Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Also if you search this thread for "trial transcript nuggets" you can find notes I made (pro and con) directly from the trial transcripts. Just FYI if you want more details about the case.
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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter The Flying Elvis
- Start date
Rattle and Hum
Footballguy
The coroner, the .22 bullet, the dogs, the bones found in Avery burn barrel on 2nd visit (not first), the quarry, the Dassey computer, the BD brother, the brother's lie, the RAV4 witness, the day planner, the trespassers, Sutkiewicz's position ...all compelling information in my mind. I'm sure this was all out there before S2 came along. Much of it touched on in NRJ's "Nuggets".
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
One if the biggest bits, that you didn't mention, is that NONE of the blood or DNA from Halbach and Avery are mixed. None.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
The Tadych's going ballistic on Steve on the phone was pretty cool. I don't think I've ever heard that many swear words yelled in 30 seconds.shuke said:
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Binky The Doormat
Footballguy
That lady ain't givin' up.Nathan R. Jessep said:
NotSmart
Footballguy
She's not, and I admire and appreciate the hell out of her for what she's doing and has done in the past.
She knows from experience how long these things can take.
And I 100% believe she'd walk in a NY minute if she thought Avery was guilty.
Binky The Doormat
Footballguy
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
I've got a lot of other things I want to watch. I loved season 1 of this and was fully engrossed like everyone else. But after doing my own research and realizing how biased it was, I'm not sure if I'm really that interested. If the facts are that damning, I should be able to find them somewhere without watching the show.
MrJimiT
Footballguy
I have found this entire "program" to be compelling...but mostly because I am intrigued at the justice system process. As viewers, I realize and accept that we are being force-fed a potentially skewed and one-sided view of the facts in these cases. But I have been pretty interested in watching the appellate and justice systems and the way they operate. I am uncertain of the guilt/innocence on the 2 incarcerated subjects of the show, but the "reasonable doubt" ideas that are portrayed are rather unsettling...even after a decade. For my own belief and sanity about the ideas of proper justice...I have to believe there are some facts that are not being presented in this show S1 & S2. We all enjoy good conspiracy stories every now and then, but there is no way the common average American could ever afford this level of investigation and attorney coverage. And to some degree, this saddens me that you have to have either boatloads of capital OR a story worthy of having a television special to be able to get THIS kind of attorney privilege.
Regardless of whether or not I believe injustice has occurred in this case...there's no way I would wear Steven Avery or Brendan Dassey t-shirts of support or rally behind them. The case may not have gone down like the verdict stated...but there's something amiss about the whole situation surrounding this murder.
Regardless of whether or not I believe injustice has occurred in this case...there's no way I would wear Steven Avery or Brendan Dassey t-shirts of support or rally behind them. The case may not have gone down like the verdict stated...but there's something amiss about the whole situation surrounding this murder.
Zellner seems to be focusing on just saying it didn't happen the way the prosecution said it did....and thats fine....and she thinks that is enough for reasonable doubt.....I think everyone can agree it may not have went down EXACTLY the way the prosecution initially stated....nobody will ever know that for sure....but just because it didn't go down EXACTLY the way the prosecution says, doesn't mean Avery still didn't do it....
after watching season 2, I found it really interesting all of the things that weren't a part of season 1.....and also how completely one sided these two seasons have been....
some things I noticed....
1. not until season 2 did we hear that Dassey made comments about things only he could know......he complained of "how bad the body smelled when it was burning".....and how "it sounded when she was struggling to breathe after being stabbed in the stomach"....and there was one more I forget....but it was the main focus of the lawyer who spoke in front of the 7th Circuit (and did a very good job I might add).....we never heard these things in season 1 and I''m not sure how Dassey could be coerced into making things up like that....those are pretty real, raw statements based on things he used his senses for (smell/sound/etc.)....so even though the kid is considered "slow" or whatever....those are pretty incriminating statements...
2. they keep talking about this "pelvic bone" stuff.....and finding pelvic bones elsewhere, but not once have they said it was "Teresa Halbach's pelvic bone"....in fact my wife and I both commented about how even Zellner is very careful not to say it is TH's pelvic bone.....is it her pelvic bone or not?...
anyway the comments by Dassey about smelling the burning body and hearing how she was struggling to breathe when stabbed in the stomach were kind of affirmations for me that even though it may not have gone down exactly how the prosecution initially stated....Avery and Dassey had a role in this
after watching season 2, I found it really interesting all of the things that weren't a part of season 1.....and also how completely one sided these two seasons have been....
some things I noticed....
