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Mariano Rivera (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter AmosMoses
- Start date
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
My favorite Yankee
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Almost a Babe Ruth of relievers, he's so far ahead of the field. I've loved him since that 95 ALDS and the best part of watching him is his accountability. Always present, always a man and matter of fact on those rare occasions when he blows one.
He's as close to a folk hero as we have had in NY, along with maybe an LT. I say this because he's always felt like cinderella because Mo credits God after getting TJ I believe(in a more uncertain time of TJ surgery) with that cutter which he says he just woke up one day throwing. Factor in the the fact that he will teach his cutter to anyone on any team who asks him(I believe Halladay credits him with improving his) and its not a stretch to say, Mariano the man is better than Mariano the pitcher, if possible.
As for where he sits, if I'm going to be totally objective from a baseball standpoint, he's an incomplete right now. The era of the reliever is a new one by comparison to the history of baseball and frankly it seems rough to compare a guy throwing 1/3 to 1/4 the innings a starter goes. But that said, only Hoffman and Lee Smith are in the discussion for durability and longevity in the relief role, in this modern era of specialization. Just seems like the nature of the role creates a churn and burn on the arm, so what he's done is really something.
He's a HOFer, and if there ever was to be a unanimous one, I would hope it would be him, for not only his amazing proficiency but for his character and guts too, but greatest pitchers? Maybe, MAYBE top 20. I mean, top of my head, better than him:
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Tom Seaver
Sandy Koufax
Maddux
Steve Carlton
Bob Gibson
3 Finger Brown
Randy Johnson
Clemens(3 cy youngs before the roids)
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Spahn
Pedro
Two final thoughts
1. This is a story that's still being written. He'll soon have the regular season saves record, and has already stated if healthy he wants one more year. After the 2009 World Series, he said he wanted to go 5 more years, which would take him to 2014. If he went that far, he might hit 700. He's not what he was, the velocity isn't what it was, but this resume is ongoing.
2. I think we would need 15-20 years to fully contextualize and get some sort sample size of peers. Relievers, Mo included, used to be failed starters, but we are in an era(and have been) where kids are bred from youth to be strictly relievers. Mo may just look all the more impressive once he's been gone for 10 years. I mean, 42 post season saves and counting is pretty ridiculous.
He's as close to a folk hero as we have had in NY, along with maybe an LT. I say this because he's always felt like cinderella because Mo credits God after getting TJ I believe(in a more uncertain time of TJ surgery) with that cutter which he says he just woke up one day throwing. Factor in the the fact that he will teach his cutter to anyone on any team who asks him(I believe Halladay credits him with improving his) and its not a stretch to say, Mariano the man is better than Mariano the pitcher, if possible.
As for where he sits, if I'm going to be totally objective from a baseball standpoint, he's an incomplete right now. The era of the reliever is a new one by comparison to the history of baseball and frankly it seems rough to compare a guy throwing 1/3 to 1/4 the innings a starter goes. But that said, only Hoffman and Lee Smith are in the discussion for durability and longevity in the relief role, in this modern era of specialization. Just seems like the nature of the role creates a churn and burn on the arm, so what he's done is really something.
He's a HOFer, and if there ever was to be a unanimous one, I would hope it would be him, for not only his amazing proficiency but for his character and guts too, but greatest pitchers? Maybe, MAYBE top 20. I mean, top of my head, better than him:
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Tom Seaver
Sandy Koufax
Maddux
Steve Carlton
Bob Gibson
3 Finger Brown
Randy Johnson
Clemens(3 cy youngs before the roids)
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Spahn
Pedro
Two final thoughts
1. This is a story that's still being written. He'll soon have the regular season saves record, and has already stated if healthy he wants one more year. After the 2009 World Series, he said he wanted to go 5 more years, which would take him to 2014. If he went that far, he might hit 700. He's not what he was, the velocity isn't what it was, but this resume is ongoing.
2. I think we would need 15-20 years to fully contextualize and get some sort sample size of peers. Relievers, Mo included, used to be failed starters, but we are in an era(and have been) where kids are bred from youth to be strictly relievers. Mo may just look all the more impressive once he's been gone for 10 years. I mean, 42 post season saves and counting is pretty ridiculous.
