Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (3 Viewers)

[parrot]

My gut says he didn't do it. Too much was on the line for him and there was a lot of funny business going on that wasn't reported by the police.

I don't really get the "too much on the line" argument. I get that he was in line for a large amount of money, but anyone who commits a crime like this has "too much on the line" specifically the prospect of life in prison or even death in some cases, yet it happens fairly regularly. Negative consequences often don't carry that much weight with people with poor impulse control.

Also, I'd say the flip side of this is that Avery may have felt somewhat bullet-proof with his case against the county. Maybe he felt that he could coerce, or even force Halbach into things and the county would be scared to come after him lest it look like a witch-hunt. But then it got out of hand and he killed her.

If you think Avery is innocent; what are your thoughts on the evidence; the car and body mostly? Was the car planted there, or did someone else on the Avery compound kill her and hide the car? And was the body burned behind Avery's trailer, or moved there? Was it just dumb luck Avery had a bonfire that night?

The impluse control may be a huge factor. That is one aspect that I'll never personally be able to wrap my head around, but do agree that it happens far too often. SA may have shown signs of poor impulse control in the past as well. Maybe he did just snap in the heat of the moment. But to be fair, I think that can also be said for other potential suspects that the police failed to follow through with.

So the evidence itself does not make any sense. Crime scenes are either the garage or SA's bedroom according to the State's case. I'm almost 100% positive it happened somewhere else. By who or when.... no idea.

The blood smear in the back of the RAV 4 indicated that Teresa was bleeding from the head and transported in the vehicle. This alone doesn't support the killing in the garage or bedroom and then moved to the burn pit initially. The burn pit was right off of Avery's garage and house IIRC.

As far as the two locations in which bones were found, I can't see a reason why SA would kill her on his property. Drive her out to the gravel pit. Try to burn the body there, just to bring pieces back to his own property. If SA killed her, he would have tried to burn her in his own pit first and move the remains off site. But that goes back to my last part. Why use a car to move a dead body 20 feet?

Back to the RAV 4, someone noted that the tires had dried sand between the wheel tread. I'm personally curious to see if there are forensics that can confirm the RAV 4 was actually being driven within the gravel pit area.

Agreed, lot of weird stuff about the car. If she's killed in the house or garage, and the plan is to burn her behind the house, no reason to put her in the car. I believe in Brendan's first, and least coached, statement he indicated that Steven had tied her up and stabbed her in her car. This would actually make the most sense.

 

[parrot]

An article was posted on the previous page that goes through some of the other "suspects" the defense wanted to present. The Avery and Lassey clans were pretty sketchy and had some violent pasts. And some of them have rather odd alibis for that day. They all either lived on or next to the property. If Steven didn't do it, one of them did.

I agree they are the only other realistic possibilities.

Just doesnt make sense, Avery gets huge payday and everyone is on his side and he was starting new life. Anythings possible but only time he acted out in the past was when the deputys wife was talking about him jacking it in the yard and toward cars. I really think it was Bobby Dassey and his step dad. Would make sense why Brendan made confession to protect his brother. Also explains stepdads lying under oath to implicate Steven and his huge smile after the guilty verdict.

With this theory, is it premeditated, or did they just do it on the fly? Or did one of them do it and the other help cover for him? Steven called her out there and presumably was the only one who knew she was coming. Also, as far as making sense, why frame Steven for murder at this point? Couldn't his windfall have meant some trickle-down for the whole family?

 

[simmonjm]

My gut says he didn't do it. Too much was on the line for him and there was a lot of funny business going on that wasn't reported by the police.

I don't really get the "too much on the line" argument. I get that he was in line for a large amount of money, but anyone who commits a crime like this has "too much on the line" specifically the prospect of life in prison or even death in some cases, yet it happens fairly regularly. Negative consequences often don't carry that much weight with people with poor impulse control.

Also, I'd say the flip side of this is that Avery may have felt somewhat bullet-proof with his case against the county. Maybe he felt that he could coerce, or even force Halbach into things and the county would be scared to come after him lest it look like a witch-hunt. But then it got out of hand and he killed her.

If you think Avery is innocent; what are your thoughts on the evidence; the car and body mostly? Was the car planted there, or did someone else on the Avery compound kill her and hide the car? And was the body burned behind Avery's trailer, or moved there? Was it just dumb luck Avery had a bonfire that night?

