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Mass Shootings Thread (3 Viewers)

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KarmaPolice said:
Dude, you don't know the answer either.  You said you "are betting" that's the case.  
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maybe I know enough about this subject to kinda already know the answer and wanted you to find it yourself but since you are showing no effort ...

https://www.foxnews.com/us/where-do-criminals-get-guns

“The majority of firearms used in criminal activity are obtained illegally,” said David Chianese, a correspondent at Law Enforcement Today, published author and former NYPD detective. “Stricter or additional gun laws do not reduce gun violence.”

A 2019 survey conducted by the Department of Justice (DOJ) found that some 43 percent of criminals had bought their firearms on the black market, 6 percent acquired them via theft, and 10 percent made a retail purchase – 0.8 percent purchased a weapon from a gun show.

 
Although the fox news (surprise) article is all over the place with its cherry-picking, I'm glad SC cited an article that said this:

Chianese said that, with regards to where guns are stolen from, the answer is easy.

“Lazy and incompetent gun owners,” he charged. “It’s literally that simple. Unsecured or improper secured firearms are one of the largest contributors to illegal guns on the street.”

Funny SC has repeatedly parroted the NRA position against secure storage laws, but cites  this source.

This article is also consistent with the study I posted that 8% of retail sales are responsible for a majority of the guns used in crimes.  Thanks to SC for admitting the truth for once and agreeing with me.

 
-fish- said:
Although the fox news (surprise) article is all over the place with its cherry-picking, I'm glad SC cited an article that said this:

Chianese said that, with regards to where guns are stolen from, the answer is easy.

“Lazy and incompetent gun owners,” he charged. “It’s literally that simple. Unsecured or improper secured firearms are one of the largest contributors to illegal guns on the street.”

Funny SC has repeatedly parroted the NRA position against secure storage laws, but cites  this source.

This article is also consistent with the study I posted that 8% of retail sales are responsible for a majority of the guns used in crimes.  Thanks to SC for admitting the truth for once and agreeing with me.
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blame someone for being robbed

man that's a fantastic view and totally ignores the core problem (again) which are criminals

unbelievable 

but again its ILLEGAL activity that results in people getting guns - not legal

Richard Schoeberl, program chair at the School of Social Sciences, Criminal Justice and Homeland Security at The Justice Center in Tennessee, said the “majority of the guns used in criminal acts were either stolen or obtained from an underground market on the street.”

why didn't you admit to those facts as well ?

 
I can look it up later too, but I was wondering the other night the % of break ins that are correlated to people trying to steal guns along with drugs.   Does owning the item for protection also make you more prone to the incident you are trying to protect yourself from? 

 
KarmaPolice said:
I can look it up later too, but I was wondering the other night the % of break ins that are correlated to people trying to steal guns along with drugs.   Does owning the item for protection also make you more prone to the incident you are trying to protect yourself from? 
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it is twice as likely that a gun will be stolen than used in self-defense.  we've been over that a dozen times.  glad SC is finally admitting these facts.

 
BladeRunner said:
Yeah, that would be cool.  :thumbup:

You know what else would be cool?  If they also built into the Constitution a way to make it not necessarily difficult, but hard to change said Constitution easily.  That way, people can't make quick changes based on a whim or how they're feeling that day.

That would be super neat if they did that.
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None of which has anything to so with the inane suggestion that if there are parts of the constitution you don't love or you might wish to see changed you should just leave the country, which was the suggestion being responded to.  The founding fathers never intended for the constitution to be immutable, or to never be questioned.  Some people need this pointed out to them, over and over.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I can look it up later too, but I was wondering the other night the % of break ins that are correlated to people trying to steal guns along with drugs.   Does owning the item for protection also make you more prone to the incident you are trying to protect yourself from? 
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I don't know that there are any good studies/stats on that.

