Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (3 Viewers)

[The Kerminator]

Shot of the key as it was found:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2dkzwab.png

That explains why it was missed the first few times the room was searched and colburn aggressively shook the book case.

Book case was planted too.

No way Steve Avery reads.

It was filled with Archie comic books

 

[The Kerminator]

Here's another point I have trouble resolving and maybe somebody that takes that point of view can help me out. Many people here have stated that Avery wouldn't be so stupid as to just hide Halbach's SUV when he could have crushed it. (A point I happen to disagree with as it assumes a) he was smart enough and b) that he was thinking rationally or that any of us know how anybody would act in that situation) But I'll play along and say OK he would have been smarter than that. Than wouldn't it also follow that the cops would have been smarter when planting the key in his room after several searches? Or are we assuming that Avery was smart and the cops were dumb?

The same guy you think is too dumb and thus hides the car on the lot is the same dude smart enough to wipe out every trace of blood from the trailer and garage areas where she was stabbed/shot?

Okay.

P.S. He seemed pretty handy though...so I think it is possible he buffed out, sanded, spackled and re-finished the bed from all those shackles/handcuffs and chains that were used to hold her down.

Is it possible that he planned on crushing the car later?

 

[Papa Georgio]

Shot of the key as it was found:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2dkzwab.png

So not really "under" the slipper per se.

It would be interesting to know if the edge of the slipper was on top of the key (hard to tell from the photo), or the key is laying just adjacent to the slipper.

Shot of the key as it was found:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2dkzwab.png

So not really "under" the slipper per se.

It would be interesting to know if the edge of the slipper was on top of the key (hard to tell from the photo), or the key is laying just adjacent to the slipper.

Funny but as I recall he twisted and moved the book case. I guess they decided to put the book case back in place perfectly before taking that pick.

 

[Michael Brown]

This isn't meant to be an insult to the Wisconsin guys, but the locals among you seem to be taking the viewpoint that you have insider info by virtue of living there and the rest of us are outside looking in. But it's 2015. There's news everywhere. We know more about what's happening in North Korea than North Koreans do. Developing your opinion because of the media's presentations a decade ago are just as hollow as people basing their entire opinions on the Netflix series. Are there some things that got left out of the documentary? Yes. But are there really important things that the documentary uncovered that weren't known beforehand? Absolutely. It reminds me of people who say a pitcher was really great or an umpire blew a call, and they know it because "I was there". When in reality, being there gives you a much worse vantage point than people watching on TV who have the benefit of close-ups, replays, etc.

I'm about 70/30 that he didn't do it, but I wouldn't be at all shocked if he DID do it. The thing is, even though the series is biased (perhaps hugely biased), there are a number of really shady individual things that happened. And any number of them should have resulted in a new trial. Unless the producers overstated the decision regarding the search, once the Manitowac County cops said they weren't going to be involved but then showed up on the crime scene, it should make the entire search invalid. Case dismissed right from that point IMO.

 

[Das Boot]

Looks like there is a Reddit subreddit for the documentary and related discussion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/

 

[Michael Brown]

We're 11 pages and 500+ posts in and I just realized the thread gets the show title wrong.

Yeah, he murdered it.

Oh come on. We're to believe that the OP was smart enough to figure out how to get on the Internet, sign up for the Footballguys forums, and create an entire thread, but he wasn't smart enough to know how to edit his own titles? That's a pretty huge stretch.

 

[cockroach]

Here's another point I have trouble resolving and maybe somebody that takes that point of view can help me out. Many people here have stated that Avery wouldn't be so stupid as to just hide Halbach's SUV when he could have crushed it. (A point I happen to disagree with as it assumes a) he was smart enough and b) that he was thinking rationally or that any of us know how anybody would act in that situation) But I'll play along and say OK he would have been smarter than that. Than wouldn't it also follow that the cops would have been smarter when planting the key in his room after several searches? Or are we assuming that Avery was smart and the cops were dumb?

I'll play devil's advocate on this one.

If Avery killed her as the prosecution suggests he did a MASTERFUL job of cleaning up the crime scene of blood. Like, beyond meticulous. So if someone is that detailed oriented in removing strands of hair and drops of blood, tiny tiny pieces of evidence on the scene, it stands to reason that they would do a better job of destroying the more macroscopic pieces of evidence... especially when they have the tool on hand that will do just that. So... that's kind of a stretch.

On the other hand. There seems to have been several instances of police clumsily or suspiciously handling evidence. The car that was called in before it was found on the property... and the search of the 40 acre property that only took a half hr to find exactly what they were looking for. How convenient! Mantowac finding all the key pieces. Colburn and Lenk's involvement in covering up evidence that would've exonerated Steven in his first case years before he eventually was. Manipulating rtards to try to bolster their case.

