MAGA hats/clothing plus politically related apparel discussion thread (3 Viewers)

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Fair point. There are a few places where just wearing the other colors will get you in trouble. Oakland comes to mind. But by and large, the expectation is a fan can wear the opposing jersey and mind his own business and he won't be attacked. 

Eagles Exception, but point taken.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I don’t like this analogy at all. You’re talking about sports rivalries and comparing them to people who are knowingly attempting to make offensive political statements with their clothing. IMO not close to the same thing. 

So if someone wears Obama gear, for example, an obama hater can go take a crap on his food?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I think politics has become much like a sports rivalry ... but sometimes it’s hard to tell which side is the Raiders fans in that analogy.

I think Trump is awful and his supporters are often misinformed about current events and insufficiently enamored of the rule of law, institutional integrity, etc. — but at least they generally don’t start attacking people for wearing the opposing team’s hat.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Strongly disagree. Politics isn't sports, it has serious real life consequences. Wearing an Eagles jersey to Cowboys Stadium tells the opposing fans that you are hoping your team scores more points than their team, nothing more. We all enjoy it but at the end of the day it's just a diversion that won't change anyone's lives.

Wearing a MAGA hat in public tells people (among other things) that you think undocumented immigrants are a stain on this country and you want them deported,  that you have no problem with their children being ripped from their arms and thrown into detention centers, that you approve of someone stereotyping Mexicans as rapists and drug dealers, that you are OK with someone using the dehumanizing language of genocide to describe Hispanic immigrants, and so on. Anyone who has worked in a restaurant knows that they are often staffed by a number of Hispanic immigrants, often undocumented, and when you wear that hat that's the message you're sending those people. 

I chose the analogy just to make the simplified point that while certain things are never OK, there are also some extreme cases where some "victim-blaming" is inevitable and rational. That's why I went beyond just wearing the jersey to describe a person who chooses to antagonize the people he knows he will encounter. Wearing a MAGA hat does the same thing, although I don't know if wearers do it knowingly or just out of ignorance regarding the message it sends. That's what I was going for.

No, it really doesn't mean that.  That's your projection onto that person

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

To put it another way- imagine if instead of wearing the Eagles jersey, the Eagles fan wore a t-shirt that said "Cowboys fans are rapists and animals" on the front and "Cowboys fans should lose their children" on the back. Still think they've done nothing wrong and everyone would take a live and let live approach?

You sure read a lot of stuff into a hat that isn’t on the hat.

 

[TobiasFunke]

You sure read a lot of stuff into a hat that isn’t on the hat.

How else would you read someone choosing to broadcast their support for Donald Trump, if not as support for his most prominent politics and rhetoric? 

 

[Da Guru]

No, it really doesn't mean that.  That's your projection onto that person

I would never wear any political type of clothing of any kind..but who gets to decide what a hat means? Who gets to put the label on people?

What if it means I like how the economy is going?  I like putting America first?  I have no idea but it could mean 20 different things..who are we to judge a persons intentions? Maybe they are just life long Republicans who knows.  I certainly would not ask anyone who wears any type of clothing what they mean by it and it is not up to me to judge them.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I would never wear any political type of clothing of any kind..but who gets to decide what a hat means? Who gets to put the label on people?

What if it means I like how the economy is going?  I like putting America first?  I have no idea but it could mean 20 different things..who are we to judge a person intentions? Maybe they are just life long Republicans who knows.  I certainly would not ask anyone who wears any type of clothing what they mean by it and it is not up to me to judge them.

I judge them.  it is not up to me to visit my judgments upon them through violent, or disturbingly antisocial and un-hygienic conduct..

 

[timschochet]

I was simply responding to Tobias' analogy. 

And I think you're wrong if you think every MAGA hat wearing person is intentionally trying to make an offensive statement. I think some actually support the President. 

I don’t. It depends on the situation. 

