Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (2 Viewers)

[Billy Bats]

OK, I stand corrected. I just read the transcripts. The flattened bullet could not be attributed to a specific gun.

Just to be clear, there are two bullets; exhibits 276, and 277. 276 could only be matched to a specific model of gun, 277 was matched to a single specific gun, the one in Steven Avery's bedroom. This was also the fragment with Halbach's DNA on it.

Can you provide a source for that statement? Nothing I've read has said any bullet (at least the one with her DNA on it) was proven 100% to be from Avery's gun.The link I provided earlier says no.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/making-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-7236406

At the time Wisconsin State Crime Lab gun expert William Newhouse could not testify that a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage was shot from a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom

 

[Billy Bats]

OK, I stand corrected. I just read the transcripts. The flattened bullet could not be attributed to a specific gun.

And I thought I read somewhere that Tadych also had a .22 riffle

He did, he was coincidentally trying to sell a .22 after Teresa was murdered.

 

[Dickies]

OK, I stand corrected. I just read the transcripts. The flattened bullet could not be attributed to a specific gun.

And I thought I read somewhere that Tadych also had a .22 riffle

Which he was actively trying to sell immediately after Halbach was killed.

 

[AAABatteries]

LOL - [SIZE=11pt]https://m.facebook.com/OkDumbass/photos/a.320972894658271.77498.320968344658726/944624815626406/?type=3[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt](sorry if a honda)[/SIZE]

 

[parasaurolophus]

Uh, OJ killed his ex-wife for sleeping with other men. Spector killed a woman while drunk for spurning his advances. Both men were rich, entitled and probably had a god complex. Avery had none of those traits or privileges.

He never killed before. He wasn't committing a crime of passion. It wasn't revenge. It wasn't for gain. What was the motive? He had women, he had family, he had a life and he had a HUGE payday coming.

And you think he up and murdered because he had a screw loose? I think he's got several screws loose, but I don't see one that points to him flying his personal plane into the side of a mountain.

How about Aaron Hernandez? Guy murdered people one month before his huge payday was coming.You mentioned before that Avery just had to keep his nose clean and not commit a felony, rape or murder and he had a huge payday(which btw was not guaranteed as he still had to win and likely face lots of appeals but I concede he was going to get at least a decent amount of change via likely settlement since he got 400k without any leverage).

He crossed felony off the list real quick. It is not debated that he had two rifles that were his hanging over his bed. These weren't planted by police. They weren't some vast multi-county,multi-agency conspiracy. They were his. That's a felony.

Sorry, it's been a few weeks since I watched. I don't recall the series belaboring this point about him having rifles being a felony. I don't recall it at all, honestly. Why couldn't he have rifles? He was exonerated from the rape case I thought. What was his other felony conviction?

Ah, I think this felony is related to him running his cousin off the road. Right?

Yes. I think he got 6 years for that. He had her at gunpoint. You know. Standard reaction for when you get in a dispute with a family member. You brang a gun and git in yer car and run her off the road. Then yous try and take her somewheres, but I didn't reckon she's gonna brang her kid. I'm just unlucky.

 

[parrot]

OK, I stand corrected. I just read the transcripts. The flattened bullet could not be attributed to a specific gun.

Just to be clear, there are two bullets; exhibits 276, and 277. 276 could only be matched to a specific model of gun, 277 was matched to a single specific gun, the one in Steven Avery's bedroom. This was also the fragment with Halbach's DNA on it.

Can you provide a source for that statement? Nothing I've read has said any bullet (at least the one with her DNA on it) was proven 100% to be from Avery's gun.The link I provided earlier says no.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/making-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-7236406

At the time Wisconsin State Crime Lab gun expert William Newhouse could not testify that a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage was shot from a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom

Trial transcripts, William Newhouse;

A. In this case, I was able to be more specific. And, in fact, because of markings on the bullet in State's Exhibit 277, I was able to conclude that this bullet had been fired from this specific gun.

Q. All right. So Exhibit 277 had been fired from Exhibit 247?

A. Yes, that's correct.

My understanding is this;

Bullet 1, Exhibit 276, is found in the crack in the garage. It is matched to being fired from a Glenfield .22 but not necessarily Avery's Glenfield .22. It shows no DNA.

Bullet 2, Exhibit 277, is found under a standing toolbox in the garage. It is matched by Newhouse specifically to the rifle found in Avery's bedroom. It also has traces of Halbach's DNA.

 

[cockroach]

And the only "evidence" that there was a frame up is simply the possibility of a frame up that several agencies including the FBI would have had to have been in on said frame up and not even a shred of email communication, letter, note, etc of discussion of said frame up has ever been presented.