So that's kind of how it doesn't add up from my perspective.

 

[Dickies]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

What information do you have that wasn't shown? Most people in this thread are very interested in learning more facts from the prosecution side to provide balance against what the documentary showed.

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either.

The defense provided compelling proof that the key was planted. Police from an adjacent county adamantly testified that that key wasn't there during all previous searches until it was found by Manitowoc police. The nightstand that the key fell from had previously been fully searched. The key was found underneath a slipper, which would presumably be an unlikely occurrence if it had freely fallen from the nightstand.

Then there's the blood vial that had been tampered with / compromised, which was also proven by the defense.

They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

I see you have since responded and read my later post.

I don't know. Maybe the key was in the slipper and it was kicked during the search of the bookcase/dresser. I don't know. Planted is a possibility. The prosecution also had a witness testify that the blood samples did not come from a vial. Depends on what you choose to believe.

But I'm choosing not to base my opinion on this series alone, especially when it has been shown that key pieces of evidence have been left out. Give me 400 hours of film on any subject and I can almost guarantee I can edit it down to 10 hours to make any viewpoint seem valid.

I and others have already mentioned that the prosecution's witness was using flawed science. He cannot state that the blood did not come from the vial. The test that was performed simply could not confirm that it did.

You mention how biased this show is at every opportunity, but you were the one who initially refused to even watch it because you already knew everything there was to know from the local media (which by all accounts was extremely biased the other way).

As for the evidence you cite being left out, I pretty much dismiss the bullet. They had thoroughly searched the garage and found a number of casings, but never did find a bullet or any DNA evidence. The garage was straight out of hoarders, so if someone was shot in the head, blood is getting on everything. Then they get a coerced confession from Dassey, go back to the garage months later and find a single bullet with Halbach's blood on it? I don't care if it came from Avery's gun since I see no feasible way that the bullet ends up where it did with no other DNA found. If he meticulously cleaned up, why drop the bloody bullet on the ground after cleaning?

The DNA on the underside of the hood is more troubling to me, but I am no forensics expert. It is curious to me how long after they seized the car before deciding they were going to test that area of the car. I have no real answer to this, but in my opinion it does not make him 100% guilty.

I am not 100% positive that he is innocent, but there is more than enough doubt in my mind that I would vote not guilty. I am of the mindset that I would rather have 95 guilty people roaming free than 5 innocent people in jail for life.

 

[RUSF18]

This isn't meant to be an insult to the Wisconsin guys, but the locals among you seem to be taking the viewpoint that you have insider info by virtue of living there and the rest of us are outside looking in. But it's 2015. There's news everywhere. We know more about what's happening in North Korea than North Koreans do. Developing your opinion because of the media's presentations a decade ago are just as hollow as people basing their entire opinions on the Netflix series. Are there some things that got left out of the documentary? Yes. But are there really important things that the documentary uncovered that weren't known beforehand? Absolutely. It reminds me of people who say a pitcher was really great or an umpire blew a call, and they know it because "I was there". When in reality, being there gives you a much worse vantage point than people watching on TV who have the benefit of close-ups, replays, etc.

I'm about 70/30 that he didn't do it, but I wouldn't be at all shocked if he DID do it. The thing is, even though the series is biased (perhaps hugely biased), there are a number of really shady individual things that happened. And any number of them should have resulted in a new trial. Unless the producers overstated the decision regarding the search, once the Manitowac County cops said they weren't going to be involved but then showed up on the crime scene, it should make the entire search invalid. Case dismissed right from that point IMO.

I'm with you 100% on this right down to your breakdown of likely guilt. To me, the missing evidence of sweat on a hood latch is much easier to dismiss than the mental gymnastics needed to find a way for burnt pieces of bone to end up on his property.

And despite Prawn's selective reading, there are many people in this thread who might be leaning one way or another but have open minds. And maybe Prawn should go back and read his first couple of posts in this thread and figure out who is most likely to be biased.

 

[cockroach]

This isn't meant to be an insult to the Wisconsin guys, but the locals among you seem to be taking the viewpoint that you have insider info by virtue of living there and the rest of us are outside looking in. But it's 2015. There's news everywhere. We know more about what's happening in North Korea than North Koreans do. Developing your opinion because of the media's presentations a decade ago are just as hollow as people basing their entire opinions on the Netflix series. Are there some things that got left out of the documentary? Yes. But are there really important things that the documentary uncovered that weren't known beforehand? Absolutely. It reminds me of people who say a pitcher was really great or an umpire blew a call, and they know it because "I was there". When in reality, being there gives you a much worse vantage point than people watching on TV who have the benefit of close-ups, replays, etc.

