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Mark Ingram (3 Viewers)

The expectations of Ingram are attached to his first round draft position.  There are not many starting RB's with athletic profiles as bad as Ingram.  He has no top end in speed and runs with very little pop despite adequate size.  I thought he would have better hands given his dad was a WR, but they are average too.  He was obviously over drafted.  He is better than Hightower, but not by a lot.  Hightower is pedestrian, but he bring a physicality that Ingram does not.  I don't think Payton hates Ingram, he just recognizes Ingram is not someone who should be the focal point of an offense.

 
Nero said:
The expectations of Ingram are attached to his first round draft position.  There are not many starting RB's with athletic profiles as bad as Ingram.  He has no top end in speed and runs with very little pop despite adequate size.  I thought he would have better hands given his dad was a WR, but they are average too.  He was obviously over drafted.  He is better than Hightower, but not by a lot.  Hightower is pedestrian, but he bring a physicality that Ingram does not.  I don't think Payton hates Ingram, he just recognizes Ingram is not someone who should be the focal point of an offense.
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But Hightower is someone who should be the focal point of an offense, but only sometimes- most times he hardly touches the ball.  :loco:

 
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Nero said:
The expectations of Ingram are attached to his first round draft position.  There are not many starting RB's with athletic profiles as bad as Ingram.  He has no top end in speed and runs with very little pop despite adequate size.  I thought he would have better hands given his dad was a WR, but they are average too.  He was obviously over drafted.  He is better than Hightower, but not by a lot.  Hightower is pedestrian, but he bring a physicality that Ingram does not.  I don't think Payton hates Ingram, he just recognizes Ingram is not someone who should be the focal point of an offense.
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Nobody thinks ingram was supposed to be the focal point of the offense.  that's brees.  we just want some normal rb usage.  which seems impossible

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
Pretty much what the entire world except for Peyton is wondering. 
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Correct.   But for our purposes in fantasy the why doesn't matter as much.  We want fantasy points.  If they're coming from Hightower I want town and start Hightower.  If Ingram I want to own and start Ingram.  I don't care and don't get emotionally attached.  It's clear payton doesn't think highly of Ingram and does think highly of Hightower and that's enough for me to go on.  The why is less important.  Let the NFL pundits debate their lives away about that on tv.  Let's just go for what wins us fantasy games! :)

 
Nero said:
The expectations of Ingram are attached to his first round draft position.  There are not many starting RB's with athletic profiles as bad as Ingram.  He has no top end in speed and runs with very little pop despite adequate size.  I thought he would have better hands given his dad was a WR, but they are average too.  He was obviously over drafted.  He is better than Hightower, but not by a lot.  Hightower is pedestrian, but he bring a physicality that Ingram does not.  I don't think Payton hates Ingram, he just recognizes Ingram is not someone who should be the focal point of an offense.
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His ADP was end of the 2nd.  :confused:

ETA - oh, you mean real life. 

 
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Not a lot of choice this week. Lamar Miller on a bye in one (next choice would be Bilal Powell), RYan Mathews as the best and only viable alternative option in another. Have to roll him out in two leagues for at least one more week

 
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Starts

Mark Ingram at 49ers: Ingram is coming off easily the worst game of his football career. He rushed three times for -9 yards against the Seahawks and was benched midway through the first quarter after losing a fumble. Tim Hightowerhandled lead-back duties the rest of the way, rushing for 102 yards on 26 carries. But he squandered numerous scoring opportunities, getting stuffed on five different goal-line touches. After the game, coach Sean Payton said he had confidence that Ingram would “bounce back,” but in the same breath added that Hightower “definitely” earned more work. ESPN’s Britt McHenry reported the Saints plan to use a backfield committee against San Francisco. Grrrreat. Another one of these to even further muddy a mucked up running back position in fantasy. If this was any other week against any other team, Ingram would be a recommended “sit.” But with six teams on bye, and the 49ers’ run “defense” on the schedule, Ingram owners need to step back up to the plate and take another swing. San Francisco is 30th in Football Outsiders’ run-defense DVOA and dead last in fantasy points allowed to running backs. Opposing running backs are averaging a weekly rushing line of 30.4-162.3-1.4 at a 5.33 YPC clip against the 49ers. Both Ingram and Hightower are must-starts in this one, even if they split the work right down the middle.

 
need2know said:
Nobody thinks ingram was supposed to be the focal point of the offense.  that's brees.  we just want some normal rb usage.  which seems impossible
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Prior to being benched last week, his usage was normal. He was averaging 14.3 carries and 3.6 receptions  per game. You want stud RB usuage, but Ingram is no stud.