1. not until season 2 did we hear that Dassey made comments about things only he could know......he complained of "how bad the body smelled when it was burning".....and how "it sounded when she was struggling to breathe after being stabbed in the stomach"....and there was one more I forget....but it was the main focus of the lawyer who spoke in front of the 7th Circuit (and did a very good job I might add).....we never heard these things in season 1 and I''m not sure how Dassey could be coerced into making things up like that....those are pretty real, raw statements based on things he used his senses for (smell/sound/etc.)....so even though the kid is considered "slow" or whatever....those are pretty incriminating statements...
2. they keep talking about this "pelvic bone" stuff.....and finding pelvic bones elsewhere, but not once have they said it was "Teresa Halbach's pelvic bone"....in fact my wife and I both commented about how even Zellner is very careful not to say it is TH's pelvic bone.....is it her pelvic bone or not?...
anyway the comments by Dassey about smelling the burning body and hearing how she was struggling to breathe when stabbed in the stomach were kind of affirmations for me that even though it may not have gone down exactly how the prosecution initially stated....Avery and Dassey had a role in this
Binky The Doormat
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
Maybe it's the fact that all the actual evidence points at those 2 and not remotely at anyone else?
parrot
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
As did Penny Beernsten, based on the filmmakers' being too close to Avery and his family and completely convinced of his innocence from the outset. MAM is not a dispassionate search for truth, it's a totally one-sided advocacy piece. Kratz is kind of a slimeball, but he was smart enough to realize that any involvement he had would have been sliced and diced to fit their slant.
MrJimiT
Footballguy
I didn't state it very clearly. Basically, I would not want to base my stand against injustice (if that's what I thought) on the facts and presentations of a Netflix TV special. So under my current premise of understanding....I do not believe that either/both of them are totally blameless in this case. But even if I did feel that way, it just isn't my style to promote their image and personification ALL THE WHILE there is a very real victim in all of this...and it is Teresa and her family. Whether or not these two had anything to do with the murder, what IS known is that someone died and died very violently.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Two wrongs don't make a right. Of course it's wrong what happened to Teresa. That however doesn't justify convicting people of it when there is reasonable doubt.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
If some new evidence comes out that proves he's guilty i won't be shocked. By same token i won't be shocked if he's proven innocent down the line.
The only thing clear to me is that there is enough reasonable doubt that i would have never felt comfortable sending him to prison.
ren hoek
Footballguy
So now, Brendan Dassey's family has to watch him die in prison, for a crime which there is absolutely zero physical evidence implicating him, based on a bogus confession he made from facts fed to him by interrogators as a mentally impressionable 16 year old with no parent or lawyer present. Shameful
ren hoek
Footballguy
mr roboto
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
Yes, all of this right here. Scott Tadych's response to information that could have been material to clearing Brendan/Avery's name was extremely bizarre. Witness Kevin Rahmlow reports seeing the RAV4 off 147 on Nov 3rd. Andrew Colborn takes the call, doesn't report the witness statement on the sighting of TH's vehicle. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey serve as each other's alibi, both going deerhunting but in completely different locations as they pass each other on 147.
Starting around 3:30
-RAV4 spotted on 3rd by witness in sworn affidavit
-information about RAV4 sighting given to Colborn on 4th, same day Colborn makes dispatch call IDing the plates
-Hillegas/search party discover car in Avery lot on 5th.
All of this is absolutely unthinkable. It places the car in a different location nowhere close to the Avery lot, long after she was last seen on the Avery property. All of this was withheld from the defense.
There's a lot of stuff in season 2 that I think further exonerates Avery, dismantles the state's case, and especially clears Dassey, but this one stood out the most for me. The state's star witness is disputed by his own brother (and mother in heated phone call), Brendan's testimony is unreliable, and there is almost zero physical evidence to support the state's theory.
It's the most obscene miscarriage of justice I've ever seen. Wisconsin justice system is an absolute joke, totally rigged. I hope Avery's parents get to see him out before they die.
There were a ton of RAV 4 back then...my wife drove one the exact color of TH’s.....”a “ RAV 4 being spotted somewhere else on several occasions doesn’t mean it was “her” RAV 4.....or even the same one each time...nothing to report to defense unless they are sure it was TH’s RAV 4 and as far as I know there is nothing confirming with 100% certainty that the other RAV 4 spottings were TH’s RAV 4....
