Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Matt Waldman: 75% chance Bridgwater falls due to racism (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter PatsWillWin
- Start date
B-Deep
Footballguy
ya know
I have stayed out of this for the most part. You are by no means required to defend your statement. But this post has REALLY bugged me. I was going to let it go, but now i have decided to say my piece. It is like you are saying people's views on racism cannot change. That is simply wrong. I assumed you're podcast comments were said, in part, to get people to think about your view on racism, to discuss it, and perhaps change their views.
If people's views on racism are locked in there is no need for a mature discourse on the subject, as no one will change. If that were the case statements like yours would serve no purpose. Stating that your mind is closed and you know everyone else's is so a discussion of this very important topic is meaningless just really bugs me. A lot.
Clearly there are some whose views will not ever change no matter what (and it seems you have admitted that this group includes you) but there are also a large group of people whose thoughts about race evolve continually, people who strive to understand things from different viewpoints. These people are the basis of much of the progress that has been made in race relations, and if progress is going to continue (and i believe there is still MUCH more progress to be made) these are the people who will drive it. It is a topic worth discussing.
I assume you'll never read this, but again it seems as if it would have no impact. Your mind is made up, you are right on this point there can be no discussion. That is the attitude that impedes progress, though, it does nothing to promote it.
Catbird
Footballguy
I don't know, but suspect, that instead of your conclusion that Matt isn't open to discussing the issues involved, he probably feels that with the anger and vitriol of the Sharkpool, and with this being the intensely personal and emotional issue of deeply held belief that it is for most of us, whatever our views, this isn't the best setting for a well-considered and productive discussion about it.
He says his views are unlikely to change, but I think we would mostly all say that on this issue, even if open to thinking about it. I would have said my views on homosexuality were unlikely to change, but they have.
I suspect that almost any PFW staffer who came in here and argued a strong position about racism in football from almost any perspective would end up with dozens of people angry at him and many calling for his termination from the staff, or at the least many people discrediting his football work because of a largely unrelated belief held. I, at least (since I can't really speak for Matt) think that people who seriously want to discuss and examine these issues can find a much more productive place and crowd to have that with.
He says his views are unlikely to change, but I think we would mostly all say that on this issue, even if open to thinking about it. I would have said my views on homosexuality were unlikely to change, but they have.
I suspect that almost any PFW staffer who came in here and argued a strong position about racism in football from almost any perspective would end up with dozens of people angry at him and many calling for his termination from the staff, or at the least many people discrediting his football work because of a largely unrelated belief held. I, at least (since I can't really speak for Matt) think that people who seriously want to discuss and examine these issues can find a much more productive place and crowd to have that with.
Casting Couch
Footballguy
Is the true reason "racism" or could it be that he scored a zero on the wonderlic test ?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I think Bridgewater did okay on the wonderlic. Speaking of the wonderlic, Waldman has just as big a complex over that test as he does over race.
cstu
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Sounds like everyone associated with the NFL will be racists in two weeks.
bigmarc27
Footballguy
maybe he's not a racist, but if he lets a scripted workout against air trump years of tape against live FBS defenses, he's certainly not using reason
Last edited by a moderator:
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
If his tape was half as good as you and Waldman claim, dozens of people that know football wouldn't be calling him a 2nd round talent.
Neofight
Footballguy
I agree that Mayock's position seems unreasoned. He did at least give a reason for his view, however unreasonable it may be. Waldman's stance comes off as unreasonable and without a given reason; 'tis the season for great unreason.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He's not a racist but his explanation makes no sense. He questions what he saw on tape against real competition because of a bad pro day?
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure Mayock had him as his top rated QB based on the tape, before the combine and pro day.
Ksquared
Footballguy
I think the thing that many of you are forgetting is these pro days for QBs have become "perfect" by so many QBs in the past. The count is how many balls touch the ground because only the throws they can make well are attempted normally. If a QB has a bad pro day it is a big deal anymore. Especially with so many QBs having great pro days the last 10 years that have turned out to not be very good NFL QBs. It definitely sticks out as unusual and don't forget that I believe this QB class does not have a sure fire franchise QB or so we have been told. They are being picked early with the hope that they may pan out. It is not like any of these QBs are sure fire.
Neofight
Footballguy
The woman
HellToupee
Footballguy
No matter what happens draft day the spin will make the acolytes happy.