I'm about 70/30 that he didn't do it, but I wouldn't be at all shocked if he DID do it. The thing is, even though the series is biased (perhaps hugely biased), there are a number of really shady individual things that happened. And any number of them should have resulted in a new trial. Unless the producers overstated the decision regarding the search, once the Manitowac County cops said they weren't going to be involved but then showed up on the crime scene, it should make the entire search invalid. Case dismissed right from that point IMO.

Well said. I stated very early on that the people that are closest to this case and have known it about it the longest will have the most difficult time being unbiased. Funny that that is the FIRST thing they came out firing with against the documentary (even going as far as calling it a "TV Show" rather than a doc). As if the 10 o'clock news is somehow unbiased.

 

[Das Boot]

When I was jury foreman last year, they majority wanted to convict because the guy was a loser. I said wait a minute...we went over the actual facts, and they all voted to not guilty. Wasn't that hard.

One guy with an American Flag leather jacket on said "They're all bar trash" when we went around the table to get opinions. I volunteered to be foreman. Had I not, this guy would be sitting in prison. I felt I did the right thing instead of "just trying to get out of there."

Thanks for your actions, honestly.

You quite likely prevented a micro-repeat of what happened to Steve Avery when he was wrongly convicted (the first time, of rape).

 

[SIDA!]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

What information do you have that wasn't shown? Most people in this thread are very interested in learning more facts from the prosecution side to provide balance against what the documentary showed.

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either.

The defense provided compelling proof that the key was planted. Police from an adjacent county adamantly testified that that key wasn't there during all previous searches until it was found by Manitowoc police. The nightstand that the key fell from had previously been fully searched. The key was found underneath a slipper, which would presumably be an unlikely occurrence if it had freely fallen from the nightstand.

Then there's the blood vial that had been tampered with / compromised, which was also proven by the defense.

They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

I see you have since responded and read my later post.

I don't know. Maybe the key was in the slipper and it was kicked during the search of the bookcase/dresser. I don't know. Planted is a possibility. The prosecution also had a witness testify that the blood samples did not come from a vial. Depends on what you choose to believe.

But I'm choosing not to base my opinion on this series alone, especially when it has been shown that key pieces of evidence have been left out. Give me 400 hours of film on any subject and I can almost guarantee I can edit it down to 10 hours to make any viewpoint seem valid.

As for the evidence you cite being left out, I pretty much dismiss the bullet. They had thoroughly searched the garage and found a number of casings, but never did find a bullet or any DNA evidence. The garage was straight out of hoarders, so if someone was shot in the head, blood is getting on everything.

Not only had they thoroughly searched the area...Avery the mastermind did such a wonderful job cleaning up the blood spatter that he was able to weave in and out of the bullet shells and the bullet fragment.

Instead of picking them up and throwing them away, Einstein thought they were like an obstacle course to maneuver his mop around...

 

[Das Boot]

http://www.businessinsider.com/making-a-murderer-fan-theories-2015-12

Here's a look at some of the reasons why "Making a Murderer" obsessives believe the men to be wrongfully convicted:

Lack of motive: Why would Avery, a man who was recovering his life after being wrongfully imprisoned for 18 years, do anything to return to prison? Why would he target Halbach, who was there to snap photos of a car to be sold? And why would Avery, on the cusp of winning a huge payment from the county in his civil suit, endanger his winnings?

Alibis: Both Avery and Dassey were witnessed by family members during the span in which Halbach was allegedly attacked, killed, and her body destroyed. Avery also had a receipt from Burger King and eyewitnesses who could place him there during the same timeframe. Avery spoke with his fiancé, who was in jail for a DUI arrest, twice that day for at least 15 minutes and she said he showed no signs of nervousness or desire to hurry off the phone.

Dassey's "confession": It appears clear that police steered Dassey, who's learning disabled, toward describing what happened during the alleged crime. At first, he said he went over to Avery's for a bonfire that evening. They pressed him for more of the story and even suggested specifics, which resulted in Dassey revealing conflicting details in a confession. Dassey's mother wasn't notified that her son was being interrogated and wasn't present during the interrogations. Also, his lawyer, Len Kachinsky, allowed the teen to be interrogated without being present, which would later lead to the judge removing him from representing Dassey.

Halbach's keys: Manitowoc County wasn't supposed to take part in searches of the Avery property. Yet it was Lt. James Lenk who eventually found Halbach's car keys in Avery's room in plain view, despite being missed in previous searches. Avery's DNA would be found on Halbach's keys, but no one else's — not even the victim's. That led to speculation from the defense that the keys were scrubbed and Avery's DNA was planted on them.