If you’re wearing a MAGA hat at a Trump rally I don’t think you’re trying to offend anyone. If you wear it to a liberal or progressive gathering, I think you are. Likewise if you wore anti-Trump gear to a Trump rally, I think you’re trying to be offensive. My objection is comparing this to sports; it places an undeserved levity on this sort of thing. 

That being said, I do believe that MAGA has come to represent some very offensive ideas beyond simple support for President Trump, but I recognize that’s a subjective opinion on my part and I don’t expect everyone to share my view on that (including some who wear MAGA gear.) 

 

[timschochet]

How else would you read someone choosing to broadcast their support for Donald Trump, if not as support for his most prominent politics and rhetoric? 

The best answer is that people are not consistent. 

 

[Doug B]

I don’t like this analogy at all. You’re talking about sports rivalries and comparing them to people who are knowingly attempting to make offensive political statements with their clothing. IMO not close to the same thing. 

Wearing a MAGA hat -- in the absence of any other action -- is at the level of "fighting words"?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

How else would you read someone choosing to broadcast their support for Donald Trump, if not as support for his most prominent politics and rhetoric? 

“I’m on Team Republican because I want a strong economy and fewer abortions” is one possibility. “I’m on Team Trump because I oppose corruption and only an outsider can clean up Washington” is another. “I favor whatever team Hillary is playing against because her emails were a travesty.”

There are plenty of misinformed-but-not-evil reasons to be an Eagles fan or a Raiders fan, especially if you live in Philadelphia or Oakland, which many people do.

 

[Doug B]

I was in Nashville in the rooftop bar of Acme Feed and Seed by Nisson stadium on Saturday afternoon..2 big black dudes that looked like football players were drinking and had MAGA hats on. Nobody said a dam word to them.

Exactly ... in the real world, it's rarely as simple as "MAGA hats equals HATE!!!!" People are complex.

 

[squistion]

Wearing a MAGA hat in public tells people (among other things) that you think undocumented immigrants are a stain on this country and you want them deported,  that you have no problem with their children being ripped from their arms and thrown into detention centers, that you approve of someone stereotyping Mexicans as rapists and drug dealers, that you are OK with someone using the dehumanizing language of genocide to describe Hispanic immigrants, and so on. 

Rightfully or wrongfully, that is how the MAGA hat is being perceived by a certain percentage of people in this country, it is guilt by association with Trump's nationalist and arguably racist rhetoric and policies.

The MAGA hat is entering Confederate flag territory, projecting a support of racism or bigotry to many viewers, even though the intent might be simply expressing pride in one's southern origins.

 

[Joe Bryant]

If you’re wearing a MAGA hat at a Trump rally I don’t think you’re trying to offend anyone. 




 

Cool. I think we can agree on that. 

 

[Doug B]

Wearing a MAGA hat in public tells people (among other things) that you think undocumented immigrants are a stain on this country and you want them deported,  that you have no problem with their children being ripped from their arms and thrown into detention centers, that you approve of someone stereotyping Mexicans as rapists and drug dealers, that you are OK with someone using the dehumanizing language of genocide to describe Hispanic immigrants, and so on. Anyone who has worked in a restaurant knows that they are often staffed by a number of Hispanic immigrants, often undocumented, and when you wear that hat that's the message you're sending those people. 

Don't think this is necessarily true. People are great at compartmentalizing ... they can place those particular concerns in this box over here while supporting other aspects of Trump's presidency over there. You don't have to grant them the benefit of the doubt in your own headspace ... but to take real-life action against the keeps-to-himself MAGA hat wearer is beyond the pale.

 

[Doug B]

Certain things are never OK, there are also some extreme cases where some "victim-blaming" is inevitable and rational.

See what I mean? People compartmentalize very, very well.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I would never wear any political type of clothing of any kind..but who gets to decide what a hat means? Who gets to put the label on people?

What if it means I like how the economy is going?  I like putting America first?  I have no idea but it could mean 20 different things..who are we to judge a person intentions? Maybe they are just life long Republicans who knows.  I certainly would not ask anyone who wears any type of clothing what they mean by it and it is not up to me to judge them.