The impluse control may be a huge factor. That is one aspect that I'll never personally be able to wrap my head around, but do agree that it happens far too often. SA may have shown signs of poor impulse control in the past as well. Maybe he did just snap in the heat of the moment. But to be fair, I think that can also be said for other potential suspects that the police failed to follow through with.

So the evidence itself does not make any sense. Crime scenes are either the garage or SA's bedroom according to the State's case. I'm almost 100% positive it happened somewhere else. By who or when.... no idea.

The blood smear in the back of the RAV 4 indicated that Teresa was bleeding from the head and transported in the vehicle. This alone doesn't support the killing in the garage or bedroom and then moved to the burn pit initially. The burn pit was right off of Avery's garage and house IIRC.

As far as the two locations in which bones were found, I can't see a reason why SA would kill her on his property. Drive her out to the gravel pit. Try to burn the body there, just to bring pieces back to his own property. If SA killed her, he would have tried to burn her in his own pit first and move the remains off site. But that goes back to my last part. Why use a car to move a dead body 20 feet?

Back to the RAV 4, someone noted that the tires had dried sand between the wheel tread. I'm personally curious to see if there are forensics that can confirm the RAV 4 was actually being driven within the gravel pit area.

When in past did Steven act out? Only time I can recall when drunk he threw cat in fire with another friend and then running the deputys wife off the road when she was talking about him. Both occured in his early 20s.

 

[gruecd]

My gut says he didn't do it. Too much was on the line for him and there was a lot of funny business going on that wasn't reported by the police.

I don't really get the "too much on the line" argument. I get that he was in line for a large amount of money, but anyone who commits a crime like this has "too much on the line" specifically the prospect of life in prison or even death in some cases, yet it happens fairly regularly. Negative consequences often don't carry that much weight with people with poor impulse control.

Also, I'd say the flip side of this is that Avery may have felt somewhat bullet-proof with his case against the county. Maybe he felt that he could coerce, or even force Halbach into things and the county would be scared to come after him lest it look like a witch-hunt. But then it got out of hand and he killed her.

If you think Avery is innocent; what are your thoughts on the evidence; the car and body mostly? Was the car planted there, or did someone else on the Avery compound kill her and hide the car? And was the body burned behind Avery's trailer, or moved there? Was it just dumb luck Avery had a bonfire that night?

The impluse control may be a huge factor. That is one aspect that I'll never personally be able to wrap my head around, but do agree that it happens far too often. SA may have shown signs of poor impulse control in the past as well. Maybe he did just snap in the heat of the moment. But to be fair, I think that can also be said for other potential suspects that the police failed to follow through with. So the evidence itself does not make any sense. Crime scenes are either the garage or SA's bedroom according to the State's case. I'm almost 100% positive it happened somewhere else. By who or when.... no idea.

The blood smear in the back of the RAV 4 indicated that Teresa was bleeding from the head and transported in the vehicle. This alone doesn't support the killing in the garage or bedroom and then moved to the burn pit initially. The burn pit was right off of Avery's garage and house IIRC.

As far as the two locations in which bones were found, I can't see a reason why SA would kill her on his property. Drive her out to the gravel pit. Try to burn the body there, just to bring pieces back to his own property. If SA killed her, he would have tried to burn her in his own pit first and move the remains off site. But that goes back to my last part. Why use a car to move a dead body 20 feet?

Back to the RAV 4, someone noted that the tires had dried sand between the wheel tread. I'm personally curious to see if there are forensics that can confirm the RAV 4 was actually being driven within the gravel pit area.

When in past did Steven act out? Only time I can recall when drunk he threw cat in fire with another friend and then running the deputys wife off the road when she was talking about him. Both occured in his early 20s.

I'm inclined to think that prison changes a person...

 

[simmonjm]

An article was posted on the previous page that goes through some of the other "suspects" the defense wanted to present. The Avery and Lassey clans were pretty sketchy and had some violent pasts. And some of them have rather odd alibis for that day. They all either lived on or next to the property. If Steven didn't do it, one of them did.

I agree they are the only other realistic possibilities.

Just doesnt make sense, Avery gets huge payday and everyone is on his side and he was starting new life. Anythings possible but only time he acted out in the past was when the deputys wife was talking about him jacking it in the yard and toward cars. I really think it was Bobby Dassey and his step dad. Would make sense why Brendan made confession to protect his brother. Also explains stepdads lying under oath to implicate Steven and his huge smile after the guilty verdict.