I've heard of poor prospects having great pro days but I've never heard of a healthy great prospect having a poor day
I've heard of poor prospects having great pro days but I've never heard of a healthy great prospect having a poor day
Last edited by a moderator:
CoachJankySpanky
Footballguy
I'm a glass half-full type of guy so I look at it as Teddy has a 25% chance to be drafted high because he is black.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
Just re: the pro day, I don't know if it's been mentioned upthread, but TB had been working with a guru type guy who had him doing something brand new and completely unfamiliar with his footwork. (Something at the top of his drop -- I don't know, just repeating what I've heard -- think it was McShay)
Teams are working him out. They'll see what's going on.
One of the neatest things I heard all off-season was Waldman's deal about how TB's college scheme has the QB make his reads in order from shallow to deep, which by its nature would make his deep throws hurried.
Teams are working him out. They'll see what's going on.
One of the neatest things I heard all off-season was Waldman's deal about how TB's college scheme has the QB make his reads in order from shallow to deep, which by its nature would make his deep throws hurried.
mr roboto
Footballguy
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
TB supporters aren't coming across very good in this thread, but not nearly as bad as Waldman.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
So race baiting is promoted in the Shark Pool?
That's disheartening.
That's disheartening.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
What is race baiting?
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Stating that racism is the only possible reason for something and having no evidence to support the position.
MAC_32
Footballguy
out of curiosity what are Derek Carr's measurables and how do they stack up against Bridgewater?They seem similar to me, but the tape favors one much, much much more than the other.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Let's be even more direct and succinct. One of the four best passers in the league right now fell to the 24th pick in the first round. Another of the four best passers in the league right now fell to the 1st pick in the second round. A third of the four best passers in the league right now fell to a supplemental pick in the sixth round. They are all white.
3 years ago the top pick in the entire draft was a QB. Two years ago the second pick in the entire draft was a QB. They are both black, as are the first two QBs picked in last year's draft.
Yet we have people here who stand on the position that if Bridgewater falls in the draft that the only possible reason is because of his skin color, which would prove institutional racism in the NFL against black QBs. That position, as can be seen from the evidence above, is simply not credible. In fact it is laughable.
That FBGs promotes this position by allowing such a ludicrous notion to be remotely credible - you'll notice their policy of locking patently incredulous threads - despite the direct incontrovertible evidence to the contrary is saddening.
Last edited by a moderator:
MAC_32
Footballguy
Most black qb's also run, Bridgewater doesn't, not unless he has to anyway.
Maybe it's recency bias because of this Sterling bs but I don't think it's a crazy thought. May not be true, but unrealistic? Nah. Billionaires live in a bubble. Some weird #### goes on inside of that bubble.
Maybe it's recency bias because of this Sterling bs but I don't think it's a crazy thought. May not be true, but unrealistic? Nah. Billionaires live in a bubble. Some weird #### goes on inside of that bubble.
squistion
Footballguy
Not as disheartening as seeing this comment on page 13 of this thread. A staff member voices an opinion in a podcast and as a result the Shark Pool is promoting race baiting? Please.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
You're saying that there is not race baiting going on in this thread? That's also not credible. Race baiting is every bit backwards and detrimental as racism is. It's disgusting.
Enough already.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Waldman's race comment concerning Bridgewater was nothing but idiotic and full of nonsense. The fact he isn't man enough to either support his comment with facts or apologize for it pretty much puts him in the Donald Sterling category of people for me. And that combined with his below average history of evaluating QBs just confirms he is trying to sell a product Jerry Springer style instead of with real football knowledge.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Jamarcus Russell was a runner? He was a #1 overall pick. Donovan McNabb was a runner? He was a top 5 pick. Hell, I don't consider EJ Manuel a runner. He's like Bridgewater in that he can run okay when needed but that's not his top weapon.
MAC_32
Footballguy
unfamiliar with the word most?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
McNabb certainly was (look at his early career rushing stats). Russell wasn't at all - but if you read some of the comments about him in the Shark Pool at the time he was drafted, you wouldn't know it.
Manuel is kind of in between - more of a Big Ben type runner (mobile and a strong/powerful runner, but not super fast/quick).
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
http://deadspin.com/the-big-book-of-black-quarterbacks-1517763742
The Big Book of Black Quarterbacks
On Sunday, the Seattle Seahawks walked all over the Denver Broncos, 43-8, to win Super Bowl XLVIII. Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson passed for 206 yards, ran for 26 more, threw two touchdowns, and made National Football League history. He became the second African-American quarterback ever to start and win a Super Bowl, and the first to be mainly received not as an aspirational or representative figure, but as a man who plays on his own terms: as, more or less, a quarterback.
This project started with my dad on Thanksgiving. He was reminiscing about Doug Williams, who in 1988 became the first black quarterback to start and win a Super Bowl. All these years later, he was still proud of Williams, whose name to some may be that of a half-remembered player from the past but to millions of others remains a powerful symbol of progress. It stayed with me, and it seemed that it was worth telling the story not just of Williams, but of everyone—of all those generations of players who struggled so that Russell Wilson could be, simply, a good young quarterback.
