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Mark Ingram (8 Viewers)

BigSteelThrill said:
Didn't watch the game huh?

Hightower started and was doing well (as was the Saints offense) and he had many more carries then Ingram. On 3rd series Ingram entered got 1 carry.

Next drive (4th by NO) they split carries. End result is 21-3 Saints lead with both backs having 1 TD. 11-3 edge to Tim in the 2nd quarter.

Then the "hiccup" occurred ... Mark Ingram rips off a 75 yard TD with 5 minutes left in the half. He hadn't gone past 17 yards in a run all season, until he did from the back-up position.

From that point on it was an almost even split.
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Except for the eyeball test - maybe you didn't watch the game? Hightower was his usual "3 yards and a cloud of dust" with every carry while against the same defense, Ingram was breaking tackles, running guys over, hitting the crease with violence - the talent display was night and day. He couldn't be stopped, whereas Thomas was quite stoppable. The 75 yard run wasn't Ingram's only long rush. You make it sound flukey, whereas he ripped off regular gains of 5, 7, 10 yards. 

Ingram ran like a man possessed - or at least one who's pissed that he's splitting carries.

it'll be interesting to see what Payton does next week - I'd bet Hightower still has a role but whatever doghouse Ingram was in, I'm pretty sure this performance got him out of it. 

 
kyoun1e said:
This is probably the best sell high moment in fantasy history.
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Only if you're in a league of dimwits who don't own a tv or have acces to the internet. It also helps if they haven't paid attention to football this year. 

Anyone with a brain knows they just played a tissue paper run D, & that Hightower had a substantial role.

Assuming a normal talent and intelligence level in your league, you'll be trying to sell high and everyone will be trying to buy low.  Chances are good you're going to insult them with an offer since they know the story of Ingram's 2016.

IMO the only move here is to wait another game and see what happens. Ingram goes 75/1 witb 3-4 receptions against the Broncos, then people will start to believe it's a turnaround and you can sell.

right now he's tainted goods. 

 
I would be buying Ingram now if the opportunity arose.  He ran with a lot energy yesterday.  I think that is exactly what Payton was attempting to do, tick him off and getting him running angry again. I think Hightower still gets carries, but Ingram is both more talented and more versatile.  He'll be back to what we expected of him.  As a Saints fan I am thrilled with the way this worked out.  Two victories and a recharged Ingram.  People ragging Payton are just mad that their fantasy RB got benched.  But coaching-wise, this was outstanding.

 
LionOfGosforth said:
Exactly. The concept of "buy low" (under-performing stud) or "sell high" doesn't exist in most leagues i'm in. People tend to pay attention to why a player is available, I doubt there's ever been a more suspicious demographic than FF players when it comes to trades.
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I agree. People always seem skeptical when I try and make moves in my league for someone underperforming.

 
tricky92 said:
Bottom line is that Ingram still touched the ball within 2 of his average normal touches week to week. He's always been in a committee. It's just that now Hightower seems to be dominating what is usually spread around quite a bit. Also, Brees attempted less passes than normal, and those snaps also went to Hightower. If Ingram keeps getting his normal touches, I guess I won't complain, especially if Hightower is tenderizing the defense with this hard fought sub 4 yards per carry.
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He only got his "normal" touches because they were dominating a terrible team and ran the ball more than they have in years- that's not happening again anytime soon.

More important (and concerning) is that Ingram got less than 40% of the RB carries in the game despite clearly dominating. Yes, he's always been in a committee (technically all RBs are), but he's always been the 1A- IF that is no longer the case, he's going to be unstartable when they face real teams.

 
tricky92 said:
Yes, I'm expecting to be right back where we were with Ingram this season, and that's a solid RB2 who has some really nice weeks and some middling weeks. It is what it is, but I don't think it's the disaster that people are making it out to be. Good luck trying to sell high, though.
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Agree on all counts.

if he's your RB2, set it and forget it.

As a compliment to a good RB1 he's capable of winning you weeks.

As a RB1, he's capable of losing you weeks.  

but then again, this wasn't exactly a secret headed into the season so I'm not sure why it's news  now.  

The last few weeks were tumultuous - this had the look of a get-well game for the saints running game. 

For me, Ingram is a guy I hold and hope for 13-17 points a week as my RB2 - and if he gives me more it's a bonus. 

If anyone is able to "sell high" please do post what you got for him. 

 
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MattFancy said:
I agree. People always seem skeptical when I try and make moves in my league for someone underperforming.
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Same - and doubly so when trying to move one of my underperforming players immediately after a big game.

thats kind of a n00b move, and I'm pretty sure I'd be ridiculed for it by my trade partner. 

 
humpback said:
He only got his "normal" touches because they were dominating a terrible team and ran the ball more than they have in years- that's not happening again anytime soon.