He won't be a unanimous selection.
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
8-1 139.2IP 0.71ERA 0.77WHIP 42SAVES 25BB(4IBB) 109K's 2HR allowed (Sandy Alomar, Jay Payton) 94 Games
These #'s set him apart from everyone else all time. Someone will save more games than Mo down the line. None will be as dominant in the post season.
These #'s set him apart from everyone else all time. Someone will save more games than Mo down the line. None will be as dominant in the post season.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I agree, I was just speculating. It's hard to thread all those needles. In fact, I'd be he's closer to not getting elected than unanimous, but if we have determined relievers can be HOFers, there is none betterI wonder if Randy or Maddux would be.
scoobus
Footballguy
I'll bet he's very close to unanimous. Like you said now that it's determined relievers can be in the HOF, there's no leaving off the GOAT.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Please don't take this as disagreeing with his greatness and his place in the history of the game- I think he's unbelievable. But half of those numbers came because he plays for the Yankees. Career playoff totals are a really stupid way to evaluate individual performance. If he'd had the misfortune of being a Pirate, those numbers would be zeros across the board.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Where does he rank if he is on the Royals for part of his career? Or, the Marlins (somewhat of a winning team but not great)? He is good, but not great.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Or another way to look at this: Rivera has the second-most blown saves in the postseason in the history of baseball. One could argue that he bears more responsibility than any other player for the most embarrassing episode in the history of the Yankees, having recorded blown saves in Games 4 and 5 of the 2004 ALCS.Again, the guy's awesome, I would never argue otherwise. But your argument for his greatness based on postseason totals has a ton of holes in it.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Absolutely. That's why I said the bolded part.
whoknew
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
If you're talking about modern closers that rarely pitch more than one inning, I don't think there is any other choice.And he was most certainly more important than Jeter. Most years, with or without either Jeter or Mo the Yanks make the playoffs. But once in the playoffs Mo would pitch in every game they had the lead, and some other games too, and often for more than one inning at a time. That contribution was significantly more valuable to the Yankees than Jeter's.'whoknew said:
Michael Brown
Footballguy
If only friggin Torre had brought him in to start the 8th inning of Game 5...'culdeus said:
whoknew
Footballguy
On what are you basing this opinion? Because Rivera has pitched 1200 innings in his career and has 55 WAR. Jeter has 85 in his career.
dparker713
Footballguy
Did it matter most years if the Yankees were a 98 win team or a 94 win team? No. What mattered was whether they were able to win 3 rounds of playoffs.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Mo doesn't have a lead to protect without the other 8 innings contributed by Jeter(and the others)
David Yudkin
Footballguy
All time post season saves:
1 - Rivera 42
2 - Brad Lidge 14
1 - Rivera 42
2 - Brad Lidge 14
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Side note. Including post season:
Rivera vs rest of MLB: 582 saves and 61 blown saves = 90.5% save percentage
Rivera vs BOS: 60 saves and 16 blown saves = 78.9% save percentage
Rivera vs rest of MLB: 582 saves and 61 blown saves = 90.5% save percentage
Rivera vs BOS: 60 saves and 16 blown saves = 78.9% save percentage
Eephus
Footballguy
Career post season appearances:1. Mariano Rivera 94 2. Jeff Nelson 55 3. Mike Stanton 534. Mike Timlin 465. Andy Pettitte 42
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
Saves
Who cares...
Who cares...
shadyridr
Footballguy
What Mo accomplished is amazing and hes definitely the greatest closer ever. What I dont understand is how everything seems to think this record will never be broken. Umm he just broke a 2 yr old record. Is it really that unfathomable that in the age of specialization someone 50 yrs from now breaks his record?
Eephus
Footballguy
Rivera has been remarkably consistent and has shown unusual longevity for a closer but he didn't record his first MLB save until the age of 27. The late innings closer has become a more defined role since the start of his career. Young players are now drafted as closers and are handed the role at a young age. The guy who'll break the record probably isn't active now but it's not inconceivable that someone who starts compiling saves at 22 or 23 will hit 600 saves in his late 30s.