I mean it's not up to you specifically, but yeah, it is up to us collectively.That's how it works. If you wear a swastika, people are going to assume that you are a Nazi even if you're actually a fan of the ancient Illyrians and their symbol for the sun. And you have a responsibility to know that before you wear your Illyrian sun swastika in public.

A MAGA hat means you support Donald Trump, whose central message has been scapegoating Hispanic immigrants and Muslims. Even if you're just doing it because you like some policy unrelated to his immigration, religious discrimination and general cruelty and recklessness, it still means at a minimum you value that policy over those things.  That's the message it sends to many people. And frankly the wearer's intent doesn't really matter in this discussion. No intent short of violence makes a violent or criminal response acceptable.  The question was just whether my reaction (being amazed about someone willingly subjecting themselves to the distinct possibility that the kitchen staff will do unspeakable things to their food) was reasonable. It is.

But hey, if you all don't believe me feel free to wear a MAGA hat to a Muslim or Hispanic establishment or community, to an LGBT establishment or community, in a coastal city, etc. Of course the fact that people rarely do this because they know what message it sends to those people is pretty solid proof that I'm right here.

 

[Doug B]

To put it another way- imagine if instead of wearing the Eagles jersey, the Eagles fan wore a t-shirt that said "Cowboys fans are rapists and animals" on the front and "Cowboys fans should lose their children" on the back. Still think they've done nothing wrong and everyone would take a live and let live approach?

On a t-shirt? And otherwise minding their own business? No bullhorns, no blocking points of egress, no confronting people?

Then yes, the "live and let live" standard should be upheld.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I would never wear any political type of clothing of any kind..but who gets to decide what a hat means? Who gets to put the label on people?

What if it means I like how the economy is going?  I like putting America first?  I have no idea but it could mean 20 different things..who are we to judge a persons intentions? Maybe they are just life long Republicans who knows.  I certainly would not ask anyone who wears any type of clothing what they mean by it and it is not up to me to judge them.

I probably judge them for a brief second but otherwise don't give them a second thought.  I certainly don't think about putting pee, poop, or semen in their food.  That's not only weird it's likely more cruel than whatever the clothing stands for anyway and makes that person at least equally as terrible.

 

[jomar]

is MAGA getting to the same level as a swastika?  if you see a guy walking around with a swastika, do you think he's a Nazi or do you think he's wearing it because of its original meaning?  (I see TF just brought up the swastika too)

at one time maybe MAGA could have been a harmless slogan, but its been co-opted by white nationalists and racists.  as DaGuru said 'I have no idea but it could mean 20 different things..who are we to judge a persons intentions?'.  this is the beauty of things like MAGA and the 'OK' handsignal or Pepe the Frog that have been taken over.  its like a wink to the other racists around you that you're on board but since it can have other meanings, you can defend your use of it

 

[timschochet]

is MAGA getting to the same level as a swastika?  

No. 

 

[Doug B]

How else would you read someone choosing to broadcast their support for Donald Trump, if not as support for his most prominent politics and rhetoric? 

Compartmentalization. When someone goes to a cafeteria, they don't have to eat one of each entree, one of each side and dessert, twenty different soft drinks, etc.

 

[timschochet]

Wearing a MAGA hat -- in the absence of any other action -- is at the level of "fighting words"?

It can be. Again it depends on the circumstances. 

It seems like people on both sides of this debate are trying to make things too simple. This is a complicated subject. 

 

[Doug B]

I judge them.  it is not up to me to visit my judgments upon them through violent, or disturbingly antisocial and un-hygienic conduct..

The heart of the matter. Well said.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Don't think this is necessarily true. People are great at compartmentalizing ... they can place those particular concerns in this box over here while supporting other aspects of Trump's presidency over there. You don't have to grant them the benefit of the doubt in your own headspace ... but to take real-life action against the keeps-to-himself MAGA hat wearer is beyond the pale. 

You (and many others) are conflating the wearer's intention with the message it sends to the outside world. I don't care about the wearer's intentions for purposes of this discussion. I care about the message it sends and whether the wearer can reasonably be expected to know that.

