Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)

[SIDA!]

KingPrawn:

Earlier in this thread I made the statement that I believe there is ZERO CHANCE that Avery killed Teresa in the trailer or the garage. Do you agree with this statement?

I dont know if he does but I absolutely agree with you. No way it happened the way the prosecutor said it did.

Hell...even the prosecutor didn't believe it happened the way he said it did...or at least I am assuming as much since it appears he got two people convicted for the same murder and yet the murder was said to have happened two different ways.

By hook or by "crook"...

 

[avoiding injuries]

Where you been, Lenk?

 

[The Kerminator]

This may have already been mentioned, but I just finished the season and have not read the entire thread...there are multiple times where Detective Lenk's story was changed during the trial from his original statements made months earlier, so it would better fit with the prosecutor's timeline (e.g. the whole time log around the Rav 4 after discovery). Also, Coburn was still sniffing around evidence 4 months AFTER he was removed from the investigation for conflict of interest reasons.

How this does not scream reasonable doubt to the jury is beyond me, let alone, all of the other pieces of evidence that could be seen as reasonable doubt for Avery's case of innocence.

I have about a 25% gut feeling that he may have been guilty, as she was last saw on his property, but I also think evidence had to have been planted by the police to some degree. They search his trailer multiple times head to toe, and didn't find the key until like the 3rd day or something after already searching everything? Shady...

It was 7-4 in favor of not guilty when the jury first voted. The 4 were very stubborn and persuasive according to the dismissed juror.

This is what I want to know more about. How can the jury go from the majority saying he's not guilty, to a unanimous guilty? Just seems really odd.

Well, according to producers on the today show today (link upthread) one of the jurors feared for their personal safety if they didn't convict. Can't blame them with Lenk out there. He's stone cold.

I saw that earlier this morning. Honestly, wouldn't surprise me if true.

True, can't blame them for fearing for their lives, especially if it started out in a favor of not guilty by most of the jurors. Part of me feels everything was setup initially by the county for Avery to go down for this. Why pull a jury panel from Manitowoc County or another close county (not sure how that whole process works tbh), when it is a small town where everyone knows everybody (including the type of cop that Lenk is). While not everyone on the panel was biased, but even if a few are, it can completely sway an outcome of the decision, which appears is what happened here.

This couldn't be any further from reality. Very possible to draw a jury from Manitowoc County that knew nothing about Steven Avery or his family or Lenk. How small do you actually think Manitowoc County is and how small of an area?

 

[SIDA!]

Where you been, Lenk?

ROTFLMAO

 

[SIDA!]

This may have already been mentioned, but I just finished the season and have not read the entire thread...there are multiple times where Detective Lenk's story was changed during the trial from his original statements made months earlier, so it would better fit with the prosecutor's timeline (e.g. the whole time log around the Rav 4 after discovery). Also, Coburn was still sniffing around evidence 4 months AFTER he was removed from the investigation for conflict of interest reasons.

How this does not scream reasonable doubt to the jury is beyond me, let alone, all of the other pieces of evidence that could be seen as reasonable doubt for Avery's case of innocence.

I have about a 25% gut feeling that he may have been guilty, as she was last saw on his property, but I also think evidence had to have been planted by the police to some degree. They search his trailer multiple times head to toe, and didn't find the key until like the 3rd day or something after already searching everything? Shady...

It was 7-4 in favor of not guilty when the jury first voted. The 4 were very stubborn and persuasive according to the dismissed juror.

This is what I want to know more about. How can the jury go from the majority saying he's not guilty, to a unanimous guilty? Just seems really odd.

Well, according to producers on the today show today (link upthread) one of the jurors feared for their personal safety if they didn't convict. Can't blame them with Lenk out there. He's stone cold.

I saw that earlier this morning. Honestly, wouldn't surprise me if true.

True, can't blame them for fearing for their lives, especially if it started out in a favor of not guilty by most of the jurors. Part of me feels everything was setup initially by the county for Avery to go down for this. Why pull a jury panel from Manitowoc County or another close county (not sure how that whole process works tbh), when it is a small town where everyone knows everybody (including the type of cop that Lenk is). While not everyone on the panel was biased, but even if a few are, it can completely sway an outcome of the decision, which appears is what happened here.

This couldn't be any further from reality. Very possible to draw a jury from Manitowoc County that knew nothing about Steven Avery or his family or Lenk. How small do you actually think Manitowoc County is and how small of an area?

There are about 80,000 people in that county with roughly 20% being under the age of 18.

So...roughly a pool of 64,000 people.

