Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Tarps

Which they then didn’t use when they “heaved” a bloody Halbach into the RAV-4?

its just weird to read all these theories of meticulous planning when the State’s evidence would suggest otherwise. 

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

He wasn't led on identifying the gun used to shoot her at all.   

Did Avery own an arsenal? Because otherwise I imagine he’d know what kind of gun the uncle who lived next door used. 

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Which they then didn’t use when they “heaved” a bloody Halbach into the RAV-4?

its just weird to read all these theories of meticulous planning when the State’s evidence would suggest otherwise. 

I believe he used tarps in the bedroom....I believe he also had her on them in the garage when he stabbed her and then shot her in the head...I do believe she was in them when placed in the RAV....and then tarps and all, her body, etc were burned....I think some sort of tarps were used and would help explain the lack of DNA in the bedroom, garage, and RAV...

in thinking like a criminal....that is what I would have done...

 

[Don't Noonan]

I believe he used tarps in the bedroom....I believe he also had her on them in the garage when he stabbed her and then shot her in the head...I do believe she was in them when placed in the RAV....and then tarps and all, her body, etc were burned....I think some sort of tarps were used and would help explain the lack of DNA in the bedroom, garage, and RAV...

in thinking like a criminal....that is what I would have done...

why put her in the car at all?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I believe he used tarps in the bedroom....I believe he also had her on them in the garage when he stabbed her and then shot her in the head...I do believe she was in them when placed in the RAV....and then tarps and all, her body, etc were burned....I think some sort of tarps were used and would help explain the lack of DNA in the bedroom, garage, and RAV...

in thinking like a criminal....that is what I would have done...

Her hair left a distinguishable blood stain in the RAV-4.  Seems inconsistent with a body wrapped in a tarp. 

But the larger point is that if you believe the State’s evidence, how does that show Avery planning the murder by thinking like a criminal?  He leaves the key in his bedroom?  He leaves an obvious contact blood stain from a wound on his finger in her car (I guess he’s smart enough to think of tarps but not gloves)?  He burns the body literally in his backyard?  

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

In Brendan's original confession, he confessed to cutting her throat.  Now she's supposed to have been stabbed in the stomach?  I'm only through S2e2 so far, is that referenced in Season 2 (the throat cutting part was mentioned for sure), or did that come from something not in the show? 

 

[ILUVBEER99]

I believe he used tarps in the bedroom....I believe he also had her on them in the garage when he stabbed her and then shot her in the head...I do believe she was in them when placed in the RAV....and then tarps and all, her body, etc were burned....I think some sort of tarps were used and would help explain the lack of DNA in the bedroom, garage, and RAV...

in thinking like a criminal....that is what I would have done...

You're thinking like Dexter...a character from a fictional TV show that doesn't exist in real life.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

why put her in the car at all?

So you don’t have to carry her and what she is wrapped in so far....

 

[Don't Noonan]

So you don’t have to carry her and what she is wrapped in so far....

makes more sense if she was killed away from the Avery property and driven there

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Her hair left a distinguishable blood stain in the RAV-4.  Seems inconsistent with a body wrapped in a tarp. 

But the larger point is that if you believe the State’s evidence, how does that show Avery planning the murder by thinking like a criminal?  He leaves the key in his bedroom?  He leaves an obvious contact blood stain from a wound on his finger in her car (I guess he’s smart enough to think of tarps but not gloves)?  He burns the body literally in his backyard?  

If you are referring to the blood on the inside of the backdoor of the RAV....they aren’t sure it was her hair...in fact in S2 they actually did a pretty good job dismissing the hair theory....it actually looked more like splatter off of an object (they used a hammer in S2) that had blood on it and was then pulled back in a swinging motion....I can’t speak to how intelligent of a criminal Avery is, all I can say is if I was planning on kidnapping and raping a young lady in a bedroom it’s pretty simple to think of laying down some tarps or something to limit the amount of possible physical evidence being left behind in the room....and then if you are going to kill her in a garage or something, I would have tarps there too to capture the blood....kind of like painters lay down tarps to prevent paint splatter from getting on carpets or rugs....its not rocket science...obviously he dropped the ball in his haste to hide the car and did not make sure it was wiped clean of his blood or her blood....he probably thought burning her immediately was the best option to get rid of her body quickly and easy...he has fires there all the time...he probably thought it would burn good enough that there wouldn’t be any “remains” that could be found....

