Leinart Question? (1 Viewer)

[Bob Magaw]

it was very good... i'm not a leinart basher... far from it...

nonetheless, i was disturbed by the question... what if leinart & cutler had swapped schools... would cutler have been as good or better?

no doubt leinart would have lost a lot more games...

anyway, i don't think his supporting cast being basically an NFL feeder team like miami is cause of masking marginal skills on his part... he clearly has skills...

but could it be deceptive in sense of making him look great even though he is "only" really, really good?

could scouts be making mistake of attributing too much of USCs historic run to the QB... & not enough to past, present & future first rounders like bush, white, mike williams & jarrett?

for the record, i think he could be great... but acknowledge possibility that he could be "merely" very good... i think he has a relatively high floor & represents low bust potential... imo, one of safer picks in the draft...

 

[diesel7982]

If Culter went to USC, hed have played saftey

No school other than Vandy was willing to let him play QB, and it was that challenge that drove him to become the player he is today.

I get the question...is the difference between Leinart and Culter only the talent around them? But the answer is that the talent around them has shaped the QBs that they are. Leinart is used to being able to lob passes and have his skill players take over games, Culter is used to scrambling, throwing off his back foot, and making plays on his own. Theyd both be very different players had they switched schools/talent

 

[Couch Potato]

In one game I saw, USC was in the shotgun at their own 5 yard line. Leinart played center and snapped the ball. He's so good that he was in the QB position, waiting for the ball when it got there. He then threw the bomb with a mere flick of his wrist, 95 yards in the air. He zipped down the field and caught his own pass at the opposing goal line for a touchdown. Of course, he then kicked the extra point.

How can anyone doubt this man's abilities?

 

[MLBrandow]

In one game I saw, USC was in the shotgun at their own 5 yard line. Leinart played center and snapped the ball. He's so good that he was in the QB position, waiting for the ball when it got there. He then threw the bomb with a mere flick of his wrist, 95 yards in the air. He zipped down the field and caught his own pass at the opposing goal line for a touchdown. Of course, he then kicked the extra point.

How can anyone doubt this man's abilities?

What would Brian Boitano do?

 

[Mr. Vegas]

In one game I saw, USC was in the shotgun at their own 5 yard line.  Leinart played center and snapped the ball.  He's so good that he was in the QB position, waiting for the ball when it got there.  He then threw the bomb with a mere flick of his wrist, 95 yards in the air.  He zipped down the field and caught his own pass at the opposing goal line for a touchdown.  Of course, he then kicked the extra point. 

How can anyone doubt this man's abilities?

What would Brian Boitano do?

Punt.

 

[Bri]

He could also be used to faster players and the biggest adjustment to the NFL is the speed of the game.

 

[nygiants56]

In one game I saw, USC was in the shotgun at their own 5 yard line. Leinart played center and snapped the ball. He's so good that he was in the QB position, waiting for the ball when it got there. He then threw the bomb with a mere flick of his wrist, 95 yards in the air. He zipped down the field and caught his own pass at the opposing goal line for a touchdown. Of course, he then kicked the extra point.

How can anyone doubt this man's abilities?

don't forget the touch on the pass down the left sideline on 4th down late in the ND game that set up the winning TD for USC..

on the road, chips are down,and he comes thru.he's clutch!

Kiper, Jr. was on espn radio yesterday, mike and mike show, saying leinart is another Ken Stabler..not a strong arm, but a heady player with guts who knows how to win...

 

[Dave Baker]

One of the things that scouts drool over with Leinart is his ability to read coverages and make the right decisions. He also goes through his progressions with amazing ease.

So many people emphasize things like arm strength and speed that they forget the things, that Leinart already possesses, that make a standout NFL QB.

 

[Warpig]

In one game I saw, USC was in the shotgun at their own 5 yard line. Leinart played center and snapped the ball. He's so good that he was in the QB position, waiting for the ball when it got there. He then threw the bomb with a mere flick of his wrist, 95 yards in the air. He zipped down the field and caught his own pass at the opposing goal line for a touchdown. Of course, he then kicked the extra point.