 
He was averaging 14.3 carries and 3.6 receptions  per game
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Hightower averages much more .... its almost like Peyton uses Hightower as a RB1 when he uses him, which is rarely .... and Ingram as a RB2 when he uses him, which is the vast majority of the time.

Just bizarre to treat each RB so differently, I've never seen another team do it. 

 
With DJ on bye, I think I'm going back to the well one more time with Ingram. Asiata other option. 

 
Bloom has him RB12 this week, with that many bye's I can't see many benching him.  I am for Booker but I still think he has a good game with the 49ers not being the best against the run.

 
Gottabesweet said:
Bloom has him RB12 this week, with that many bye's I can't see many benching him.  I am for Booker but I still think he has a good game with the 49ers not being the best against the run.
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I agree that Ingram may still be an ok start this week for injury and bye-strapped teams, but you have to go back to Week 7 last season to find Ingram's last 100-yard rushing game (something Hightower accomplished last week, albeit on 26 carries), and even a week earlier to find Ingram's last multi-TD game.  Ingram's ceiling was already capped, but he was a reliable weekly play because he at least had a decent floor.  It is now difficult to even have confidence in Ingram's floor.  Until we get some clarity on the workload split, I am hesitant to use Ingram (or Hightower) as anything more than a desperation play, even in what is a great matchup against the Niners this week.

 
I managed to pick up Hightower in the league where I own Ingram, and I'm honestly considering starting Antone Smith over both of them (.5 PPR).

I know all about the matchup, but I don't know how they split this.  Part of me says play them both.  Part of me says play Ingram.  Part of me says Hightower.  And part of me says avoid like hell until we have more clarity... matchups be damned.

Someone talk me out of benching both these dudes.

 
JFS171 said:
I managed to pick up Hightower in the league where I own Ingram, and I'm honestly considering starting Antone Smith over both of them (.5 PPR).

I know all about the matchup, but I don't know how they split this.  Part of me says play them both.  Part of me says play Ingram.  Part of me says Hightower.  And part of me says avoid like hell until we have more clarity... matchups be damned.

Someone talk me out of benching both these dudes.
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The way I look at it, Ingram has been splitting carries with other members of the team all season. As long as he's not benched, he should probably get his normal load of around 16-18 touches in a great match-up. I'm starting him.

 
DJounson on the BYE - I'm starting Ingram and Asiata, rolling out Snead or Coleman at Flex and leaving Hightower on my bench.

unless there's an announcement before sunday's game that Hightower is starting, or course. 

 
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
Forgetting just about our own fantasy needs, this clearly must suck for Ingram. Imagine he's feeling pretty slighted for seeing the usage of other backs, fumble or no fumble.

Feel bad as he definitely has talent, and made the bad choice to stay with NO when he clearly would have been utilized better on pretty much any other team.
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If we are really forgetting fantasy and keeping it ... ahem ... real. He makes 250k per game. Don't feel too badly for Peyton lengthening his career. he got paid 83k per carry in this game. Usually he only makes about 15k per carry. It kinda makes him seem smart considering the avg rb lasts less than 3 years in the nfl and makes about 1/4 of Ingram annual salary. His agent advised him well to stay in NO, especially considering his usage.

IF he continues at his 2016 carry pace he will avg 154 carries per year for 6 years, twice the avg career length already, and still having less than 1000 total carried to his name. He could go on to a 10 or 12 year career at this pace making 4 mil per year.

You feel sorry for this guy? I think most would envy his situation. lol

 
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JFS171 said:
I managed to pick up Hightower in the league where I own Ingram, and I'm honestly considering starting Antone Smith over both of them (.5 PPR).