With this theory, is it premeditated, or did they just do it on the fly? Or did one of them do it and the other help cover for him? Steven called her out there and presumably was the only one who knew she was coming. Also, as far as making sense, why frame Steven for murder at this point? Couldn't his windfall have meant some trickle-down for the whole family?

Other than Steven it would seem outlandish for anyone involved including the police to premeditate the murder.

 

[Max Power]

My gut says he didn't do it. Too much was on the line for him and there was a lot of funny business going on that wasn't reported by the police.

I don't really get the "too much on the line" argument. I get that he was in line for a large amount of money, but anyone who commits a crime like this has "too much on the line" specifically the prospect of life in prison or even death in some cases, yet it happens fairly regularly. Negative consequences often don't carry that much weight with people with poor impulse control.

Also, I'd say the flip side of this is that Avery may have felt somewhat bullet-proof with his case against the county. Maybe he felt that he could coerce, or even force Halbach into things and the county would be scared to come after him lest it look like a witch-hunt. But then it got out of hand and he killed her.

If you think Avery is innocent; what are your thoughts on the evidence; the car and body mostly? Was the car planted there, or did someone else on the Avery compound kill her and hide the car? And was the body burned behind Avery's trailer, or moved there? Was it just dumb luck Avery had a bonfire that night?

The impluse control may be a huge factor. That is one aspect that I'll never personally be able to wrap my head around, but do agree that it happens far too often. SA may have shown signs of poor impulse control in the past as well. Maybe he did just snap in the heat of the moment. But to be fair, I think that can also be said for other potential suspects that the police failed to follow through with.

So the evidence itself does not make any sense. Crime scenes are either the garage or SA's bedroom according to the State's case. I'm almost 100% positive it happened somewhere else. By who or when.... no idea.

The blood smear in the back of the RAV 4 indicated that Teresa was bleeding from the head and transported in the vehicle. This alone doesn't support the killing in the garage or bedroom and then moved to the burn pit initially. The burn pit was right off of Avery's garage and house IIRC.

As far as the two locations in which bones were found, I can't see a reason why SA would kill her on his property. Drive her out to the gravel pit. Try to burn the body there, just to bring pieces back to his own property. If SA killed her, he would have tried to burn her in his own pit first and move the remains off site. But that goes back to my last part. Why use a car to move a dead body 20 feet?

Back to the RAV 4, someone noted that the tires had dried sand between the wheel tread. I'm personally curious to see if there are forensics that can confirm the RAV 4 was actually being driven within the gravel pit area.

When in past did Steven act out? Only time I can recall when drunk he threw cat in fire with another friend and then running the deputys wife off the road when she was talking about him. Both occured in his early 20s.

He pulled a gun on her as well. But those were the only two that made it to the police level. Sounds like this family was constantly involved in some form of domestic disputes in which cops were called.

 

[On The Rocks]

I'm curious how many people here really think Steven is innocent? Not necessarily beyond a reasonable doubt, just what your gut tells you.

I think there was some hinky stuff on the police/prosecution side, I also think he is probably guilty.

Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? No.

My gut however is completely deadlocked with no hope of coming to a decision.

 

[The Flying Elvis]

Some updated information.... http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

Some stuff about Steven potentially molesting Brendan, as well as a link to the full transcript of the confession interview.

 

[Daywalker]

Some updated information.... http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

Some stuff about Steven potentially molesting Brendan, as well as a link to the full transcript of the confession interview.

Did the writer even read the Kelly transcripts? Idiot.

The writer says Brendan revealed all this damming evidence to Kelly without being fed details. That is true but all these details had previously been fed to Brendan by Fassbender/Weigert.

The Kelly transcript also doesn't have Brendan going over to Avery's until 7-8pm or so. The story we have all been fed is Brendan heard screams when he was at the mailbox and went to the trailer to check it out. That would explain how/why Brendan got involved. According to the Kelly transcript Avery called Brendan over at 7-8pm to partake in a rape/murder. That is much harder to believe. Avery in the midst of a rape/murder called Brendan over.

 

[Daywalker]

So Avery dumped the cell phone and palm pilot in fire pit but also thought to remove the car battery and make that disappear?

