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Manny / Hermida / Jason Bay trade (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter wilked
- Start date
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
Bay ain't no Manny.
Not looking forward to watching Manny destroy Met pitching in the NL East for the next 2 months.
Not looking forward to watching Manny destroy Met pitching in the NL East for the next 2 months.
wilked
Footballguy
I would argue that with the defensive difference, Bay may be an improvement...Hard to score the deal without knowing the prospects
SuperAwesomeDude
Footballguy
but still, bay isnt really THAT good. if i were a sox fan, i wouldnt be happy.
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
Manny's stats against the Yankees and in the post season are going to be tough to replace.
Yankee fans have taken to the streets - cars going up and down the street with horns honking here in NY. Feels like New Years Eve.
Yankee fans have taken to the streets - cars going up and down the street with horns honking here in NY. Feels like New Years Eve.
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wilked
Footballguy
Bay's stats
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bayja01.shtml
Manny's stats
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ramirma02.shtml
OPS+ is close, with the definite edge to Manny. But defense is a clear upgrade. Depends how much you value defense, but all the numbers I can find show Manny to be the worst outfielder in the league
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bayja01.shtml
Manny's stats
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ramirma02.shtml
OPS+ is close, with the definite edge to Manny. But defense is a clear upgrade. Depends how much you value defense, but all the numbers I can find show Manny to be the worst outfielder in the league
Billy Bats
Footballguy
As a Phils fan the Marlins getting Manny scares the crap out of me. But props to them for knowing they have a chance and taking a run at it, I wish my squad would do that sometime. 
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
This Manny thing is blowing up worse than I thought it would. I think they had no choice but to trade him and considering he's just a rental for Florida, getting a player back like Jason Bay is about as much as they could ask for.
The team is obviously in disarray right now, just need to move on. Bay is having a good year. No, he's not Manny but the Sox still have a very solid team and could do something in the playoffs.
The team is obviously in disarray right now, just need to move on. Bay is having a good year. No, he's not Manny but the Sox still have a very solid team and could do something in the playoffs.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
That team is gonna have a WHOLE different feel without Manny in the lineup.I'm sure Bay will be a nice player for Boston. He won't strike fear into anyone at the plate the way MR did.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Red Sox fans are happy to see Manny go. Yankee fans are thrilled to see Manny g
ne group is lying.
I
ianfitzy
Guest
ESPN's Peter Gammons believes the three-team Manny Ramirez talks will stretch into Thursday and that a deal is still unlikely to be completed.
It's been 40 minutes now and no one has joined Will Carroll in saying that the deal is done or even all that close to being done. Skepticism is still warranted
It's been 40 minutes now and no one has joined Will Carroll in saying that the deal is done or even all that close to being done. Skepticism is still warranted
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
I've been the biggest Manny supporter and Im definately not happy that he's going. But this last escapade was obviously not going to blow over easily this time. They wouldn't have moved him if they didn't think he was going to be a whole lot of trouble over the next two months.It sucks that he couldnt have finished this year out in Boston but look at the Sox right now, they needed to do something.Red Sox fans are happy to see Manny go. Yankee fans are thrilled to see Manny g
blackjack23
Footballguy
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Carroll is the injury guru at the network, not the information man, right?Is he the type of guy who would run with a story like this without being sure about it?
I
ianfitzy
Guest
Not sure but Gammons is a guy that would know what is going on with the Red Sox. If it does happen then the Sox have been extremely tight lipped about it and someone from Florida let it slip.
wilked
Footballguy
One group underestimates Jason BayIf you have watched this team lately, they are not playing well, and there is a decided 'funk' in the air. The whole Manny saga is huge distraction. It is nearly certain that he won't be back after this year. He has already shown signs of not going 100%, has said many times he doesn't want to be in Boston....it certainly doesn't have the feel of a team that can make a playoff run. The time has come for a changeThat said, Theo better not be giving up any prospect of significance for thisRed Sox fans are happy to see Manny go. Yankee fans are thrilled to see Manny g
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
Gammons is not always accurate, I wouldn't he hanging my hat on anything Gammons says.
wilked
Footballguy
Bay is a horrible fielder
you obviously haven't seen Mannyhttp://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...ideoid=39669030you have to be blind not to think Bay is an upgrade
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
http://www.faketeams.com/2008/7/30/583213/...umors-manny-beiWhat was dismissed as "fantasy" earlier today by the Boston Herald is now ALMOST a done deal. In the proposed 3-way deal, the Marlins would get Manny Ramirez from the Red Sox, the Pirates would get Jeremy Hermida from the Marlins and the Sox would get Jason Bay from the Pirates. There would also be several prospects moving between the teams.