@ren hoek......I’m interested in your take on Dassey’s comments about complaining how the bad the body smelled when it was burning and the the sounds she made when trying to breathe after being stabbed.....I have seen nothing that says the prosecution somehow force fed him these comments....although I’m sure thats what you will say...
@ren hoek......I’m interested in your take on Dassey’s comments about complaining how the bad the body smelled when it was burning and the the sounds she made when trying to breathe after being stabbed.....I have seen nothing that says the prosecution somehow force fed him these comments....although I’m sure thats what you will say...
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ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
The most interesting thing in MAM2 was how they explain how extremely difficult the burden is on the defense to overturn a lower courts decision.
Basically Avery is going to have to get proven innocent or a conspiracy to frame him being 100% clear.
The script completely flips once someone loses at trial. His innocence has to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt at this stage.
Due to that i think he's screwed.
Basically Avery is going to have to get proven innocent or a conspiracy to frame him being 100% clear.
The script completely flips once someone loses at trial. His innocence has to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt at this stage.
Due to that i think he's screwed.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
That’s not really accurate. If they can prove a constitutional violation beyond harmless error the conviction can be vacated. The challenge, however, is that there are serious procedural hurdles before courts will even consider the merits.
You have to come up with new information that wasn’t available to be used at trial. And that’s the challenge with a lot of the Bobby Dassey stuff.
ren hoek
Footballguy
I dunno. I have a hard time buying his testimony because there's no physical evidence to corroborate any of it. No DNA in the bedroom, no physical DNA tying Brendan to the murder. He really seems like a good-natured person to me. He mentioned in passing that some of the details were borrowed from Kiss the Girls.
Nirider argued (and the 7th circuit court agreed) that he was fed several pieces of information (like the hood latch, stuff happening in the garage) that he was errant about. Colborn should have filed a report on the witness statement at the very least.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Did you read the filings that Zellner made in the appeal attempts, where she presented her "new evidence?" I was just curious how it read to a man of the law. It seemed pretty compelling to me, a layman, but apparently the appeals court didn't think so.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I read the one submitted in September. The problem I saw was that the information on Bobby Dassey was turned over, but late and in a format that Avery’s lawyers couldn’t open. In theory they could have gotten the proprietary software they needed, but they were deep in trial prep and you can understand them not doing so based on the report and in the fact that they had already lost on third party liability.
So Zellner has to choose whether this is a Brady violation by the prosecutors or ineffective assistance of defense counsel. And it’s kind of in a gray area in between.
The additional bullet testing faces a similar problem it seems that type of testing was probably available to the defense if they had chosen to pursue it
The Avery case is tough. It’s clear that there were major #### ups by the prosecution, but it’s also true that I haven’t really seen a satisfactory explanation for Avery’s blood in the RAV-4.
The defense faced a tough choice Jurues generally do respond to who tells the best story But when you commit to something like that you end up having to essentially prove a case against the police Which puts a much higher burden on the defense
I never look at these things in terms of knowing if someone is guilty or innocent. I think I would have had a reasonable doubt. I’m not sure the things that give me those doubts rise to Constitutuonal violations.
For Brendan Dassey, I think the conviction should have been vacated. Unfortunately, the appellate court disagreed with me and SCOTUS denied cert. And Brendan really only had those two bases (involuntary confession and grossly ineffective assistance of counsel) to work with.
her burnt remains in Avery's pit is not "physical evidence" that would corroborate the smell of her burning body.....?
if Avery premeditated this crime (which I believe he did for some time)....he very easily could have had that bedroom setup/prepared for what was going to happen....meaning large tarps or whatever everywhere covering up the bed, the floor, everything in the room....he does whatever he needs to do....rolls everything up in tarps and goes and burns everything....tarps and all...I can EASILY see how there would be no DNA in the bedroom....whether he transports her elsewhere, etc...who knows, but just because there is no DNA in the bedroom is not a deal breaker...
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if we take away Dassey's confession and the details that came out of that....(and any other comments he made)....the ONLY thing we really know is that TH's remains were eventually burned....we don't know what happened prior to that....
so if the burnt remains, the RAV on the property, the blood in the RAV (TH's and Avery's), Avery's "sweat" on the latch, and the key in Avery's bedroom is what you have....then I would think that is where the "physical evidence" would lead you....