 

[Stinkin Ref]

You're thinking like Dexter...a character from a fictional TV show that doesn't exist in real life.

Call it what you want....think of how many movies you see someone get killed and then they are wrapped and transported in a rug or blanket or whatever....tarps...whatever...painters use tarps to keep paint from getting all over the place....its the same concept, I don’t know why that is so difficult to understand....its not just a Dexter thing...

 

[Stinkin Ref]

makes more sense if she was killed away from the Avery property and driven there

Whatever....maybe....there is all kinds of speculation from all sides and people are talking conspiracy theories all over the place....crooked cops, planting evidence....other suspects etc...they all want to set up Avery....but yet I just lay out some simple theories in the other direction about how Avery may have done it if he did do it....and the Dexter comments start flying....I just feel he lured her there and had planned to do exactly what he did....and if so...he would plan ahead to try and not leave evidence behind....using tarps or something like tarps would help....if he was planning on raping her in the bedroom, he would have it set up already with them laid out etc...look I have no idea what happened, but if I was planning on raping and killing someone....I would have tarps everywhere especially under where I was going to rape her and then ultimately kill her....

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

If you are referring to the blood on the inside of the backdoor of the RAV....they aren’t sure it was her hair...in fact in S2 they actually did a pretty good job dismissing the hair theory....it actually looked more like splatter off of an object (they used a hammer in S2) that had blood on it and was then pulled back in a swinging motion....

Those are two different stains/patters. The hair stain was a large stain on the carpet area  of that hatch area. The likely cast-off pattern is on that back door itself. 

 

[ILUVBEER99]

Call it what you want....think of how many movies you see someone get killed and then they are wrapped and transported in a rug or blanket or whatever....tarps...whatever...painters use tarps to keep paint from getting all over the place....its the same concept, I don’t know why that is so difficult to understand....its not just a Dexter thing...

So you think Avery set up a kill room and was able to brutally murder a woman leaving zero trace of any blood/DNA in the room?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Those are two different stains/patters. The hair stain was a large stain on the carpet area  of that hatch area. The likely cast-off pattern is on that back door itself. 

Fair enough...I wasn’t sure. Which one you were referring to...the door stain could have been from an object like a hammer or knife being swung....and it would make sense that if she was shot in the head or hit with a hammer in the head a larger pool type stain from her bloody hair would be on the carpet area if she wasn’t completely covered up properly

 

[Stinkin Ref]

So you think Avery set up a kill room and was able to brutally murder a woman leaving zero trace of any blood/DNA in the room?

I think she was raped in the bedroom but killed someplace else like the garage....I think she was alive when she was removed from the bedroom...I think tarps were laid out in both locations...

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Whatever....maybe....there is all kinds of speculation from all sides and people are talking conspiracy theories all over the place....crooked cops, planting evidence....other suspects etc...they all want to set up Avery....but yet I just lay out some simple theories in the other direction about how Avery may have done it if he did do it....and the Dexter comments start flying....

That’s kind of how the presumption of innocence is supposed to work. 

Theres no doubt that some of the defense theories also feel fanciful. I totally understand why many find the evidence presented by the State compelling.  But there’s a fundamental difference between suggesting an alternative theory in order to hold the State to its burden of proof and doing so to shift that burden onto a defendant. 

 

[Stinkin Ref]

My dad used to deer hunt....when he would bring the deer back and hang it up in our barn....we would place tarps under where the deer hung to capture the blood and keep it from staining the floor of the barn.....Capture the hair from being skinned, etc. from removing the antlers, etc..then roll it all up when done and burn it....its not a foreign concept

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I also believe the RAV was hidden (not very well I might add ...it was almost comical how branches and stuff were placed on it) in a very careless hap hazard way.......and also not wiped clean since he was in a hurry to temporarily "hide" it....but also with the full intention of moving it later to some other location to get rid of it, and/or just crushing it there on the property (why he would still have key)....even if he crushes it on their property and leaves the crushed vehicle there in a pile , that is still a risky move, knowing at some point they would know his salvage yard was going to be one of her last known locations because Avery requested her specifically to come out and take the pictures trough AutoTrader....and his property would probably be searched with a fine toothed comb....I think he had her for however long and then starting feeling a little heat/sense of urgency to dispose of her and the car and he got careless....once the property came under suspicion and was maybe being watched 24-7.... trying to move the RAV became too risky and his only play was to leave it where it was and hope nobody found it....