I mean nobody tracks how many times criminals decide to not go into a home because it appears to be a gun owners home, right? 

my buddy showed his gun to would be car jackers and they ran ....... that never was entered into anything, never recorded ........ how many times a day does people defending themselves with weapons NOT get recorded ?

its significant and its important

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/02/us/florida-deputies-shooting-teen/index.html

-fish-  it seems would have ya'll blame the owner of this house and guns ......... when the truth is 100% of the blame falls on those two little thugs.

-fish- would have people forget that more people die from beatings than are killed with rifles. He would have you not know the facts on just how few guns are really acquired legally than used in murders. I don't think -fish- will talk much about how there are 80-100 million guns owners .. and each year, maybe only a few thousand of those legal law abiding people commit murders with those guns. Its literally a very very small %

I don't think -fish- wants to talk about all the laws and rules passed in the last 20 years that has resulted in little reductions in murders much and why even more rules/laws would now magically matter. 

I don't remember -fish- talking much about why inner cities are so violent or why people in general are. That's the problem isn't it? I mean really ?

Anytime a problem needs addressed, looking at the core issues should be primary. Democrats ignores the core problems and I'm not sure why.

 
parrot said:
None of which has anything to so with the inane suggestion that if there are parts of the constitution you don't love or you might wish to see changed you should just leave the country, which was the suggestion being responded to.  The founding fathers never intended for the constitution to be immutable, or to never be questioned.  Some people need this pointed out to them, over and over.  
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what Rights would you give up to get violent people from committing violent acts ? I'm very curious what YOU would be willing to give up

 
https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-bidens-atf-pick-provides-his-definition-of-an-assault-weapon-his-proposed-ban-would-outlaw-most-rifles-in-america?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro&fbclid=IwAR3vRUL2SOaQAq6_XMMT0J82cHNUTQ1RI9VUDqDRKPDh4DRxMVZzNiFviaM

“So you’re asking us to ban ‘assault weapons,’ we have to write legislation. Can you tell me what is an ‘assault weapon?'” Cotton asked. “How would you define it if you were the head of the ATF? How have you defined it over the last several years in your role as a gun control advocate?”

According to Chipman, he can only recall one instance where the department has defined what an “assault weapon” actually is. “ATF, in that program, has defined an ‘assault rifle’ as any semi-automatic rifle capable of accepting a detachable magazine above the caliber of .22, which would include a .223, which is, you know, largely the AR-15 round.”

That's Biden's pick ATF nominee David Chipman - -fish- has repeatedly promised the Govt hasn't and won't take guns and I will continually link to show they have and they will. The above response would "ban" millions of deer hunting rifles - tens of millions of guns - if such a definition was chose by ATF / Biden ....

 
squistion said:
:mellow:

How could they?
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right

but they DO exist

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/

almost 500 pages of examples in the above

that were reported

how many go unreported then ?   for someone to say "it is twice as likely that a gun will be stolen than used in self-defense" is blatantly biased thinking isn't it ?

yes, I know the "studies" ........... but as you pointed out, there are no studies or ways to see all the times self defense happens that isn't cataloged

 
It sort of feels like we should focus on having a database for understanding these stats and trends and to hold law abiding gun owners accountable. 

 
Stealthycat said:
how many go unreported then ?   for someone to say "it is twice as likely that a gun will be stolen than used in self-defense" is blatantly biased thinking isn't it ?

yes, I know the "studies" ........... but as you pointed out, there are no studies or ways to see all the times self defense happens that isn't cataloged
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There is no way to realistically track this and all you can point to is anecdotal stories.

 
squistion said:
There is no way to realistically track this and all you can point to is anecdotal stories.
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but we know it happens

anti-gun sites/people don't want anyone to believe guns can be good - which is a bit ironic since the same people depend on the police with guns for their protection !

pro-gun places say things like this

https://fee.org/articles/guns-prevent-thousands-of-crimes-every-day-research-show/

Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Most often, the gun is never fired, and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.

Every year, 400,000 life-threatening violent crimes are prevented using firearms.

60 percent of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. Forty percent of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed. 

Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.

Fewer than 1 percent of firearms are used in the commission of a crime.

 
squistion said:
There is no way to realistically track this and all you can point to is anecdotal stories.
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I'm going to go with the published studies from Harvard instead of SC making stuff up.    It was linked above.  