 

[TheMagus]

Yea. That transcript was what was shown in the series. Not sure what that writer was watching.

And that was just one version of his story. There were others and none of them make sense based on the forensics.

 

[RUSF18]

Read that link as well and was wondering what I missed as far as new info. I guess the molestation stuff is new but I would assume it's just as likely that was cop-generated as well. "Did your uncle ever touch you?" "no..." "He touched you, didn't he?" "Yeaaaa..."

 

[Apple Juice]

An article was posted on the previous page that goes through some of the other "suspects" the defense wanted to present. The Avery and Lassey clans were pretty sketchy and had some violent pasts. And some of them have rather odd alibis for that day. They all either lived on or next to the property. If Steven didn't do it, one of them did.

I agree they are the only other realistic possibilities.

Just doesnt make sense, Avery gets huge payday and everyone is on his side and he was starting new life. Anythings possible but only time he acted out in the past was when the deputys wife was talking about him jacking it in the yard and toward cars. I really think it was Bobby Dassey and his step dad. Would make sense why Brendan made confession to protect his brother. Also explains stepdads lying under oath to implicate Steven and his huge smile after the guilty verdict.

With this theory, is it premeditated, or did they just do it on the fly? Or did one of them do it and the other help cover for him? Steven called her out there and presumably was the only one who knew she was coming. Also, as far as making sense, why frame Steven for murder at this point? Couldn't his windfall have meant some trickle-down for the whole family?

Other than Steven it would seem outlandish for anyone involved including the police to premeditate the murder.

All the implied tampering could be considered outlandish too. This story is riveting in large part because outlandish things seemed to have actually happened.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Just finished all of it.

Can't come to any conclusion about guilt or innocence for either SA or BD.

But it sure as hell looks like neither one of them got a fair trial and/or the cops and prosecutors pulled some major bull ####.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Just finished all of it.

Can't come to any conclusion about guilt or innocence for either SA or BD.

But it sure as hell looks like neither one of them got a fair trial and/or the cops and prosecutors pulled some major bull ####.

####in' eh.

What can be learned here is that the police & prosecutors will do whatever needs to be done to convict you if they feel threatened or simply need the conviction to wrap things up politically. Unless you have a lot of money and political influence - you are ####ed.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Probably not going to watch it. A coworker quit watching it after a few episodes because he said it's ridiculously biased.

Pretty sure almost any conviction could appear like a miscarriage with 10 years of effort put into researching that side of it.

The Avery trial might be news to a lot of you, but locally it was the largest trial since Jeffery Dahmer. The idea that a local police department could pull off such an elaborate frame job with that much media scrutiny is very hard to swallow.

What, did they just wait until there was someone who the last person to see her alive was Avery, then either some other random person killed her, or did the cops do it themselves as part of the frame up? I keep hearing how they were out to get him because of the lawsuit, but that wasn't money out of their pocket. The taxpayers would foot that bill, so why pull a huge frame job again?

This series is starting to get some buzz in the Wisconsin media and talk radio. Local spin is that the series is really interesting but should not be viewed as much more than entertainment. Based on this thread and the hate mail those guys are getting it seems people are taking the series as gospel.

I'll say this, I was hugely sympathetic to Avery after the rape was overturned, and if under further scrutiny it turns out he was framed for this, I hope the perpetrators burn and that Avery would get his life back and millions upon millions. I'm just not going there based on a 10 year long documentary that clearly had an agenda. If mainstream media picks up the cause I'll reevaluate then.

Not really...especially if the DA is part of it. For example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kern_County_child_abuse_cases

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1196112/.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=42Z_vDg81Ig

http://injusticebusters.org/04/Bakersfield_Calif.htm

 

[whoknew]

Probably not going to watch it. A coworker quit watching it after a few episodes because he said it's ridiculously biased.

Pretty sure almost any conviction could appear like a miscarriage with 10 years of effort put into researching that side of it.

The Avery trial might be news to a lot of you, but locally it was the largest trial since Jeffery Dahmer. The idea that a local police department could pull off such an elaborate frame job with that much media scrutiny is very hard to swallow.

What, did they just wait until there was someone who the last person to see her alive was Avery, then either some other random person killed her, or did the cops do it themselves as part of the frame up? I keep hearing how they were out to get him because of the lawsuit, but that wasn't money out of their pocket. The taxpayers would foot that bill, so why pull a huge frame job again?