Halbach's car: Sgt. Andrew Colborn called into police dispatch to run the Halbach car's plates. When he was told the car had been reported missing, he said, "'99 Toyota?" During the trial, he was unable to explain how he knew that detail — one reason some have speculated that he drove the car to the Avery property.

Blood evidence in Halbach's car: Police found Avery's blood in different areas of the car. His attorneys would later discover that a vial of Avery's blood had been tampered with. That lends itself to the theory that blood could've been planted in the victim's car.

Investigators also found Halbach's blood next to Avery's. That didn't fit with the prosecution's own timeline of events, since Avery allegedly killed Halbach in the garage then burned the body in the fire pit. At no point would he have had to transport the bloody victim in the car.

The lack of blood evidence in Avery's bedroom: According to the prosecution's theory, Halbach had her throat slit by Dassey while being raped and tied to the bed. But no blood was found on the mattress or the floor, or anywhere in the room.

Location of the bone fragments: There were bones found in the fire pit, but also a small amount in a quarry a distance away. The defense argued that if Avery and Dassey were trying to hide the bones, why would they leave a large amount of them in the fire pit close to Avery's trailer? Wouldn't that be where the smaller amount of bone fragments would be found with the bulk of the bones in the quarry where they tried to hide them?

Other suspects: The defense did not elaborate about other potential suspects in the trial, but online sleuths have pointed to Halbach's male roommate, who didn't report her missing for three days, and her ex-boyfriend. According to phone records, messages were erased on Halbach's phone after her disappearance. The boyfriend admitted he knew her mobile-phone password. In fact, her brother also said he knew the password. They weren't asked for alibis.

 

[Dickies]

The other thing that really disturbs me about this case is that they did not investigate or question any other potential suspects. That struck me as extremely odd. If Avery is ever found not guilty then they really have no evidence to fall back on as far as secondary suspects go.

 

[Northern Voice]

Was that Burger King receipt mentioned in the doc? Damn filmmakers leaving our crucial evidence against supporting Avery again.

 

[cockroach]

The other thing that really disturbs me about this case is that they did not investigate or question any other potential suspects. That struck me as extremely odd. If Avery is ever found not guilty then they really have no evidence to fall back on as far as secondary suspects go.

That's what happens when you invent-stigate instead of investigate

 

[The Kerminator]

Not that it would make any difference to any of you but a good listen

http://www.tmj4.com/shows/local-prosecutor-author-on-making-a-murderer

Did you know that Steven Avery pulled over (or more accurately rammed her with his pickup truck) and held at gunpoint with the intent to sexually assault a woman, a charge to which he plead guilty and was sentenced 6 years which was included in his 18 years he served. Was this included in the series?

Did you know Halbach's phone, camera and PDA were found not 20 feet from Avery's door burnt in a barrel? Was this included in the series?

 

[Dickies]

Not that it would make any difference to any of you but a good listen

http://www.tmj4.com/shows/local-prosecutor-author-on-making-a-murderer

Did you know that Steven Avery pulled over (or more accurately rammed her with his pickup truck) and held at gunpoint with the intent to sexually assault a woman, a charge to which he plead guilty and was sentenced 6 years which was included in his 18 years he served. Was this included in the series?

Did you know Halbach's phone, camera and PDA were found not 20 feet from Avery's door burnt in a barrel? Was this included in the series?

I thought you caved and decided to watch it? The first one was covered. I do not recall any mention of the phone, camera, PDA,, but if there were bones in the barrel these items seem meaningless.

 

[SIDA!]

King...I thought you said you actuality watched the documentary later in this thread after at first stating you weren't planning to watch it?

 

[Northern Voice]

Not that it would make any difference to any of you but a good listen

http://www.tmj4.com/shows/local-prosecutor-author-on-making-a-murderer

Did you know that Steven Avery pulled over (or more accurately rammed her with his pickup truck) and held at gunpoint with the intent to sexually assault a woman, a charge to which he plead guilty and was sentenced 6 years which was included in his 18 years he served. Was this included in the series?

Isn't this episode 1?

 

[Northern Voice]

I'm guessing by the fact he keeps referring to "Ratings", King Prawn doesn't actually have Netflix.

 

[Dickies]

I'm guessing by the fact he keeps referring to "Ratings", King Prawn doesn't actually have Netflix.

They worked on this for 10 years so that they can make a quick buck.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

On the DNA on the bullet and the lack of detected EDTA in the blood from the van.

 

[joffer]

Did the series mention where the car was found? Huh????

 

[Dickies]

On the DNA on the bullet and the lack of detected EDTA in the blood from the van.

I don't need to read this. The prosecution had an expert witness from the FBI that proved there was no EDTA in the blood.