How can anyone doubt this man's abilities?

Dude! I remember that! #######' amazing! Has to be one of the best one man plays ever! Maybe even better than Steve Young's pass to himself.

 

[bagger.]

If Cutler went to USC Matt Cassel would have started in Cutler's Freshman year and John David Booty would have taken over after that.

 

[Dave Baker]

If Cutler went to USC Matt Cassel would have started in Cutler's Freshman year and John David Booty would have taken over after that.

Sounds extreme, but there were scouts this year that said that Booty would be a top 5 QB if he went in this years draft, despite having never been a college starter.

 

[bagger.]

If Cutler went to USC Matt Cassel would have started in Cutler's Freshman year and John David Booty would have taken over after that.

Sounds extreme, but there were scouts this year that said that Booty would be a top 5 QB if he went in this years draft, despite having never been a college starter.

 

[tommyGunZ]

If Culter went to USC, hed have played saftey

No school other than Vandy was willing to let him play QB, and it was that challenge that drove him to become the player he is today.

I get the question...is the difference between Leinart and Culter only the talent around them? But the answer is that the talent around them has shaped the QBs that they are. Leinart is used to being able to lob passes and have his skill players take over games, Culter is used to scrambling, throwing off his back foot, and making plays on his own. Theyd both be very different players had they switched schools/talent

I agree with this analysis. Leinart's been John Stockton the last few years, while Culter's had to be Stephon Marbury.

 

[cstu]

One of the things that scouts drool over with Leinart is his ability to read coverages and make the right decisions. He also goes through his progressions with amazing ease.

So many people emphasize things like arm strength and speed that they forget the things, that Leinart already possesses, that make a standout NFL QB.

I agree, but I found this quote from Joel Buchbaum before the 1999 draft interesting pertaining to Leinart and the discussion going on about him:

1. Cleveland Browns, QB Tim Couch / Kentucky

No longer a clear-cut choice to go No. 1, but he’s still the favorite. Has fine athleticism; a good, but not great, arm and great productivity. However, the question many scouts keep asking is: How much of Couch’s success at Kentucky is attributable to the system he was in, where a receiver always seemed to be open and he very rarely threw a pass more than 19 yards down the field?

 

[bagger.]

One of the things that scouts drool over with Leinart is his ability to read coverages and make the right decisions.  He also goes through his progressions with amazing ease.

So many people emphasize things like arm strength and speed that they forget the things, that Leinart already possesses, that make a standout NFL QB.

I agree, but I found this quote from Joel Buchbaum before the 1999 draft interesting pertaining to Leinart and the discussion going on about him:

1. Cleveland Browns, QB Tim Couch / Kentucky

No longer a clear-cut choice to go No. 1, but he’s still the favorite. Has fine athleticism; a good, but not great, arm and great productivity. However, the question many scouts keep asking is: How much of Couch’s success at Kentucky is attributable to the system he was in, where a receiver always seemed to be open and he very rarely threw a pass more than 19 yards down the field?

Leinart has thrown plenty of passes 20+ yards.

 

[Jason Wood]

One of the things that scouts drool over with Leinart is his ability to read coverages and make the right decisions.  He also goes through his progressions with amazing ease.

So many people emphasize things like arm strength and speed that they forget the things, that Leinart already possesses, that make a standout NFL QB.

I agree, but I found this quote from Joel Buchbaum before the 1999 draft interesting pertaining to Leinart and the discussion going on about him:

1. Cleveland Browns, QB Tim Couch / Kentucky

No longer a clear-cut choice to go No. 1, but he’s still the favorite. Has fine athleticism; a good, but not great, arm and great productivity. However, the question many scouts keep asking is: How much of Couch’s success at Kentucky is attributable to the system he was in, where a receiver always seemed to be open and he very rarely threw a pass more than 19 yards down the field?

Leinart has thrown plenty of passes 20+ yards.

Couch and Leinart are poor comparables for many reasons, not the least of which is the style of offense.