This series is starting to get some buzz in the Wisconsin media and talk radio. Local spin is that the series is really interesting but should not be viewed as much more than entertainment. Based on this thread and the hate mail those guys are getting it seems people are taking the series as gospel.

I'll say this, I was hugely sympathetic to Avery after the rape was overturned, and if under further scrutiny it turns out he was framed for this, I hope the perpetrators burn and that Avery would get his life back and millions upon millions. I'm just not going there based on a 10 year long documentary that clearly had an agenda. If mainstream media picks up the cause I'll reevaluate then.

Not really...especially if the DA is part of it. For example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kern_County_child_abuse_cases

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1196112/.

Right. There's even a thread dedicated to corruption in the judicial system.

 

[parrot]

Rewatching the parts where Kelly is trying to get Brendan to sign the statement saying he is sorry and Brendan repeatedly tells him he was only there for the fire while Kelly keeps telling him that's not true. Want to go through the monitor and punch the ####### in the mouth.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Rewatching the parts where Kelly is trying to get Brendan to sign the statement saying he is sorry and Brendan repeatedly tells him he was only there for the fire while Kelly keeps telling him that's not true. Want to go through the monitor and punch the ####### in the mouth.

I wish there was a hell so this guy for burn for all eternity.

 

[Apple Juice]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

It's extremely difficult to look at those three instances as not the work of Manitowowc County, specifically Lenk.

From there it seems to me like all bets are off. It's like the cops realized there wasn't any evidence and had to create it. If SA really did what he was charged of, I can't fathom there being a need to create evidence, it should have been everywhere.

 

[Apple Juice]

Probably not going to watch it. A coworker quit watching it after a few episodes because he said it's ridiculously biased.

Pretty sure almost any conviction could appear like a miscarriage with 10 years of effort put into researching that side of it.

The Avery trial might be news to a lot of you, but locally it was the largest trial since Jeffery Dahmer. The idea that a local police department could pull off such an elaborate frame job with that much media scrutiny is very hard to swallow.

What, did they just wait until there was someone who the last person to see her alive was Avery, then either some other random person killed her, or did the cops do it themselves as part of the frame up? I keep hearing how they were out to get him because of the lawsuit, but that wasn't money out of their pocket. The taxpayers would foot that bill, so why pull a huge frame job again?

This series is starting to get some buzz in the Wisconsin media and talk radio. Local spin is that the series is really interesting but should not be viewed as much more than entertainment. Based on this thread and the hate mail those guys are getting it seems people are taking the series as gospel.

I'll say this, I was hugely sympathetic to Avery after the rape was overturned, and if under further scrutiny it turns out he was framed for this, I hope the perpetrators burn and that Avery would get his life back and millions upon millions. I'm just not going there based on a 10 year long documentary that clearly had an agenda. If mainstream media picks up the cause I'll reevaluate then.

Not really...especially if the DA is part of it. For example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kern_County_child_abuse_cases

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1196112/.

Butin addressed the seeming improbability of a conspiracy. He said he hears people say it'd take so many people to make it happen, but really it'd only take two or even one to set it in motion. The Sheriff and Lenk could have initiated all of it happening and only had to steer the rest of the people involved in the direction they wanted.

 

[Mors Venit]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

It's extremely difficult to look at those three instances as not the work of Manitowowc County, specifically Lenk.

From there it seems to me like all bets are off. It's like the cops realized there wasn't any evidence and had to create it. If SA really did what he was charged of, I can't fathom there being a need to create evidence, it should have been everywhere.

The blood smears were way too neat to have come from someone bleeding and rifling around in a car. There is no doubt those were planted. Plain as day.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

It's extremely difficult to look at those three instances as not the work of Manitowowc County, specifically Lenk.

From there it seems to me like all bets are off. It's like the cops realized there wasn't any evidence and had to create it. If SA really did what he was charged of, I can't fathom there being a need to create evidence, it should have been everywhere.

The blood smears were way too neat to have come from someone bleeding and rifling around in a car. There is no doubt those were planted. Plain as day.

What I don't understand is why we didn't hear the defense dismantle the prosecutor's closing argument that juror's would have to believe that police/prosecutors would have to have arranged the murder in addition to framing the defendant. How about just taking advantage of a murder and framing the guy?

