flat fee for a whole case. I mean flat fee per "action".  That's why I used the term,  menu.

So, divorce complaint draft file 800, motion without brief, 1500, motion with brief, 3500, summary judgment motion, 5000..... like that. I've been reviewing billing to figure out the right range and charge to make it profitable and fair.

 

[ShaqAttaq]

One key is how hours are billed. I have a buddy who is a lawyer, and the minimum he charges is 0.1 hours. So every e-mail he sends he charges at least 0.1 hours. So if he types one sentence and it takes 30 seconds - that's 0.1 hours billed.

We were on an hour flight to Vegas once and he billed 3 hours on that one hour flight.

i'm a consulting engineer. i have a similar 'minimum charges' for some of the things that i do. not nearly as precisely delineated as 0.1 hr/email sent though

 

[bigbottom]

One key is how hours are billed. I have a buddy who is a lawyer, and the minimum he charges is 0.1 hours. So every e-mail he sends he charges at least 0.1 hours. So if he types one sentence and it takes 30 seconds - that's 0.1 hours billed.

We were on an hour flight to Vegas once and he billed 3 hours on that one hour flight.

He shouldn’t bill each email if multiple emails are for the same client. That time should be aggregated. In other words, if he sends six emails on a client matter, and spends one minute on each, he should bill 0.1 hours, not 0.6.

And if each email your buddy sent was for a different client, he would have to send emails for 30 separate client matters in a single hour to get to his 3-hours billed mark. That seems unlikely, absent some really unique matter mix, and I can’t imagine that the emails in that situation are substantive enough to warrant billing them. 

 

[Politician Spock]

I'd join in on the dumping on lawyers.... but I believe a good chunk of what lawyers do is going to be automated with AI soon and a lot of legal services will be as simple as ordering an Uber, and about as cheap. 

 

[Otis]

I'd join in on the dumping on lawyers.... but I believe a good chunk of what lawyers do is going to be automated with AI soon and a lot of legal services will be as simple as ordering an Uber, and about as cheap. 

####!

 

[culdeus]

I'd join in on the dumping on lawyers.... but I believe a good chunk of what lawyers do is going to be automated with AI soon and a lot of legal services will be as simple as ordering an Uber, and about as cheap. 

Explain. 

 

[eoMMan]

I'd join in on the dumping on lawyers.... but I believe a good chunk of what lawyers do is going to be automated with AI soon and a lot of legal services will be as simple as ordering an Uber, and about as cheap. 

Indeed.I.Just.Got.My.Will.At.Legal.Zoom.0110100100101001

 

[Zow]

I don't mean flat fee for a whole case. I mean flat fee per "action".  That's why I used the term,  menu.

So, divorce complaint draft file 800, motion without brief, 1500, motion with brief, 3500, summary judgment motion, 5000..... like that. I've been reviewing billing to figure out the right range and charge to make it profitable and fair.

Ohhhh that makes more sense. 

 

[Christo]

Ohhhh that makes more sense. 

I do the same thing for my family law cases. Flat/capped rates for appearances and drafting motions/petitions. It's more difficult for business litigation.

 

[eoMMan]

Side question...

How much (or should I say how long) should a married couple with no kids pay a lawyer for a relatively simple will and any necessary living testament thingies that are needed?

The couple in question own a house, aren't in bad health, and aren't necessarily "loaded".

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Side question...

How much (or should I say how long) should a married couple with no kids pay a lawyer for a relatively simple will and any necessary living testament thingies that are needed?

The couple in question own a house, aren't in bad health, and aren't necessarily "loaded".

I'm not a real lawyer, all states vary, the facts and circumstances always are more important than you think and nothing you typed here helps in the grand scheme making everything I say worthless, and I actually did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once.  Didn't like it.  Wouldn't recommend.

I would charge $250.00 for something like that in New Jersey.  It takes me a week from start to finish if I want to take my time.  I can do it all in a day if I have to. Give me my completed estate planning homework ahead of time, and I get it you in and out of my office in an hour.

Ask me a question about an irrevocable living trust, or say the words, Suzy Orman said.... and I start charging by the hour.

 

[bigbottom]

He shouldn’t bill each email if multiple emails are for the same client. That time should be aggregated. In other words, if he sends six emails on a client matter, and spends one minute on each, he should bill 0.1 hours, not 0.6.

And if each email your buddy sent was for a different client, he would have to send emails for 30 separate client matters in a single hour to get to his 3-hours billed mark. That seems unlikely, absent some really unique matter mix, and I can’t imagine that the emails in that situation are substantive enough to warrant billing them. 

Perhaps he wrote 30 emails to 30 different clients that all said "Hey, I'm headed to Vegas and I plan to be completely wasted for the next 48 hours.  Just wanted to give you a heads up in case you tried to reach me or I respond to any emails in an inappropriate or perplexing way.  Many thanks, Your Lawyer.  P.S.  I'm billing you 0.1 hours for this email."

 

[culdeus]

Do automatic out of office emails count as .1?

 

[Warrior]

Is that a question?  I have a bill in front of me from Bracewell in Texas right this moment with the senior partner billing at $1,025 per hour.  The Partner is $820, Associate is $595, and the para legal is $320 per hour.  No idea why we don't get a better rate but that is a completely different conversation.  I have never actually spoken to the Sr partner and this is a simple non-judicial foreclosure.  I may have to push back on this as noted earlier. 

$1,025 per hour is a little different $1m/hr.

 

[Warrior]

Think he means per hour their rate would be over $1M.  I'd wager some are way higher than that.  A partner who bills $600/hr (know idea how this is possibly justified but I know it's not even a crazy high rate) would be billing at a rate of $1.25M if they received that rate 40hrs/week.  

This makes much more sense. Though I will admit that a little part of me actually thought it might be possible that a lawyer would bill someone at a rate of $1 million per hour.

 

[Vanilla Guerrilla]

$1,025 per hour is a little different $1m/hr.

It's $25 different.  M is the roman numeral for 1,000.

 

[sbonomo]

I actually disagree here. We produce better work product and more creative ideas and solutions when multiple lawyers contribute. And it’s not always the seniormost partner who adds the most valuable input to an issue or memo or other work product. So if you want the best advice/outcome, especially on a complex matter, team input is a must. Lawyers working alone in a vacuum, I don’t care who they are, just aren’t as effective. (If you’re talking about some small matter like your mortgage closing or a will, obviously a different story). 

I guess i was thinking of a more straight forward case in my scenario.  I know you work on large complex deals so i would agree in that context.

 

[sbonomo]

This makes much more sense. Though I will admit that a little part of me actually thought it might be possible that a lawyer would bill someone at a rate of $1 million per hour.

Hahaha...see above and below.  Sorry for the confusion. I forget that not everyone speaks in the same terms.