So the Deadspin staff set out to find and name every single black quarterback ever to play in the NFL. First, we had to establish a methodology. For players to be considered, we decided that they had to be black—to define themselves or be defined by others as black, or have a black parent. Second, they had to make the NFL as a quarterback. To "make the NFL," we decided, at least one of the following two things had to happen: They had to be drafted by a franchise in the NFL draft, and/or they had to be rostered on an NFL team for at least one regular season or postseason game. There were many players who were drafted as quarterbacks, but never featured on an NFL depth chart. They made the list. Some players, like Warren Moon, were undrafted but eventually made an NFL roster. They made the list, too. Other players, like Antwaan Randle El, were quarterbacks in college, but were drafted by teams with the express intent of converting them to play different positions. They didn't make the list. (This got tricky, though. In general, we erred on the side of inclusion, because the story of black quarterbacks in the NFL is partly the story of black cornerbacks and black wide receivers who got converted before ever taking a snap in the pros. If this seems like a fuzzy and inconsistent standard to you, take it up with the NFL.) Many people—like you, probably—weren't drafted to play quarterback in the NFL, and didn't make an NFL roster as a free agent. They didn't make the list, either.
Several things were immediately clear. Though black NFL quarterbacks make up one of the smallest fraternities in all of sports, no one anywhere had ever compiled an exhaustive list. No one knows the names of every black quarterback ever to play in the NFL for sure, including us. But we think we're pretty close. There were several lists of black NFL quarterbacks online, which we cross-referenced to get a good base; we
trawled through every single NFL draft ever, one by one, and we read thousands of articles, from as far back as the early 1900s, looking for hints of forgotten black quarterbacks. In our search, we found a few players lost to the years but immortalized via a casual name-drop or an off-hand comparison.
There were difficulties. A huge one, for example, is that the modern quarterback position didn't exist before the 1950s. Single-wing tailbacks like Frederick Douglass "Fritz" Pollard, Joe Lillard, and even George Taliaferro were called upon to pass, rush, and kick. They made the list, on the criterion that they threw passes. If not quite quarterbacks, they were the closest thing to it. Second, records grew more incomplete and, in some cases, less reliable the further we delved into the past. There's no telling how many black quarterbacks have been lost to history. If you spot any mistakes or oversights—and we're sure you will—let us know, either in the comments below or at tips@deadspin.com.
It took a long time and some real work, but we were able to put together what we think is the most comprehensive list of black NFL quarterbacks ever compiled. More than a compilation of names, this was an opportunity to find and publish these men's stories. Some are brief; others are long. We penned longer pieces on the most notable players, like Fritz Pollard, Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Michael Vick, the immortal Akili Smith, and many more, but every player on this list is part of a broad narrative that traces the history of football and its relationship with the broader society.
As part of this, we tested old stereotypes and answered old questions. Do black quarterbacks run more or less than whites? Are they more accomplished passers? You'll find answers here. We compared these black quarterbacks with each other and their non-black peers, and tracked the development of these players as individuals and as a collective over time. We added photos, videos, and some really great charts.
We did all this not just to learn about black quarterbacks, but to learn about how the position, the NFL, and race relations in this country have developed through time. Ultimately, given the dominance of African-American players elsewhere on the field, telling the story of what they've done under center is about testing the promise of football, the promise suggested by the strange, annual pre-Super Bowl recitation of the Declaration of Independence: that football represents what America is, and what it aspires to be.
This is The Big Book of Black Quarterbacks. Entries were written by me (I'm the "I" wherever you see it), Tommy Craggs, Billy Haisley, Samer Kalaf, and Kyle Wagner; charts are by Reuben Fischer-Baum. Let's get to it.
The Big Book of Black Quarterbacks
On Sunday, the Seattle Seahawks walked all over the Denver Broncos, 43-8, to win Super Bowl XLVIII. Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson passed for 206 yards, ran for 26 more, threw two touchdowns, and made National Football League history. He became the second African-American quarterback ever to start and win a Super Bowl, and the first to be mainly received not as an aspirational or representative figure, but as a man who plays on his own terms: as, more or less, a quarterback.
This project started with my dad on Thanksgiving. He was reminiscing about Doug Williams, who in 1988 became the first black quarterback to start and win a Super Bowl. All these years later, he was still proud of Williams, whose name to some may be that of a half-remembered player from the past but to millions of others remains a powerful symbol of progress. It stayed with me, and it seemed that it was worth telling the story not just of Williams, but of everyone—of all those generations of players who struggled so that Russell Wilson could be, simply, a good young quarterback.