The memo of Fassbender telling Culhane to put TH in the garage or trailer? If you think the only evidence of a frame is the possibility of a frame.... well, frankly I think you have your head in the sand.

 

[parrot]

And the only "evidence" that there was a frame up is simply the possibility of a frame up that several agencies including the FBI would have had to have been in on said frame up and not even a shred of email communication, letter, note, etc of discussion of said frame up has ever been presented.

The memo of Fassbender telling Culhane to put TH in the garage or trailer? If you think the only evidence of a frame is the possibility of a frame.... well, frankly I think you have your head in the sand.

Do you think in other murder trials, where there is no frame, they try to use DNA evidence to put people where their working theory of the crime says they were? I'm guessing they probably do.

 

[Apple Juice]

Uh, OJ killed his ex-wife for sleeping with other men. Spector killed a woman while drunk for spurning his advances. Both men were rich, entitled and probably had a god complex. Avery had none of those traits or privileges.

He never killed before. He wasn't committing a crime of passion. It wasn't revenge. It wasn't for gain. What was the motive? He had women, he had family, he had a life and he had a HUGE payday coming.

And you think he up and murdered because he had a screw loose? I think he's got several screws loose, but I don't see one that points to him flying his personal plane into the side of a mountain.

How about Aaron Hernandez? Guy murdered people one month before his huge payday was coming.You mentioned before that Avery just had to keep his nose clean and not commit a felony, rape or murder and he had a huge payday(which btw was not guaranteed as he still had to win and likely face lots of appeals but I concede he was going to get at least a decent amount of change via likely settlement since he got 400k without any leverage).

He crossed felony off the list real quick. It is not debated that he had two rifles that were his hanging over his bed. These weren't planted by police. They weren't some vast multi-county,multi-agency conspiracy. They were his. That's a felony.

Sorry, it's been a few weeks since I watched. I don't recall the series belaboring this point about him having rifles being a felony. I don't recall it at all, honestly. Why couldn't he have rifles? He was exonerated from the rape case I thought. What was his other felony conviction?

Ah, I think this felony is related to him running his cousin off the road. Right?

Yes. I think he got 6 years for that. He had her at gunpoint.You know. Standard reaction for when you get in a dispute with a family member. You brang a gun and git in yer car and run her off the road. Then yous try and take her somewheres, but I didn't reckon she's gonna brang her kid. I'm just unlucky.

I read an interesting thread on Reddit where people who lived in Manitowoc county talked about what it's like. One woman who grew up there said it's very class divided - upper upper middle class and working class. Her family was upper upper middle class, and even in those circles, gossip and judgement of people was rampant.

She implied that everyone knew a lot about everyone who lived there, and that nasty rumors carried a LOT of weight. She said while she obviously didn't condone it, she understood Steven's reaction to what was being said about him and saw a lot of the same kind of flying-off-the-handle reactions to things like that. Just found that interesting.

 

[cockroach]

And the only "evidence" that there was a frame up is simply the possibility of a frame up that several agencies including the FBI would have had to have been in on said frame up and not even a shred of email communication, letter, note, etc of discussion of said frame up has ever been presented.

The memo of Fassbender telling Culhane to put TH in the garage or trailer? If you think the only evidence of a frame is the possibility of a frame.... well, frankly I think you have your head in the sand.

Do you think in other murder trials, where there is no frame, they try to use DNA evidence to put people where their working theory of the crime says they were? I'm guessing they probably do.

She's a forensic scientist... I'd say that's highly unscientific and unethical. She should report her findings without "trying" to fit it into any specific scenario.... but you know what? I'm guessing they probably do too. I'm just not sure it's legal or ethical.

 

[parrot]

And the only "evidence" that there was a frame up is simply the possibility of a frame up that several agencies including the FBI would have had to have been in on said frame up and not even a shred of email communication, letter, note, etc of discussion of said frame up has ever been presented.

The memo of Fassbender telling Culhane to put TH in the garage or trailer? If you think the only evidence of a frame is the possibility of a frame.... well, frankly I think you have your head in the sand.

Do you think in other murder trials, where there is no frame, they try to use DNA evidence to put people where their working theory of the crime says they were? I'm guessing they probably do.

She's a forensic scientist... I'd say that's highly unscientific and unethical. She should report her findings without "trying" to fit it into any specific scenario.... but you know what? I'm guessing they probably do too. I'm just not sure it's legal or ethical.

I agree she should report her findings in a straightforward manner, but she has to know WHAT she's looking for. It makes perfect sense to me that the investigators would give her some direction and then she sees if the evidence fits. You can't just DNA test everything in a case like this. Focusing your attention on specific areas is not tantamount to fixing your results.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

OK, I stand corrected. I just read the transcripts. The flattened bullet could not be attributed to a specific gun.