Will Carroll from Baseball Prospectus says the rumored deal could be the following:
Marlins get Manny Ramirez, one prospect (BOS), and cash (likely Ramirez's remaining salary)
Pirates get Jeremy Hermida and three prospects (two FLO, one BOS)
Red Sox get Jason Bay and John Grabow
Carroll also points out that the Commissioner's office has been notified of the deal, so if this rumored deal is approved, what started out as fantasy is now fact.Manny is certainly an upgrade over Hermida in the Marlins lineup. Pittsburgh gets Hermida who was once one of baseball's top prospects before a few injuries slowed the start of his career. He will man RF for the Pirates. The Sox will probably not skip a beat with Bay replacing Manny in the their lineup.
What remains is what prospects the Pirates get in this deal, but on the surface, they appear to have made a great deal for Bay. This trade will make the Marlins a solid contender in the competitive NL East. And the Sox will continue with a more harmonious clubhouse.
And it appears the Marlins are not done yet, as it is being reported that Mike Jacobs was pulled from tonight's game vs. the Mets in the 6th inning for no apparent reason. It is being speculated that he will be dealt to the Giants for catcher Benjie Molina. The Marlins had been rumored to be in the market for a catcher for several weeks now.
If these two deals go down, the Marlins lineup will be one of the best in the NL, if not the best with Hanley, Uggla, Cantu, Manny, Molina, Willingham, and Ross. I assume Wes Helms becomes the everyday 1bman if Jacobs is dealt.
Who knew the Marlins would be this active before the trade deadline. Wonder what Omar is thinking right now? Probably kicking himself for not going after one of his favorite players. Will he give up Fernando Martinez in a deal to counteract this proposed Marlins deal?
In other trade rumor activity:
The Yankees trade much maligned middle releiver Kyle Farnsworth to Detroit for catcher Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez . Pudge fills the Yankees need for a solid hitting catcher, and they get rid of one of their worst releivers at the same time-a win-win for the Yankees. Hank better re-sign Cashman before Frank McCourt grabs him in the offseason.
The Rockies apparently will decide this evening whether to deal closer Brian Fuentes to the highest bidder.
The Dodgers apparently are in discussions to trade for Greg Maddux. Is Penny not completely healthy?
And I think it might be easier to drill for oil in Alaska than to get to Will Carroll's story on BP's site....AMAZING. I've been trying to get to it for the last 20 minutes.
UPDATE: Ken Rosenthal from Foxsports reports the following on the Greg Maddux to LA rumor:
If the Padres are going to trade right-hander Greg Maddux to the Dodgers, they would need to move quickly and overcome significant financial hurdles. The two sides spoke Wednesday, but the Dodgers put the Padres on hold as they continue to work on other deals.
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
Steve Phillips is saying Jason Bay will go to Tampa.
wilked
Footballguy
Some defensive ratings
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/...hrough_june_22/
That article has Bay +9 runs (over an average defender) in left, and Manny -23
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...lumn=zoneRating
Zone Rating has Bay as slightly below average, with Manny by far dead last
If you don't realize that he is a significant defensive upgrade to Manny, then you don't follow baseball that closely
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/...hrough_june_22/
That article has Bay +9 runs (over an average defender) in left, and Manny -23
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...lumn=zoneRating
Zone Rating has Bay as slightly below average, with Manny by far dead last
If you don't realize that he is a significant defensive upgrade to Manny, then you don't follow baseball that closely
cheese
Footballguy
You are probably right that Manny is even worse, but Bay is considered one of the worst defensive outfielders in the national league.blackjack23
Footballguy
They are both poor fielders. He is a slight upgrade defensively not significant
blackjack23
Footballguy
GB wilked trying to spin everything the Red Sox way. Anyway, I agree the Sox had to move Manny (btw how the hell did this whole thing start?) and they got a solid haul for Manny but as a Yankee fan THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I think the Green Monster aids a suspect fielder, and lessens the impact of a good left fielder.
wilked
Footballguy
then you disagree with the links I provided, as they demonstrate a significant upgrade.I think a reasonable number to use over a season is that Bay is 15-20 runs saved greater in defense than Manny (or a run every 10 games or so). That fits the numbers provided, and fits mentally I think.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
wilked
Footballguy
ya think?!?? Send this guy to the head of the class...