And I've said several times that taking violent or criminal action against someone for wearing a MAGA hat or any other loathsome attire is not OK. I'm not sure how my reaction of amazement that someone would potentially subject themselves to X by weating a MAGA hat has turned into me supporting responding to a MAGA hat with X. I don't think that and I think I've been careful not to say it.

 

[Doug B]

It can be. Again it depends on the circumstances. 

It seems like people on both sides of this debate are trying to make things too simple. This is a complicated subject. 

I agree that it's complicated ... that's why I put a stringent condition on the thought question: Wearing a MAGA hat in the absence of any other action.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

It can be. Again it depends on the circumstances. 

It seems like people on both sides of this debate are trying to make things too simple. This is a complicated subject. 

What circumstances?  If you would fight someone over the clothes they are wearing then that's a lot more on you than the other guy.

 

[Max Power]

Rasicist thoughts against anyone are not cool. But a white person wearing MAGA stuff can be stereotyped and mocked. Colored people with MAGA "have an opinion"

 

[Da Guru]

I mean it's not up to you specifically, but yeah, it is up to us collectively.That's how it works. If you wear a swastika, people are going to assume that you are a Nazi even if you're actually a fan of the ancient Illyrians and their symbol for the sun. And you have a responsibility to know that before you wear your Illyrian sun swastika in public.

A MAGA hat means you support Donald Trump, whose central message has been scapegoating Hispanic immigrants and Muslims. Even if you're just doing it because you like some policy unrelated to his immigration, religious discrimination and general cruelty and recklessness, it still means at a minimum you value that policy over those things.  That's the message it sends to many people. And frankly the wearer's intent doesn't really matter in this discussion. No intent short of violence makes a violent or criminal response acceptable.  The question was just whether my reaction (being amazed about someone willingly subjecting themselves to the distinct possibility that the kitchen staff will do unspeakable things to their food) was reasonable. It is.

But hey, if you all don't believe me feel free to wear a MAGA hat to a Muslim or Hispanic establishment or community, to an LGBT establishment or community, in a coastal city, etc. Of course the fact that people rarely do this because they know what message it sends to those people is pretty solid proof that I'm right here.

What do you think of a person who wears a Che Guevara hat or shirt?   Would you make an instant judgment?

 

[Doug B]

You (and many others) are conflating the wearer's intention with the message it sends to the outside world. I don't care about the wearer's intentions for purposes of this discussion. I care about the message it sends and whether the wearer can reasonably be expected to know that.

Judge away. You don't get a moral free pass, however, for harming or harassing a keeping-to-himself MAGA hat wearer.

Look, the keeping-to-himself thing is important. Yeah., if the MAGA hat guy is giving lip to people and acting up in public ... OK, then batter up. You've got your excuse. But absent that? Since 99.99% of even heartily offended (at MAGA hat) people choose to take the high road ... it is right and proper to sanction those that cannot control their public response.

 

[Doug B]

You (and many others) are conflating the wearer's intention with the message it sends to the outside world. I don't care about the wearer's intentions for purposes of this discussion. I care about the message it sends and whether the wearer can reasonably be expected to know that.

The short-skirts-invite-rape analogy is not apt here because ... ?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I mean it's not up to you specifically, but yeah, it is up to us collectively.That's how it works. If you wear a swastika, people are going to assume that you are a Nazi even if you're actually a fan of the ancient Illyrians and their symbol for the sun. And you have a responsibility to know that before you wear your Illyrian sun swastika in public.

A MAGA hat means you support Donald Trump, whose central message has been scapegoating Hispanic immigrants and Muslims. Even if you're just doing it because you like some policy unrelated to his immigration, religious discrimination and general cruelty and recklessness, it still means at a minimum you value that policy over those things.  That's the message it sends to many people. And frankly the wearer's intent doesn't really matter in this discussion. No intent short of violence makes a violent or criminal response acceptable.  The question was just whether my reaction (being amazed about someone willingly subjecting themselves to the distinct possibility that the kitchen staff will do unspeakable things to their food) was reasonable. It is.