About 15 years or so ago...the internet was still in its infancy and can't speak to cable/satellite. But I am sure that most people got their news from their local paper and the Milwaukee news stations. Don't know the TV market.

But after enduring 18 years in prison and being the subject of years of press, state level investigations, legislative bills, and ongoing lawsuits that were constantly in the news...I am guessing 60,000 of the 64,000 (at least) were aware of it. LOL

And the court did not send out 64,000 summons to find the "4,000" who had never heard anything about it. I have no idea how jurors are summoned up there...maybe it is by voter registration.

Regardless...even assuming you could find a pool of 4,000, not all of them will be qualified or ideal jurors...anyway. And truth be told...if you have not heard about Steve Avery...doesn't it almost kind of rule you out as being a capable juror in the sense that if you are that out of ####### touch with your community...you probably should just be left to do whatever it is you do every day?

 

[The Kerminator]

Thanks for answering my first question Woz. Got another one for you about the investigation. So Manitowoc prosecutors turn the investigation over to Calumet County. The two dopes from Calumet specifically state that the only involvement from Manitowoc County is to supply equipment needed onsite for the investigation. Three/four days into the property search, the crooked cops from Manitowoc who aren't supposed to be involved, suddenly find the car key. Wouldn't that be considered a tainted search/investigation and grounds for a mistrial? I haven't seen the trial episodes yet, but I'm hoping Avery's lawyers hammer that point home.

I don't believe turning over the case to Calumet County was court ordered. It was a voluntary move by Manitowoc County Sherif's department because they were involved in the lawsuit. Makes you wonder why they would do this if they were so intent on framing Avery. Wouldn't it be easier without Calumet County in the way? Unless you believe the Calumet County officer's were involved in the frame job. What would their motivation be then?

 

[The Kerminator]

I wonder if there is full trial video out there

Wonder if the filmmakers will ever release the full footage? I've heard estimates of anywhere from 180 hours of footage was shot up to 700 hours. 180 seems a bit low considering the trial was over a month long. 700 seems a bit high but if you consider the inclusion of press conferences might be closer to the actual number.

 

[The Gator]

KraztPrawn?

 

[The Kerminator]

The obvious answer would be that the bones were put there, just like the key, the car, and the lone bullet.

Except expert witness testified that the body was burned in the pit and not moved there. Something about metal strands from the burnt tires were intertwined with the bones.

 

[SIDA!]

The obvious answer would be that the bones were put there, just like the key, the car, and the lone bullet.

Except expert witness testified that the body was burned in the pit and not moved there. Something about metal strands from the burnt tires were intertwined with the bones.

KraztPrawn?

Kratzpawn?

I kid. I kid.

 

[The Kerminator]

KingPrawn:

Earlier in this thread I made the statement that I believe there is ZERO CHANCE that Avery killed Teresa in the trailer or the garage. Do you agree with this statement?

Yes I agree that you made that statement earlier in this thread.

 

[parasaurolophus]

This may have already been mentioned, but I just finished the season and have not read the entire thread...there are multiple times where Detective Lenk's story was changed during the trial from his original statements made months earlier, so it would better fit with the prosecutor's timeline (e.g. the whole time log around the Rav 4 after discovery). Also, Coburn was still sniffing around evidence 4 months AFTER he was removed from the investigation for conflict of interest reasons.

How this does not scream reasonable doubt to the jury is beyond me, let alone, all of the other pieces of evidence that could be seen as reasonable doubt for Avery's case of innocence.

I have about a 25% gut feeling that he may have been guilty, as she was last saw on his property, but I also think evidence had to have been planted by the police to some degree. They search his trailer multiple times head to toe, and didn't find the key until like the 3rd day or something after already searching everything? Shady...

It was 7-4 in favor of not guilty when the jury first voted. The 4 were very stubborn and persuasive according to the dismissed juror.

This is what I want to know more about. How can the jury go from the majority saying he's not guilty, to a unanimous guilty? Just seems really odd.

Well, according to producers on the today show today (link upthread) one of the jurors feared for their personal safety if they didn't convict. Can't blame them with Lenk out there. He's stone cold.

And yet the dismissed juror never mentioned this? Seems strange.

Perhaps friends are giving the juror a lot of grief. Facebook,twitter,reddit, here, etc pretty much all pro avery. I imagine it is the same way elsewhere. Nice easy excuse.

 

[SIDA!]

KingPrawn:

Earlier in this thread I made the statement that I believe there is ZERO CHANCE that Avery killed Teresa in the trailer or the garage. Do you agree with this statement?