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

I also believe the RAV was hidden (not very well I might add ...it was almost comical how branches and stuff were placed on it) in a very careless hap hazard way.......and also not wiped clean since he was in a hurry to temporarily "hide" it....but also with the full intention of moving it later to some other location to get rid of it, and/or just crushing it there on the property (why he would still have key)....even if he crushes it on their property and leaves the crushed vehicle there in a pile , that is still a risky move, knowing at some point they would know his salvage yard was going to be one of her last known locations because Avery requested her specifically to come out and take the pictures trough AutoTrader....and his property would probably be searched with a fine toothed comb....I think he had her for however long and then starting feeling a little heat/sense of urgency to dispose of her and the car and he got careless....once the property came under suspicion and was maybe being watched 24-7.... trying to move the RAV became too risky and his only play was to leave it where it was and hope nobody found it....

I'm sure I will regret  making counter-points to all your points here, but I'm bored this afternoon, so you're in luck  

in the vein of the whole "thinking like a criminal" thing, this makes zero sense. If he was SO careful to place the tarps over every square inch of his bedroom and garage, so meticulous as to not allow one single speck of blood or hair or any other DNA-containing particle, he wouldn't be so sloppy with the car.  He also wouldn't need the key to crush the car, as there are forklifts/tractors to facilitate that.  But you're right, he would've known they'd search his place, which just further dilutes the careful planning argument. 

And I also grew up hunting deer, and while I agree you can definitely contain the mess when cleaning/processing a deer, I highly doubt that the scene was ever completely DNA-free after that process was finished, no matter how careful.  Then again, nobody ever checked for DNA either, so to the naked eye, it probably looked pristine. 

My larger point here (and to Mr. A earlier) was that for almost every single point you can make, there's a counter-point with a reasonable (i.e. reasonable doubt) explanation as to why that could or could not be. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Through S2E4 so far, and I find very interesting the points Zellner raises about the scent and cadaver dogs hitting and trailing around the quarry property, as well the 'death by fire' expert, in what it takes to burn a body. 

 

[Mr Anonymous]

I'm sure I will regret  making counter-points to all your points here, but I'm bored this afternoon, so you're in luck  

Lol, I know the feeling. This case definitely pulls a person in no doubt. I think I'm done weighing in. ?

 

[Don't Noonan]

Steven Avery is too stupid to have the foresight to lay down tarps in his bedroom.  He may have killed her but I don't believe Brendan was involved at all.  One thing is for sure, it didn't happen the way the prosecution described, which was Brendan's made up story.

I don't believe Steven was guilty either but I wouldn't be shocked if he was.  

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Steven Avery is too stupid to have the foresight to lay down tarps in his bedroom.  He may have killed her but I don't believe Brendan was involved at all.  One thing is for sure, it didn't happen the way the prosecution described, which was Brendan's made up story.

I don't believe Steven was guilty either but I wouldn't be shocked if he was.  

I don't understand why, if he were guilty, he'd keep writing all these letters to judges and courts, or why he'd let Zellner continue with his case when she told him from the jump that if he was guilty, she'd find out.  But then again, people are also crazy, so.....

 

[Don't Noonan]

I don't understand why, if he were guilty, he'd keep writing all these letters to judges and courts, or why he'd let Zellner continue with his case when she told him from the jump that if he was guilty, she'd find out.  But then again, people are also crazy, so.....

Agreed.  If he is guilty is one hell of a sociopath.  Brain activity test determined he is innocent in 2nd episode, why would he be so willing to take it if he was guilty?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I'm sure I will regret  making counter-points to all your points here, but I'm bored this afternoon, so you're in luck  

in the vein of the whole "thinking like a criminal" thing, this makes zero sense. If he was SO careful to place the tarps over every square inch of his bedroom and garage, so meticulous as to not allow one single speck of blood or hair or any other DNA-containing particle, he wouldn't be so sloppy with the car.  He also wouldn't need the key to crush the car, as there are forklifts/tractors to facilitate that.  But you're right, he wouldn't known they'd search his place, which just further dilutes the careful planning argument. 