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
:sigh:Yes, stats are okay unless you're playing half your games in an amusement park with a 97' high wall three feet in back of you.
I
ianfitzy
Guest
As a Red Sox fan, I don't think the difference in fielding is going to be all that great. I don't care about the stats. Bay is a bad fielder. Manny is an even worse fielder. It doesn't make much of a difference because of the Monster for one and we have GG caliber CFers which lessen the impact of having a guy in RF that blows. It's not like the Red Sox are trading for a Gold Glove left fielder here, or even an above average one.Raider Nation said:
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Paging Wilked.
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
Manny in that HUGE OF In Florida is going to be fun to watch.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Newsday, 24 minutes ago:
Carroll appears to be out on an island on this one. He'll either look like a genius or he'll get ripped.
wilked
Footballguy
Yes? People don't realize how bad a fielder Manny is. He is not just 'worse' than Bay. He is 'the worst', by far, in the league. RN, do you think it's not possible he is responsible for giving up 15-20 runs per year with his defense? Look at that video above, there are 2-3 right there. He lets plenty of balls drop in that a normal fielder would handle. He plays any ball hit close to the wall off the wall instead of getting back for the catch. Bay is not a good defender, I have seen him play, but the numbers don't lie either. Bay is not good, Manny is awful, the upgrade is significant.On another note, here are baserunning numbers for the twoBaserunning:(bases added/taken away):Bay: +23Ramirez: -4And let's not forget, they are hitting at a similar pace this year:OPS+Manny: 142Bay: 137Add in Manny's attitude, the fact that Bay is signed for cheap through 2010, and frankly it is a great swap should it go down
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
You're leaving one thing out: Bay will have to learn American League pitchers.Don't think that's a big deal? Xavier Nady, who was hitting .330 with the Pirates, looks like a little leaguer at the plate with N.Y.
I
ianfitzy
Guest
OPS+ is great and all but it will not tell the whole story. With Manny gone, Drew and Papi will not get as good of pitches to hit. Manny even in his declining state still scares the hell of out pitchers. I'm pretty sure Bay doesn't. Drew and Papi. I am not sure where Bay will fit into the lineup, if it is Manny's spot then Papi will not get the pitches to hit that he is accustomed to.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
For a long time, I used to think that Ortiz was great primarily because Manny was protecting him. That was BS. The dude can rake. He'll be fine, even if he doesn't see the same quality pitches every at-bat.
wilked
Footballguy
lol at comparing Nady and Bay at the dish
Take a look at Nady's OPS+ and compare 2008 to his careerhttp://www.baseball-reference.com/n/nadyxa01.shtml
He was overdue for a correction...
Listen, what do you want to hear? It is a downgrade offensively, though not as big as you want to think. It is an upgrade defensively, perhaps not as much as I think. It is an upgrade on the bases.
Most importantly, huge upgrade in the clubhouse. The team needs a shot in the arm, and the Manny atmosphere has been suffocating them lately
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I don't care how good he is. Learning pitchers in a new league is a legitimate concern.Bay is currently hitting .282. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he finished the season in the low .270s, assuming he is leaving.lol at comparing Nady and Bay at the dish
http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/nadyxa01.shtml
He was overdue for a correction...
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Buster Olney commenting now on ESPN.
You really can't use half-season fielding statistics with that much reliability. However Manny isn't a gazelle out there. If you look at the numbers Chris Dial published for last year Bay was about 1.1 runs worse than average at fielding his position and Manny rated at negative 30 runs. I've discussed this with Dial and some other defensive stats guys and they pretty much agree that no one is really that bad at fielding their position. Considering the odd configuration of LF because of the Green Monster Manny is probably 15 runs worse than average. So the Sox probably save 7 or 8 runs for the rest of the year by having Manny out there.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
X-man is batting .091 since coming to the AL.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
wilked
Footballguy
Please list full Yankees starters' stats, nicknames, and current starlet of the monthBecause that info is equally relevant to the 'X-Man's' 10 AL ABs :thumbup;