RnR
Footballguy
Craig Kimbrel is off to a pretty good start, barring arm trouble of course.
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Eephus
Footballguy
B-R link to active SV leader listK-Rod leads players younger than 30 with 291 but with his delivery, I keep expecting his arm to detach at the shoulder and fly to the backstop. Street and Soria are age 27 with more than 150.
According to Bill James' Favorite Toy calculator, Rodriguez has a 12% chance of reaching 602. Soria and Papelbon trail with a 9% and 8% chance respectively. Kimbrel and Feliz don't have enough of a track record for the toy to be used.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Well I think its the fact that there doesn't seem to be longevity to this role. Lee Smith is the only other guy on the radar. I happen to agree with you, but just offering a rationale for speculation?
RnR
Footballguy
K-Rod was the first one that came to mind, I guess much of it will depend on where he lands with his next contract and if he's able to keep his arm attached. He's at a point where 30 saves per year until age 39 would put him on the doorstep. If he can give a few more years of 40+, that certainly helps his cause.I completely forgot about Feliz when I mentioned Kimbrel. I wonder if we'll get the opportunity to see that one play out, I have a feeling he is still destine for a starting rotation at some point in the near future.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
Secret Yankee Closer Election Set for April 8Extensive Security Planned for Friday's FuneralBy BILL SIMMONSTHE BRONX (April 6) -- Major league baseball on Wednesday set April 8 as the date for the historic start of the conclave to elect a successor to Mariano Rivera, as the Yankees made final arrangements for the funeral of a great career that is expected to draw millions of Yankee fans and world leaders to the Bronx.The decision came after the future Hall of Famer blew his second save in as many days against the team's biggest rival, the World Champion Red Sox, giving up five runs in the ninth, getting battered like a rented mule and ignominiously getting removed from the game in the middle of the inning, the fourth consecutive time he has blown a save to the Red Sox dating back to the 2004 ALCS. Fans at Yankee Stadium even booed the great closer on his way back to the dugout, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yankee fans are headed to hell.Yankees GM Brian Cashman said the Yankees would be sequestered in the team offices in the early afternoon to start the decision process for the next closer. Candidates include Oakland's Octavio Dotel, Detroit's Ugueth Urbina, current set-up man Flash Gordon, Rick Ankiel and Charlie Sheen. The Yankees will continue to use Rivera from the bullpen, but only in blowouts and games where the lead or deficit is 6 runs or more.If none of the candidates gets the required two-thirds majority after about 12 days, the Yankee braintrust may change procedure and elect the closer by simple majority. The date was set on the third hour of preparatory meetings of Yankee front office people who have converged on the Bronx ahead of Friday's funeral and burial of Rivera's career.Fans continued to flock to Yankee Stadium after Wednesday's game, jamming up streets as they waited to pay their final respects to Rivera, who has been lying in state of shock since the Red Sox hammered him off the field for the second straight day. More than 200,000 Yankee fans will have filed solemnly by the pinstriped body by the end of Wednesday night, at a rate of about 15,000-18,000 people an hour in a nearly around-the-clock procession, according to calculations by the Yankee front office.-- Posted: April 6, 2005, at 4:46 p.m. EST'wilked said:
mquinnjr
Footballguy
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/09/19/wfans-carton-mariano-booster-get-snippy-over-rivera-ave/
I'm a Phillies fan. Moreso than that, a baseball fan, even after the 2009 WS loss to the Yankees. With that said, Mariano is the GOAT at his position.
Good man, amazing closer. Add the freaking A after River Ave., if the people/fans want it bad enough, there's no reason to not do it. The above link just locks in for me that Carton is a total buffoon to me.
I'm a Phillies fan. Moreso than that, a baseball fan, even after the 2009 WS loss to the Yankees. With that said, Mariano is the GOAT at his position.
Good man, amazing closer. Add the freaking A after River Ave., if the people/fans want it bad enough, there's no reason to not do it. The above link just locks in for me that Carton is a total buffoon to me.