More important (and concerning) is that Ingram got less than 40% of the RB carries in the game despite clearly dominating. Yes, he's always been in a committee (technically all RBs are), but he's always been the 1A- IF that is no longer the case, he's going to be unstartable when they face real teams.
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Drop him then. 

 
tricky92 said:
Let's bet that he has at least 16 touches this coming week. 
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Side Note: Not all touches are created equal. Opportunity share is going to be something to monitor also.

EDIT: Saints' upcoming sched isn't the best, but the fantasy playoff sched is yummy.

Week 10 Denver

Week 11 @Carolina

Week 12 LA Rams

Week 13 DET

----------------------------

Week 14 @TB

Week 15 @ARZ

Week 16 TB

 
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One of the most interesting questions will be whether the Saints continue to run the ball as they did this past weekend, or if they go back to a heavy pass oriented team (of course the game flow will determine some of this).  If the former, then both Ingram and Hightower should have significant roles and the opportunity to be RB1s or RB2s...but if it's the latter, then the split between them will be crucial in determining value (if, indeed, either of them could be at best a RB2).

 
humpback said:
Nah, I'd rather trade him to some sucker who thinks that everything is good because he got the same number of touches as normal.
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You'd have to play in a league of idiots to do that. In my leagues people follow a 9-week storyline and understand that the 49ers run defense sucks.

;)  

 
tricky92 said:
Let's bet that he has at least 16 touches this coming week. 
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That's a coin flip because we don't know how Payton is going to divvy it up. If he only gets ~40% of the RB workload again, I'd gladly take the under, which was the point of my post- last week was an anomaly for the Saints running game as a whole because they were playing a historically bad defense.

 
humpback said:
That's a coin flip because we don't know how Payton is going to divvy it up. If he only gets ~40% of the RB workload again, I'd gladly take the under, which was the point of my post- last week was an anomaly for the Saints running game as a whole because they were playing a historically bad defense.
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So, you're taking under then? 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
You'd have to play in a league of idiots to do that. In my leagues people follow a 9-week storyline and understand that the 49ers run defense sucks.

;)  
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YMMV, One man's trash is another man's treasure, downgrade 1 area to upgrade another, etc.

There are multiple ways to make a trade work, I usually make deals that people ask WTF am I doing (hurt short-term but benefit long-term). Just depends on the size of the league, assets you have and of course the other owners.

 
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Synthesizer said:
He has looked like a pretty selfish player this year.  Doesn't seem too concerned with the rest of the team, he's all about himself.
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I think he has every reason to be upset. At first, when he scored the TD, it almost looked to me that Ingram was mad at himself that he may have let go of the ball too early in the EZ which risked calling into question a hint that he may have fumbled. Didn't materialize, maybe I was looking too deeply into this, but that's what it looked like to me.

After his reception TD, though, seems he was pissed at the world.

Don't blame him. His coach clearly doesn't prefer using him even when he's hugely effective.

Is it selfish? Maybe -- Hightower actually ran well, most notably in the first drive to a TD. 

But I don't blame Ingram one bit. I don't think his clear frustration points to him not caring about the team -- he was pretty self-critical when he was benched about needing to be better -- but rather about his team (most specifically its coach) not caring about him and the impact he can contribute to the team winning.

 
MattFancy said:
I agree. People always seem skeptical when I try and make moves in my league for someone underperforming.
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Yup. It's a constant in most leagues i've ever been in. I try to sell a stud who isn't performing and I don't see it improving, they want to know why i'm selling, they're not leaping at the opportunity. The suspicion levels fly through the roof. Ingram is a tough case right now. People say "oh easy sell high, best time ever" etc but most people are aware of the factors involved and paranoid about them, rightly so. Ingram is my RB1 (Hightower on my bench) and it's the way it's going to stay i'd guess. Besides, outside of the top 10 or so, he has as much potential as most.

 
The Frankman said:
errr... wanna check that quote again? I only have one account on this forum. :unsure:
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 Sorry, maybe I was responding to someone else thinking I was responding to you… Or maybe I was responding to you thinking I was responding to someone else. If that's the case, my apologies. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
Except for the eyeball test - maybe you didn't watch the game? Hightower was his usual "3 yards and a cloud of dust" with every carry while against the same defense, Ingram was breaking tackles, running guys over, hitting the crease with violence - the talent display was night and day. He couldn't be stopped, whereas Thomas was quite stoppable. The 75 yard run wasn't Ingram's only long rush. You make it sound flukey, whereas he ripped off regular gains of 5, 7, 10 yards. 