Yes I agree that you made that statement earlier in this thread.

So...you aren't to be taken seriously. Carry on.

 

[JShare87]

After seeing the garage, there is absolutely no way she was shot in the head with the gun facing down. It would be physically impossible for anyone to clean the blood spatter off all that stuff. There was so much junk in that garage I don't think 100 people could've gotten everything cleaned up. If she was shot in there, there would be some blood somewhere. Also, no blood under the floor where the crack was. One thing I'm sure of is it didn't happen in the garage.

 

[SIDA!]

After seeing the garage, there is absolutely no way she was shot in the head with the gun facing down. It would be physically impossible for anyone to clean the blood spatter off all that stuff. There was so much junk in that garage I don't think 100 people could've gotten everything cleaned up. If she was shot in there, there would be some blood somewhere. Also, no blood under the floor where the crack was. One thing I'm sure of is it didn't happen in the garage.

Do you think she was killed in the trailer?

If not...do you think he killed her at all?

And regardless of whether or not you think he killed her...in your opinion what is the most damning evidence against Avery in your estimation?

 

[whoknew]

Thanks for answering my first question Woz. Got another one for you about the investigation. So Manitowoc prosecutors turn the investigation over to Calumet County. The two dopes from Calumet specifically state that the only involvement from Manitowoc County is to supply equipment needed onsite for the investigation. Three/four days into the property search, the crooked cops from Manitowoc who aren't supposed to be involved, suddenly find the car key. Wouldn't that be considered a tainted search/investigation and grounds for a mistrial? I haven't seen the trial episodes yet, but I'm hoping Avery's lawyers hammer that point home.

I don't believe turning over the case to Calumet County was court ordered. It was a voluntary move by Manitowoc County Sherif's department because they were involved in the lawsuit. Makes you wonder why they would do this if they were so intent on framing Avery. Wouldn't it be easier without Calumet County in the way? Unless you believe the Calumet County officer's were involved in the frame job. What would their motivation be then?

That's not a very good argument because Manitowoc County found all the evidence. So they had the illusion of passing the case to Calumet County, yet were still involved behind the scenes and found all of the relevant evidence.

It was the best of both worlds for MC Sheriff - they had the appearance of not being involved while still allegedly directing things behind the scenes.

 

[chet]

Jesus. Just watching ep 4. I feel bad for Brendan but he's so stupid. They're all borderline ######ed.

 

[Northern Voice]

Thanks for answering my first question Woz. Got another one for you about the investigation. So Manitowoc prosecutors turn the investigation over to Calumet County. The two dopes from Calumet specifically state that the only involvement from Manitowoc County is to supply equipment needed onsite for the investigation. Three/four days into the property search, the crooked cops from Manitowoc who aren't supposed to be involved, suddenly find the car key. Wouldn't that be considered a tainted search/investigation and grounds for a mistrial? I haven't seen the trial episodes yet, but I'm hoping Avery's lawyers hammer that point home.

I don't believe turning over the case to Calumet County was court ordered. It was a voluntary move by Manitowoc County Sherif's department because they were involved in the lawsuit. Makes you wonder why they would do this if they were so intent on framing Avery. Wouldn't it be easier without Calumet County in the way? Unless you believe the Calumet County officer's were involved in the frame job. What would their motivation be then?

Except that they clearly didn't actually hand the case over. Also, Calumet county officers are clearly incompetent since they were able to find nothing without Manitowoc officers.

 

[JShare87]

After seeing the garage, there is absolutely no way she was shot in the head with the gun facing down. It would be physically impossible for anyone to clean the blood spatter off all that stuff. There was so much junk in that garage I don't think 100 people could've gotten everything cleaned up. If she was shot in there, there would be some blood somewhere. Also, no blood under the floor where the crack was. One thing I'm sure of is it didn't happen in the garage.

Do you think she was killed in the trailer?If not...do you think he killed her at all?

And regardless of whether or not you think he killed her...in your opinion what is the most damning evidence against Avery in your estimation?

Not in the trailer either. No DNA found anywhere in the trailer?!?! No way she died in there either. The most damning thing against Avery, imo is his background and location of the body and vehicle. Does that make him guilty? Absolutely not. I'm not sure one way or the other if he's guilty. The only way I could seeing him doing something like this is if he made an advance at her because he was lonely because Jodi was in prison. He made a move she declined and he forced himself on her. If I had to guess though, I'd say it was Bobby Dassey. I think he did in fact see her at Avery's house and followed her. Just my 2 cents.

 

[SIDA!]