Just to be clear, there are two bullets; exhibits 276, and 277. 276 could only be matched to a specific model of gun, 277 was matched to a single specific gun, the one in Steven Avery's bedroom. This was also the fragment with Halbach's DNA on it.

Can you provide a source for that statement? Nothing I've read has said any bullet (at least the one with her DNA on it) was proven 100% to be from Avery's gun.The link I provided earlier says no.http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/making-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-7236406

At the time Wisconsin State Crime Lab gun expert William Newhouse could not testify that a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage was shot from a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom

Trial transcripts, William Newhouse;

A. In this case, I was able to be more specific. And, in fact, because of markings on the bullet in State's Exhibit 277, I was able to conclude that this bullet had been fired from this specific gun.

Q. All right. So Exhibit 277 had been fired from Exhibit 247?

A. Yes, that's correct.

My understanding is this;

Bullet 1, Exhibit 276, is found in the crack in the garage. It is matched to being fired from a Glenfield .22 but not necessarily Avery's Glenfield .22. It shows no DNA.

Bullet 2, Exhibit 277, is found under a standing toolbox in the garage. It is matched by Newhouse specifically to the rifle found in Avery's bedroom. It also has traces of Halbach's DNA.

I'm on my phone and don't want to google stuff. Going from what I think I've read...

At the Avery trial, there was no evidence that the flattened bullet came from a specific gun, only from the make and model.

In the Dassey trial, there was evidence that the bullet with Halbach's DNA came from the specific gun, but on cross-examination, the expert backtracked quite a bit.

 

[bucksoh]

Phone records of TH from Cingular posted on Reddit, did anyone see these and what do you think of them.

 

[Das Boot]

OK, I stand corrected. I just read the transcripts. The flattened bullet could not be attributed to a specific gun.

Just to be clear, there are two bullets; exhibits 276, and 277. 276 could only be matched to a specific model of gun, 277 was matched to a single specific gun, the one in Steven Avery's bedroom. This was also the fragment with Halbach's DNA on it.

Can you provide a source for that statement? Nothing I've read has said any bullet (at least the one with her DNA on it) was proven 100% to be from Avery's gun.The link I provided earlier says no.http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/making-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-7236406

At the time Wisconsin State Crime Lab gun expert William Newhouse could not testify that a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage was shot from a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom

Trial transcripts, William Newhouse;

A. In this case, I was able to be more specific. And, in fact, because of markings on the bullet in State's Exhibit 277, I was able to conclude that this bullet had been fired from this specific gun.

Q. All right. So Exhibit 277 had been fired from Exhibit 247?

A. Yes, that's correct.

My understanding is this;

Bullet 1, Exhibit 276, is found in the crack in the garage. It is matched to being fired from a Glenfield .22 but not necessarily Avery's Glenfield .22. It shows no DNA.

Bullet 2, Exhibit 277, is found under a standing toolbox in the garage. It is matched by Newhouse specifically to the rifle found in Avery's bedroom. It also has traces of Halbach's DNA.

I'm on my phone and don't want to google stuff. Going from what I think I've read...

At the Avery trial, there was no evidence that the flattened bullet came from a specific gun, only from the make and model.

In the Dassey trial, there was evidence that the bullet with Halbach's DNA came from the specific gun, but on cross-examination, the expert backtracked quite a bit.

http://forensicoutreach.com/6-remarkable-ways-guns-can-be-linked-to-a-crime-scene/

From the above article, I only see one way that the physical characteristics of a bullet could be matched to a specific gun.

With a flattened bullet, such as was found in Avery's garage, there would be no striations to examine.

Thus I don't think it's possible to match a flattened bullet to a specific firearm.

 

[cockroach]

OK, I stand corrected. I just read the transcripts. The flattened bullet could not be attributed to a specific gun.

Just to be clear, there are two bullets; exhibits 276, and 277. 276 could only be matched to a specific model of gun, 277 was matched to a single specific gun, the one in Steven Avery's bedroom. This was also the fragment with Halbach's DNA on it.

Can you provide a source for that statement? Nothing I've read has said any bullet (at least the one with her DNA on it) was proven 100% to be from Avery's gun.The link I provided earlier says no.http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/making-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-7236406

At the time Wisconsin State Crime Lab gun expert William Newhouse could not testify that a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage was shot from a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom

Trial transcripts, William Newhouse;

A. In this case, I was able to be more specific. And, in fact, because of markings on the bullet in State's Exhibit 277, I was able to conclude that this bullet had been fired from this specific gun.

Q. All right. So Exhibit 277 had been fired from Exhibit 247?

A. Yes, that's correct.

My understanding is this;

Bullet 1, Exhibit 276, is found in the crack in the garage. It is matched to being fired from a Glenfield .22 but not necessarily Avery's Glenfield .22. It shows no DNA.