And I also grew up hunting deer, and while I agree you can definitely contain the mess when cleaning/processing a deer, I highly doubt that the scene was ever completely DNA-free after that process was finished, no matter how careful.  Then again, nobody ever checked for DNA either, so to the naked eye, it probably looked pristine. 

My larger point here (and to Mr. A earlier) was that for almost every single point you can make, there's a counter-point with a reasonable (i.e. reasonable doubt) explanation as to why that could or could not be. 

he would not need to cover "every square inch"...

as far as being sloppy with the car....I don't know about you but Avery doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer....throwing down a few tarps or whatever is pretty simple/primitive....making decisions when he starts to panic, might be a little more difficult....so while some of his planning and premeditation would be very easy (tarps, etc) thinking through the entire process might not have been his strength....in fact that seems like exactly what has happened....he WAS able to prevent leaving a ton of physical evidence behind, just not all of it....that is about what I would expect from him....while he didn't "need" the key, it was probably much easier to drive the car to an initial hiding spot then to forklift it....and then also easier to drive it somewhere off the property if that would have been the follow up plan....or drive it to the car crusher instead of fork lifting to the car crusher...I can totally see why he would keep the key around..

I'm not sure of the exact timeline between when she arrived for the car shoot and when any initial missing person reports were first made public....I feel, he had her for some time, doing what he felt he needed to do, and then when he started feeling the heat of "oh crap, they may start looking for this girl" ....he decided it was time to move into getting rid of her and the clean up process....I think he got a little messy here being in a hurry....especially in his dealing with the car...I think he initially hid it where it was found with plans to get rid of it or crush it later, but he miscalculated the time and it was too late as the search was already on...

there was some DNA found...not a ton, but some and it was Avery's and TH's...Avery's blood on the ignition is pretty huge for me considering the pretty severe cut on his hand and how it is pretty easy to see how it got there....of course the defense says somebody snuck into his bathroom (unnoticed by anybody), took some of the blood off his bathroom counter and then knew to go put it on the ignition because they knew that blood came from a cut on Avery's finger...(lol)...just typing that makes me laugh....

who knows...of course there can be a counter point for everything I have described...but what I have laid out isn't that much more far fetched than any of the conspiracies that would have led to the most epic set up job of all time if Avery didn't do it...

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Through S2E4 so far, and I find very interesting the points Zellner raises about the scent and cadaver dogs hitting and trailing around the quarry property, as well the 'death by fire' expert, in what it takes to burn a body. 

one thing you will notice as you continue to watch is a lot of the cadaver dog stuff is mentioned along with mentions of a "pelvic bone" or parts of a pelvic bone being found on other property....however you will notice they are all very careful not to say it was TH's pelvic bone.....I think they want you to think or assume it is TH's pelvic bone, but it is not mentioned as for sure being hers....if it was you would have thought the defense would really test it and have it highlighted that it was TH's....I'm still curious how that part pans out....my gut says if it was TH's pelvic bone, we would have heard MUCH more about it and it would be a PRIMARY focus of the defense....my guess is that since that hasn't happened (yet) that it must not be hers...as far as we know right now the only place TH's remains have been found...is on the Avery property...

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

he would not need to cover "every square inch"...

as far as being sloppy with the car....I don't know about you but Avery doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer....throwing down a few tarps or whatever is pretty simple....making decisions when he starts to panic, might be a little more difficult....so while some of his planning and premeditation would be very easy (tarps, etc) thinking through the entire process might not have been his strength....in fact that seems like exactly what has happened....he WAS able to prevent leaving a ton of physical evidence behind, just not all of it....that is about what I would expect from him....while he didn't "need" the key, it was probably much easier to drive the car to an initial hiding spot then to forklift it....and then also easier to drive it somewhere off the property if that would have been the follow up plan....or drive it to the car crusher instead of fork lifting to the car crusher...

