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Matt Holliday on his way to... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter RBM
- Start date
Hoos First
Footballguy
from what Ive read, the Cardinals will give up Brett Wallace, Clayton Mortensen and Shane Peterson.
MrPhoenix
Ron Paul Soldier
Tim Kurkjan reporting that on ESPN right now.A little leery about giving up Wallace as the guy can just flat out freaking hit, but he might not stick at 3B and might have to slide to 1B, and he ain't bumping Pujols.Still, Holliday is a great haul and should be a big boost
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Gah, I hate giving up Wallace. They had better to do everything possible to sign Holliday.
Word now is the deal is all but done; just waiting on the medical stuff for all of the players involved to go through.
Word now is the deal is all but done; just waiting on the medical stuff for all of the players involved to go through.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Holliday is overrated. He was a product of Coors field. Cards got robbed on this one.
Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
Coors Field? Now if he really wanted to prove his value he could put up those numbers at cavernous parks such as the ones found in New York, Philadelphia, Texas and Cincinatti. Humidor down?
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
I don't know. You tell me?Holliday's numbers:2008Home: .332-15hr-59rbiAway: .308-10hr-29rbi2007Home: .376-25hr-82rbiAway: .301-11hr-55rbi2006Home: .373-22hr-78rbiAway: .280-12hr-52rbi2005Home: .357-12hr-52rbiAway: .256-07hr-35rbi2004Home: .338-10hr-36rbiAway: .240-04hr-21rbiCareer at Coors (359gms): .357-84hr-307rbiCareer everywhere else (432gms): .281-42hr-197rbi
Hes not as good as when he was in Coors but hes not as bad as this year. hes a good hitter and is great protection for Pujols. Great move by STL and now they are a WS contendor.
EYLive
Footballguy
Me too. Although he was heating up in the second half.As a Holly owner news this makes me
shut it down
Footballguy
Well, obviously a really good deal for the A's. Holliday was probably a Type A, but I think I'd rather have Wallace and a couple of organizational guys than more picks.
The trade to acquire Holliday, which went directly against what they were doing with the Swisher trade (nice haul), Haren trade (very nice haul) and the Harden trade (ugh) was pretty unconscionable: Renting a guy for a year with no real hope of winning this year given how young the staff was, in exchange for a potential superstar and a very good closer. Wallace digs Oakland out of that whole somewhat and fills a major need.
Oakland currently has gobs of solid hitting prospects up and down the farm system. Hopefully they turn things around in a couple of years.
The trade to acquire Holliday, which went directly against what they were doing with the Swisher trade (nice haul), Haren trade (very nice haul) and the Harden trade (ugh) was pretty unconscionable: Renting a guy for a year with no real hope of winning this year given how young the staff was, in exchange for a potential superstar and a very good closer. Wallace digs Oakland out of that whole somewhat and fills a major need.
Oakland currently has gobs of solid hitting prospects up and down the farm system. Hopefully they turn things around in a couple of years.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
Well, it's better than a kick in the balls, I guess.
My issue with this deal is that you're giving up arguably your best prospect for a guy I'm not sure puts you over the top. And who may be a half-season rental with Boras for an agent.
I'd guess this turns into an effort to re-sign Holliday OR Ludwick after the season, and then you're pretty much right back where you were, less a huge upside prospect at a position where you already have a need.
Sounds like a winning proposition.
My issue with this deal is that you're giving up arguably your best prospect for a guy I'm not sure puts you over the top. And who may be a half-season rental with Boras for an agent.
I'd guess this turns into an effort to re-sign Holliday OR Ludwick after the season, and then you're pretty much right back where you were, less a huge upside prospect at a position where you already have a need.
Sounds like a winning proposition.
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
:breakdance: :spinsonhead:
Wrigley
Footballguy
:hairstartsonfire:
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
I think they might as well update the old AC sign now.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
So, he's hit for a better average away from Coors every year he's been in the bigs? If he tops .308 the rest of the way hitting in front of or behind Pujols, the rest will take care of itself. I'd take that.