Bullet 2, Exhibit 277, is found under a standing toolbox in the garage. It is matched by Newhouse specifically to the rifle found in Avery's bedroom. It also has traces of Halbach's DNA.

I'm on my phone and don't want to google stuff. Going from what I think I've read...

At the Avery trial, there was no evidence that the flattened bullet came from a specific gun, only from the make and model.

In the Dassey trial, there was evidence that the bullet with Halbach's DNA came from the specific gun, but on cross-examination, the expert backtracked quite a bit.

http://forensicoutreach.com/6-remarkable-ways-guns-can-be-linked-to-a-crime-scene/

From the above article, I only see one way that the physical characteristics of a bullet could be matched to a specific gun.

With a flattened bullet, such as we as found in Avery's garage, there would be no striations to examine.

Thus I don't think it's possible to match a flattened bullet to a specific firearm.

They had 2... one had the marks on it

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/42zj1f/facts_about_the_bullet_fragments_found_in_the/

 

[Das Boot]

I'm going to go out on a limb (not really) and say that this is probably a typical comment you would hear about Steve Avery from a long time Manitowoc resident:

"“Look, we lived this whole thing like a juror,” Suszanne Fox, who lives not far from here, told me as she ate a burger at the Fat Seagull. “He was guilty as sin.” "

The quote is from this 1/28/2016 article : Making a Murderer’ Town’s Answer to Netflix Series: You Don’t Know

 

[Das Boot]

Here's what Brendan Dassey looks like now.

He's been incarcerated for 10 years now, due to his thoroughly convincing "confession" to Manitowoc's finest.

:(

 

[shuke]

They had 2... one had the marks on it

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/42zj1f/facts_about_the_bullet_fragments_found_in_the/

Thanks. This pretty much seals the deal for me.

It's interesting that the way the documentary portrayed it, at least the way I remember, is that there was one flattened bullet with DNA that could not be linked with a specific gun.

• Exhibit 277 in SA trial (113 in BD trial), bullet fragment FL, found under the compressor, the more intact one, 11 of 16 land and groove impressions left, with TH's DNA

 

[shuke]

Here's what Brendan Dassey looks like now.

He's been incarcerated for 10 years now, due to his thoroughly convincing "confession" to Manitowoc's finest.

:(

Curious, did you read the confession, or just going off of what you saw on the show?

 

[Das Boot]

Here's what Brendan Dassey looks like now.

He's been incarcerated for 10 years now, due to his thoroughly convincing "confession" to Manitowoc's finest.

:(

Curious, did you read the confession, or just going off of what you saw on the show?

Do you mean this one ?

 

[shuke]

Phone records of TH from Cingular posted on Reddit, did anyone see these and what do you think of them.

I'm a moron when it comes to navigating reddit. Can you post a link please?

 

[shuke]

Here's what Brendan Dassey looks like now.

He's been incarcerated for 10 years now, due to his thoroughly convincing "confession" to Manitowoc's finest.

:(

Curious, did you read the confession, or just going off of what you saw on the show?

Do you mean this one ?

Sure, that's a good place to start.

 

[cockroach]

Here's what Brendan Dassey looks like now.

He's been incarcerated for 10 years now, due to his thoroughly convincing "confession" to Manitowoc's finest.

:(

Too bad that plea deal for 15 yrs that Kachinski talked about never existed... he'd be nearing the home stretch.

 

[Das Boot]

Here's what Brendan Dassey looks like now.

He's been incarcerated for 10 years now, due to his thoroughly convincing "confession" to Manitowoc's finest.

:(

Curious, did you read the confession, or just going off of what you saw on the show?

Do you mean this one ?

Sure, that's a good place to start.

Yes I've read it, I hope everyone reads it.

It makes my skin crawl to read that, it's disgusting. It's beyond disgusting. I can't believe a cop, or any human being, could do what they did to that kid.

They are doing this to a 16 year old kid with an IQ of 70.

Whose supposed defense lawyer, Kachinsky, has thrown to the wolves, practically literally.

This is a day or two after the guy hired by the Kachinsky has extracted a detailed "confession" from Brendan. Kind of weird thing for a defense lawyer to do, but that's what happened.

Then Kachinsky hands Brendan over to the cops, after Brendan has been groomed by hours of confession, complete with drawings that were coaxed out of him of how Teresa was chained to the bed.

Then the interview/confession...

...the blatant leading questions by the cops.

... the constant contradictory answers from Brenday (to previously "confessed information"), followed by the interviewing cops saying "No, you're not telling the truth, that's now what you said before, isn't it true that xxx yyy zzz is what happened?"