/KingPrawn

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Good interview with the victim of the rape that Avery was wrongfully accused of.

 

[cockroach]

Good interview with the victim of the rape that Avery was wrongfully accused of.

"One of the things that really troubled me is that I was one of the only people who apologized to Steve. It would have been nice if the prosecutor and sheriff had said, “Actually, we all got it wrong.” I felt like I was the only one taking any responsibility."

Very troubling and comes across when that head sheriff guy is on the stand and won't admit that Avery didn't commit the first crime.

That and the covering up of evidence that would have exonerated him after the fact really lays the groundwork for a mindset that is very capable of the planting of evidence.

 

[cockroach]

Not that it would make any difference to any of you but a good listen

http://www.tmj4.com/shows/local-prosecutor-author-on-making-a-murderer

Did you know that Steven Avery pulled over (or more accurately rammed her with his pickup truck) and held at gunpoint with the intent to sexually assault a woman, a charge to which he plead guilty and was sentenced 6 years which was included in his 18 years he served. Was this included in the series?

Did you know Halbach's phone, camera and PDA were found not 20 feet from Avery's door burnt in a barrel? Was this included in the series?

You just put your foot in your mouth big time here buddy. Did you watch it or not?

 

[bucksoh]

What was the point of the odd videos they showed with Halbach? I think they showed two of them?

In the trial itself? To personalize her to the jury. Makes her a person and not just a name.

No, it didnt seem like it was part of the trial.

So is this normal for people to make a video like she did and keep it? To me she might have been in a abusive relationship, possible suicide and/or cancer. Why else would she say that she is happy now and if she died in 3 years she wanted everyone to know that she was happy. It was something like that she said, but to me this was very confusing why they showed that video, was this explained later in the trial as a motive for the boyfriend killing her? Only on episode 6.

 

[TheMagus]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but is there any evidence that the bones found offsite actually belonged to Teresa? I thought I either heard or read somewhere that there were bones down at the quarry but they could have been from animals. I see so much info on this it's hard to keep everything straight.

 

[SIDA!]

Good interview with the victim of the rape that Avery was wrongfully accused of.

Man...I feel terrible for her. What an ordeal. She was victimized several times by that process.

Do you think she had (maybe still does) grounds to sue the county civilly for how this whole thing went down? She suffered emotional distress and what not.

 

[SIDA!]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but is there any evidence that the bones found offsite actually belonged to Teresa? I thought I either heard or read somewhere that there were bones down at the quarry but they could have been from animals. I see so much info on this it's hard to keep everything straight.

I am a little shaky on the bone evidence myself. Would appreciate someone with a good handle on this to chime in as well.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Pretty good interview by Megyn Kelly of Ken Kratz and Dean Strang.

 

[Dickies]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but is there any evidence that the bones found offsite actually belonged to Teresa? I thought I either heard or read somewhere that there were bones down at the quarry but they could have been from animals. I see so much info on this it's hard to keep everything straight.

I am a little shaky on the bone evidence myself. Would appreciate someone with a good handle on this to chime in as well.

Not 100% sure, but I seem to recall them saying that any DNA evidence was destroyed in the burning process, but that they appeared to be human remains. Safe to assume they were Teresa's.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Good interview with the victim of the rape that Avery was wrongfully accused of.

Man...I feel terrible for her. What an ordeal. She was victimized several times by that process.

Do you think she had (maybe still does) grounds to sue the county civilly for how this whole thing went down? She suffered emotional distress and what not.

No. The legally cognizable damage done by the county was to Steven Avery. The damage done to Penny Beernstein was by Gregory Allen.

 

[bucksoh]

How come so many of these people have IQs in the low 70s?

Thats considered high in WI.

LOL

 

[Binky The Doormat]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but is there any evidence that the bones found offsite actually belonged to Teresa? I thought I either heard or read somewhere that there were bones down at the quarry but they could have been from animals. I see so much info on this it's hard to keep everything straight.

I am a little shaky on the bone evidence myself. Would appreciate someone with a good handle on this to chime in as well.

Not 100% sure, but I seem to recall them saying that any DNA evidence was destroyed in the burning process, but that they appeared to be human remains. Safe to assume they were Teresa's.

Can we follow up more on this?

 

[SIDA!]

Good interview with the victim of the rape that Avery was wrongfully accused of.

Man...I feel terrible for her. What an ordeal. She was victimized several times by that process.

Do you think she had (maybe still does) grounds to sue the county civilly for how this whole thing went down? She suffered emotional distress and what not.

No. The legally cognizable damage done by the county was to Steven Avery. The damage done to Penny Beernstein was by Gregory Allen.