Thanks for answering my first question Woz. Got another one for you about the investigation. So Manitowoc prosecutors turn the investigation over to Calumet County. The two dopes from Calumet specifically state that the only involvement from Manitowoc County is to supply equipment needed onsite for the investigation. Three/four days into the property search, the crooked cops from Manitowoc who aren't supposed to be involved, suddenly find the car key. Wouldn't that be considered a tainted search/investigation and grounds for a mistrial? I haven't seen the trial episodes yet, but I'm hoping Avery's lawyers hammer that point home.

I don't believe turning over the case to Calumet County was court ordered. It was a voluntary move by Manitowoc County Sherif's department because they were involved in the lawsuit. Makes you wonder why they would do this if they were so intent on framing Avery. Wouldn't it be easier without Calumet County in the way? Unless you believe the Calumet County officer's were involved in the frame job. What would their motivation be then?

That's not a very good argument because Manitowoc County found all the evidence. So they had the illusion of passing the case to Calumet County, yet were still involved behind the scenes and found all of the relevant evidence.

It was the best of both worlds for MC Sheriff - they had the appearance of not being involved while still allegedly directing things behind the scenes.

Upon first reading of your comment...I literally thought you were playing off MC Gas Money's handle...lmao.

 

[The Kerminator]

KingPrawn:

Earlier in this thread I made the statement that I believe there is ZERO CHANCE that Avery killed Teresa in the trailer or the garage. Do you agree with this statement?

Yes I agree that you made that statement earlier in this thread.

So...you aren't to be taken seriously. Carry on.

How am I to answer as to what you believe?

 

[avoiding injuries]

KingPrawn:

Earlier in this thread I made the statement that I believe there is ZERO CHANCE that Avery killed Teresa in the trailer or the garage. Do you agree with this statement?

Yes I agree that you made that statement earlier in this thread.

So...you aren't to be taken seriously. Carry on.

How am I to answer as to what you believe?

He's asking if you think there's a chance she was killed in the trailer or garage.

 

[Das Boot]

We're 11 pages and 500+ posts in and I just realized the thread gets the show title wrong.

Yeah, he murdered it.

 

[SIDA!]

KingPrawn:

Earlier in this thread I made the statement that I believe there is ZERO CHANCE that Avery killed Teresa in the trailer or the garage. Do you agree with this statement?

Yes I agree that you made that statement earlier in this thread.

So...you aren't to be taken seriously. Carry on.

How am I to answer as to what you believe?

 

[SIDA!]

KingPrawn:

Earlier in this thread I made the statement that I believe there is ZERO CHANCE that Avery killed Teresa in the trailer or the garage. Do you agree with this statement?

Yes I agree that you made that statement earlier in this thread.

So...you aren't to be taken seriously. Carry on.

How am I to answer as to what you believe?

He's asking if you think there's a chance she was killed in the trailer or garage.

KingPrawn couldn't figure that out and didn't even watch the documentary before he started popping off.

The irony of him "not being able to pick that up" while simultaneously wanting to school us with his awesome rebuttals is lost on him.

 

[Das Boot]

What was the point of the odd videos they showed with Halbach? I think they showed two of them?

The video shown where she said if she were to die, she wanted her family to know she had led a full life was odd.

Maybe there was some context around why she said that which wasn't shown.

It made me wonder if her saying that had any connection with the stalker she possibly may have had.

 

[Das Boot]

Wow, the power of an extremely biased TV show is just amazing to me how many people are taking this NetFlix series as fact, and no room at all for discussion.

The old adage, it's on TV so it must be true.

Simply amazing

You're being obtuse.

 

[Dickies]

The obvious answer would be that the bones were put there, just like the key, the car, and the lone bullet.

Except expert witness testified that the body was burned in the pit and not moved there. Something about metal strands from the burnt tires were intertwined with the bones.

The reason that expert thought they were not moved there is because that is where the majority of the bones were found. The defense had an expert that came to the opposite conclusion (and is the one I agree with) that if you were going to move bones you would move the majority of the bones, not remnants.

 

[SIDA!]

The obvious answer would be that the bones were put there, just like the key, the car, and the lone bullet.

Except expert witness testified that the body was burned in the pit and not moved there. Something about metal strands from the burnt tires were intertwined with the bones.

The reason that expert thought they were not moved there is because that is where the majority of the bones were found. The defense had an expert that came to the opposite conclusion (and is the one I agree with) that if you were going to move bones you would move the majority of the bones, not remnants.

Which seems the only logical way to go. If I am moving a pile of anything...odds are I am going to get the lion share of whatever I am moving from point A to point B.

