Let's Talk Penn State Football (1 Viewer)

[ClownCausedChaos2]

I missed it last night, but it's on ESPN2 tomorrow night at 9:30:

Nixon's National Champs. It's only 30 minutes, but it's a brief story about the year that Nixon gave the National Championship to Texas over PSU, purely to appease the state of Texas for the Presidential election.

My father remembers it. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Ki-Jana Carter has been inducted into the Rose Bowl Hall of Fame.

Nice.

 

[Tom Servo]

Ki-Jana Carter has been inducted into the Rose Bowl Hall of Fame.

Nice.

Jay Paterno ‏@JayPaterno 23m23 minutes ago
Love this pic Ki-Jana Carter posted this morning--he'll be wearing this hat in the Parade & at the Rose Bowl game. pic.twitter.com/GzxfNvO8pN

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Ki-Jana Carter has been inducted into the Rose Bowl Hall of Fame.

Nice.

Jay Paterno ‏@JayPaterno 23m23 minutes ago

Love this pic Ki-Jana Carter posted this morning--he'll be wearing this hat in the Parade & at the Rose Bowl game. pic.twitter.com/GzxfNvO8pN

Very cool.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

NCAA reconsidering sanctions, including restoring Penn State/Paterno's wins:

http://onwardstate.com/2015/01/12/report-ncaa-in-talks-to-restore-paterno-victories/

 

[Tom Servo]

NCAA reconsidering sanctions, including restoring Penn State/Paterno's wins:

http://onwardstate.com/2015/01/12/report-ncaa-in-talks-to-restore-paterno-victories/

409 #####es!!!!!!

 

[roarlions]

Another article with more detail:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20150113_NCAA_said_to_reconsider_sanctions_against_Paterno__Penn_State.html?nlid=8067541

From the article (wouldn't be happy if this was the case at all):

Sources say the terms being discussed include a provision under which Penn State would acknowledge that the NCAA had the right to impose the sanctions.

 

[Mad Cow]

Ki-Jana Carter has been inducted into the Rose Bowl Hall of Fame.

Nice.

Jay Paterno ‏@JayPaterno 23m23 minutes ago

Love this pic Ki-Jana Carter posted this morning--he'll be wearing this hat in the Parade & at the Rose Bowl game. pic.twitter.com/GzxfNvO8pN

Very cool.

I knew Ki-Jana in HS. Such a nice guy. I was so disappointed he flopped in the NFL.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Ki-Jana Carter has been inducted into the Rose Bowl Hall of Fame.

Nice.

Jay Paterno ‏@JayPaterno 23m23 minutes ago

Love this pic Ki-Jana Carter posted this morning--he'll be wearing this hat in the Parade & at the Rose Bowl game. pic.twitter.com/GzxfNvO8pN

Very cool.

I knew Ki-Jana in HS. Such a nice guy. I was so disappointed he flopped in the NFL.

I think flop is the wrong word. He got hurt. Flop seems more like if he just didn't pan out.

 

[Fat Nick]

Another article with more detail:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20150113_NCAA_said_to_reconsider_sanctions_against_Paterno__Penn_State.html?nlid=8067541

From the article (wouldn't be happy if this was the case at all):

Sources say the terms being discussed include a provision under which Penn State would acknowledge that the NCAA had the right to impose the sanctions.

Why is this a provision in all of these agreements? I knowi t's just an NCAA "CYA so you can't sue us," type thing, but really...isn't that what got them in trouble in the first place? Overstepping their bounds and basically telling PSU that they had to take the sanctions as-is with no negotiation, or they'd hand out even worse sanctions?

With that said, that provision is really a sign of how weak the NCAA's case is, or at least how weak they must feel it is. They gave back the bowl eligibility early. They gave back the scholarships early. I think the state of PA is contesting the monetary fine. If they gave back the wins, there really wouldn't be much left to "give back," yet the NCAA is still clearly worried that PSU will come after them for something. The NCAA is acting like someone who knows that if this goes to court as-is, they'll lose.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Another article with more detail:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20150113_NCAA_said_to_reconsider_sanctions_against_Paterno__Penn_State.html?nlid=8067541

From the article (wouldn't be happy if this was the case at all):

Sources say the terms being discussed include a provision under which Penn State would acknowledge that the NCAA had the right to impose the sanctions.

Why is this a provision in all of these agreements? I knowi t's just an NCAA "CYA so you can't sue us," type thing, but really...isn't that what got them in trouble in the first place? Overstepping their bounds and basically telling PSU that they had to take the sanctions as-is with no negotiation, or they'd hand out even worse sanctions?

With that said, that provision is really a sign of how weak the NCAA's case is, or at least how weak they must feel it is. They gave back the bowl eligibility early. They gave back the scholarships early. I think the state of PA is contesting the monetary fine. If they gave back the wins, there really wouldn't be much left to "give back," yet the NCAA is still clearly worried that PSU will come after them for something. The NCAA is acting like someone who knows that if this goes to court as-is, they'll lose.

 

[E-Z Glider]

Ki-Jana Carter has been inducted into the Rose Bowl Hall of Fame.

Nice.

Jay Paterno ‏@JayPaterno 23m23 minutes ago

Love this pic Ki-Jana Carter posted this morning--he'll be wearing this hat in the Parade & at the Rose Bowl game. pic.twitter.com/GzxfNvO8pN

Very cool.

I knew Ki-Jana in HS. Such a nice guy. I was so disappointed he flopped in the NFL.

I think flop is the wrong word. He got hurt. Flop seems more like if he just didn't pan out.

Yep, we had an early draft that year and I took Ki-Jana in the 1st round of my fantasy league (showing both my age and homerism in one bold statement). He got hurt in preseason and was never the same.

 

[CentralPA]

I didn't hear about the provision. If that is case i'd take them to court and get the wins restored and tell them to burn in hell.

 

[Tom Servo]

Another article with more detail:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20150113_NCAA_said_to_reconsider_sanctions_against_Paterno__Penn_State.html?nlid=8067541

From the article (wouldn't be happy if this was the case at all):

Sources say the terms being discussed include a provision under which Penn State would acknowledge that the NCAA had the right to impose the sanctions.

Why is this a provision in all of these agreements? I knowi t's just an NCAA "CYA so you can't sue us," type thing, but really...isn't that what got them in trouble in the first place? Overstepping their bounds and basically telling PSU that they had to take the sanctions as-is with no negotiation, or they'd hand out even worse sanctions?

With that said, that provision is really a sign of how weak the NCAA's case is, or at least how weak they must feel it is. They gave back the bowl eligibility early. They gave back the scholarships early. I think the state of PA is contesting the monetary fine. If they gave back the wins, there really wouldn't be much left to "give back," yet the NCAA is still clearly worried that PSU will come after them for something. The NCAA is acting like someone who knows that if this goes to court as-is, they'll lose.

AFAIK, no one is complaining about the $ 60MM; it goes to a good cause and helps the issue stay relevant in people's minds.

I didn't care (and still don't) about anything other than getting JoePa's wins back. The BoT screwed him royally and rolled over for the NCAA; to me, getting him back to 409 is the big middle finger to the BoT.

 

[Fat Nick]

Another article with more detail:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20150113_NCAA_said_to_reconsider_sanctions_against_Paterno__Penn_State.html?nlid=8067541

From the article (wouldn't be happy if this was the case at all):

Sources say the terms being discussed include a provision under which Penn State would acknowledge that the NCAA had the right to impose the sanctions.

Why is this a provision in all of these agreements? I knowi t's just an NCAA "CYA so you can't sue us," type thing, but really...isn't that what got them in trouble in the first place? Overstepping their bounds and basically telling PSU that they had to take the sanctions as-is with no negotiation, or they'd hand out even worse sanctions?

With that said, that provision is really a sign of how weak the NCAA's case is, or at least how weak they must feel it is. They gave back the bowl eligibility early. They gave back the scholarships early. I think the state of PA is contesting the monetary fine. If they gave back the wins, there really wouldn't be much left to "give back," yet the NCAA is still clearly worried that PSU will come after them for something. The NCAA is acting like someone who knows that if this goes to court as-is, they'll lose.

AFAIK, no one is complaining about the $ 60MM; it goes to a good cause and helps the issue stay relevant in people's minds.

I didn't care (and still don't) about anything other than getting JoePa's wins back. The BoT screwed him royally and rolled over for the NCAA; to me, getting him back to 409 is the big middle finger to the BoT.

I'm with you there my friend...that was the one sanction I had and still have the most issue with. I wear my "We Are Still 409" shirt from the Family Clothesline with pride...and answer questions asking why I'm so supportive of a kitchen surface cleaning spray regularly...

 

[Tom Servo]

I'm with you there my friend...that was the one sanction I had and still have the most issue with. I wear my "We Are Still 409" shirt from the Family Clothesline with pride...and answer questions asking why I'm so supportive of a kitchen surface cleaning spray regularly...

 

[roarlions]

I didn't hear about the provision. If that is case i'd take them to court and get the wins restored and tell them to burn in hell.

Supposedly Sen. Corman is not happy about that provision being in the proposed settlement and is fighting it. Seems to be at least 1 of the issues that is holding up a settlement at this point. It also sounds as though the Paterno suit against the NCAA will continue no matter what happens with Corman's suit.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Wins restored!

 

[The Man With No Name]

Tuesday afternoon press conference

That is so Awesome

 

[Fat Nick]

Wins restored!

#### YEAH!

 

[Parrothead]

Called the NCAAs bluff.. Emmert is such a weasel

 

[The Man With No Name]

Wonder how the ESPN idiots will spin this. They were all for it when it happened.

They will probably be on board with the restoring of the wins now.

 

[The Commish]

Genuine question....WTF cares about wins being taken away or restored after the fact? Why? Seems childish on both sides of this bizarre line.

 

[Fat Nick]

Genuine question....WTF cares about wins being taken away or restored after the fact? Why? Seems childish on both sides of this bizarre line.

Not sure I get your reasoning. Why wouldn't someone have a right to be upset if someone arbitrarily took away something they earned? Would you be mad if someone just came and took away all of your paychecks between 1998 and 2011 after you'd put in the time?

 

[The Commish]

Genuine question....WTF cares about wins being taken away or restored after the fact? Why? Seems childish on both sides of this bizarre line.

Not sure I get your reasoning. Why wouldn't someone have a right to be upset if someone arbitrarily took away something they earned? Would you be mad if someone just came and took away all of your paychecks between 1998 and 2011 after you'd put in the time?

They can have all the paper checks they want. The money's long gone.

Not sure I understand the comparison either. Seems apples to oranges. My reasoning is this. The NCAA can do nothing to alter the past. Everyone knows they won those games. It doesn't matter what it says on some piece of NCAA paper somewhere, but people get really bent out of shape because the NCAA changed some record keeping piece of paper in their office?

ETA: And I am not suggesting it's not your right to be upset. It certainly is. Just doesn't make any sense to me that you are.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Genuine question....WTF cares about wins being taken away or restored after the fact? Why? Seems childish on both sides of this bizarre line.

Not sure I get your reasoning. Why wouldn't someone have a right to be upset if someone arbitrarily took away something they earned? Would you be mad if someone just came and took away all of your paychecks between 1998 and 2011 after you'd put in the time?

I'm a proud PSU grad, but I kind of agree with The Commish on this one. I get it if you are the Paterno family and what it means to his legacy, but as an alum, I really couldn't care less.

As a fan and an alum, I got to enjoy those wins as they were happening. Taking the wins away from Paterno and the school didn't retroactively make me not enjy the wins, and the restoration of the same didn't make me remember that enjoyment.

As a fan, student or alum, i really fail to see what the big deal is.

 

[CentralPA]

Genuine question....WTF cares about wins being taken away or restored after the fact? Why? Seems childish on both sides of this bizarre line.

Not sure I get your reasoning. Why wouldn't someone have a right to be upset if someone arbitrarily took away something they earned? Would you be mad if someone just came and took away all of your paychecks between 1998 and 2011 after you'd put in the time?

I'm a proud PSU grad, but I kind of agree with The Commish on this one. I get it if you are the Paterno family and what it means to his legacy, but as an alum, I really couldn't care less.

As a fan and an alum, I got to enjoy those wins as they were happening. Taking the wins away from Paterno and the school didn't retroactively make me not enjy the wins, and the restoration of the same didn't make me remember that enjoyment.

As a fan, student or alum, i really fail to see what the big deal is.

I can see it from both sides. Why fight so hard to have the rights back to "officially" say Joe Paterno has 409 wins when anyone who hasn't been living under a rock the past 40 some odd years knows this. I guess it's the principle. JoePa's name has been drugged through the mud so much that those who believed (and their is a lot) in him wanted to fight for him to restore the accomplishments that he earned. I thought it was incredibly dumb stipulation amongst all the decent decree BS to begin with.

 

[Fat Nick]

Genuine question....WTF cares about wins being taken away or restored after the fact? Why? Seems childish on both sides of this bizarre line.

Not sure I get your reasoning. Why wouldn't someone have a right to be upset if someone arbitrarily took away something they earned? Would you be mad if someone just came and took away all of your paychecks between 1998 and 2011 after you'd put in the time?

They can have all the paper checks they want. The money's long gone.

Not sure I understand the comparison either. Seems apples to oranges. My reasoning is this. The NCAA can do nothing to alter the past. Everyone knows they won those games. It doesn't matter what it says on some piece of NCAA paper somewhere, but people get really bent out of shape because the NCAA changed some record keeping piece of paper in their office?

ETA: And I am not suggesting it's not your right to be upset. It certainly is. Just doesn't make any sense to me that you are.

I guess some place more value in formal recognition than others. I get what you're saying. I think you get the concept of my analogy. I couldn't relate it to you specifically. Maybe it was a reach. You and I know now who had the most wins, but it's still nice to know you're in the record book for that. It might matter a lot in 50 years when fewer people were alive when Paterno was.

By your logic, do you think they should just throw out the concept of formal tracked records altogether? I mean, as long as people remember, right?

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Genuine question....WTF cares about wins being taken away or restored after the fact? Why? Seems childish on both sides of this bizarre line.

Not sure I get your reasoning. Why wouldn't someone have a right to be upset if someone arbitrarily took away something they earned? Would you be mad if someone just came and took away all of your paychecks between 1998 and 2011 after you'd put in the time?

I'm a proud PSU grad, but I kind of agree with The Commish on this one. I get it if you are the Paterno family and what it means to his legacy, but as an alum, I really couldn't care less.

As a fan and an alum, I got to enjoy those wins as they were happening. Taking the wins away from Paterno and the school didn't retroactively make me not enjy the wins, and the restoration of the same didn't make me remember that enjoyment.

As a fan, student or alum, i really fail to see what the big deal is.

I can see it from both sides. Why fight so hard to have the rights back to "officially" say Joe Paterno has 409 wins when anyone who hasn't been living under a rock the past 40 some odd years knows this. I guess it's the principle. JoePa's name has been drugged through the mud so much that those who believed (and their is a lot) in him wanted to fight for him to restore the accomplishments that he earned. I thought it was incredibly dumb stipulation amongst all the decent decree BS to begin with.

The wins have been restored, but has his reputation? I think after looking at the relevant evidence, it is hard to think that he was not at least complicit in some of what went on here. Not necessary because of bad intent, but perhaps paralysis by analysis, or passing the buck up the chain of command?

 

[Tom Servo]

Wins restored!

#### YEAH!

409 #####es!!!!!!!!

 

[The Commish]

Genuine question....WTF cares about wins being taken away or restored after the fact? Why? Seems childish on both sides of this bizarre line.

Not sure I get your reasoning. Why wouldn't someone have a right to be upset if someone arbitrarily took away something they earned? Would you be mad if someone just came and took away all of your paychecks between 1998 and 2011 after you'd put in the time?

They can have all the paper checks they want. The money's long gone.

Not sure I understand the comparison either. Seems apples to oranges. My reasoning is this. The NCAA can do nothing to alter the past. Everyone knows they won those games. It doesn't matter what it says on some piece of NCAA paper somewhere, but people get really bent out of shape because the NCAA changed some record keeping piece of paper in their office?

ETA: And I am not suggesting it's not your right to be upset. It certainly is. Just doesn't make any sense to me that you are.

I guess some place more value in formal recognition than others. I get what you're saying. I think you get the concept of my analogy. I couldn't relate it to you specifically. Maybe it was a reach. You and I know now who had the most wins, but it's still nice to know you're in the record book for that. It might matter a lot in 50 years when fewer people were alive when Paterno was.

By your logic, do you think they should just throw out the concept of formal tracked records altogether? I mean, as long as people remember, right?

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.

Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

 

[Tom Servo]

So, when do the trophies we gave back come back?

 

[roarlions]

I'm not sure the Paterno family cares as much about the # of wins as much as about his reputation. But I think a lot of former players cared a lot about those wins being restored, as some have already tweeted about it today.

 

[Fat Nick]

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.


Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

I mean, to each their own. It matters to me, and probably a lot of other Nittany Lion fans out there. Nobody would disagree that longevity is part of the most wins...but in addition to wins, his longevity, across ANY sport, is impressive in itself. I agree that there are a million different "lenses," but "most wins," is a pretty big one. It's not like "Most 1st downs in the rain on a Thursday night game."

The reputation thing will forever depend on who you ask...I don't think anything will change that.

 

[GoFishTN]

So glad JoePa has been made whole. That really was the big concern all along.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

So glad JoePa has been made whole. That really was the big concern all along.

I almost couldn't read this post as it is so dripping with

 

[The Commish]

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.


Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

I mean, to each their own. It matters to me, and probably a lot of other Nittany Lion fans out there. Nobody would disagree that longevity is part of the most wins...but in addition to wins, his longevity, across ANY sport, is impressive in itself. I agree that there are a million different "lenses," but "most wins," is a pretty big one. It's not like "Most 1st downs in the rain on a Thursday night game."

The reputation thing will forever depend on who you ask...I don't think anything will change that.

I understand that it matters to you. I was asking why. You know how many games he won regardless of what the NCAA says. Most agree that the NCAA is a joke, so I really struggle to understand why people seek validation/recognition etc from that organization. My wife's an over achieving professor that has done more in her job in 7 years than the most tenured people at her school. They are all dinosaurs and science has passed them by. Their opinions mean zilch to anyone in the research world yet she gets bent out of shape if they don't acknowledge her work. I see people putting value in the NCAA in a very similar light. It's a joke of an organization, especially when it comes to things like this. I'll never understand why their opinion means anything to anyone I guess.

ETA: And I think looking at success through the lens of a single statistic is the very definition of tunnel vision lens...very small IMO.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.


Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

I mean, to each their own. It matters to me, and probably a lot of other Nittany Lion fans out there. Nobody would disagree that longevity is part of the most wins...but in addition to wins, his longevity, across ANY sport, is impressive in itself. I agree that there are a million different "lenses," but "most wins," is a pretty big one. It's not like "Most 1st downs in the rain on a Thursday night game."

The reputation thing will forever depend on who you ask...I don't think anything will change that.

I understand that it matters to you. I was asking why. You know how many games he won regardless of what the NCAA says. Most agree that the NCAA is a joke, so I really struggle to understand why people seek validation/recognition etc from that organization. My wife's an over achieving professor that has done more in her job in 7 years than the most tenured people at her school. They are all dinosaurs and science has passed them by. Their opinions mean zilch to anyone in the research world yet she gets bent out of shape if they don't acknowledge her work. I see people putting value in the NCAA in a very similar light. It's a joke of an organization, especially when it comes to things like this. I'll never understand why their opinion means anything to anyone I guess.

ETA: And I think looking at success through the lens of a single statistic is the very definition of tunnel vision lens...very small IMO.

I typed out a long response, but it was all over the place and it actually seemed like I was yelling at you. So I deleted it before posing it. But the simple answer (and not yelling at all, GB) is I think people in PA have a huge tie to PSU, and they felt like it was an attack on all of us. Our school. This was just a small vindication.

It's hard to put into words, and I'm not saying we're right.

 

[Fat Nick]

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.


Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

I mean, to each their own. It matters to me, and probably a lot of other Nittany Lion fans out there. Nobody would disagree that longevity is part of the most wins...but in addition to wins, his longevity, across ANY sport, is impressive in itself. I agree that there are a million different "lenses," but "most wins," is a pretty big one. It's not like "Most 1st downs in the rain on a Thursday night game."

The reputation thing will forever depend on who you ask...I don't think anything will change that.

I understand that it matters to you. I was asking why. You know how many games he won regardless of what the NCAA says. Most agree that the NCAA is a joke, so I really struggle to understand why people seek validation/recognition etc from that organization. My wife's an over achieving professor that has done more in her job in 7 years than the most tenured people at her school. They are all dinosaurs and science has passed them by. Their opinions mean zilch to anyone in the research world yet she gets bent out of shape if they don't acknowledge her work. I see people putting value in the NCAA in a very similar light. It's a joke of an organization, especially when it comes to things like this. I'll never understand why their opinion means anything to anyone I guess.

ETA: And I think looking at success through the lens of a single statistic is the very definition of tunnel vision lens...very small IMO.

I see your point. I guess it matters because, NCAA being a joke or not, they're the "governing body" of college athletics. Until someone replaces them, they control the "record." I know it's just an arbitrary designation in the eyes of some, but still. Which brings us to your question of why it matters to me...I don't know, at least not to where I can quantify it in words...I think it's as much the vindication of them having to give it back after "taking it away" as much if not more than anything. Kind of something that I think a lot of people viewed as unfair being set back as it was. The actual record-breaking win meant less to me than getting this back. Some interesting psychology under that I'm sure...

 

[Tom Servo]

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.


Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

I mean, to each their own. It matters to me, and probably a lot of other Nittany Lion fans out there. Nobody would disagree that longevity is part of the most wins...but in addition to wins, his longevity, across ANY sport, is impressive in itself. I agree that there are a million different "lenses," but "most wins," is a pretty big one. It's not like "Most 1st downs in the rain on a Thursday night game."

The reputation thing will forever depend on who you ask...I don't think anything will change that.

I understand that it matters to you. I was asking why. You know how many games he won regardless of what the NCAA says. Most agree that the NCAA is a joke, so I really struggle to understand why people seek validation/recognition etc from that organization. My wife's an over achieving professor that has done more in her job in 7 years than the most tenured people at her school. They are all dinosaurs and science has passed them by. Their opinions mean zilch to anyone in the research world yet she gets bent out of shape if they don't acknowledge her work. I see people putting value in the NCAA in a very similar light. It's a joke of an organization, especially when it comes to things like this. I'll never understand why their opinion means anything to anyone I guess.

ETA: And I think looking at success through the lens of a single statistic is the very definition of tunnel vision lens...very small IMO.

Yes, we all know JoePa won those games. The fact that the NCAA is a dumpster fire on other matters doesn't negate the fact that they still run college football and their recognition does mean something.

I think you'd find that if we were cheating to gain a competitive advantage or otherwise breaking recruiting rules, yeah, I'd totally understand having the wins vacated (not withstanding that vacating wins is a stupid punishment). But, since PSU didn't gain any advantage by this situation, vacating wins is even more stupid as a punishment.

 

[Tom Servo]

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.


Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

I mean, to each their own. It matters to me, and probably a lot of other Nittany Lion fans out there. Nobody would disagree that longevity is part of the most wins...but in addition to wins, his longevity, across ANY sport, is impressive in itself. I agree that there are a million different "lenses," but "most wins," is a pretty big one. It's not like "Most 1st downs in the rain on a Thursday night game."

The reputation thing will forever depend on who you ask...I don't think anything will change that.

I understand that it matters to you. I was asking why. You know how many games he won regardless of what the NCAA says. Most agree that the NCAA is a joke, so I really struggle to understand why people seek validation/recognition etc from that organization. My wife's an over achieving professor that has done more in her job in 7 years than the most tenured people at her school. They are all dinosaurs and science has passed them by. Their opinions mean zilch to anyone in the research world yet she gets bent out of shape if they don't acknowledge her work. I see people putting value in the NCAA in a very similar light. It's a joke of an organization, especially when it comes to things like this. I'll never understand why their opinion means anything to anyone I guess.

ETA: And I think looking at success through the lens of a single statistic is the very definition of tunnel vision lens...very small IMO.

I see your point. I guess it matters because, NCAA being a joke or not, they're the "governing body" of college athletics. Until someone replaces them, they control the "record." I know it's just an arbitrary designation in the eyes of some, but still. Which brings us to your question of why it matters to me...I don't know, at least not to where I can quantify it in words...I think it's as much the vindication of them having to give it back after "taking it away" as much if not more than anything. Kind of something that I think a lot of people viewed as unfair being set back as it was. The actual record-breaking win meant less to me than getting this back. Some interesting psychology under that I'm sure...

IMO, it's a vindication that the NCAA WAY overstepped their bounds in meting out punishment. As I just mentioned, vacating wins is a dumb punishment even when a school is being punished for a competitive advantage...even less so here.

I'm completely fine with the $60 MM fine; it could've been $160 MM for all I care. But to penalize the football team that had ZERO to do with it, that was what I thought was beyond the pale. This is the last piece that proves the NCAA was dead wrong to lay the hammer down like they did.

 

[The Commish]

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.


Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

I mean, to each their own. It matters to me, and probably a lot of other Nittany Lion fans out there. Nobody would disagree that longevity is part of the most wins...but in addition to wins, his longevity, across ANY sport, is impressive in itself. I agree that there are a million different "lenses," but "most wins," is a pretty big one. It's not like "Most 1st downs in the rain on a Thursday night game."

The reputation thing will forever depend on who you ask...I don't think anything will change that.

I understand that it matters to you. I was asking why. You know how many games he won regardless of what the NCAA says. Most agree that the NCAA is a joke, so I really struggle to understand why people seek validation/recognition etc from that organization. My wife's an over achieving professor that has done more in her job in 7 years than the most tenured people at her school. They are all dinosaurs and science has passed them by. Their opinions mean zilch to anyone in the research world yet she gets bent out of shape if they don't acknowledge her work. I see people putting value in the NCAA in a very similar light. It's a joke of an organization, especially when it comes to things like this. I'll never understand why their opinion means anything to anyone I guess.

ETA: And I think looking at success through the lens of a single statistic is the very definition of tunnel vision lens...very small IMO.

I typed out a long response, but it was all over the place and it actually seemed like I was yelling at you. So I deleted it before posing it. But the simple answer (and not yelling at all, GB) is I think people in PA have a huge tie to PSU, and they felt like it was an attack on all of us. Our school. This was just a small vindication.

It's hard to put into words, and I'm not saying we're right.

No worries GB. I will say this (as I say to my wife all the time about her work), you guys give the NCAA way too much power and influence in your opinions. I appreciate all the responses after this one as well and this comment goes for them as well. Just my

ETA: From the beginning I stood by the position that the NCAA had no business in this. This belonged in the legal system and the legal system alone. And I was pulling for all the lawsuits to really pile up against the university and the parties involved. However, I too thought it was stupid to punish the people with nothing to do with it.

 

[Fat Nick]

Well, I'm not an "greatest of all time at xxxxxx' kind of person to begin with. I think things change so much that comparing two athletes from two different eras is relatively pointless. One can track all the records all they want. Doesn't matter to me, but I don't see the point honestly. We all know that Barry Sanders was probably the best back of his generation, but the stats don't back that up, primarily because he decided to go out on his own terms. As to Paterno's wins? I dunno. You sorta expect to see a significant number of wins the longer one is a coach. His longevity in the sport was a sizable part of the quantity with several other factors. There are a million different lenses of "best" out there. While a good number of them will use wins as a significant factor, not all of them will.


Personally, I'd be more concerned with the reputation than anything else. I'm not sure that will ever be restored.

I mean, to each their own. It matters to me, and probably a lot of other Nittany Lion fans out there. Nobody would disagree that longevity is part of the most wins...but in addition to wins, his longevity, across ANY sport, is impressive in itself. I agree that there are a million different "lenses," but "most wins," is a pretty big one. It's not like "Most 1st downs in the rain on a Thursday night game."

The reputation thing will forever depend on who you ask...I don't think anything will change that.

I understand that it matters to you. I was asking why. You know how many games he won regardless of what the NCAA says. Most agree that the NCAA is a joke, so I really struggle to understand why people seek validation/recognition etc from that organization. My wife's an over achieving professor that has done more in her job in 7 years than the most tenured people at her school. They are all dinosaurs and science has passed them by. Their opinions mean zilch to anyone in the research world yet she gets bent out of shape if they don't acknowledge her work. I see people putting value in the NCAA in a very similar light. It's a joke of an organization, especially when it comes to things like this. I'll never understand why their opinion means anything to anyone I guess.

ETA: And I think looking at success through the lens of a single statistic is the very definition of tunnel vision lens...very small IMO.

I typed out a long response, but it was all over the place and it actually seemed like I was yelling at you. So I deleted it before posing it. But the simple answer (and not yelling at all, GB) is I think people in PA have a huge tie to PSU, and they felt like it was an attack on all of us. Our school. This was just a small vindication.

It's hard to put into words, and I'm not saying we're right.

Well said Sheik. Even if it wasn't your long rant.

This is something I've struggled with during this whole thing. Your college is part of your identity, and I think a lot of PSU folks were basically chastized for remaining loyal to any aspect of their school during this. Even parts that had ZERO to do with football. It became "All PSU is bad. If you support PSU, you support Sandusky." I felt personally attacked many times during all of this...maybe sometimes I was, many times I wasn't. It undoubtedly changed the public perception of my school. These little "wins," are big wins to us. I get 100% why they might not seem important to others.

 

[Tom Servo]

ETA: From the beginning I stood by the position that the NCAA had no business in this. This belonged in the legal system and the legal system alone. And I was pulling for all the lawsuits to really pile up against the university and the parties involved. However, I too thought it was stupid to punish the people with nothing to do with it.

Deadspin agrees:

The only takeaway here is that the NCAA continues to be a completely useless organization. The only response it could muster in the aftermath of the Sandusky scandal was to blindly and uselessly swing an axe at Penn State's football program, for no other reason than to justify its own existence. And now, just a few years later, they are just quietly mopping up the mess that they never really had any business making. Nothing the NCAA does ever matters.

 

[The Commish]

ETA: From the beginning I stood by the position that the NCAA had no business in this. This belonged in the legal system and the legal system alone. And I was pulling for all the lawsuits to really pile up against the university and the parties involved. However, I too thought it was stupid to punish the people with nothing to do with it.

Deadspin agrees:

The only takeaway here is that the NCAA continues to be a completely useless organization. The only response it could muster in the aftermath of the Sandusky scandal was to blindly and uselessly swing an axe at Penn State's football program, for no other reason than to justify its own existence. And now, just a few years later, they are just quietly mopping up the mess that they never really had any business making. Nothing the NCAA does ever matters.

There are plenty here in the FFA that were laughing at this "ridiculous" opinion too...now they are nowhere to be found.

 

[roarlions]

I typed out a long response, but it was all over the place and it actually seemed like I was yelling at you. So I deleted it before posing it. But the simple answer (and not yelling at all, GB) is I think people in PA have a huge tie to PSU, and they felt like it was an attack on all of us. Our school. This was just a small vindication.

It's hard to put into words, and I'm not saying we're right.

Well said Sheik. Even if it wasn't your long rant.

This is something I've struggled with during this whole thing. Your college is part of your identity, and I think a lot of PSU folks were basically chastized for remaining loyal to any aspect of their school during this. Even parts that had ZERO to do with football. It became "All PSU is bad. If you support PSU, you support Sandusky." I felt personally attacked many times during all of this...maybe sometimes I was, many times I wasn't. It undoubtedly changed the public perception of my school. These little "wins," are big wins to us. I get 100% why they might not seem important to others.

Agree with both of you, especially the part about supporting the school or the football program being the same as supporting Sandusky. Saw it a lot right on this message board and all over the media.

Also agree with Tom Servo about vindication regarding the NCAA overstepping its authority. The one thing I regret about the announcement today is the part that states the NCAA acted in good faith when it imposed the original sanctions. None of that was done in good faith.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

I'm late to the party...busy day. Posts are too long to read on a Friday night (drinking).

Just glad the wins are back, and they mean a little more to Penn State than to an ordinary school, as they restore Paterno as the all-time winningest D1 coach.

The discussion has already moved on to putting the statue back. I don't think it will be too long until that happens.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

The ncaa is a joke. They should have never made this about Paterno in the first place.

 

[Moonlight]

I'm late to the party...busy day. Posts are too long to read on a Friday night (drinking).

Just glad the wins are back, and they mean a little more to Penn State than to an ordinary school, as they restore Paterno as the all-time winningest D1 coach.

The discussion has already moved on to putting the statue back. I don't think it will be too long until that happens.

I'm late to the party...busy day. Posts are too long to read on a Friday night (drinking).

Just glad the wins are back, and they mean a little more to Penn State than to an ordinary school, as they restore Paterno as the all-time winningest D1 coach.

The discussion has already moved on to putting the statue back. I don't think it will be too long until that happens.

Where's the memorial to all the abused kids that Joe"Pa" enabled that sick f..k to abuse to protect Penn State football.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I'm late to the party...busy day. Posts are too long to read on a Friday night (drinking).

Just glad the wins are back, and they mean a little more to Penn State than to an ordinary school, as they restore Paterno as the all-time winningest D1 coach.

The discussion has already moved on to putting the statue back. I don't think it will be too long until that happens.

I'm late to the party...busy day. Posts are too long to read on a Friday night (drinking).

Just glad the wins are back, and they mean a little more to Penn State than to an ordinary school, as they restore Paterno as the all-time winningest D1 coach.

The discussion has already moved on to putting the statue back. I don't think it will be too long until that happens.

Where's the memorial to all the abused kids that Joe"Pa" enabled that sick f..k to abuse to protect Penn State football.

I think it's still in design phase.