I'm not sure of the exact timeline between when she arrived for the car shoot and when any initial missing person reports were first made public....I feel, he had her for some time, doing what he felt he needed to do, and then when he started feeling the heat of "oh crap, they may start looking for this girl" ....he decided it was time to move into getting rid of her and the clean up process....I think he got a little messy here being in a hurry....especially in his dealing with the car...I think he initially hid it where it was found with plans to get rid of it or crush it later, but he miscalculated the time and it was too late as the search was already on...

there was some DNA found...not a ton, but some and it was Avery's and TH's...Avery's blood on the ignition is pretty huge for me considering the pretty severe cut on his hand and how it is pretty easy to see how it got there....of course the defense says somebody snuck into his bathroom (unnoticed by anybody), took some of the blood off his bathroom counter and then knew to go put it on the ignition because they knew that blood came from a cut on Avery's finger...(lol)...just typing that makes me laugh....

who knows...of course there can be a counter point for everything I have described...but what I have laid out isn't that much more far fetched than any of the conspiracies that would have been the most epic set up job of all time if Avery didn't do it...

Yes, throwing down tarps is simple... but, and I don't have any proof of this, just like you don't, but I'd think that raping and murdering someone on these said tarps (let's assume she's on the bed covered in tarps, and the entire room is covered in tarps to catch any splatter), then getting yourself off of the tarps, while keeping the victim and all of their dna/blood/etc inside the tarps and neatly wrapped in a nice package, oh except for that bit of bloody hair sticking out the top...oh wait, that had to be then unwrapped in the garage while she was still alive because she actually died in the garage, right?! you see what I'm getting at?  (I know, I know...doesn't matter)

and I believe the Zellner's blood stain expert covered the ignition blood pretty well in S2E2 (I think it was 2?)

Also, why would he need to take the key out of the car at all, at any point? Seems pretty un-careful. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

one thing you will notice as you continue to watch is a lot of the cadaver dog stuff is mentioned along with mentions of a "pelvic bone" or parts of a pelvic bone being found on other property....however you will notice they are all very careful not to say it was TH's pelvic bone.....I think they want you to think or assume it is TH's pelvic bone, but it is not mentioned as for sure being hers....if it was you would have thought the defense would really test it and have it highlighted that it was TH's....I'm still curious how that part pans out....my guy says if it was TH's pelvic bone, we would have heard MUCH more about it and it would be a PRIMARY focus of the defense....my guess is that since that hasn't happened (yet) that it must not be hers...as far as we know right now the only place TH's remains have been found...is on the Avery property...

Agree, interesting for sure. IIRC, there was not enough DNA on the pelvic bone to say that it was hers or not, but it was definitely human .  And I could be wrong, but I think the scent dogs were reacting to TH's scent, meaning she was at that location at some point in the recent past.  And that was Zellner's point. They didn't investigate that lead well enough and it was definitely a compelling one.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Yes, throwing down tarps is simple... but, and I don't have any proof of this, just like you don't, but I'd think that raping and murdering someone on these said tarps (let's assume she's on the bed covered in tarps, and the entire room is covered in tarps to catch any splatter), then getting yourself off of the tarps, while keeping the victim and all of their dna/blood/etc inside the tarps and neatly wrapped in a nice package, oh except for that bit of bloody hair sticking out the top...oh wait, that had to be then unwrapped in the garage while she was still alive because she actually died in the garage, right?! you see what I'm getting at?  (I know, I know...doesn't matter)

and I believe the Zellner's blood stain expert covered the ignition blood pretty well in S2E2 (I think it was 2?)

Also, why would he need to take the key out of the car at all, at any point? Seems pretty un-careful. 

in my version...lol...she is not killed or stabbed or any blood left in the bedroom....she is alive when she leaves the bedroom....she is then taken to the garage where the RAV is already being hidden after she was initially kidnapped...she is stabbed/shot/whatever in the garage (on tarps or whatever)....immediately wrapped up in said tarps....placed in the back of the RAV for quick transport to the burn barrel....car is then hidden on property...remains in the burn barrel are then moved to the fire pit for continued burning/spreading them out whatever...

eta: I feel that as soon as he secured her after initially kidnapping her....he moved her RAV to the garage to hide it/not have it sitting out in the open...he then knew he probably had some time before "she would be reported missing"...