There are a few scenarios where the reverse could be true...but not likely.

 

[Wrigley]

After seeing the garage, there is absolutely no way she was shot in the head with the gun facing down. It would be physically impossible for anyone to clean the blood spatter off all that stuff. There was so much junk in that garage I don't think 100 people could've gotten everything cleaned up. If she was shot in there, there would be some blood somewhere. Also, no blood under the floor where the crack was. One thing I'm sure of is it didn't happen in the garage.

He cleaned all the blood, but missed the 11 shell casings?

 

[The Kerminator]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either. They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

 

[Road Warriors]

This may have already been mentioned, but I just finished the season and have not read the entire thread...there are multiple times where Detective Lenk's story was changed during the trial from his original statements made months earlier, so it would better fit with the prosecutor's timeline (e.g. the whole time log around the Rav 4 after discovery). Also, Coburn was still sniffing around evidence 4 months AFTER he was removed from the investigation for conflict of interest reasons.

How this does not scream reasonable doubt to the jury is beyond me, let alone, all of the other pieces of evidence that could be seen as reasonable doubt for Avery's case of innocence.

I have about a 25% gut feeling that he may have been guilty, as she was last saw on his property, but I also think evidence had to have been planted by the police to some degree. They search his trailer multiple times head to toe, and didn't find the key until like the 3rd day or something after already searching everything? Shady...

It was 7-4 in favor of not guilty when the jury first voted. The 4 were very stubborn and persuasive according to the dismissed juror.

I may have missed it. Did this dismissed juror mention anything about the jury feeling threatened as the makers of the show are now claiming? You would think he would mention it if it were true. Seems almost as important as the initial vote that was taken.

Wasn't he dismissed in the first day of deliberations?

I can't remember the exact timeline, but I thought it was very early, so any "fearing for our safety" issues would likely have happened after he was out of the room

 

[The Kerminator]

KingPrawn:

Earlier in this thread I made the statement that I believe there is ZERO CHANCE that Avery killed Teresa in the trailer or the garage. Do you agree with this statement?

Yes I agree that you made that statement earlier in this thread.

So...you aren't to be taken seriously. Carry on.

How am I to answer as to what you believe?

He's asking if you think there's a chance she was killed in the trailer or garage.

KingPrawn couldn't figure that out and didn't even watch the documentary before he started popping off.

The irony of him "not being able to pick that up" while simultaneously wanting to school us with his awesome rebuttals is lost on him.

I knew exactly what you were trying to ask.

The fact that those that happen to disagree with my viewpoint have to resort to name calling or insults is telling.

 

[whoknew]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either. They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

What are your thoughts on Brendan?

 

[The Kerminator]

This may have already been mentioned, but I just finished the season and have not read the entire thread...there are multiple times where Detective Lenk's story was changed during the trial from his original statements made months earlier, so it would better fit with the prosecutor's timeline (e.g. the whole time log around the Rav 4 after discovery). Also, Coburn was still sniffing around evidence 4 months AFTER he was removed from the investigation for conflict of interest reasons.

How this does not scream reasonable doubt to the jury is beyond me, let alone, all of the other pieces of evidence that could be seen as reasonable doubt for Avery's case of innocence.

I have about a 25% gut feeling that he may have been guilty, as she was last saw on his property, but I also think evidence had to have been planted by the police to some degree. They search his trailer multiple times head to toe, and didn't find the key until like the 3rd day or something after already searching everything? Shady...

It was 7-4 in favor of not guilty when the jury first voted. The 4 were very stubborn and persuasive according to the dismissed juror.

I may have missed it. Did this dismissed juror mention anything about the jury feeling threatened as the makers of the show are now claiming? You would think he would mention it if it were true. Seems almost as important as the initial vote that was taken.

Wasn't he dismissed in the first day of deliberations?

I can't remember the exact timeline, but I thought it was very early, so any "fearing for our safety" issues would likely have happened after he was out of the room

Possible. I'm not sure when he was dismissed. But I don't get the point of it being stated over and over again that the initial vote was 7-4 or whatever it was. That's how jury's work. It is common for jurors to change their mind.

 

[SIDA!]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either. They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

Talk about a whole lot of words signifying next to nothing.

So, basically...you make some vague assertions without getting into any of the specific details of the case. Your take amounts to the following: the producers had a bias or an agenda and some of the posters talking about it don't know what the heck they are saying.

Fantastic analysis. I agree.