Followed by Brendan saying "Yep, xxx yyy zzz is what happened".

I'd suggest to anyone to reread pages 767 through 770 in the above pdf link of the transcript of the interview.

Do you seriously think that sounds like an accurate description from a kid that had sex with a woman?

Or does it sound more like a "bags of sand" made up description?

In all seriousness, if anyone can watch the MAM documentary episode that shows video excerpts from the above transcript where you can see the body language and dejected disposition of Brendan - reminder: 16 year old kid, IQ of 70, defense lawyer is a scum weasel that has 100% screwed Brendan over, but Brendan doesn't have the mental capacity to even realize that, the kid has no clue what he's even doing there, let alone the consequences of implicating himself in a murder...

...and the approach the cops were taking with him and techniques they were using, then read the full transcript (the transcript to me is 10x worse than what was shown in the documentary)...

...and still believe that there's a shred of credibility to Brendan's "confession" (you'll have to specify which facts of his confession you are using, there were multiple interations)

... and then realize that there's virtually no physical evidence that supports any of his versions of his confessions...

I honestly don't know what to say.

I don't know what happened to Teresa and who did it, no one here does.

But of all the things that don't add up, Brendan Dassey's confession is at the top of my list of things I don't believe about this case.

And once anyone else reaches that same conclusion, that Brendan's confession isn't worth the paper it's written on, the dominoes start falling in regards to being confident that Steven Avery is guilty.

He may be guilty, who knows, I don't, hopefully we'll find out with certainty some day.

But I can't conceive of having anywhere near that certainty now... which is another way of saying that is an abundance of reasonable doubt as to whether Steven Avery murdered Teresa Halbach.

BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if I've made some mistakes in what I've written above, and I'm very happy for anyone to point them out so I can correct them. I want to be factual and try to reach my own best effort conclusion as to Steve and Brendan's guilt or innocence rather than use incorrect info to try and promote a particular conclusion.

I just want to see the vermin that killed Teresa face justice, and anyone falsely accused to be vidicated, and anyone that abused or abdicated their professional authority and responsibility to be identified and appropriately punished as well.

 

[cockroach]

They had 2... one had the marks on it

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/42zj1f/facts_about_the_bullet_fragments_found_in_the/

Thanks. This pretty much seals the deal for me.

It's interesting that the way the documentary portrayed it, at least the way I remember, is that there was one flattened bullet with DNA that could not be linked with a specific gun.

• Exhibit 277 in SA trial (113 in BD trial), bullet fragment FL, found under the compressor, the more intact one, 11 of 16 land and groove impressions left, with TH's DNA

Both bullets were found 5 months after the crime. At least one of these bullets was found by Lenk. The one with TH's DNA had the DNA test invalidated by Sherry Culahne's DNA in the control sample. And there was so little of TH's DNA on this bullet (this non blood DNA on a bullet? hmmmmm) there was none left to do a scientifically valid test. Really man? There's all kind of reasonable doubt there.

The only trace of TH's DNA outside of the blood in her car is on that bullet that was found 5 months after the crime, and there's not even enough of it for two tests? Seems highly unlikely to me.

 

[cockroach]

I'm going back and watching Paradise Lost for the first time since it came out on VHS... lots of parallels. Mostly in the style of film-making... but also in the content of the story as well. Gonna have to watch Thin Blue Line again too.

 

[bigbottom]

Like I said previously always felt Averys' lawyers more frustrated with the process then whether an innocent man in jail. Just the vibe I get.

Strang?

Sounds to me like he probably leans pretty far in the "not guilty" direction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ekSO2WBvE&feature=youtu.be

The above interview with Strang by the Irish guy was great... here's another good one, in print though:

http://christandpopculture.com/sleeping-at-night-making-a-murderer-attorney-dean-strang-on-his-most-popular-case-and-what-it-was-like-to-lose-it/?utm_content=buffer89c97&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

A highlight:

CaPC: In one of your final interviews for the documentary, you say you almost wish Avery were guilty. Would you elaborate on that statement?

Strang: I dont wish it for his sake, obviously. I dont wish it for the Halbachs sake or Steven Averys sake. In a sense, that statement was and is a self-protective wish.

Steven Avery came to me with the only money he ever was going to have, and together the two of us [strang and Jerry Buting] took his case. He put his faith in us; he put his trust in us. He put all his chips on us. Then I lost his case. And the consequences of my losing his case were, for him, the most serious consequences Wisconsin law allowshe received a slow death sentence. He received life in prison without parole. As things stand, hes simply stuck in a cage, waiting for the biological moment of death.