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I don't understand why, if he were guilty, he'd keep writing all these letters to judges and courts, or why he'd let Zellner continue with his case when she told him from the jump that if he was guilty, she'd find out.  But then again, people are also crazy, so.....

even guilty people want to get out...lol... and if they see even the slightest opening to their freedom (loophole/technicality) they will probably exhaust every resource possible if they thought they could get out...I know I would..once this case gained even a little steam/notoriety why wouldn't you....and once the original MAM came out...Avery was going to be all in even if he did do it....Zellner agreeing to take the case is just gravy...Zellner throws out the "I'll find out if your guilty" as some kind of threat or badge of honor....or cockiness...whatever you want to call it....and maybe she has earned that....but at this point Avery doesn't care....he has nothing to lose, including $$$ because Zellner is doing it pro bono...

 

[Dickies]

Whatever....maybe....there is all kinds of speculation from all sides and people are talking conspiracy theories all over the place....crooked cops, planting evidence....other suspects etc...they all want to set up Avery....but yet I just lay out some simple theories in the other direction about how Avery may have done it if he did do it....and the Dexter comments start flying....I just feel he lured her there and had planned to do exactly what he did....and if so...he would plan ahead to try and not leave evidence behind....using tarps or something like tarps would help....if he was planning on raping her in the bedroom, he would have it set up already with them laid out etc...look I have no idea what happened, but if I was planning on raping and killing someone....I would have tarps everywhere especially under where I was going to rape her and then ultimately kill her....

These are the same cops that had a framed police sketch of Avery hung on their wall, were notified that there was DNA evidence exonerating him of rape and buried it so that they could keep him in jail, and refused to admit they got the wrong guy when he was officially exonerated because of DNA evidence (which pointed to a serial rapist).

 

[Stinkin Ref]

These are the same cops that had a framed police sketch of Avery hung on their wall, were notified that there was DNA evidence exonerating him of rape and buried it so that they could keep him in jail, and refused to admit they got the wrong guy when he was officially exonerated because of DNA evidence (which pointed to a serial rapist).

everybody has known that since day one.....doesn't mean Avery didn't kill TH....

 

[Dickies]

there was some DNA found...not a ton, but some and it was Avery's and TH's...Avery's blood on the ignition is pretty huge for me considering the pretty severe cut on his hand and how it is pretty easy to see how it got there....of course the defense says somebody snuck into his bathroom (unnoticed by anybody), took some of the blood off his bathroom counter and then knew to go put it on the ignition because they knew that blood came from a cut on Avery's finger...(lol)...just typing that makes me laugh....

There was no blood on the ignition or the key. or the shifter.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

There was no blood on the ignition or the key. or the shifter.

?????...when I say ignition I am talking about the part right behind where the key goes in.... that had Avery's blood on it....

 

[Dickies]

in my version...lol...she is not killed or stabbed or any blood left in the bedroom....she is alive when she leaves the bedroom....she is then taken to the garage where the RAV is already being hidden after she was initially kidnapped...she is stabbed/shot/whatever in the garage (on tarps or whatever)....immediately wrapped up in said tarps....placed in the back of the RAV for quick transport to the burn barrel....car is then hidden on property...remains in the burn barrel are then moved to the fire pit for continued burning/spreading them out whatever...

eta: I feel that as soon as he secured her after initially kidnapping her....he moved her RAV to the garage to hide it/not have it sitting out in the open...he then knew he probably had some time before "she would be reported missing"...

This is not how Dassey said it went down in any of his versions of the event

 

[Dickies]

everybody has known that since day one.....doesn't mean Avery didn't kill TH....

You were mocking alternate theories because of these things, but it's clear the cops are crooked, planted evidence, and wanted Avery in jail.  It really shouldn't be the defense's burden to accuse other suspects, but the police should have an obligation to investigate all possible suspects, which they did not do.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

This is not how Dassey said it went down in any of his versions of the event

I realize that....I don't know what his level of involvement was and when exactly he was introduced to the events.....so he may not know some things, may have been fed some things, etc....may only know a few things....not looking for my version to agree with anything....but just as many others have done (like the defense) ...just throwing out some ideas of how it could have gone down based on some of the evidence presented....