Do you think maybe we can get back to discussing specifics of the case...the facts of the case...like how in the hell did Avery hide Teresa's car key up his ###, then break out of jail and tuck the car key under some slippers after his trailer had already been searched repeatedly? And why exactly wasn't there any fecal matter on it?

 

[The Kerminator]

It was posted earlier in the thread an article stating 14 pieces of evidence that were left out of the series. were these included in that article or are they new?

The bullet found in the garage was from the .22 cal gun that hung over Steven Avery's bed until Nov. 5th. Ballistics say it is that gun that fired that bullet. The gun is seized Nov. 6th and is stored in the Calumet County evidence locker in Chilton. This is never mentioned in the documentary. Now the question is, if the bullet is planted with Teresa Halbach's DNA evidence on it, how do the Manitowoc County cops being accused of planting it, have a fired bullet from Avery's gun which had to be fired from it before 11/5? Did they break in to the Calumet County evidence locker? Were Calumet County officers involved?

Second item, After March 1st, after Dassey tells them that they hid the SUV and Steven popped open the hood and unhooked the battery, the Wisconsin crime lab swabs the hood and latch for Avery's DNA. DNA is found but it is not blood. It is from skin cells from Avery's sweat. Now how did that get there? Did the crooked cops also have a vial of Avery's sweat? Did they plant it after it was in possession of the Wisconsin crime lab?

I have to ask myself, now why didn't the so-called documentary include the above 2 pieces of evidence or the 14 pieces stated in the previous article? They sure seem like some key pieces of evidence, wouldn't you agree? Then it makes me wonder, what else are they leaving out?

I sure would like to see ALL the unedited footage they have and base my opinion on that information rather than an all-agreed upon biased 10 hour series. Wonder if they'll ever release all the footage on the internet. It could very easily be done and if they are so sure of their conclusions then why don't they?

 

[The Kerminator]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either. They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

Talk about a whole lot of words signifying next to nothing.

So, basically...you make some vague assertions without getting into any of the specific details of the case. Your take amounts to the following: the producers had a bias or an agenda and some of the posters talking about it don't know what the heck they are saying.

Fantastic analysis. I agree.

Do you think maybe we can get back to discussing specifics of the case...the facts of the case...like how in the hell did Avery hide Teresa's car key up his ###, then break out of jail and tuck the car key under some slippers after his trailer had already been searched repeatedly? And why exactly wasn't there any fecal matter on it?

You want specifics of the case? Try reading my post directly after your post. But based on your last paragraph I don't believe you are at all serious about talking about specifics and the facts of the case. Your opinion is already formed despite me posting any specifics.

 

[GOB]

This thread:

https://youtu.be/ePcKq-rqZ8Y

 

[Das Boot]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

What information do you have that wasn't shown? Most people in this thread are very interested in learning more facts from the prosecution side to provide balance against what the documentary showed.

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either.

The defense provided compelling proof that the key was planted. Police from an adjacent county adamantly testified that that key wasn't there during all previous searches until it was found by Manitowoc police. The nightstand that the key fell from had previously been fully searched. The key was found underneath a slipper, which would presumably be an unlikely occurrence if it had freely fallen from the nightstand.

Then there's the blood vial that had been tampered with / compromised, which was also proven by the defense.

They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

 

[cockroach]

Shot of the key as it was found:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2dkzwab.png

 

[Das Boot]

It was posted earlier in the thread an article stating 14 pieces of evidence that were left out of the series. were these included in that article or are they new?

The bullet found in the garage was from the .22 cal gun that hung over Steven Avery's bed until Nov. 5th. Ballistics say it is that gun that fired that bullet. The gun is seized Nov. 6th and is stored in the Calumet County evidence locker in Chilton. This is never mentioned in the documentary. Now the question is, if the bullet is planted with Teresa Halbach's DNA evidence on it, how do the Manitowoc County cops being accused of planting it, have a fired bullet from Avery's gun which had to be fired from it before 11/5? Did they break in to the Calumet County evidence locker? Were Calumet County officers involved?

Second item, After March 1st, after Dassey tells them that they hid the SUV and Steven popped open the hood and unhooked the battery, the Wisconsin crime lab swabs the hood and latch for Avery's DNA. DNA is found but it is not blood. It is from skin cells from Avery's sweat. Now how did that get there? Did the crooked cops also have a vial of Avery's sweat? Did they plant it after it was in possession of the Wisconsin crime lab?

I have to ask myself, now why didn't the so-called documentary include the above 2 pieces of evidence or the 14 pieces stated in the previous article? They sure seem like some key pieces of evidence, wouldn't you agree? Then it makes me wonder, what else are they leaving out?