But hey, if you all don't believe me feel free to wear a MAGA hat to a Muslim or Hispanic establishment or community, to an LGBT establishment or community, in a coastal city, etc. Of course the fact that people rarely do this because they know what message it sends to those people is pretty solid proof that I'm right here.

I think your arrogance is preventing you from looking at things correctly.   People rarely  wear MAGA gear in those environments because MAGA supporters rarely are in those environments.  You act like that there are several MAGA guys hanging out in those establishments and then going home and putting all their gear on.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Judge away. You don't get a moral free pass, however, for harming or harassing a keeping-to-himself MAGA hat wearer.

Look, the keeping-to-himself thing is important. Yeah., if the MAGA hat guy is giving lip to people and acting up in public ... OK, then batter up. You've got your excuse. But absent that? Since 99.99% of even heartily offended (at MAGA hat) people choose to take the high road ... it is right and proper to sanction those that cannot control their public response.

See my edited addition to the last post. Here it is again:

"And I've said several times that taking violent or criminal action against someone for wearing a MAGA hat or any other loathsome attire is not OK. I'm not sure how my reaction of amazement that someone would potentially subject themselves to X by weating a MAGA hat has turned into me supporting responding to a MAGA hat with X. I don't think that and I think I've been careful not to say it."

I get the feeling that people came here looking for a specific argument, and they've chosen to ignore what I actually said in order to have it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The short-skirts-invite-rape analogy is not apt here because ... ?

Huh?  You think a short skirt tells people "my body is yours for the taking" in a manner similar to how a MAGA hat tells people "I support Donald Trump's cruel policies and rhetoric regarding Hispanic immigrants"?

I'd rethink this one if I were you, GB. If you delete it, let me know and I'll do the same.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

See my edited addition to the last post. Here it is again:

"And I've said several times that taking violent or criminal action against someone for wearing a MAGA hat or any other loathsome attire is not OK. I'm not sure how my reaction of amazement that someone would potentially subject themselves to X by weating a MAGA hat has turned into me supporting responding to a MAGA hat with X. I don't think that and I think I've been careful not to say it."

I get the feeling that people came here looking for a specific argument, and they've chosen to ignore what I actually said in order to have it.

I believe, if I read the schedule correctly, it is your day to be responsible for the straw man arguments of others.  They construct them, you own them, its your duty until tomorrow when, unfortunately, it becomes my turn.  Coward that I am I may not show my face all day tomorrow.

 

[sho nuff]

I was in Nashville in the rooftop bar of Acme Feed and Seed by Nisson stadium on Saturday afternoon..2 big black dudes that looked like football players were drinking and had MAGA hats on. Nobody said a dam word to them.

Love that rooftop.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Huh?  You think a short skirt tells people "my body is yours for the taking" in a manner similar to how a MAGA hat tells people "I support Donald Trump's cruel policies and rhetoric regarding Hispanic immigrants"?

I'd rethink this one if I were you, GB. If you delete it, let me know and I'll do the same.

I agree with Doug. Short skirts don’t necessarily mean whatever onlookers bizarrely think they do, just like MAGA hats don’t necessarily mean all the stuff you’re reading into them.

 

[Da Guru]

Love that rooftop.

I hit pretty much all of them Friday and Saturday.   Every rooftop was jammed!

 

[Doug B]

Huh?  You think a short skirt tells people "my body is yours for the taking" in a manner similar to how a MAGA hat tells people "I support Donald Trump's cruel policies and rhetoric regarding Hispanic immigrants"?

I'd rethink this one if I were you, GB. If you delete it, let me know and I'll do the same.

The parts in red are both incorrect, IMHO. You assert that a MAGA hat means that, unequivocally. While I grant than some people agree with you about the MAGA hat's meaning, taking the hat to have that meaning does not rise to the level of excusing some kind of assault against the wearer. Similar, the short skirt does not excuse an assault against the wearer, regardless of what meaning the attacker gives the skirt.