I think it is pretty easy at this point with the slant of the two seasons to try and come up with a million other different theories and possibilities....none of which it seems will ever have proof enough to say this is 100% for sure EXACTLY how it happened....so Zellner and the defense are hoping that if they prove it didn't happen EXACTLY the way the prosecution initially said it did, that should be enough for reasonable doubt and he should be released.....just not sure they will get there....it feels like she is grasping for straws a little...(btw it also seems like every "expert" she brings in makes sure they say what they think she wants to hear and go where she wants to lead them)....I realize her job is not to necessarily find out who did it....but outside of that I am not sure anything gets reversed...
so if the burnt remains, the RAV on the property, the blood in the RAV (TH's and Avery's), Avery's "sweat" on the latch, and the key in Avery's bedroom is what you have....then I would think that is where the "physical evidence" would lead you....
I think it is pretty easy at this point with the slant of the two seasons to try and come up with a million other different theories and possibilities....none of which it seems will ever have proof enough to say this is 100% for sure EXACTLY how it happened....so Zellner and the defense are hoping that if they prove it didn't happen EXACTLY the way the prosecution initially said it did, that should be enough for reasonable doubt and he should be released.....just not sure they will get there....it feels like she is grasping for straws a little...(btw it also seems like every "expert" she brings in makes sure they say what they think she wants to hear and go where she wants to lead them)....I realize her job is not to necessarily find out who did it....but outside of that I am not sure anything gets reversed...
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parrot
Footballguy
Just a few problems here, the first of which is taking anything MaM/Zellner say at face value...
- A Rav4 was spotted. It wasn't Halbach's. It was a different color and had holes in the windows.
https://i.imgur.com/UUgzXZM.png
- Colborn wasn't on duty on the 4th per trial records. No one "takes the call"; the witness claimed to have talked to Colborn at a Cenex station, but this was 10 years later after having seen MaM. Another officer called in from that Cenex inquiring about the missing person poster and asking about the details. So it's likely that it wasn't Colborn that the witness talked to. Colborn though had issued the guy a DUI in the past though so that's why he may have looked familiar to him.
- Colborn's call to dispatch confirming the plate number was on the 3rd, not the 4th.
- None of it was "withheld from the defense" since Rahmlow never made an affidavit until after MaM came out.
Seriously, if you're going to engage in hyperbole like " the most obscene miscarriage of justice I've ever seen" you should at least have a passing handle on the facts.
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Patrick Bateman
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
Patrick Bateman
Footballguy
The cult of Shuke. Some things never change. How many years now? I've been here in one way, shape or form since 2004. Crazy.
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
yeah it's impossible to think that a criminal would plan things out ahead of time....
gruecd
Footballguy
As someone who's from the same small town as TH and whose sister was a close friend of hers, I hope he rots in hell.
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ren hoek
Footballguy
gruecd
Footballguy
gruecd
Footballguy
Further, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who can actually defend that inbred POS is just as bad as he is.
Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
People forming these strong opinions based off this ridiculously one-sided and downright deceptive documentary make me sad. It's kind of a microcosm of society and our country as a whole. So many people making bold statements based on so little knowledge. And at the core of the problem is media and entertainment which plays people like puppets. Everything is such a huge damn conspiracy according to some of you. Rather than thinking critically and contemplating that you likely don't know the whole story, people fall for this crap. Take one minute and think of all the possibilities of what the documentary didn't show you. Then you might be able to comprehend how an entire state of lawmakers, police, jurors, and prosecutors, aren't actually evil. They just had more info than you. And when you're done thinking about that, extrapolate that to just about anything in life that you take other people's word for.
JShare87
Footballguy
Nothing wrong with having an open mind. Not picking a side, but I think it’s okay to formulate an opinion based on some facts the documentary presented. Is the show biased? Absolutely. However, being close-minded to the possibility that Avery and Dassey are innocent is just as bad as assuming they’re 100% innocent. If anything, this documentary sheds a light on the possibility of corruption within law enforcement and government.
Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
Any documentary that leaves out huge, mind-changing facts is going to make people conclude conspiracy and corruption. And having an open mind is precisely what I'm referring to. Considering the things you don't know is what helps people to either seek out more information, or if they decide not to do so, then to refrain from holding such a loud uniformed opinion. But unfortunately that's not the way of today's world. People eat this stuff right up and then ruin others' lives over fractional knowledge. This one-sided documentary created a circus show that went all the way to requesting pardons from the President. And the President gave it the time of day. It blows my mind how quickly people make conclusions and become outraged over such an incomplete picture.
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Just curious what huge facts you are referring to from MAM? Mind you, I haven't seen S2 yet, starting that tonight.
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