Statorama
Footballguy
If the Cards offer him arbitration at the end of the year and he declines, they get the compensatory draft picks for a Type A free agent. If he accepts arbitration, he won't get much of a raise based on the year he's having. So you get Holliday at a relative bargain next season to bat behind Pujols. Wallace doesn't have the skillset to be even a league average defensive thirdbaseman, and is likely destined for firstbase. Not a whole lot of room for those on the Cardinals. Worst case scenario is that you traded Wallace away for two high draft picks. Worth the gamble in my opinion.I think both teams did very well, and the Cardinals in particular are in a no-lose situation.
pettifogger
Footballguy
It's all about relative cost, though. Could the Cards have picked up a hitter who gives them most of what Holliday does -- say, Josh Willingham at less than 1/4 the salary -- for much lesser cost in talent traded away, and kept Wallace too? As an A's fan I wanted to see them keep Holliday and at least put some offense on the field for the rest of this year. But, they couldn't refuse an offer like this. Wallace will be starting for them for 10 years (or until he's flipped for the next trio of prospects).
Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
The only problem with doing this deal, is now what do the Cardinals have in reserve to offer for say Erik Bedard? While a bat was definitely needed, our pitching staff is where the help is most needed. Wellemeyer has almost pitched his way out of St Louis. Lohse is still not quite right. Piniero is Jekyll/Hyde from start to start. carp and Wainwright are studs - but Carp always worries me with his ability to stay healthy. I am also curious to see the new line up. I am assuming
Rasmus
DeRosa
Pujols
Holliday
Ludwick
Molina
Ryan
pitcher
Thurston...or whoever is playing 3B that day
still need to find ABs for Ankiel and I am interested how often Lugo plays - hopefully not much as i think Brendan Ryan has earned the bulk of the playing time.
Rasmus
DeRosa
Pujols
Holliday
Ludwick
Molina
Ryan
pitcher
Thurston...or whoever is playing 3B that day
still need to find ABs for Ankiel and I am interested how often Lugo plays - hopefully not much as i think Brendan Ryan has earned the bulk of the playing time.
MrPhoenix
Ron Paul Soldier
Probably looking at something like:1. 2B Skip Schumacher2. 3B Mark DeRosa3. 1B Albert Pujols4. LF Matt Holliday5. RF Ryan Ludwick6. CF Colby Rasmus7. C Yadier Molina8. Pitcher9. SS Brendan Ryan/Julio Lugo
Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
I kew I was missing someone...it was Schumaker. DeRosa at 3B. Gracias.Not a bad lineup assuming DeRosa can play through the tendon issue.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
I thought I read something about Glaus potentially being back in short order, too. Not counting on it, but that would be gravy if he returns at all to form. Does DeRosa have the range to play SS? 
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I am a DeRosa, Pujols, and Holliday owner.Me too. Although he was heating up in the second half.As a Holly owner news this makes me
Big Cardinal fan. Like to add a few things here.
Cards get out from under 3 big contracts this year, namely Glaus 12ml , K Greene 6 ml, and Kennedy 5?ml. So they will have some room to re-sign Holliday. Although Boras is reviled throughout baseball the Cards have a pretty good relationship with him and have proven it in the past. Having said that, they are very careful whom they sign when he is the agent. But they wouldnt have done this deal without some idea that they could work out an agreement here.
Although Holliday started the year off horribly he has come on of late. Why? He worked out with McGwire during the offseason (oakland) and changed his swing to generate more power. A month ago he said screw it and went back to his old swing. Been hot ever since. This was known to the STL organization.
Mostly this is about Pujols and signing him to an extension in the next 2 yrs. Unless and until they put some players around him, he was making noise about leaving. This deal does that in a big way.
Cards get out from under 3 big contracts this year, namely Glaus 12ml , K Greene 6 ml, and Kennedy 5?ml. So they will have some room to re-sign Holliday. Although Boras is reviled throughout baseball the Cards have a pretty good relationship with him and have proven it in the past. Having said that, they are very careful whom they sign when he is the agent. But they wouldnt have done this deal without some idea that they could work out an agreement here.
Although Holliday started the year off horribly he has come on of late. Why? He worked out with McGwire during the offseason (oakland) and changed his swing to generate more power. A month ago he said screw it and went back to his old swing. Been hot ever since. This was known to the STL organization.