 

[Doug B]

"And I've said several times that taking violent or criminal action against someone for wearing a MAGA hat or any other loathsome attire is not OK. I'm not sure how my reaction of amazement that someone would potentially subject themselves to X by weating a MAGA hat has turned into me supporting responding to a MAGA hat with X. I don't think that and I think I've been careful not to say it."

I get the feeling that people came here looking for a specific argument, and they've chosen to ignore what I actually said in order to have it.

From what I know of you through this board ... I have all confidence that you yourself are NOT the kind of person who would spit in MAGA-hat's** food, knock his hat off, get in his face, or anything like that. Accordingly, I accept the distinction your making between "understanding an action" and "condoning an action". I, myself, have used the "explaining, not advocating" device many times in this forum. 

** Quiet, keeping-to-himself MAGA hat guy, to be totally clear.

 

[jonessed]

It can be. Again it depends on the circumstances. 

It seems like people on both sides of this debate are trying to make things too simple. This is a complicated subject.

Not really.  Don’t physically assault people because you don’t like their hat.

 

[Doug B]

I agree with Doug. Short skirts don’t necessarily mean whatever onlookers bizarrely think they do, just like MAGA hats don’t necessarily mean all the stuff you’re reading into them.

That's specifically where I think Tobias' argument is breaking down -- if I'm following him correctly, the wearer's intentions matter regarding the short skirt, but the wearer's intention doesn't matter regarding the MAGA hat.

 

[timschochet]

Not really.  Don’t physically assault people because you don’t like their hat.

Well that part is easy, sure. I didn’t realize that was the question. I thought the question was “is wearing a MAGA hat offensive or provocative?” Thats a complicated question, and the answer is it depends. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I'd rethink this one if I were you, GB. If you delete it, let me know and I'll do the same.

You might want a couple pages of this thread wiped out

 

[jonessed]

Well that part is easy, sure. I didn’t realize that was the question. I thought the question was “is wearing a MAGA hat offensive or provocative?” Thats a complicated question, and the answer is it depends. 

People find all kinds of things offensive and provocative.  Thats fine.  As long as they don’t assault someone I don’t really care.

 

[Doug B]

Well that part is easy, sure. I didn’t realize that was the question. I thought the question was “is wearing a MAGA hat offensive or provocative?” Thats a complicated question, and the answer is it depends. 

Corollary to the part in green:

"Let us agree that the MAGA hat is offensive -- and even provocative -- in a given setting. What kind of personal response to the hat wearer** is excusable?"

** keeping to himself!

 

[sho nuff]

Its not just that its a Trump or campaign shirt.

The specific message is implying he and his policies can make america great.  So yes...when you wear such a thing publicly supporting that slogan you are supporting what Trump is and does.

That does not excuse violence or spitting or whatever on food...

 

[TobiasFunke]

From what I know of you through this board ... I have all confidence that you yourself are NOT the kind of person who would spit in MAGA-hat's** food, knock his hat off, get in his face, or anything like that. Accordingly, I accept the distinction your making between "understanding an action" and "condoning an action". I, myself, have used the "explaining, not advocating" device many times in this forum.  

** Quiet, keeping-to-himself MAGA hat guy, to be totally clear.

That's correct. My go-to reaction is a Paddington "hard stare."

 

[TobiasFunke]

I agree with Doug. Short skirts don’t necessarily mean whatever onlookers bizarrely think they do, just like MAGA hats don’t necessarily mean all the stuff you’re reading into them. 

Sorry, I don't get this comparison at all.  In fact I find it kind of icky, for reasons I haven't quite figured out how to articulate. But regardless, a short skirt presumably doesn't have an explicit message printed on it- and if it did, we'd be having a different conversation. Even if you completely ignore the context, which we shouldn't, it's fairly obvious that a piece of clothing with actual words on it (or in this case an abbreviation) is being worn with the intent to send a far more specific message than a piece of clothing that has no words.