I know all about the matchup, but I don't know how they split this.  Part of me says play them both.  Part of me says play Ingram.  Part of me says Hightower.  And part of me says avoid like hell until we have more clarity... matchups be damned.

Someone talk me out of benching both these dudes.
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Was considering A. Smith myself, but I think A. Smith vs. P. Barber vs. M. James is an even worse crapshoot in a lousier matchup.

Taking my lumps with Ingram or Hightower depending on what the tea leaves are saying come Sunday.

 
JFS171 said:
I managed to pick up Hightower in the league where I own Ingram, and I'm honestly considering starting Antone Smith over both of them (.5 PPR).

I know all about the matchup, but I don't know how they split this.  Part of me says play them both.  Part of me says play Ingram.  Part of me says Hightower.  And part of me says avoid like hell until we have more clarity... matchups be damned.

Someone talk me out of benching both these dudes.
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Just one guy talking here, but I don't think Barber or James is a threat for Smith's touches.  I like the idea of tonight being a shootout, and like the idea of getting a piece of this game.  And Smith is a big play guy, has shown that wheneve anyone has given him the ball.

Of course, it's a Thursday game, and I generally try and sit players in these stupid things.

 
massraider said:
Just one guy talking here, but I don't think Barber or James is a threat for Smith's touches. I like the idea of tonight being a shootout, and like the idea of getting a piece of this game. And Smith is a big play guy, has shown that wheneve anyone has given him the ball.

Of course, it's a Thursday game, and I generally try and sit players in these stupid things.
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I'm starting Winston, Evans, Smith and Brate in one league. Talk about systemic risk.

For the sake of staying on topic, I think both Ingram and Hightower make for RB2/flex plays this week. Words cannot describe how bad SF has been at stopping the run this year. In an alternate universe where Martin stayed healthy, this post consists of me making a joke about how even Jacquizz Rodgers could run on them.

 
SameSongNDance said:
I'm starting Winston, Evans, Smith and Brate in one league. Talk about systemic risk.
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Yeah, this week I have Evans in one league & Julio/MattyIce in the other. 

Here's hoping for a 64-56 final score. 

For the sake of staying on topic, I think both Ingram and Hightower make for RB2/flex plays this week. Words cannot describe how bad SF has been at stopping the run this year. In an alternate universe where Martin stayed healthy, this post consists of me making a joke about how even Jacquizz Rodgers could run on them.
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This, except for some inexplicable reason Brees will still throw it 50+ times and no RB will end up with any value. Because not making sense is the only thing that Sean Payton ever makes sense with these days. 

 
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LOL, dude was a headache last year before he got hurt and more of a headache this year with the fumbling issues.  His head coach's play calling (IMHO) rather than using Ingram as a typical RB1 is the most frustrating part.  Giving the ball to Kuhn or throwing repeatedly inside the 5 yard line rather than feeding Ingram has cost his owners on multiple occasions.  I'm forced to play him this week and hoping the critics and/or experts are correct that he was being taught a lesson and will be re-installed as the lead back.  

 
The vultures of Ingram, the instant benching and the amount if carries Hightower got all tells me Payton does not like Ingram.
He might have wanted a reason and got it. Just my speculation, but its telling these things happened.

 
sandlotshrink said:
LOL, dude was a headache last year before he got hurt and more of a headache this year with the fumbling issues.  His head coach's play calling (IMHO) rather than using Ingram as a typical RB1 is the most frustrating part.  Giving the ball to Kuhn or throwing repeatedly inside the 5 yard line rather than feeding Ingram has cost his owners on multiple occasions.  I'm forced to play him this week and hoping the critics and/or experts are correct that he was being taught a lesson and will be re-installed as the lead back.  
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I disagree about last season, he was a solid RB1 in PPR before his injury. His worst week being 9.4 @ Philly. Despite his low TD total, he was involved in the passing game which made him very consistent week to week. This hasn't been happening so far this year, which is frustrating to say the least. 

 
Starting Hightower with moderate confidence in my redraft league tomorrow.  Starting Ingram out of sheer necessity in my dynasty tomorrow.  

 
Right now starting Ingram over Hightower and L. Murray.