There were 1.4 million reported gun thefts from 2010-2018.   The estimate for total gun thefts from 2012-2017 is 1.8 million.   Also linked previously. 

No study from any reputable source estimates defensive gun use above half of that, meaning it's twice as likely a gun will be stolen than used defensively.   This has been well established over the years and consistent across multiple studies.

Pesky math.

 
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KarmaPolice said:
I can look it up later too, but I was wondering the other night the % of break ins that are correlated to people trying to steal guns along with drugs.   Does owning the item for protection also make you more prone to the incident you are trying to protect yourself from? 
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I’m not sure about break-ins, but risk of homicide increases in homes with guns, especially intimate partner homicide.

Collectively, there’s no good data to show guns improve safety - it’s just an emotional response that makes gun owners feel safer.

 
Terminalxylem said:
I’m not sure about break-ins, but risk of homicide increases in homes with guns, especially intimate partner homicide.

Collectively, there’s no good data to show guns improve safety - it’s just an emotional response that makes gun owners feel safer.
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Thanks.  

New stats about the bolded, but wondered about the other.  I would guess a lot of break-ins are are for jewelry/guns/drugs.  

Was trying to find the stats/article I was finding while arguing about break-ins with SC in the other thread.  I vividly remember home stats being oversold because the stats for break ins were including rental properties, hotel/motel, and businesses.  

 
The Z Machine said:
Agreed. Let's ban the actual firearms then. 

Repeal the second amendment. 
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we could ban every firearm .... and all the violent people, the suicidal people, the evil and mean people .... you've not addressed them at all

you've literally done nothing - why would you ignore the core problem ?

 
Terminalxylem said:
Collectively, there’s no good data to show guns improve safety - it’s just an emotional response that makes gun owners feel safer.
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there is truth to that but the same can be said of a lot of things - but feeling safer is a very real feeling and has substance and .... its our Constitutional Right as well and, there are many many self defenses happening and people have a right to defend themselves don't they ?

 
The Z Machine said:
Millions on millions on millions.
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lets say 300,000,000 guns

last year, how many of those legally owned guns were used in murders? 

5,000? 10,000 ?  lets go with 15,000

0.00005 % of the above scenario are being used wrong

99.99995 are not

Do you focus really hard on the 0.00005% all the time ?

 
There are probably more like 450,000,000 guns in the USA

and more like 1,000 to 2,000 legally purchased guns used for murders every year

and rifles? those numbers are more like 0.000001

 
The Z Machine said:
Why do we focus on the 0.00005% of virons that actually infect people?  There are so many that don't cause infection!
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because viron's are the core cause of the problem maybe ?

see, now you're talking

we don't focus on the 300 million cars in the USA and place crazy breathing apparatus's into every one to stop the 1.5 million drunk drivers arrested every year do we ?

we have common sense car and alcohol sales laws, .............. and guess what? we have common sense gun laws too

we also focus on the CORE problems - alcoholism, underage drinking etc. We don't hold Budweiser accountable for a guy drinking Bud Light and driving drunk. We don't ban certain beer's because they're used more often in drunk driving incidents. 

We DO have harsh penalties for drunk driving - that's helped. Education on drunk driving has helped

but lets be honest - American's want booze and cars and if we have 40-50,000 dead people every years as collateral damage? we're ok with that

aren't we ?

 
BladeRunner said:
Fish will be in here momentarily cherry picking some stats to prove you wrong.  He's just waiting for the DNC to get back to him with his talking points for the day.   Any minute now.
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aww, shucks.  no need to cherry pick.  he chose his metric.  #1 on the list, Republican-led city with loose gun laws: Mobile, Alabama.  

thanks Max!

 
it's really a silly narrative, anyway.  the GOP is losing urban areas countrywide and has been for years.  cities are generally going to have more crime than rural areas, and most larger cities are led by democrats because that's how the parties shake out.  correlation is not causation.

just another NRA talking point that falls apart when you apply facts. 

 
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