I am out of my element here so please be kind.

Are you stating something you know to be a fact...or do you believe there is room for a counter argument so to speak. You say that the damage done to Penny was done by Gregory. Which is obviously true.

But, there isn't a legal argument to be made that the county damaged Penny during this ordeal. First and foremost, the county has a duty to bring justice to victims. Obviously, they can't guarantee justice. But...if you have a duty to bring justice and you allege that the county intentionally engaged in acts that deprived the victim justice...have they not been damaged?

Putting all that aside, it is clear in the interview that she was damaged by putting an innocent man in jail. She effectively (it would be alleged) coached by the county to prosecute and convict an innocent man. And 18 years later she has to deal with the trauma of knowing that she testified and put a man behind bars.

I am sure you would agree that she was damaged and I am pretty positive that you are essentially saying that from a legal standpoint the damage she sustained from the county's negligence or malfeasance is just simply not something that can be awarded compensation for.

Second part...surely...the victims of the other Gregory Allen cases could have sued, right?

 

[SIDA!]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but is there any evidence that the bones found offsite actually belonged to Teresa? I thought I either heard or read somewhere that there were bones down at the quarry but they could have been from animals. I see so much info on this it's hard to keep everything straight.

I am a little shaky on the bone evidence myself. Would appreciate someone with a good handle on this to chime in as well.

Not 100% sure, but I seem to recall them saying that any DNA evidence was destroyed in the burning process, but that they appeared to be human remains. Safe to assume they were Teresa's.

Can we follow up more on this?

Trying to find more info myself to advance the discussion. Over at the "Ryan Hillegas" blog mentioned at the to of Page 14 in this thread...there is an article called the "empire strikes back" featuring an email sent to the blogger at that site by Kratz. Kratz basically lists items that were excluded by the producers of the show.

He writes to the blogger:

5. The victim's bones in the firepit were "intertwined" with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn, as described by Dassey. That WAS where her bones were burned! Suggesting that some human bones found elsewhere (never identified as Teresa's) were from this murder was NEVER established.

If I am reading this right (and it is late so maybe I am not), is Kratz basically saying the following:

There were bone fragments at other sites on the property but we never tested them to see if they were Teresa's and we never investigated them further to see if they belonged to another human being that may have been murdered?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Are you stating something you know to be a fact...or do you believe there is room for a counter argument so to speak. You say that the damage done to Penny was done by Gregory. Which is obviously true.

I'm pretty confident that Beerntsen doesn't have a valid claim against the county for damages.

But, there isn't a legal argument to be made that the county damaged Penny during this ordeal. First and foremost, the county has a duty to bring justice to victims.

I don't think that's true. I don't think the county owes any special duty to victims. I think the county's duty to effect justice is owed to the general citizenry rather than to victims in particular ... but it's not the sort of duty that, when breached, gives rise to a claim for damages.

Putting all that aside, it is clear in the interview that she was damaged by putting an innocent man in jail. She effectively (it would be alleged) coached by the county to prosecute and convict an innocent man. And 18 years later she has to deal with the trauma of knowing that she testified and put a man behind bars.

I'm sure it's rough for her, but she's responsible for her own actions. She picked Avery out of a lineup. She testified that Avery raped her. That's something she has to deal with. It's not something she gets to sue somebody else for.

Second part...surely...the victims of the other Gregory Allen cases could have sued, right?

They surely could have sued Gregory Allen, not the county. Failing to convict someone who goes on to commit future crimes is not the kind of thing that governments are held liable for.

 

[SIDA!]

MT:

I am not making the argument that the county failed to convict someone and thus they are liable. I am making the argument that their negligence/corruption resulted in them not convicting the right person and thus led to harm.

On the last point...if Avery can sue the county because he was harmed or damaged by sitting in prison for x number of years...why can't the victims of Gregory Allen also sue the county. The very action that harmed Avery effectively harmed them?

Going further...assume for a second that the state investigation task force had actually ruled that there was criminal negligence or corruption that resulted in Avery being wrongfully convicted. Under that scenario would the Allen victims have grounds to claim damages directly resulting from the criminal wrongdoing of the department?

 

[bucksoh]

I think she committed suicide, or her ex boyfriend killed her. The police found her body. Which explains the cop calling in the license plate. Explains why all the evidence found on SA property was planted, and also explains Halbachs(sp?) video. No one else thinks this.?

 

[SIDA!]

I think she committed suicide, or her ex boyfriend killed her. The police found her body. Which explains the cop calling in the license plate. Explains why all the evidence found on SA property was planted, and also explains Halbachs(sp?) video. No one else thinks this.?

This is the first time I have heard the suicide theory. Want to unpack that a bit?