I sure would like to see ALL the unedited footage they have and base my opinion on that information rather than an all-agreed upon biased 10 hour series. Wonder if they'll ever release all the footage on the internet. It could very easily be done and if they are so sure of their conclusions then why don't they?

I was typing while you made this post, thanks for the additional evidence/facts.

I would speculate that there were lots of bullets from Avery's gun around the property, it's quite possible the Manitowoc cops picked up one of the spent bullets during their many, many searches of the place, giving them the later opportunity to add DNA to it and plant it in the garage.

As a side note, I'm kind of surprised that ballistics could identify what gun that bullet came from, it looked pretty flattened.

The sweat under the hood is an interesting and significant fact, and should have been presented in the documentary. It's disappointing they didn't mention it. However, just as the blood could have been planted, the cops could have taken any given dirty shirt of Avery's (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that there were plenty of them available) and rubbed the armpit of the shirt on the vehicle.

 

[The Kerminator]

Here's another point I have trouble resolving and maybe somebody that takes that point of view can help me out. Many people here have stated that Avery wouldn't be so stupid as to just hide Halbach's SUV when he could have crushed it. (A point I happen to disagree with as it assumes a) he was smart enough and b) that he was thinking rationally or that any of us know how anybody would act in that situation) But I'll play along and say OK he would have been smarter than that. Than wouldn't it also follow that the cops would have been smarter when planting the key in his room after several searches? Or are we assuming that Avery was smart and the cops were dumb?

 

[avoiding injuries]

Shot of the key as it was found:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2dkzwab.png

That explains why it was missed the first few times the room was searched and colburn aggressively shook the book case.

 

[Das Boot]

Shot of the key as it was found:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2dkzwab.png

So not really "under" the slipper per se.

It would be interesting to know if the edge of the slipper was on top of the key (hard to tell from the photo), or the key is laying just adjacent to the slipper.

 

[SIDA!]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either. They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

Talk about a whole lot of words signifying next to nothing.

So, basically...you make some vague assertions without getting into any of the specific details of the case. Your take amounts to the following: the producers had a bias or an agenda and some of the posters talking about it don't know what the heck they are saying.

Fantastic analysis. I agree.

Do you think maybe we can get back to discussing specifics of the case...the facts of the case...like how in the hell did Avery hide Teresa's car key up his ###, then break out of jail and tuck the car key under some slippers after his trailer had already been searched repeatedly? And why exactly wasn't there any fecal matter on it?

You want specifics of the case? Try reading my post directly after your post. But based on your last paragraph I don't believe you are at all serious about talking about specifics and the facts of the case. Your opinion is already formed despite me posting any specifics.

LOL...I engaged you in good faith and you mocked me by giving a ridiculously obtuse answer, twice. Now you are butthurt?

My mind is made up that Avery did not kill Teresa in the garage or the trailer. Did you see anywhere else that I posted where I stated unequivocally that I thought he was guilty or innocent?

What a clown car you are.

 

[Mors Venit]

Shot of the key as it was found:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2dkzwab.png

That explains why it was missed the first few times the room was searched and colburn aggressively shook the book case.

Book case was planted too.

No way Steve Avery reads.

 

[SIDA!]

Here's another point I have trouble resolving and maybe somebody that takes that point of view can help me out. Many people here have stated that Avery wouldn't be so stupid as to just hide Halbach's SUV when he could have crushed it. (A point I happen to disagree with as it assumes a) he was smart enough and b) that he was thinking rationally or that any of us know how anybody would act in that situation) But I'll play along and say OK he would have been smarter than that. Than wouldn't it also follow that the cops would have been smarter when planting the key in his room after several searches? Or are we assuming that Avery was smart and the cops were dumb?

The same guy you think is too dumb and thus hides the car on the lot is the same dude smart enough to wipe out every trace of blood from the trailer and garage areas where she was stabbed/shot?

Okay.

P.S. He seemed pretty handy though...so I think it is possible he buffed out, sanded, spackled and re-finished the bed from all those shackles/handcuffs and chains that were used to hold her down.

 

[The Kerminator]

Here's where I'm at. I choose to base my opinion on information not just shown in the NETFLIX series. I know. Wild, huh?

What information do you have that wasn't shown? Most people in this thread are very interested in learning more facts from the prosecution side to provide balance against what the documentary showed.

It has been reported that the filmmakers have anywhere from 180 to 700 hours of footage. They have stated that they filmed it from the perspective of the defense side. Just about everyone here agrees that the series is obviously biased. They edited say roughly 400 hours of footage down to 10 hours, with the viewpoint of the defense in mind. So obviously, a lot of information had to be left out. They also imply as the defense did that some of the evidence was planted. The defense failed to provide any proof of this. And the filmmakers, despite having roughly 10 years to come up with any evidence, didn't produce any either.