 

[cstu]

One of the things that scouts drool over with Leinart is his ability to read coverages and make the right decisions. He also goes through his progressions with amazing ease.

So many people emphasize things like arm strength and speed that they forget the things, that Leinart already possesses, that make a standout NFL QB.

I agree, but I found this quote from Joel Buchbaum before the 1999 draft interesting pertaining to Leinart and the discussion going on about him:

1. Cleveland Browns, QB Tim Couch / Kentucky

No longer a clear-cut choice to go No. 1, but he’s still the favorite. Has fine athleticism; a good, but not great, arm and great productivity. However, the question many scouts keep asking is: How much of Couch’s success at Kentucky is attributable to the system he was in, where a receiver always seemed to be open and he very rarely threw a pass more than 19 yards down the field?

Leinart has thrown plenty of passes 20+ yards.

Couch and Leinart are poor comparables for many reasons, not the least of which is the style of offense.

How often did Leinart complete passes that went over 20 yards in the air without a lot of under under them? I'm not knocking him since I think his leadership and accuracy are enough to make him a good NFL QB. Guys like Brady and Brees show that having a strong arm isn't needed if QB's are in the right system for their skills. Leinart is great at reading defenses and making good decisions. If he goes to the Titans and plays for a coach who knows how to get the most out of him, he'll be a Pro Bowl QB. He does have a problem with tendinitus and that's a much bigger concern to me than his arm strength. Then again so did Montana and he turns out ok.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Ill play devil's advocate and turn this on its head -

Is it possible that Leinart running the offense so efficiently made the skill players look better? Why doesn't this argument work both ways? If Leinart wasn't such a smart, effective QB, would defenses have stacked the line to stop Bush and White? What about the accuracy that made the catches easier for the WRs?

 

[bagger.]

How often did Leinart complete passes that went over 20 yards in the air without a lot of under under them? I'm not knocking him since I think his leadership and accuracy are enough to make him a good NFL QB. Guys like Brady and Brees show that having a strong arm isn't needed if QB's are in the right system for their skills. Leinart is great at reading defenses and making good decisions. If he goes to the Titans and plays for a coach who knows how to get the most out of him, he'll be a Pro Bowl QB.

He does have a problem with tendinitus and that's a much bigger concern to me than his arm strength. Then again so did Montana and he turns out ok.

Are you asking me how many times he throw a deep ball with a low trajectory? Wouldn't that be intercepted?

 

[toxicbees]

Another thing about Leinart is that he knows how to call out audibles, and use them effectively. When Norm Chow left, it was Leinart that was running the offense at times. Take for instance that 4th quarter play against Notre Dame last year, he saw something in the offense, called an audible and put perfect touch on the pass to get it to his WR.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Another thing about Leinart is that he knows how to call out audibles, and use them effectively. When Norm Chow left, it was Leinart that was running the offense at times. Take for instance that 4th quarter play against Notre Dame last year, he saw something in the offense, called an audible and put perfect touch on the pass to get it to his WR.

It wasn't an audible. He didn't change the play. He and the coach discussed the play on the sideline. Matt told him the play was there, and they went with it. His snap count was confused as an audible by everyone but Carrol and Leinart in post game interviews.As far as Leinart running the offense, that's what QB's do. Leinart was having so much trouble running the offense in the first half of the Rose Bowl, Carroll went to the bench and asked Booty if he was ready to play.

 

[Chaos Commish]

How often did Leinart complete passes that went over 20 yards in the air without a lot of under under them? I'm not knocking him since I think his leadership and accuracy are enough to make him a good NFL QB. Guys like Brady and Brees show that having a strong arm isn't needed if QB's are in the right system for their skills. Leinart is great at reading defenses and making good decisions. If he goes to the Titans and plays for a coach who knows how to get the most out of him, he'll be a Pro Bowl QB.

He does have a problem with tendinitus and that's a much bigger concern to me than his arm strength. Then again so did Montana and he turns out ok.

Are you asking me how many times he throw a deep ball with a low trajectory? Wouldn't that be intercepted?