I am not saying I believe he didn't do it - lots of doubt. But I have NO DOUBT that those ##########s did a ton of things illegally to convict the guy and should be in jail themselves.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Holy ####. I just got to the part in the closing arguments where the prosecutor said (in essence) "Well, if he's guilty, then who cares if the cops planted the key?"



I can't believe this guy got convicted. I don't care if the documentary is slanted -- there's no way there's not reasonable doubt here.

 

[cockroach]

Can someone remind me what Lenk and Colburn were being accused of doing in the civil trial exactly? Was it tampering with evidence? Something about how they got info that Avery was actually innocent (7 years before his eventual release) but hid it?

So if they did that.... and they are the two responsible for these spectacularly suspicious pieces of evidence.... and they weren't even supposed to be on the scene?

 

[jurrassic]

Interesting comment from the change.org petition: https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-steven-avery/c

which I urge you all to sign

"

I was juror #11 and was excused for a family emergency after the trial I asked another juror why they convicted steven . His comment was think of all the things he did when he was younger. I looked at all evidence and watched making a murderer. I have from the end of the trial and still believe that they are both innocent.

Richard Mahler, Cleveland, WI

2 days ago"

That guy was in the film a few times and you could tell we was pretty struck by the case. Really sucks whatever happened in his family. He seems like he might be one of the type to dig his heels in and cause a mistrial instead of going along to get along with the rest of the herd.

Petition for the kid as well: https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-brendan-dassey-463c253d-5a64-48f5-b5ac-76b4e2a40ac4

not getting nearly as much attention, but if you free Avery, you obviously have to free him as well.

I think what most people need to realize is how small Manitowoc is. The jurors were not untainted. They were predisposed not only to the press coverage, as mentioned in the documentary, but also based on their personal history and relationships in the community. These people all knew the Avery's or extended cousins. I'm sure many of them knew the detectives and the police officers as well. These are parents of friends of their kids in school, church members, bowling league members, etc. They brought all that with them to the deliberation. That's the issue of a jury by your peers when those peers aren't strangers

 

[KingPrawn]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

It's extremely difficult to look at those three instances as not the work of Manitowowc County, specifically Lenk.

From there it seems to me like all bets are off. It's like the cops realized there wasn't any evidence and had to create it. If SA really did what he was charged of, I can't fathom there being a need to create evidence, it should have been everywhere.

IIRC

1) FBI experts testified that the blood found did not contain a certain substance ( I forget the name of the substance) that would be present in the blood samples collected if it were to come from a vial

3) The key was on the floor but only after the investigating officer shook a bookcase and it fell out

 

[KingPrawn]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

It's extremely difficult to look at those three instances as not the work of Manitowowc County, specifically Lenk.

From there it seems to me like all bets are off. It's like the cops realized there wasn't any evidence and had to create it. If SA really did what he was charged of, I can't fathom there being a need to create evidence, it should have been everywhere.

The blood smears were way too neat to have come from someone bleeding and rifling around in a car. There is no doubt those were planted. Plain as day.

So you are an expert on what blood smears should look like coming from someone rifling around in a car?

 

[Binky The Doormat]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

It's extremely difficult to look at those three instances as not the work of Manitowowc County, specifically Lenk.

From there it seems to me like all bets are off. It's like the cops realized there wasn't any evidence and had to create it. If SA really did what he was charged of, I can't fathom there being a need to create evidence, it should have been everywhere.

The blood smears were way too neat to have come from someone bleeding and rifling around in a car. There is no doubt those were planted. Plain as day.

So you are an expert on what blood smears should look like coming from someone rifling around in a car?

No officer Prawn, he is not. Where shall I put your free donuts sir?

 

[KingPrawn]

Interesting comment from the change.org petition: https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-steven-avery/c

which I urge you all to sign

"

I was juror #11 and was excused for a family emergency after the trial I asked another juror why they convicted steven . His comment was think of all the things he did when he was younger. I looked at all evidence and watched making a murderer. I have from the end of the trial and still believe that they are both innocent.

Richard Mahler, Cleveland, WI

2 days ago"

That guy was in the film a few times and you could tell we was pretty struck by the case. Really sucks whatever happened in his family. He seems like he might be one of the type to dig his heels in and cause a mistrial instead of going along to get along with the rest of the herd.