I don't think you theory explains the video. I personally think it contradicts it based on what I remember her saying on there. I don't recall her sounding like someone looking to leave the Earth anytime soon.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

On the last point...if Avery can sue the county because he was harmed or damaged by sitting in prison for x number of years...why can't the victims of Gregory Allen also sue the county. The very action that harmed Avery effectively harmed them?

Steven Avery was directly harmed by the cops who planted evidence against him, so he can sue them.

Gregory Allen's victims were directly harmed by Gregory Allen, so they can sue him.

Gregory Allen's victims were not directly harmed by the cops who planted evidence against Steven Avery. The chain of causation on that claim is tortuously long. First, the cops who planted evidence against Steven Avery did not rape Gregory Allen's victims. Gregory Allen did that, and in general, one person is not liable for another person's intentional torts. Putting that aside, the idea that if Kocourek hadn't planted evidence against Avery, Allen wouldn't have raped anybody thereafter is pretty dicey. For one thing, maybe Allen didn't rape Beernsten after all. Maybe it was someone else entirely that was never considered. Allen is presumed innocent until proven guilty just like anybody else, and he hasn't been proven guilty of raping Beernsten. Even if Allen really did do it, though, that doesn't mean that the state would have obtained a conviction against him even if it had done everything right. Maybe the strongest evidence would have been ruled inadmissible by a judge, leaving him free to keep raping. Maybe, even if the strongest evidence were admitted, the jury wouldn't have understood it and would have failed to convict, leaving him free to keep raping. Maybe the jury would have convicted, but the conviction would have been overturned on appeal, leaving him free to keep raping. Maybe the conviction would have been upheld on appeal, but Allen would have escaped from prison and raped a bunch of people anyway despite the state's best efforts to stop him.

There are a million things that might have prevented Allen's victims from having been victimized. There are a million people who might have done something differently somewhere along the line that would have prevented Allen from ever becoming a rapist. Maybe his parents should have told him they loved him more often. Maybe his teachers should have been more strict with him, or less strict. Maybe the cops shouldn't have planted evidence against Avery. Yadda, yadda. But the only one who is ultimately responsible for Allen's crimes, in any legal way, is Allen himself.

Going further...assume for a second that the state investigation task force had actually ruled that there was criminal negligence or corruption that resulted in Avery being wrongfully convicted. Under that scenario would the Allen victims have grounds to claim damages directly resulting from the criminal wrongdoing of the department?

No.

The only person who can sue anybody for Avery's wrongful conviction is Avery. (And maybe Avery's family members under some kind of novel theory involving loss of consortium.)

 

[SIDA!]

Thanks for bringing it, MT. I appreciate you taking the time to put those responses together.

 

[bucksoh]

I think she committed suicide, or her ex boyfriend killed her. The police found her body. Which explains the cop calling in the license plate. Explains why all the evidence found on SA property was planted, and also explains Halbachs(sp?) video. No one else thinks this.?

This is the first time I have heard the suicide theory. Want to unpack that a bit?I don't think you theory explains the video. I personally think it contradicts it based on what I remember her saying on there. I don't recall her sounding like someone looking to leave the Earth anytime soon.

In episode 2 she starts talking in the video about dieing at 31, making a video about dieing isn't normal. It says in the video, 3 years earlier, which again is questionable in my book. It looks like she is trying to convince herself. For all I know she could have been in a abusive relationship and wanted a way out. Which would make sense if she committed suicide. The cop finds the car abandoned then calls in the license plates knowing his mistake the cop tried to cover up that call. This means the cops have two days to burn her body and come up with a senerio to frame SA. It could be the ex, too does he have any connection to the sheriff department? That would explain a lot too for motive. They have a 30 million dollar motive. Just a couple senerios which make the most sense.

 

[cockroach]

On the last point...if Avery can sue the county because he was harmed or damaged by sitting in prison for x number of years...why can't the victims of Gregory Allen also sue the county. The very action that harmed Avery effectively harmed them?

Steven Avery was directly harmed by the cops who planted evidence against him, so he can sue them.

Gregory Allen's victims were directly harmed by Gregory Allen, so they can sue him.

Gregory Allen's victims were not directly harmed by the cops who planted evidence against Steven Avery. The chain of causation on that claim is tortuously long. First, the cops who planted evidence against Steven Avery did not rape Gregory Allen's victims. Gregory Allen did that, and in general,.... Yadda, yadda.