Actually, putting too much air under a ball, floating it, causes many more interceptions than line drive throws.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Ill play devil's advocate and turn this on its head -

1. Is it possible that Leinart running the offense so efficiently made the skill players look better?

2. Why doesn't this argument work both ways?

3. If Leinart wasn't such a smart, effective QB, would defenses have stacked the line to stop Bush and White?

4. What about the accuracy that made the catches easier for the WRs?

Good questions. 1. Yes, that is always a possibility. It's why watching the game carefully is more important that reading opinions or boxscores.

2. It does. I argued the opposite irt Carson Palmer at length. Palmer carried that team his senior year. It was impressive to awesome. It was him. His throws. His play. I was sold. Leinart has never made that kind of impression on me.

3. They did. This past season, Leinart did almost all of his damage against 8 and 9 man fronts.

4. It was non-existent down the field. He completed very few throws that travelled 20-25 yards in the air. Very very few. He is plenty accurate in the short game, okay in the intermediate, pretty weak with the deep stuff. That's what you'll see if you watch enough games.

Here's a pretty solid article that explains something I have expressed to Joe and Jason in PMs.

Glitter Gone from QBs?

The answer is simple: This year’s quarterback class may really not be all that good.

With Young, there are already plenty of odd issues. His offseason workout regimen has been sporadic. His Wonderlic score made people wonder what’s going on. His run-heavy style of play may not be suited for the pro game.

As for Leinart, most coaches, scouts and executives fall into a well-developed pack of thinking. He doesn’t have the greatest arm, but he’s exceptionally accurate and he has all the intangibles.

That said, there was one offensive coordinator who said, “Thanks, but no thanks.”

“I’m different than most people on a lot of this stuff, but I see Leinart as a third- or fourth-round pick,” the coach said. “He’s an OK player, but he doesn’t move all that well and his throwing is just so-so. He’s not all that accurate … He just doesn’t excite me. He’s going to be a top five pick and all that, but you won’t see my team take him.”

Still, even with Cutler, the majority opinion is that he’s good, but perhaps overrated. Going into the season, most NFL folk didn’t consider him a first-round pick. Now, there’s talk he’ll be a top 3 pick.

I add the Cutler comment because despite my apologetics, I have shared as much with Jason and Joe. IMHO, only Young is what I consider a first round talent. I told Jason and Joe that liking Cutler more than Leinart was more and indictment of Leinart than praise for Cutler. In my mind they are both 2nd 3rd round type talents. I like Cutler better, and I have praised him at length, but I don't see in him what I saw in Palmer a few years back. No way. These guys going in the first half of round one with all this other talent available is wrong-- a mistake. Here and on the blog I have said Saban makes a mistake if he moves up for Cutler, and a team moving up and taking Leinart #1 overall is a dooozy of a mistake. These guys just aren't that good. They are pretty good, but nothing to drool about, and honestly few scouts are drooling. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I think I observed from watching them carefully. There's tons of precedent with top 10 QBs to support my concerns.

 

[Dave Baker]

Leinart was having so much trouble running the offense in the first half of the Rose Bowl, Carroll went to the bench and asked Booty if he was ready to play.

As a SoCal native and USC alum, I never heard or read this. Do you happen to have a link? I read every story in the LA Times and the Daily News, plus soaked up about everything online.While I believe you are serious in what you heard/read, I have a hard time believing Carroll ever went to Booty to ask if he was ready to play unless Leinart had been injured or something. But I will ask my buddy who coaches at USC if he ever heard such a thing.

 

[Dave Baker]

Another thing about Leinart is that he knows how to call out audibles, and use them effectively.  When Norm Chow left, it was Leinart that was running the offense at times.  Take for instance that 4th quarter play against Notre Dame last year, he saw something in the offense, called an audible and put perfect touch on the pass to get it to his WR.

It wasn't an audible. He didn't change the play. He and the coach discussed the play on the sideline. Matt told him the play was there, and they went with it. His snap count was confused as an audible by everyone but Carrol and Leinart in post game interviews.