 

[Dickies]

?????...when I say ignition I am talking about the part right behind where the key goes in.... that had Avery's blood on it....

Ah yes, that area that I have on my car that I don't think I've ever touched other than when I dust the inside of my car.  It just seems like a bizarre place to leave blood under any circumstance.  You would think blood would be on the steering wheel, door handles, shifter, key, perhaps the actual ignition, and maybe on the seatbelt.  If he wore gloves then how did blood get where you are describing?  If he didn't wear gloves and cleaned everything then why is blood in the most visible spot from the driver's seat?  The locations where the blood was found make no sense to me.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Ah yes, that area that I have on my car that I don't think I've ever touched other than when I dust the inside of my car.  It just seems like a bizarre place to leave blood under any circumstance.  You would think blood would be on the steering wheel, door handles, shifter, key, perhaps the actual ignition, and maybe on the seatbelt.  If he wore gloves then how did blood get where you are describing?  If he didn't wear gloves and cleaned everything then why is blood in the most visible spot from the driver's seat?  The locations where the blood was found make no sense to me.

If you look at the location of the cut on his finger, it is very easy to see how some blood could be left on that exact spot on the ignition....easily have your finger brush up against that spot when adjusting the ignition....nobody can really doubt that...from the pictures, it was a pretty significant cut, and while it may not be streaming blood 24/7...its in one of those spots on your finger that could reopen very easily through normal everyday movement or bending of the finger......from what I understand he may have had it for awhile, but it kept reopening...so if it was just a little juicy, but not streaming blood, you could see it leaving that mark if rubbed there....it may not have been bleeding enough to leave drops in the other places you mention....

not sure who you are quoting about gloves....know its not me....it doesn’t appear he used gloves obviously

and you mentioned cleaning everything....not sure where that came from....nobody said that...in fact I think he was in such a hurry to hide the vehicle that he did not have time to wipe down the entire car....which seems to be the case as TH’s blood was found in several other places of the vehicle...

you said the places where blood were found make no sense....yet he had a cut on his right hand that makes perfect sense to be left where it was on the ignition....and if she was killed and placed in the back of the RAV....the places where her blood were found make perfect sense...not sure where you are going , but there is a pretty good explanation that could contradict everything you are saying...the physical evidence shows that both Avery and TH’s blood are in the vehicle....you can’t argue that....if you want to argue about how it got there, that’s another discussion...

 

[chet]

I know Brendan is Steven's nephew but does anyone know how Steven is related to Brendan's parents?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

If you look at the location of the cut on his finger, it is very easy to see how some blood could be left on that exact spot on the ignition....easily have your finger brush up against that spot when adjusting the ignition....nobody can really doubt that...from the pictures, it was a pretty significant cut, and while it may not be streaming blood 24/7...its in one of those spots on your finger that could reopen very easily through normal everyday movement or bending of the finger......from what I understand he may have had it for awhile, but it kept reopening...so if it was just a little juicy, but not streaming blood, you could see it leaving that mark if rubbed there....it may not have been bleeding enough to leave drops in the other places you mention....

not sure who you are quoting about gloves....know its not me....it doesn’t appear he used gloves obviously

and you mentioned cleaning everything....not sure where that came from....nobody said that...in fact I think he was in such a hurry to hide the vehicle that he did not have time to wipe down the entire car....which seems to be the case as TH’s blood was found in several other places of the vehicle...

you said the places where blood were found make no sense....yet he had a cut on his right hand that makes perfect sense to be left where it was on the ignition....and if she was killed and placed in the back of the RAV....the places where her blood were found make perfect sense...not sure where you are going , but there is a pretty good explanation that could contradict everything you are saying...the physical evidence shows that both Avery and TH’s blood are in the vehicle....you can’t argue that....if you want to argue about how it got there, that’s another discussion...

did you watch Season 2 yet? (I can't remember who has/hasn't from this thread  ) I ask because they cover that very thing in one of the early S2 episodes. Zellner places actual blood on a guys hand on the location of SA's infamous cut and had him crank the RAV4. Several times. No blood on the dash, as it is several inches away from the ignition on that model. There was, however, blood on the steering wheel, blood on the key and blood on the shifter from that same cut. 