I think the argument would be that the police roped her into a conspiracy which she now feels so guilty about unwittingly taking place in that she wants "the earth to swallow" her. The evidence would be the "composite drawing" that the dikhead sheriff framed (oh ####, I wonder if that was some sort of pun... didn't get that at first!) that was pretty clearly them fingering their guy and then drawing a picture of his mug shot that they had and calling that a match. Then manipulating her further into IDing him by having him be the only one that was in both the lineup and the photo lineup, logically making him stand out. That manipulation can be argued to be a victimizing of her and the source of her distress and need for therapy.

 

[Sabertooth]

If we are to believe that the car and key were planted, where did they come from? How does Lenk get the key?

Maybe they were left in the car?

My problem is, if I think the police planted the evidence and set SA up, I'm having to assume they killed Theresa. Unless they found the car abandoned with the keys in it, but by then, they had already started the process to frame SA. That's as hard to believe as the stuff against SA.

It seems very likely that Colburn was looking at the car when he called in the plates two days before it was found.

Completely agree. At that point, they've already spent a few days gathering the evidence against SA. The gift of the car and key just land in their lap? Maybe they found the car, and then got the spare key. But now you're having to assume the victim's family is involved. Which maybe they are if they were tipped off on where to find the vehicle in the salvage yard.

Why? I'd assume in a missing person's case (which this originally was), the police would search the residence of the missing person for evidence.

Well, family/friend/roommate. Somebody knew what her keys looked like. And when this discovery was made, you would hope the investigators asked them if they were the ones she used.

Or they found those keys in the vehicle when they called the plates in. Or "they" found the keys on her body.

Lets say the police did find her body after she was killed. It would possibly have the DNA of her killer attached somewhere. How would one destroy that evidence? Burn the body...... Hmm

So you are suggesting the body was found elsewhere by the police and moved to the burning pit and burned by them? Evidence shows that the body was burned in the Avery burn pit and not elsewhere. The bones were intertwined with steel straps from the tires.

Not true at all. The expert said she could not determine where it was burned. They found burned remains in three place....the Avery burn pit, an area called burn pit 2 (behind the Dassey home) and in the quarry pit. I tend to think that's where the burn took place. Way on the other side of the 40 acre plot.

Nobody said the police found anything. Why couldn't it have been Bobby and/or Scott? Don't be a Kratz. I don't think I've heard on person suggest the police killed her or found the body and then burned her.

 

[Sabertooth]

It was posted earlier in the thread an article stating 14 pieces of evidence that were left out of the series. were these included in that article or are they new?

The bullet found in the garage was from the .22 cal gun that hung over Steven Avery's bed until Nov. 5th. Ballistics say it is that gun that fired that bullet. The gun is seized Nov. 6th and is stored in the Calumet County evidence locker in Chilton. This is never mentioned in the documentary. Now the question is, if the bullet is planted with Teresa Halbach's DNA evidence on it, how do the Manitowoc County cops being accused of planting it, have a fired bullet from Avery's gun which had to be fired from it before 11/5? Did they break in to the Calumet County evidence locker? Were Calumet County officers involved?

Second item, After March 1st, after Dassey tells them that they hid the SUV and Steven popped open the hood and unhooked the battery, the Wisconsin crime lab swabs the hood and latch for Avery's DNA. DNA is found but it is not blood. It is from skin cells from Avery's sweat. Now how did that get there? Did the crooked cops also have a vial of Avery's sweat? Did they plant it after it was in possession of the Wisconsin crime lab?

I have to ask myself, now why didn't the so-called documentary include the above 2 pieces of evidence or the 14 pieces stated in the previous article? They sure seem like some key pieces of evidence, wouldn't you agree? Then it makes me wonder, what else are they leaving out?

I sure would like to see ALL the unedited footage they have and base my opinion on that information rather than an all-agreed upon biased 10 hour series. Wonder if they'll ever release all the footage on the internet. It could very easily be done and if they are so sure of their conclusions then why don't they?

Not saying they did this...but it would have been easy. They stated that they found a lot of bullets in and around the property. Snag a bullet. Go to Theresa's house and take some dirty laundry and rub it all over the bullet. Drop the bullet back off. Doesn't seem that hard.

 

[Sabertooth]

Here's another point I have trouble resolving and maybe somebody that takes that point of view can help me out. Many people here have stated that Avery wouldn't be so stupid as to just hide Halbach's SUV when he could have crushed it. (A point I happen to disagree with as it assumes a) he was smart enough and b) that he was thinking rationally or that any of us know how anybody would act in that situation) But I'll play along and say OK he would have been smarter than that. Than wouldn't it also follow that the cops would have been smarter when planting the key in his room after several searches? Or are we assuming that Avery was smart and the cops were dumb?

I don't think the cops were dumb. I think they thought they were above reproach and did whatever they wanted with impunity. Turns out they were right. Nobody ever got held accountable for anything, even the first trial.