Yet, I have to go sleep at night. I have to go on with my life. I have to continue to do my work. I owe my wife, my family, my friends, the obligation of being present to themloving them and giving them what they deserve. So theres a self-protective quality to saying: I dont know that I can carry this around if I believe that theres an innocent man sitting in a cage because I was the second best lawyer in the room. Its a very narrow self-protective hope that I was expressing. It was honestprobably a little too self-revealing.

This guy is really an exceptional person.

 

[mr roboto]

Yeah Strang truly think, feels, considers. Impressive.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Here's what Brendan Dassey looks like now.

He's been incarcerated for 10 years now, due to his thoroughly convincing "confession" to Manitowoc's finest.

:(

Too bad that plea deal for 15 yrs that Kachinski talked about never existed... he'd be nearing the home stretch.

I think that is why he agreed to everything thrown out there. I think he was guilty of something. Probably just being there at the tail end. I think his lawyer thought he was guilty and tried like crazy to get him a plea deal. I think he convinced dassey to go along with this plan.

Poor kid didn't even know what hit him.

I also still don't understand how his lawyer can get dismissed for his conduct, but what his lawyer allowed was still admissible? I wouldn't care if it was an adult, but it was a 16 year old kid. I definitely feel he has a right to some sort of advocate.

 

[bucksoh]

Phone records of TH from Cingular posted on Reddit, did anyone see these and what do you think of them.

I'm a moron when it comes to navigating reddit. Can you post a link please?

I don't know how to link it from my phone but it is on the first page on Reddit of mam.

Zellner's right-the answer lies in the phone records.

 

[Joe T]

I think this is the link you are looking for regarding phone records:

http://imgur.com/V4l03nf

and this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/435kul/zellners_rightthe_answer_lies_in_the_phone_records/

 

[Joe T]

I can't remember now, but did the brother or ex-boyfriend explain why they were deleting voice messages? It feels like tampering with evidence, but not really sure.

 

[mr roboto]

I think this is the link you are looking for regarding phone records:

http://imgur.com/V4l03nf

and this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/435kul/zellners_rightthe_answer_lies_in_the_phone_records/

From a post in that Reddit thread, this seems to be the conclusion these people think comes from examining the phone records...

Am I to infer from this that the ex boyfriend kept out certain calls from his report to the police and more ridiculous, the police actually based a document in court from what Hillegas gave to them?

Or this...

[]SnoBaby 13 points 14 hours ago

I agree that Kratz didn't use Hillegas (& friends) printout in court....but investigators used it...and it led them right to Avery.

Whatever Kratz (or anyone else) may have come across when they got their hands on the actual, complete records, wasn't going to deter them at that point from the notion that Avery was their man (just like any evidence pointing to Gregory Allen didn't deter anyone back in 1985).

 

[shuke]

I think this is the link you are looking for regarding phone records:

http://imgur.com/V4l03nf

and this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/435kul/zellners_rightthe_answer_lies_in_the_phone_records/

So what is this supposed to show?

 

[shuke]

I can't remember now, but did the brother or ex-boyfriend explain why they were deleting voice messages? It feels like tampering with evidence, but not really sure.

I don't think it was ever proven who deleted the VMs, right?

 

[parrot]

OK, I stand corrected. I just read the transcripts. The flattened bullet could not be attributed to a specific gun.

Just to be clear, there are two bullets; exhibits 276, and 277. 276 could only be matched to a specific model of gun, 277 was matched to a single specific gun, the one in Steven Avery's bedroom. This was also the fragment with Halbach's DNA on it.

Can you provide a source for that statement? Nothing I've read has said any bullet (at least the one with her DNA on it) was proven 100% to be from Avery's gun.The link I provided earlier says no.http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/making-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-7236406

At the time Wisconsin State Crime Lab gun expert William Newhouse could not testify that a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage was shot from a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom

Trial transcripts, William Newhouse;

A. In this case, I was able to be more specific. And, in fact, because of markings on the bullet in State's Exhibit 277, I was able to conclude that this bullet had been fired from this specific gun.

Q. All right. So Exhibit 277 had been fired from Exhibit 247?

A. Yes, that's correct.

My understanding is this;

Bullet 1, Exhibit 276, is found in the crack in the garage. It is matched to being fired from a Glenfield .22 but not necessarily Avery's Glenfield .22. It shows no DNA.

Bullet 2, Exhibit 277, is found under a standing toolbox in the garage. It is matched by Newhouse specifically to the rifle found in Avery's bedroom. It also has traces of Halbach's DNA.

I'm on my phone and don't want to google stuff. Going from what I think I've read...

At the Avery trial, there was no evidence that the flattened bullet came from a specific gun, only from the make and model.

In the Dassey trial, there was evidence that the bullet with Halbach's DNA came from the specific gun, but on cross-examination, the expert backtracked quite a bit.

Again 2 bullets, 276 & 277.