Mostly this is about Pujols and signing him to an extension in the next 2 yrs. Unless and until they put some players around him, he was making noise about leaving. This deal does that in a big way.
MrPhoenix
Ron Paul Soldier
Not sure Glaus will be more than a bat off the bench when he returns, really.I thought I read something about Glaus potentially being back in short order, too. Not counting on it, but that would be gravy if he returns at all to form. Does DeRosa have the range to play SS?
Balco
Footballguy
Cards get a great bat, and as someone mentioned, like two draft picks if Holliday declines arbitration or they resign Holliday. Win Win.
I think Billy Beane can really assemble young pitching talent. But not sure why he took Wallace, who from everything I have read is a solid hitter, but a marginal defender at 3B. It seems like Beane puts no value at all on defense, when he really should.
I think Billy Beane can really assemble young pitching talent. But not sure why he took Wallace, who from everything I have read is a solid hitter, but a marginal defender at 3B. It seems like Beane puts no value at all on defense, when he really should.
MrPhoenix
Ron Paul Soldier
Wallace's future is likely at 1st, and he doesn't have much standing in his way there. Daric Barton (ironically, also a former Cards farmhand) is not the answer.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Well, it's not that good, but I'm not one bit upset about having DeRo and LudwickI am a DeRosa, Pujols, and Holliday owner.Me too. Although he was heating up in the second half.As a Holly owner news this makes me
shut it down
Footballguy
Couldn't be further from the truth, actually, the A's have focused a lot more on defense in recent years.I think the idea is to eventually try to put Wallace at 1B, or work intensively to make him better at 3B. Who knows.Balco said:
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I'd say Holliday had a pretty good 1st game as a St. Louis Cardinal.
The Cardinals now have an extremely potent lineup, led of course by the best player on the planet, possibly the best 1-2-3 starting pitching punch in the NL, a top closer this year, and one of the best managers in the game to oversee it all.
Be afraid, NL. Be very afraid.
The Cardinals now have an extremely potent lineup, led of course by the best player on the planet, possibly the best 1-2-3 starting pitching punch in the NL, a top closer this year, and one of the best managers in the game to oversee it all.
Be afraid, NL. Be very afraid.
Sideshow Bob
Footballguy
It would be nice to see Lohse and Ankiel come around.
Wrigley
Footballguy
As long as the light stays red(LaRusa will be fine)I'd say Holliday had a pretty good 1st game as a St. Louis Cardinal.The Cardinals now have an extremely potent lineup, led of course by the best player on the planet, possibly the best 1-2-3 starting pitching punch in the NL, a top closer this year, and one of the best managers in the game to oversee it all. Be afraid, NL. Be very afraid.
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
I see this is your first post in this thread and I would like to say welcome friend!
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
No. I didn't include this season where he hit .286 away from Coors. He's a 20HR guy who might hit around .300. Is that really worth your top prospect?
Sideshow Bob
Footballguy
I'm new to this strange world of the internet. Will you be my guide?
Sideshow Bob
Footballguy
I wouldn't say trading Haren for Mulder was worth it... but for the World Series ring they may not have won had Haren still been on staff.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
You are ignoring the Pujols factor. Batting behind AP means he is going to have pitches to hit and guys on base in front of him a lot. And don't discount the minor ludwick factor. Lud is batting behind him. Even more incentive to pitch to him rather than give Lud two men on. I have seen the splits and they are pretty telling in that Coors was a place he raked. But he also raked at Busch. I think I heard he batted something like .380 against the cardinals. I think him playing well at Busch with Puj in front and Lud behind will compensate for the inflated Coors Field stats. In a short period of time that seems to be true....
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Update?
Txns8
Footballguy
RnR
Footballguy
:crickets:Wonder why?Txns8 said:
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Probably because in 26 games with the Cardinals, Holliday has a batting average of .414, and 23 RBIs. And shockingly, none of those games have been played at Coors Field! Hard to believe, ain't it?:crickets:Wonder why?Txns8 said:
Oh, and the Cardinals are 18-8 since the trade, and have stretched their 1 1/2 game lead to 7 games. 
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
Of course.:startsthewave:
