Sweeper
Footballguy
And it started out with so much potential too. That potential ended about half way through the title.
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LJ outperforms LT today (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Beergogglz
- Start date
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Wingnut
Footballguy
He is well on his way :XLT is just sick. I always say B Sanders was the best with J Brown a close second. But LT looks like the best ever
prosopis
Arizona Chupacabra
I am having a hard time relating to LJ right now
videoguy505
Footballguy
Whoever started this thread, I hate you.
The only way you could make it up to me is to start a thread entitled "LT won't sit out the second half of tonight's game."
The only way you could make it up to me is to start a thread entitled "LT won't sit out the second half of tonight's game."
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
Beergogglz doesn't have that kind of power. Tomlinson is just that good.
-OZ-
Footballguy
This is pretty much the same comment I made while watching the game. I grew up a Barry fan, thought he was awesome. Now I see LT has almost the same elusiveness (not quite, but it's close) and he's got the power Barry lacked. I never saw Brown, Sayers or the earlier greats, but I have a hard time imagining anyone this dominant.LT is just sick. I always say B Sanders was the best with J Brown a close second. But LT looks like the best ever
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
And the percentage of carries for positive gains definitely favors Tomlinson.This is pretty much the same comment I made while watching the game. I grew up a Barry fan, thought he was awesome. Now I see LT has almost the same elusiveness (not quite, but it's close) and he's got the power Barry lacked.LT is just sick. I always say B Sanders was the best with J Brown a close second. But LT looks like the best ever
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
LT is amazing, but in an Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Jim Brown kinda way. I saw Sanders play, and there was nothing like him. Same with a guy like Marino. There are plenty of guys in the same breath, but to watch him move in the pocket and then BOOM the ball was gone was a thing of beauty. Same with guys like MJ, Bird, and Magic.And the percentage of carries for positive gains definitely favors Tomlinson.This is pretty much the same comment I made while watching the game. I grew up a Barry fan, thought he was awesome. Now I see LT has almost the same elusiveness (not quite, but it's close) and he's got the power Barry lacked.LT is just sick. I always say B Sanders was the best with J Brown a close second. But LT looks like the best ever
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
LT's as "one of a kind" as any of them, gatorman.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
Sorry, don't buy it. Sanders was the most unbelievable runner I have ever seen. LT is a great runner and receiver, but Sanders was in a class by himself. I am not talking about rankings or stats or whatever, but simply jaw dropping, can you believe that moments. LT is special the way Peyton Manning is special, but LT vs. Barry is like comparing D wade to Jordan.Again, IMHO.
The Redbeard
Footballguy
I see your point - but what if B Wade had been doing what he did last year for the past 6 years?
Barry Sanders is no Micheal Jordan. He isn't even the consensus #1 RB let alone football player.Sanders had some special runs but was also a drive killer at times b/c he'd lose 4 yards on 1st down.I never got to see much of Brown or Sayers but I can't imagine they were any more dominant than Tomlinson.Tomlinson set the NFL record for most TD's in their 1st 100 games....any he did it in 93 games, so he could easily add at least 7-10 more to that total.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
The only players I can think of that might have been close are Faulk and Emmit but I don't know that they distanced themselves as much from the #2 as LT has this year.Keep in mind that Manning has not played yet this week not that Manning can catch LT.. just that the gap will close some after Manning plays in some leagues. He has been the #2 in my league this year. Right now he is #4 behind LT Brees and Vick.LT is not doubling thier point totals but he does have a 100 point lead. So that is about 7pt/game difference. Which is like having an extra average player starting for you every week.Unlucky said:
cracKer
Shawn Culcasi
PPR, Tomlinson has scored 377.4 over the last 10 weeks (low of 29.35)
non-PPR, Tomlinson has scored 345.2 over the last 10 weeks (low of 23.84)
last years overall leaders:
PPR/Shaun Alexander 378.8 (12 games under Tomlinson's low)
non-PPR/ Shaun Alexander 361.8 (9 games under Tomlinson's low)
non-PPR, Tomlinson has scored 345.2 over the last 10 weeks (low of 23.84)
last years overall leaders:
PPR/Shaun Alexander 378.8 (12 games under Tomlinson's low)
non-PPR/ Shaun Alexander 361.8 (9 games under Tomlinson's low)
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I expect to hit this question on the PFR blog later this week.Unlucky said:
Beergogglz
Footballguy
Amen to that. My initial post was wishful thinking more than anything else. Tomlinson is a friggin' beast and LJ doesn't even belong in the same conversation with him right now.Despyzer said:
-OZ-
Footballguy
I almost feel ashamed for saying this, but Barry was not a complete RB. Amazing, electirfying, perhaps the most exciting player to watch ever, but not complete. LT is more similar to Jordan than Barry was. If you want to make the comparison of RB to QB, I'd use use Barry: Vick, LT: Steve Young.Gatorman said:
kbreaker
Footballguy
smcindoe
Footballguy
From a VPD perspective, this may be the topper. For football, at least... I wonder where he ranks in all sports, period?I don't think we'll ever see a fantasy player like Wayne Gretzky was back in the 80s (although back then they were just "pools", not "fantasy"). He was so good that most leagues ended up either making him ineligible, or passing a "Gretzky rule" where his goals and assists were drafted seperately.For baseball, with it's rotisserie scoring system, I seem to remember reading that one of Rickey Henderson's seasons was the all-time best for overall value (as compared to other players in a given year). My guess is it was his 1985 season, when he hit .300+ with 24 HRs, 80 steals and lead the league in runs.Not sure on the other sports...Unlucky said:
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Thanks for sharing.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
To be fair if you were really talking about a "complete" RB in the same way MJ was a "complete" basketball player and didn't have a single part of his game where he was only average I don't think Tomlinson quite fits that bill either. He's an average blocker at best and I'm sure plenty of people will roll their eyes at that but it doesn't make it less true. There is a single weakness to his game.The most "complete" RB I've ever seen play the game is Walter Payton. He was top-5 in every phase of the game. While it's true he was never the runner that an LT or Sanders was(and Payton didn't exactly suck.... remember he only had good teams with good OL's in the very late stages of his career) he had no weaknesses to his game. IMO LT is the best runner ever, less elusive than Sanders but with a much, much better nose for the endzone. Walter Payton is the most "complete" RB ever.Your always on thin ice when making these comparisons because you're talking about 3 of the top 5 best RB's to ever play the game but that's the way I see it.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Brees is outscoring Manning is most scoring systems this year.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Also, I hate to break it you guys, but LT>>>>Barry.
jonessed
Footballguy
That's horse####. He's always been good at picking up blitzes. You can google about ten articles right now that would compliment his blocking if you find it so hard to believe. I'm not saying he is better than Payton or that he is in the top 5 in the league, but he is definitely above average. To preface your comment with, "if someone disagrees with me it doesn't make it any less true" is also horse####.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Not after last week he isn't. I am not sure what scoring system would cause Brees to outscore Manning right now but it is not a common one.They are both close. The closest players to LT in 6pts for all TD systems.Otherwise it is LJ who is 2nd in 4pts for passing TDs.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Um.... stike a nerve?I've seen a lot of SD games and imo Tomlinson is an average blocker. No better. Certainly not anywhere close to the level of a Walter Payton. If you disagree, that's your right. You seem pretty emotionaly invested in how LaDainian Tomlinson blocks so I certainly won't argue the point.BTW when I said "if someone disagrees with me it doesn't make it any less true" I was speaking to the point whether or not blocking should be considered as part of being a "complete" back, not stating my evaluation of a players blocking is better than anyone elses. I can see how that was unclear the way I worded it.
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switz
Footballguy
No nerves stuck here, but LT is one of the better blockers at his position. I would think if you were to compare him against other players at his position, you'd agree. Maybe he's not top-5, though right now I can't think of 5 better blockers at RB.
jonessed
Footballguy
I took that as a hit and run which was what I reacted to. Not so much the blocking comment. It seems I misunderstood. RB blocking is hard to measure analytically, but you are the first person I have heard claim that LT is a below par blocker.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
Fair enough, I just know some people glaze over when you bring blocking into any debate over which is the best RB ever argument. Some don't think it should matter or matter very little and I disagree.To be clear, I never said he was below average I just have always though of him as average but no better. I could probably go as far as to say "good" but I've never thought of him as a very good and nowhere near a GREAT blocker the way Walter Payton was. LT2 isn't even the best blocking RB on his own team so I don't think there's much chance of him being anywhere near the top 5 in the league... but thus far my opinion appears in the minority. I respect switz's opinion and am surprised how highly he thinks of Tomlinsons blocking.
switz
Footballguy
Much appreciated...I'm not saying LT is a great blocker historically... but in today's day and age, compared to his peers, he is among the better blockers at RB. Is he as good as Payton was? No.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
hmm as far as LT's blocking it might be a short memory thing.. he did whiff on a couple blocks in the last game against KC.
That is about the only time I can recall him missing blocks though. I have seen LT stone many a blitzer.
His blocking ops have been less than some Rbs over the years because he is such an excellent reciever they often send him out on routes instead. SD has more targets in the passing game now than they have in the LT years and so he isn't being released as much as before while the Chargers try to make the defense focus on other players.
As an aside it seems like Rivers throws to the recievers more than Brees did.
That is about the only time I can recall him missing blocks though. I have seen LT stone many a blitzer.
His blocking ops have been less than some Rbs over the years because he is such an excellent reciever they often send him out on routes instead. SD has more targets in the passing game now than they have in the LT years and so he isn't being released as much as before while the Chargers try to make the defense focus on other players.
As an aside it seems like Rivers throws to the recievers more than Brees did.
The Jacket
Footballguy
Barry Sanders never had an offensive line as good as San Diego's in his entire career.
I know most people get stiff at the thought of LT, and he's great and all, but his line was DESTROYING the Chiefs front 7 on Sunday. That 85-yarder he didn't even get touched -- not because he's so God-like, but because it was easy stuff.
What he did in 2003 absolutely blows away what he's done this year, IMO. That's why stats are so misleading.
I know most people get stiff at the thought of LT, and he's great and all, but his line was DESTROYING the Chiefs front 7 on Sunday. That 85-yarder he didn't even get touched -- not because he's so God-like, but because it was easy stuff.
What he did in 2003 absolutely blows away what he's done this year, IMO. That's why stats are so misleading.
switz
Footballguy
I don't want to take anything away from Barry - one of the best all-time RBs there was - but his OL never mattered. Barry was one of the most undisciplined runners I've ever seen. There were many times his OL blocked a play perfectly, and Barry would improvise, and get tackled for a loss. LT benefits from his OL, only as much as he trusts his blockers and follows the play as it's designed.
The Jacket
Footballguy
People never used this kind of excuse when Priest Holmes was tearing it up.
switz
Footballguy
Huh? If Priest didn't trust his blockers and run the plays as designed he would be better? What are you trying to say?Some people can't grasp that an RB using his offensive lines blocking properly is part of what makes that RB good. Having a good OL shouldn't take away from an RB. Emmitt had a great, if not the best at the time, OL... does that make him not as good an RB???People never used this kind of excuse when Priest Holmes was tearing it up.
The Jacket
Footballguy
That Tomlinson's line NEVER takes any credit away from LT, but that it has in all other cases where the RB had a great line in front of him, ala Priest Holmes.
I actually agree with you, but in my experience I've never seen this kind of opinion shared on other running backs. It's kind of a double-standard. If you don't call it that way, that's great.People still don't believe that San Diego's line is great. They're wrong. Just because they aren't household names (Will Shields didn't deserve a Pro Bowl berth at all, btw, and Waters' inclusion is questionable at best) it doesn't mean they don't excel in what they do.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
There's a reason for that. Tomlinson has produced at a level of excellence whether he has had a really good line (like this year and in 2004) or whether he has had an awful line (like last year and the first two years of his career).
glock
"Don't grumble, give a whistle!"
When DO people start talking about the SD line as if they mean something? 
Holmes was one of the most patient backs I've ever seen. Plenty of clips out there of him gliding along with his hand on a blockers back- then accelerating through a crack in the line for a big gain. It's always about that great KC line. I never thought I would have to say it, but IMHO the Padre is often underated in these threads.
There were plenty of times where he made defenders look like children...
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
Huh?
smcindoe
Footballguy
My guess is next year.The buzz has started this year, but it's too late to really get going. But I think enough people heard about the SD line around the time that LT broke the record that by next season you'll see the SD line start to get the star treatment.glock said:When DO people start talking about the SD line as if they mean something?
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
Two things really generate a good rep for an offensive line, Pro-Bowl appearances at more than one position ('90s Cowboys, for example) and/or more than one back being successful running behind them (currently the Broncos). Turner has been running really well in SD, but not frequently enough to grab a lot of attention (outside FF circles). If something was to happen to Tomlinson, and Turner picked right up for him in a game or two, the O-line's reputation would be sealed.As for Larry Johnson, his line has produced multiple Pro-Bowlers and has seen two RBs at the top of the league in the last couple of years. No one's going to buy that it's all LJ yet.My guess is next year.The buzz has started this year, but it's too late to really get going. But I think enough people heard about the SD line around the time that LT broke the record that by next season you'll see the SD line start to get the star treatment.glock said:When DO people start talking about the SD line as if they mean something?