That's the first I heard of this story too. From the LA Times,

On fourth and nine from the 26, Leinart called an audible at the line of scrimmage.

"He checked out of the play and said he's coming to me," split end Dwayne Jarrett said.

Obviously that doesn't differ form what you said, since you claimed that Leinart and Carroll were the only ones "in on it", but doesn't Jarrett's quote at least mean it wasn't the play called in the huddle? Perhaps Leinart told Carroll that he thought the play was there and Carroll told Leinart to go with it if he thought it was the right thing to do, but it remains an audible if he called one play in the huddle and another at the line, whether or not Carroll knew it might happen ahead of time or not.And as you said, Leinart brought the play up to Carroll. Anyway, you might be correct, but a link to support what contradicts what many others might help support your thoughts here.

 

[bagger.]

Another thing about Leinart is that he knows how to call out audibles, and use them effectively.  When Norm Chow left, it was Leinart that was running the offense at times.  Take for instance that 4th quarter play against Notre Dame last year, he saw something in the offense, called an audible and put perfect touch on the pass to get it to his WR.

It wasn't an audible. He didn't change the play. He and the coach discussed the play on the sideline. Matt told him the play was there, and they went with it. His snap count was confused as an audible by everyone but Carrol and Leinart in post game interviews.As far as Leinart running the offense, that's what QB's do. Leinart was having so much trouble running the offense in the first half of the Rose Bowl, Carroll went to the bench and asked Booty if he was ready to play.

This is completely false.

 

[bagger.]

How often did Leinart complete passes that went over 20 yards in the air without a lot of under under them?  I'm not knocking him since I think his leadership and accuracy are enough to make him a good NFL QB.  Guys like Brady and Brees show that having a strong arm isn't needed if QB's are in the right system for their skills.  Leinart is great at reading defenses and making good decisions.  If he goes to the Titans and plays for a coach who knows how to get the most out of him, he'll be a Pro Bowl QB. 

He does have a problem with tendinitus and that's a much bigger concern to me than his arm strength.  Then again so did Montana and he turns out ok.

Are you asking me how many times he throw a deep ball with a low trajectory? Wouldn't that be intercepted?

Actually, putting too much air under a ball, floating it, causes many more interceptions than line drive throws.

n/m you missed my point.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Leinart was having so much trouble running the offense in the first half of the Rose Bowl, Carroll went to the bench and asked Booty if he was ready to play.

As a SoCal native and USC alum, I never heard or read this. Do you happen to have a link? I read every story in the LA Times and the Daily News, plus soaked up about everything online.While I believe you are serious in what you heard/read, I have a hard time believing Carroll ever went to Booty to ask if he was ready to play unless Leinart had been injured or something. But I will ask my buddy who coaches at USC if he ever heard such a thing.

Not what I heard/read. What I saw. Do you have the Rose Bowl recorded? Jackson and Fouts even discuss it (briefly). Middle of the second quarter. Carroll is "animated". He pulls his headset. He leaves the sideline and sort of charges through some players and to the benches. Not once, but twice, clear as a bell, you see him ask Booty if he is ready. He yells it the second time. I've watched it ten times. I haven't even the tiniest inkling of a doubt about this.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Another thing about Leinart is that he knows how to call out audibles, and use them effectively. When Norm Chow left, it was Leinart that was running the offense at times. Take for instance that 4th quarter play against Notre Dame last year, he saw something in the offense, called an audible and put perfect touch on the pass to get it to his WR.

It wasn't an audible. He didn't change the play. He and the coach discussed the play on the sideline. Matt told him the play was there, and they went with it. His snap count was confused as an audible by everyone but Carrol and Leinart in post game interviews.

That's the first I heard of this story too. From the LA Times,

On fourth and nine from the 26, Leinart called an audible at the line of scrimmage.

"He checked out of the play and said he's coming to me," split end Dwayne Jarrett said.