276 is the flattened bullet, and yes, it was matched only to make and model.

The second bullet, 277, was matched to the specific gun, and showed Halbach's DNA. This was all presented in the Avery trial. The quote in my post above is from Newhouse's testimony in the Avery trial. Here's more;

20 Q. All right. Is there -- Does that mean it could21 not have been fired from any other gun?

22 A. It does.

23 Q. The opinion that Exhibit 277, item designation

24 FL, was fired from Exhibit 247, the Marlin

25 Glenfield, Model 60, .22 caliber rifle; do you

1 hold that opinion to a reasonable degree of

2 scientific certainty?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. The opinion that it could not have been fired

5 from any other gun; do you hold that opinion to a

6 reasonable degree of scientific certainty?

7 A. I do.

I skimmed the cross but didn't really read it. If he backtracked from his findings I would be curious to see it.

 

[Joe T]

I think this is the link you are looking for regarding phone records:

http://imgur.com/V4l03nf

and this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/435kul/zellners_rightthe_answer_lies_in_the_phone_records/

So what is this supposed to show?

The calls to and from Teresa Halbach's phone the day of the murder.

 

[bucksoh]

I think this is the link you are looking for regarding phone records:

http://imgur.com/V4l03nf

and this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/435kul/zellners_rightthe_answer_ylies_in_the_phone_records/

So what is this supposed to show?

Who is using her phone for 1m26s the next day? Who were they calling and why was this left out.

 

[bucksoh]

I can't remember now, but did the brother or ex-boyfriend explain why they were deleting voice messages? It feels like tampering with evidence, but not really sure.

I don't think it was ever proven who deleted the VMs, right?

Why not? Do u think they weren't tampering with evidence?

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think this is the link you are looking for regarding phone records:

http://imgur.com/V4l03nf

and this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/435kul/zellners_rightthe_answer_ylies_in_the_phone_records/

So what is this supposed to show?

Who is using her phone for 1m26s the next day? Who were they calling and why was this left out.

That was an incoming call.

 

[Loan Sharks]

Also to put the calls into context.... the two calls came around 2:30-2:40 and their appointment was scheduled at 2pm.... ????... I don't see what *67 accomplishes or why it's inherently suspicious. It in no way aids him in this crime... (is this where you chime in with his IQ and say he's stupid and that's why he did it?)

Calling someone and not wanting them to know who is calling is suspicious. I'm not saying it proves anything, but it's suspicious.

Well then why have it as a free service anybody can use at anytime if it's simply a suspicious act? Makes no sense. It's there for a reason and that reason isn't to trick people into letting you murder them.

It's an act of hiding. Not something that helps implicate you of murder unless the body found behind your bedroom.

It's also an act to get somebody to answer the phone immediately when you know they might be dodging your call. It was a free service anybody could use and millions of us used it. To imply it is nefarious in nature is a stretch.

Don't thinking using *67 as popular as you think.

I do. Especially with poor white trash. My hick in laws used it all the time. It was to the point that any time I saw "restricted number" on my phone I new it was some idiot on the line. No joke. The mindset of people who are jerks is that is everyone is avoiding them, because everyone IS avoiding them because they are jerks.

They would call and leave a message and if you don't call them back in 5 minutes they assume you are dodging them so they start bombing you with *67's to "catch you" answering the phone because you didn't know it was them.

Oh yeah *67 was like magic for idiots.

 

[Loan Sharks]

Also to put the calls into context.... the two calls came around 2:30-2:40 and their appointment was scheduled at 2pm.... ????... I don't see what *67 accomplishes or why it's inherently suspicious. It in no way aids him in this crime... (is this where you chime in with his IQ and say he's stupid and that's why he did it?)

Calling someone and not wanting them to know who is calling is suspicious. I'm not saying it proves anything, but it's suspicious.

Well then why have it as a free service anybody can use at anytime if it's simply a suspicious act? Makes no sense. It's there for a reason and that reason isn't to trick people into letting you murder them.

It's an act of hiding. Not something that helps implicate you of murder unless the body found behind your bedroom.

It's also an act to get somebody to answer the phone immediately when you know they might be dodging your call. It was a free service anybody could use and millions of us used it. To imply it is nefarious in nature is a stretch.

Don't thinking using *67 as popular as you think.

You're right. Probably only creepy guys who work at junkyards.

Bet most people have never used it.

Pretty sure every HS kid in the late 90s/early 00s used to to prank call each other

yep, everyone who heard the Jerky Boys at least.

 

[Loan Sharks]

They had 2... one had the marks on it

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/42zj1f/facts_about_the_bullet_fragments_found_in_the/

Thanks. This pretty much seals the deal for me.

It's interesting that the way the documentary portrayed it, at least the way I remember, is that there was one flattened bullet with DNA that could not be linked with a specific gun.