Petition for the kid as well: https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-brendan-dassey-463c253d-5a64-48f5-b5ac-76b4e2a40ac4

not getting nearly as much attention, but if you free Avery, you obviously have to free him as well.

I think what most people need to realize is how small Manitowoc is. The jurors were not untainted. They were predisposed not only to the press coverage, as mentioned in the documentary, but also based on their personal history and relationships in the community. These people all knew the Avery's or extended cousins. I'm sure many of them knew the detectives and the police officers as well. These are parents of friends of their kids in school, church members, bowling league members, etc. They brought all that with them to the deliberation. That's the issue of a jury by your peers when those peers aren't strangers

Doubtful. Maybe in a small community but Manitowoc County is still large enough that many jurors are not going to know directly any of the Averys

 

[KingPrawn]

I'm curious how many people here really think Steven is innocent? Not necessarily beyond a reasonable doubt, just what your gut tells you.

I think there was some hinky stuff on the police/prosecution side, I also think he is probably guilty.

It makes for a much more interesting story (and ratings) if the brother, ex-boyfriend, one of the investigating officers did the crime even though there is absolutely no evidence of such other than "I don't like the way he looked during the press-conference" or "He looked sleezy to me".

 

[KingPrawn]

A good archive of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel articles covering the trial at the time

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/coverage-of-steven-averys-2007-trial-now-in-making-a-murderer-netflix-series-b99643080z1-363828481.html

 

[jamny]

Only 3 episodes in but I'm into it. Don't know anything about the story so I'm avoiding reading the thread.

Good show though...really well done.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Only 3 episodes in but I'm into it. Don't know anything about the story so I'm avoiding reading the thread.

Good show though...really well done.

Check in with KingPrawn from time-to-time for the crooked sheriff perspective.

 

[Mors Venit]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

It's extremely difficult to look at those three instances as not the work of Manitowowc County, specifically Lenk.

From there it seems to me like all bets are off. It's like the cops realized there wasn't any evidence and had to create it. If SA really did what he was charged of, I can't fathom there being a need to create evidence, it should have been everywhere.

The blood smears were way too neat to have come from someone bleeding and rifling around in a car. There is no doubt those were planted. Plain as day.

What I don't understand is why we didn't hear the defense dismantle the prosecutor's closing argument that juror's would have to believe that police/prosecutors would have to have arranged the murder in addition to framing the defendant. How about just taking advantage of a murder and framing the guy?

I am not saying I believe he didn't do it - lots of doubt. But I have NO DOUBT that those ##########s did a ton of things illegally to convict the guy and should be in jail themselves.

I think the most likely outcome was a juicy oppurtunity.I dont think any of the cop weasels would have the rocks to actually murder someone. Only a stone cold killer could plan that. Everyone pretty much folded under cross examination and became transparent.

Was the sherrif cross examined?

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

Of all the despicable people on this show, I think Len Kachinsky is the worst of them. What a scumbag, he shoudn't be allowed in a courtroom again. He's supposed to be defending people but just a stooge for the prosecution.

 

[Mors Venit]

Of all the despicable people on this show, I think Len Kachinsky is the worst of them. What a scumbag, he shoudn't be allowed in a courtroom again. He's supposed to be defending people but just a stooge for the prosecution.

How is this different from any court appointed attorney?

He was just blatant about it.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

I'm curious how many people here really think Steven is innocent? Not necessarily beyond a reasonable doubt, just what your gut tells you.

I think there was some hinky stuff on the police/prosecution side, I also think he is probably guilty.

We only saw one side but Im really not sure. I think Im close to 50/50 on this one. The cops were corrupt, they put him away once and didnt follow leads they should have.

Avery actually was in a position to gain a lot, seems a weird time to kill someone. He was about to cash in, Jodi was actually kind of hot by his standards. He would be a convenient guy to frame.

Barb's boyfriend Scott seemed pretty shady to me. Not sure how easy would it be for him to plant stuff around the property but he probably knew it well enough. He seemed guilty of something not sure what.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

Of all the despicable people on this show, I think Len Kachinsky is the worst of them. What a scumbag, he shoudn't be allowed in a courtroom again. He's supposed to be defending people but just a stooge for the prosecution.

How is this different from any court appointed attorney?

He was just blatant about it.