Rationale:

* Thinking Ingram gets at least 50/50 timeshare with Hightower if not 60/40. Both should do well against SF run D but have to think Payton doesn't want to lose Ingram for the rest of the season. They need him.

* L. Murray the "starter" but getting 50% of touches against Denver D probably worse than Ingram in SF matchup.

 
The message has been sent to Ingram - hang on to the ball or else! Belichick style. I can see both Ingram and Hightower getting 12-13 carries each and both being somewhat productive in this game. I mean, without a whole lot of other decent options, many are going to have to play each of these guys this week. 50/50 split I predict, unless the "hot hand" takes over - lol.

 
WheelsUp said:
The vultures of Ingram, the instant benching and the amount if carries Hightower got all tells me Payton does not like Ingram.
He might have wanted a reason and got it. Just my speculation, but its telling these things happened.
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Payton likes Ingram, a lot, but it's that kind of move he made last week that makes Saints fans love him.

He's been about accountability since he got here. He will put a free agent in over a 1st round draft pick. He does not care he just wants it to work.

 
kyoun1e said:
Right now starting Ingram over Hightower and L. Murray.

Rationale:

* Thinking Ingram gets at least 50/50 timeshare with Hightower if not 60/40. Both should do well against SF run D but have to think Payton doesn't want to lose Ingram for the rest of the season. They need him.

* L. Murray the "starter" but getting 50% of touches against Denver D probably worse than Ingram in SF matchup.
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I think 60/40 is a good possibility.

And LMurray is not a bad name to mention as I could very well see Ingram getting the goal line carries. even if Hightower is in between the 20s. Then again maybe they handle whole series. The SF game is nice because both can do well while we see how it plays out.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Payton likes Ingram, a lot, but it's that kind of move he made last week that makes Saints fans love him.

He's been about accountability since he got here. He will put a free agent in over a 1st round draft pick. He does not care he just wants it to work.
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So he will bench Brees for a bonehead int or a 2+ int game?

 
If I had Ingram and Hightower I would start Ingram.  I only have Hightower and am starting him because my other rbs are on bye and Hightower was the best available.

 
DansRams said:
So he will bench Brees for a bonehead int or a 2+ int game?
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Will he bench a future HOF'er who has driven the franchise and a championship over the last 11 years for 2 bad throws? No.

Will he bench a former 1st round pick who hasn't made a Pro Bowl and may have cost his team one game and may cost another? Yes.

Another 1st round pick, last years, Anthony, has been benched for a good part of the season.

If you want to make the point there's one guy he won't bench, ok fine.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Will he bench a future HOF'er who has driven the franchise and a championship over the last 11 years for 2 bad throws? No.

Will he bench a former 1st round pick who hasn't made a Pro Bowl and may have cost his team one game and may cost another? Yes.

Another 1st round pick, last years, Anthony, has been benched for a good part of the season.

If you want to make the point there's one guy he won't bench, ok fine.
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If he's really about accountability then he's sending a terrible message, because To say Ingram hasn't made a pro bowl and may have cost his team a win is kind of rodiculous. 

Taking them one at a time:

1. He may have cost his team a win 

At Seattle, having a great game, with his team down two scores, ingram had a ReTd already and was certainly helping his team in their efforts to win the game, Ingram was handed the ball on 1st and goal at the 4 or 5. He ran hard, clearly protecting the football, and a Seattle defender hit a bullseye with a punch/tackle. It's what Seattle does, and it was executed perfectly. No RB in the league can hold that ball. I'd say that was 99.999999999% the Seattle defender helping his team to win the game and .000000000001 Ingram "costing his team a win".  

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they get in that 2-score hole specifically because Brees threw a pick-6 to Eric Berry?  Seems like HOFer Brees did more to cost his team that win. 

2. Hasn't made a pro bowl

Pretty hard to do that when criminally underutilized and benched for a fumble after 3 carries. 

If Ingram had a 20-25 touch a week role on a team with an OL that could run block or an OC even remotely interested in committing to the run, I'm reasonably sure he has the ability to make a pro bowl. Last I checked it's a team effort and blaming Ingram for not making a pro bowl is a bit like blaming Barry Sanders for the Lions not winning a Super Bowl. ;)   

 
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