• Exhibit 277 in SA trial (113 in BD trial), bullet fragment FL, found under the compressor, the more intact one, 11 of 16 land and groove impressions left, with TH's DNA

The bullet doesn't even matter to me. The idiot tech spit in the sample while handling other DNA of the victim with a couple of trainees with her and used the whole sample in one test.

Sorry, if the "good tech" can accidentally taint the car hood, the idiot blond ruined the sample and it is meaningless.

When faced with a 22 bullet going through a persons head in a garage full of junk bouncing across the floor and not getting a molecule of DNA on the floor as it bounces and comes to rests and the head splatters and or hits the ground with no blood in addition to being next to a bullet with no DNA on it, or some dumb ### ruined the sample. No contest she ruined the sample.

 

[shuke]

I can't remember now, but did the brother or ex-boyfriend explain why they were deleting voice messages? It feels like tampering with evidence, but not really sure.

I don't think it was ever proven who deleted the VMs, right?

Why not? Do u think they weren't tampering with evidence?

Why don't I think it was proven? Because I didn't see any evidence.

 

[Joe T]

I think when I combine all the issues I have about the case, my gut tells me that Avery and Brendan should be released.

Here are some of the issues:

1. Coerced confession from Brendan

2. Lenk and Coburn finding any evidence at all; anything they found should be thrown out (which happens to be all of the key evidence)

3. Coburn calling in the license plate a day or two before the car is found

4. Weird Pam lady finding the vehicle within 10 minutes of being on the property

5. Both the brother and ex-boyfriend hacking into Teresa's voicemail

If there were just one or two things that couldn't be explained, I think I'd be okay with the verdict. But the evidence that is compromised or questionable is overwhelming.

 

[Joe T]

I'm looking forward to the Dateline update tonight, but my guess is there will be nothing really "new" on the show.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think when I combine all the issues I have about the case, my gut tells me that Avery and Brendan should be released.

Here are some of the issues:

1. Coerced confession from Brendan

2. Lenk and Coburn finding any evidence at all; anything they found should be thrown out (which happens to be all of the key evidence)

3. Coburn calling in the license plate a day or two before the car is found

4. Weird Pam lady finding the vehicle within 10 minutes of being on the property

5. Both the brother and ex-boyfriend hacking into Teresa's voicemail

If there were just one or two things that couldn't be explained, I think I'd be okay with the verdict. But the evidence that is compromised or questionable is overwhelming.

Why do you say this? I know its popular opinion to say that they had substantial financial risk, but that simply isn't true for Lenk. Not even close.

1. He didnt even work at the department when avery was arrested in 1985.

2. The only thing that was proven for certain at all regarding him was that he told his subordinate in 2003 to write a report when the phone call from Brown County was brought to his attention. That report was confiscated by somebody else.

3. He was not a named party in the lawsuit. In fact as far as I know only Vogel and Kocourek were named.

 

[General Malaise]

I don't think it is all that crazy that somebody found a car in a junkyard full of cars that was hidden by a few logs. It's not like they found a Nazi train full of gold in a mountain.

HEY JIM, KNOW WHAT I FOUND IN A JUNK YARD?

NO, WHAT SAM?

A ####### CAR!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mr roboto]

Doesn't matter if Lenk himself was personally named for him to be motivated or directed by others in the department. Remember potentially the whole county govt had substantial reason to be concerned especially if the insurance company was unwilling to cover the loss from the civil suit.

 

[Joe T]

I think when I combine all the issues I have about the case, my gut tells me that Avery and Brendan should be released.

Here are some of the issues:

1. Coerced confession from Brendan

2. Lenk and Coburn finding any evidence at all; anything they found should be thrown out (which happens to be all of the key evidence)

3. Coburn calling in the license plate a day or two before the car is found

4. Weird Pam lady finding the vehicle within 10 minutes of being on the property

5. Both the brother and ex-boyfriend hacking into Teresa's voicemail

If there were just one or two things that couldn't be explained, I think I'd be okay with the verdict. But the evidence that is compromised or questionable is overwhelming.

Why do you say this? I know its popular opinion to say that they had substantial financial risk, but that simply isn't true for Lenk. Not even close.

1. He didnt even work at the department when avery was arrested in 1985.

2. The only thing that was proven for certain at all regarding him was that he told his subordinate in 2003 to write a report when the phone call from Brown County was brought to his attention. That report was confiscated by somebody else.

3. He was not a named party in the lawsuit. In fact as far as I know only Vogel and Kocourek were named.

Lenk and all of the Manitowoc county sherriffs had an obvious conflict of interest as was stated at the beginning of the investigation. His department was being sued even if it was not him directly.