 

[Don't Noonan]

did you watch Season 2 yet? (I can't remember who has/hasn't from this thread  ) I ask because they cover that very thing in one of the early S2 episodes. Zellner places actual blood on a guys hand on the location of SA's infamous cut and had him crank the RAV4. Several times. No blood on the dash, as it is several inches away from the ignition on that model. There was, however, blood on the steering wheel, blood on the key and blood on the shifter from that same cut. 

First episode in season 2 I believe.  Also, the "sweat" DNA on the hood latch is extremely fishy.  The trials they did showed how unlikely it was actually sweat.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

I know Brendan is Steven's nephew but does anyone know how Steven is related to Brendan's parents?

Barb is Steve's sister. Brendan's dad, that I recall, wasn't in Season 1 at all, but has made appearances in Season 2. 

 

[Stinkin Ref]

did you watch Season 2 yet? (I can't remember who has/hasn't from this thread  ) I ask because they cover that very thing in one of the early S2 episodes. Zellner places actual blood on a guys hand on the location of SA's infamous cut and had him crank the RAV4. Several times. No blood on the dash, as it is several inches away from the ignition on that model. There was, however, blood on the steering wheel, blood on the key and blood on the shifter from that same cut. 

Avery may have been a little more clumsy with getting the key into the ignition like many of us have sometimes....especially more clumsy then a guy who Zellner had try to recreate it and probably being very careful to not smear on that part of the ignition to prove their point...he probably made sure he got the key in the hole perfectly...if you are Avery and in a hurry under stress, you may not perfectly get the key in the hole....you could easily see him missing his mark and blood being where it was...

and as far as blood elsewhere....they have no idea how much that cut was bleeding at the time Avery was in the vehicle....when they did it, they may have used way more blood/dripping than was actually the case....blood not being elsewhere...that proves Nothing

 

[Stinkin Ref]

First episode in season 2 I believe.  Also, the "sweat" DNA on the hood latch is extremely fishy.  The trials they did showed how unlikely it was actually sweat.

Whatever it was...was still his DNA...so another epic plant of Avery’s DNA somehow

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Avery may have been a little more clumsy with getting the key into the ignition like many of us have sometimes....especially more clumsy then a guy who Zellner had try to recreate it and probably being very careful to not smear on that part of the ignition to prove their point...he probably made sure he got the key in the hole perfectly...if you are Avery and in a hurry under stress, you may not perfectly get the key in the hole....you could easily see him missing his mark and blood being where it was...

and as far as blood elsewhere....they have no idea how much that cut was bleeding at the time Avery was in the vehicle....when they did it, they may have used way more blood/dripping than was actually the case....that proves Nothing

Agree on the first point. Disagree on the second. If it was actively bleeding enough to leave a big blob on the dash, I have to think there would have been SOME other blood elsewhere in that driver's seat area. Could it be explained away? Of course. He could have been trying to do yoga in the front seat for all we know and accidentally removed his glove and bumped the dash and re-opened his cut. Point being, if you're looking for a reason for it to be there, it's easy to come up with one. And vice versa.   And yes, it proves nothing, but it does cause doubt, which is the ENTIRE point. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Whatever it was...was still his DNA...so another epic plant of Avery’s DNA somehow

A noticeably and unusually high content of DNA for what they are contending it was ("sweat DNA"). Zellner covered that too. 

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

You were mocking alternate theories because of these things, but it's clear the cops are crooked, planted evidence, and wanted Avery in jail.  It really shouldn't be the defense's burden to accuse other suspects, but the police should have an obligation to investigate all possible suspects, which they did not do.

Remember the defense was actually prevented from naming other suspects. They lost their pre-trial Denney motion. 

 

[cockroach]

These are the same cops that had a framed police sketch of Avery hung on their wall, were notified that there was DNA evidence exonerating him of rape and buried it so that they could keep him in jail, and refused to admit they got the wrong guy when he was officially exonerated because of DNA evidence (which pointed to a serial rapist).

everybody has known that since day one.....doesn't mean Avery didn't kill TH.... 

Yea, we've known from day 1 that the Mantowac police are crooked AF with a vendetta against Avery.  Now we have this crime with all this evidence found by said crooked AF cops (that legally aren't even supposed to be investigating) that doesn't really connect.  Occam's razor, man.