Obviously that doesn't differ form what you said, since you claimed that Leinart and Carroll were the only ones "in on it", but doesn't Jarrett's quote at least mean it wasn't the play called in the huddle? Perhaps Leinart told Carroll that he thought the play was there and Carroll told Leinart to go with it if he thought it was the right thing to do, but it remains an audible if he called one play in the huddle and another at the line, whether or not Carroll knew it might happen ahead of time or not.And as you said, Leinart brought the play up to Carroll. Anyway, you might be correct, but a link to support what contradicts what many others might help support your thoughts here.

This is picking nits and making much of nothing, but Carroll and Leinart have both discussed the sideline conversation on 4th and 9 at Notre Dame. The play to Jarrett was agreed upon during the timeout. It isn't as if he took the field, read the D, audibled based on what he saw, and made the play. I wouldn't make this stuff up. Bagger is wrong, sorry.eta: Many many sources have made it into what it wasn't, however...

 

[Dave Baker]

Couple quick things, after speaking to my buddy.

Lane and Sarkisian had spotted the possible coverage situation earlier when studying Notre Dame game film and had discussed how to handle it. On third and long, it came up during the game and was brought to the attention of Leinart and Carroll, who were told again on fourth down that if the coverage ended up being what it was to go with that play.

So it was an audible but it was also planned ahead of time in case the coverage was what it ended up being.

Secondly, Leinart had his bell rung pretty well in the first half in the Rose Bowl. My buddy didn't see Carroll go up to Booty, but it wouldn't surprise him because of the hits Leinart had taken. But he added there was no possible way Booty replaces Leinart unless Leinart is unable to play.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Couple quick things, after speaking to my buddy.

Lane and Sarkisian had spotted the possible coverage situation earlier when studying Notre Dame game film and had discussed how to handle it. On third and long, it came up during the game and was brought to the attention of Leinart and Carroll, who were told again on fourth down that if the coverage ended up being what it was to go with that play.

So it was an audible but it was also planned ahead of time in case the coverage was what it ended up being.

Secondly, Leinart had his bell rung pretty well in the first half in the Rose Bowl. My buddy didn't see Carroll go up to Booty, but it wouldn't surprise him because of the hits Leinart had taken. But he added there was no possible way Booty replaces Leinart unless Leinart is unable to play.

I can agree with all that. On the first item. Leinart said, he told Carroll, "It was there." Carroll said, "Go for it."

On the second item. I did see what your buddy missed. It did happen. It could have been because of his bell. Makes sense. But, if you go to the tape, that's not the impression you'll get.

Digging around a little bit, I just read that Leinart has had concussion issues. This is news to me. Anyone ever hear anything about this?

 

[Dave Baker]

Digging around a little bit, I just read that Leinart has had concussion issues. This is news to me. Anyone ever hear anything about this?

He's had two mild concussions, one he took after a late hit in the Arizona State game.

 

[Dave Baker]

On the second item. I did see what your buddy missed. It did happen. It could have been because of his bell. Makes sense. But, if you go to the tape, that's not the impression you'll get.

You implied that perhaps Leinart wasn't so great because his coach asked the backup if he was ready. But Leinart was not removed. And Leinart would never have been removed unless he was injured.I just don't see it as a valid argument against Leinart.

 

[Chaos Commish]

On the second item. I did see what your buddy missed. It did happen. It could have been because of his bell. Makes sense. But, if you go to the tape, that's not the impression you'll get.

You implied that perhaps Leinart wasn't so great because his coach asked the backup if he was ready. But Leinart was not removed. And Leinart would never have been removed unless he was injured.I just don't see it as a valid argument against Leinart.

No, I'm backing off of that one and appreciate the input. I was just reporting what I saw and explaining it with information (you have to admit) is very incomplete. From watching it, you couldn't help but wonder what I wondered. You filled the info void nicely. He was dinged. It makes sense.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Digging around a little bit, I just read that Leinart has had concussion issues. This is news to me. Anyone ever hear anything about this?

He's had two mild concussions, one he took after a late hit in the Arizona State game.

Yeah, I remember the ASU hit. He was pretty angry. I thought he rattled too easily.