Ingram ran like a man possessed - or at least one who's pissed that he's splitting carries.

it'll be interesting to see what Payton does next week - I'd bet Hightower still has a role but whatever doghouse Ingram was in, I'm pretty sure this performance got him out of it. 
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Actually, I did watch it.   And what you said was correct.  He did run better then he had all season. I never said otherwise.

I think Sean Payton deserves a ton of credit. And you have to question why it took the benching to get Ingram to run so well.

 
BigSteelThrill said:
Actually, I did watch it.   And what you said was correct.  He did run better then he had all season. I never said otherwise.

I think Sean Payton deserves a ton of credit. And you have to question why it took the benching to get Ingram to run so well.
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Sorry, maybe I misunderstood.

honestly I'd love to know the answer to that question - it's been one of the more frustrating situations from a fantasy perspective.

I guess having both might not be too bad, so those who handcuffed him benefit now. 

But that benching was jacked up. The lack of use before it was worse.

 
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BigSteelThrill said:
I think Sean Payton deserves a ton of credit. And you have to question why it took the benching to get Ingram to run so well.
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You are going to give the credit to Payton rather than them playing against the 32nd ranked team against the run?  A defense that is giving up 50 yards more per game than the 31st ranked team.  Seriously, that's how bad the SF defense has been this year.

 
Synthesizer said:
You are going to give the credit to Payton rather than them playing against the 32nd ranked team against the run?  A defense that is giving up 50 yards more per game than the 31st ranked team.  Seriously, that's how bad the SF defense has been this year.
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And Hightower still averaged less than 4 yards per carry.

 
Synthesizer said:
You are going to give the credit to Payton rather than them playing against the 32nd ranked team against the run?  A defense that is giving up 50 yards more per game than the 31st ranked team.  Seriously, that's how bad the SF defense has been this year.
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As a David Johnson owner in multiple leagues. :pickle:

 
Does anyone think Hightower is a safe play this weekend in PPR? Or go with better options if you have them? Debating a fringe WR (Corey Coleman or the Jets Q guy) over Hightower just due to the uncertainty.

 
NajehHejan said:
Does anyone think Hightower is a safe play this weekend in PPR? Or go with better options if you have them? Debating a fringe WR (Corey Coleman or the Jets Q guy) over Hightower just due to the uncertainty.
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There's no such thing as a safe play for any RB. Hightower will get short yardage and Denver's D was committing PI left & right against the Raiders, so Hightower is a great bet for a cheap TD. 

So I rate NO RBs like this:

i thing Ingram is a strong RB2 at home against a suddenly weak Denver run defense, and if Talib and other Denver secondary players are either out or aren't healthy, Brees arm will keep the defense out of the box - IMO it's gonna be a long game for Denver, and a good place to start Ingram.

As for Hightower, he's a good bet for ~40/1 with maybe a reception. RB3/Flex play for sure. 

FWIW I'm rolling out Hightower at Flex again this week over Coleman (my other option), so that's my take on your specific WSIS question.  Starting both Ingram & Hightower worked out great for me this week at RB1-2, but now I get DJohnson back so not as critical a decision to start Hightower as a flex player. 

Good luck

 
I didn't like that he was the one out there killing the clock in garbage time, that is typically a good job for the back up. Hightower was clearly the starter in this game. I'm torn going forward, I have good options, so he will likely be on the bench for this week. 

 
Another thing that has changed over the past 2 games is the removal of cadet.  he had no carries and 1 rec last week.  similar the week before. He was a huge problem for ingram.   more of an even split between 2 rbs and ingram out alot on thiRd down.  my money s on ingram to out produce hightower every week going forward 

 
need2know said:
Another thing that has changed over the past 2 games is the removal of cadet.  he had no carries and 1 rec last week.  similar the week before. He was a huge problem for ingram.   more of an even split between 2 rbs and ingram out alot on thiRd down.  my money s on ingram to out produce hightower every week going forward 
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Oddly, it might work out well for both Ingram and Hightower. Hightower becomes the traditional banger and Ingram is used as a blend of a banger and satellite back. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Oddly, it might work out well for both Ingram and Hightower. Hightower becomes the traditional banger and Ingram is used as a blend of a banger and satellite back. 
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Yep - I commented on this on Sunday - having both in my lineup due to BYE, I'm now going to Flex Hightower and start Ingram as a RB2. I think they'll both contribute, and it'll lessen the pain of having Hightower vulture the TDs from Ingram at the stripe. 

If they keep up the split, that is. 

 
Looking at the highlights and stats. Hightower was only good because of the volume. Ingram looked good. He made guys miss and showed some speed. Hightower just ran hard and fast while offering  no else. 

 
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