The defense provided compelling proof that the key was planted. Police from an adjacent county adamantly testified that that key wasn't there during all previous searches until it was found by Manitowoc police. The nightstand that the key fell from had previously been fully searched. The key was found underneath a slipper, which would presumably be an unlikely occurrence if it had freely fallen from the nightstand.

Then there's the blood vial that had been tampered with / compromised, which was also proven by the defense.

They also had 10 years to edit the film to exactly the viewpoint they wanted to sell. It is also a reality based television show not designed to find the truth or justice but to get ratings. I don't think there is a coincidence that this was released at a time when all police departments are looked at with mistrust either.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time petitioning the governor or the president to release a convicted murderer based on the information provided in the series. I also have a hard time trashing the reputations of the officers based solely on the netflix series. I want more facts about the case and have looked elsewhere for them. And honestly, there's a lot of crap in this thread by people that have no idea what they are talking about. Statements made by posters such as "You have to understand, in towns like this the press rely on the police for their information . . ." (from people who had no idea where Manitowoc was until they googled it) and statements like "The jurors felt pressured because in a small county they either knew the Avery's or did business with them . . " or "Manitowoc County is a small county and it would be impossible to find a jury that wasn't corrupted or tainted . . ."

I leave open the slight possibility that Avery is innocent (very doubtful) and leave open the possibility that evidence was planted but I'm not buying into 100% the premise of the show as many here are and I'll base my opinion on more than what was shown in the series.

I see you have since responded and read my later post.

I don't know. Maybe the key was in the slipper and it was kicked during the search of the bookcase/dresser. I don't know. Planted is a possibility. The prosecution also had a witness testify that the blood samples did not come from a vial. Depends on what you choose to believe.

But I'm choosing not to base my opinion on this series alone, especially when it has been shown that key pieces of evidence have been left out. Give me 400 hours of film on any subject and I can almost guarantee I can edit it down to 10 hours to make any viewpoint seem valid.

 

[The Kerminator]

It was posted earlier in the thread an article stating 14 pieces of evidence that were left out of the series. were these included in that article or are they new?

The bullet found in the garage was from the .22 cal gun that hung over Steven Avery's bed until Nov. 5th. Ballistics say it is that gun that fired that bullet. The gun is seized Nov. 6th and is stored in the Calumet County evidence locker in Chilton. This is never mentioned in the documentary. Now the question is, if the bullet is planted with Teresa Halbach's DNA evidence on it, how do the Manitowoc County cops being accused of planting it, have a fired bullet from Avery's gun which had to be fired from it before 11/5? Did they break in to the Calumet County evidence locker? Were Calumet County officers involved?

Second item, After March 1st, after Dassey tells them that they hid the SUV and Steven popped open the hood and unhooked the battery, the Wisconsin crime lab swabs the hood and latch for Avery's DNA. DNA is found but it is not blood. It is from skin cells from Avery's sweat. Now how did that get there? Did the crooked cops also have a vial of Avery's sweat? Did they plant it after it was in possession of the Wisconsin crime lab?

I have to ask myself, now why didn't the so-called documentary include the above 2 pieces of evidence or the 14 pieces stated in the previous article? They sure seem like some key pieces of evidence, wouldn't you agree? Then it makes me wonder, what else are they leaving out?

I sure would like to see ALL the unedited footage they have and base my opinion on that information rather than an all-agreed upon biased 10 hour series. Wonder if they'll ever release all the footage on the internet. It could very easily be done and if they are so sure of their conclusions then why don't they?

I was typing while you made this post, thanks for the additional evidence/facts.

I would speculate that there were lots of bullets from Avery's gun around the property, it's quite possible the Manitowoc cops picked up one of the spent bullets during their many, many searches of the place, giving them the later opportunity to add DNA to it and plant it in the garage.

As a side note, I'm kind of surprised that ballistics could identify what gun that bullet came from, it looked pretty flattened.

The sweat under the hood is an interesting and significant fact, and should have been presented in the documentary. It's disappointing they didn't mention it. However, just as the blood could have been planted, the cops could have taken any given dirty shirt of Avery's (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that there were plenty of them available) and rubbed the armpit of the shirt on the vehicle.

Thank you for your thoughtful response without the name calling. I leave open the possibility of the scenarios you presented.

Sure wish they would release all the footage on-line.