I don't know but the justice system is really screwed up if you think this is normal.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

The lack of blood spatter is not logical either. There is no explanation at all for that. They are right, how did he clean this up so well. I think if you believe nothing else that right there is some serious reasonable doubt.

Actually I think Im about 25/75 here, 25 he did it.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

Holy ####. I just got to the part in the closing arguments where the prosecutor said (in essence) "Well, if he's guilty, then who cares if the cops planted the key?"

Yeah that struck me as well.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

Lenk did blatantly lie under oath too. He certainly knew if he arrived during the day or night, not sure why he lied but he certainly isn't a trustworthy person and most likely a very corrupt cop.

 

[NJ]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

There is no doubt that he was describing the vehicle as he was looking at it. About the only thing I can think of (assuming you don't think the police found the vehicle somewhere else and planted it on the property) is that possibly he was searching the property without permission, stumbled on the vehicle, called in the plates to confirm it was hers, then realized that it could be considered an illegal search of the property so rather than report it he tells some members of her family to ask for permission to go on the property and search for the vehicle? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it would also explain how the hell after getting permission, 2 chicks found the car on a 40 acre salvage lot in the first 10 minutes they were looking (someone obviously told them where to look for it).

 

[Mors Venit]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

There is no doubt that he was describing the vehicle as he was looking at it. About the only thing I can think of (assuming you don't think the police found the vehicle somewhere else and planted it on the property) is that possibly he was searching the property without permission, stumbled on the vehicle, called in the plates to confirm it was hers, then realized that it could be considered an illegal search of the property so rather than report it he tells some members of her family to ask for permission to go on the property and search for the vehicle? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it would also explain how the hell after getting permission, 2 chicks found the car on a 40 acre salvage lot in the first 10 minutes they were looking (someone obviously told them where to look for it).

Werent they guided by the lord?

 

[TheMagus]

Yea. I agree that Coburn calling in the plates was not necessarily hard evidence that the cops planted the car there. Like you said, they could have been illegally searching the Avery property which would shock no one.

But.... IIRC, that phone call was made a couple of days before Teresa was reported missing. So that does put a bit of a wrench in that theory.

 

[NJ]

Holy ####. I just got to the part in the closing arguments where the prosecutor said (in essence) "Well, if he's guilty, then who cares if the cops planted the key?"

That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I mean they just spent 3 weeks painstakingly providing endless testimony to try to prove that no evidence was tampered with or planted and talking about how disgusting it was for the defense to even try to smear the good name of these officers and then he ends with that little tidbit? How can you possibly let any doubt creep into the jurors minds that the key might have been planted? The entire case hinges on making the jury believe that the evidence was not tampered with, if you think they planted the key, then they obviously had the ability and opportunity to plant the rest of the evidence.

 

[NJ]

Yea. I agree that Coburn calling in the plates was not necessarily hard evidence that the cops planted the car there. Like you said, they could have been illegally searching the Avery property which would shock no one.

But.... IIRC, that phone call was made a couple of days before Teresa was reported missing. So that does put a bit of a wrench in that theory.

Yeah, I just went back and watched because I was wondering the same thing myself and couldn't remember when they said that call was made. According to the testimony that call was made on 11/3 and they didn't find the car until 11/5. If he was searching for a missing girl and found her car on the property and there was a chance she was still alive I would like to think he wouldn't wait 2 days to have someone search the property.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

On top of every wrong thing the cops and investigators did, the other thing I don't get is why the Judge did so little to help the defense and as much as he could to help the prosecution. Permitting jury selection from a local pool is so unfair in this small area, even if you are on the jury and have reasonable doubt, you still have to live in a town where everyone thinks he is guilty. That right there is something very few would want to deal with, the easiest way out is a guilty verdict.

 

[McGarnicle]

Just finished the first two episodes with my wife and it's the craziest story I've ever heard. I haven't read spoilers here or anywhere but I'm guessing he's in prison for murder. We agreed to watch the remaining 8 hours tomorrow, let's see if we can pull it off.

 

[Mors Venit]

Just finished the first two episodes with my wife and it's the craziest story I've ever heard. I haven't read spoilers here or anywhere but I'm guessing he's in prison for murder. We agreed to watch the remaining 8 hours tomorrow, let's see if we can pull it off.

If pressed for time just fast forward past the defensive presentations.

They are irrelevant.