So the Deadspin staff set out to find and name every single black quarterback ever to play in the NFL. First, we had to establish a methodology. For players to be considered, we decided that they had to be black—to define themselves or be defined by others as black, or have a black parent. Second, they had to make the NFL as a quarterback. To "make the NFL," we decided, at least one of the following two things had to happen: They had to be drafted by a franchise in the NFL draft, and/or they had to be rostered on an NFL team for at least one regular season or postseason game. There were many players who were drafted as quarterbacks, but never featured on an NFL depth chart. They made the list. Some players, like Warren Moon, were undrafted but eventually made an NFL roster. They made the list, too. Other players, like Antwaan Randle El, were quarterbacks in college, but were drafted by teams with the express intent of converting them to play different positions. They didn't make the list. (This got tricky, though. In general, we erred on the side of inclusion, because the story of black quarterbacks in the NFL is partly the story of black cornerbacks and black wide receivers who got converted before ever taking a snap in the pros. If this seems like a fuzzy and inconsistent standard to you, take it up with the NFL.) Many people—like you, probably—weren't drafted to play quarterback in the NFL, and didn't make an NFL roster as a free agent. They didn't make the list, either.
Several things were immediately clear. Though black NFL quarterbacks make up one of the smallest fraternities in all of sports, no one anywhere had ever compiled an exhaustive list. No one knows the names of every black quarterback ever to play in the NFL for sure, including us. But we think we're pretty close. There were several lists of black NFL quarterbacks online, which we cross-referenced to get a good base; we
trawled through every single NFL draft ever, one by one, and we read thousands of articles, from as far back as the early 1900s, looking for hints of forgotten black quarterbacks. In our search, we found a few players lost to the years but immortalized via a casual name-drop or an off-hand comparison.
There were difficulties. A huge one, for example, is that the modern quarterback position didn't exist before the 1950s. Single-wing tailbacks like Frederick Douglass "Fritz" Pollard, Joe Lillard, and even George Taliaferro were called upon to pass, rush, and kick. They made the list, on the criterion that they threw passes. If not quite quarterbacks, they were the closest thing to it. Second, records grew more incomplete and, in some cases, less reliable the further we delved into the past. There's no telling how many black quarterbacks have been lost to history. If you spot any mistakes or oversights—and we're sure you will—let us know, either in the comments below or at tips@deadspin.com.
It took a long time and some real work, but we were able to put together what we think is the most comprehensive list of black NFL quarterbacks ever compiled. More than a compilation of names, this was an opportunity to find and publish these men's stories. Some are brief; others are long. We penned longer pieces on the most notable players, like Fritz Pollard, Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Michael Vick, the immortal Akili Smith, and many more, but every player on this list is part of a broad narrative that traces the history of football and its relationship with the broader society.
As part of this, we tested old stereotypes and answered old questions. Do black quarterbacks run more or less than whites? Are they more accomplished passers? You'll find answers here. We compared these black quarterbacks with each other and their non-black peers, and tracked the development of these players as individuals and as a collective over time. We added photos, videos, and some really great charts.
We did all this not just to learn about black quarterbacks, but to learn about how the position, the NFL, and race relations in this country have developed through time. Ultimately, given the dominance of African-American players elsewhere on the field, telling the story of what they've done under center is about testing the promise of football, the promise suggested by the strange, annual pre-Super Bowl recitation of the Declaration of Independence: that football represents what America is, and what it aspires to be.
This is The Big Book of Black Quarterbacks. Entries were written by me (I'm the "I" wherever you see it), Tommy Craggs, Billy Haisley, Samer Kalaf, and Kyle Wagner; charts are by Reuben Fischer-Baum. Let's get to it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Old Smiley
Footballguy
True confession time. Just a few minutes ago, I went and actually looked at some Bridgewater film. I don't like his throwing motion at all. He doesn't step through his throws. Not a bit. No wonder he can't throw deep. No wonder his balls don't look pretty. No wonder that QB guru I mentioned was trying to fix his feet. I can't believe his motion doesn't come up more when people talk about him.
I went a looked up a Greg Cosell piece I'd read, and I did find this sentence: "Bridgewater's throwing limitations were not a function of arm strength; they were more a result of his natural throwing motion."
It's not a little bit bad, it's a lot bad. Now, if he had that weird motion and the balls DID look sweet in the air, or come out like a rocket, you'd go, "Hmph. Well, Philip Rivers.." but they don't.
Watching tape. What a concept.
I went a looked up a Greg Cosell piece I'd read, and I did find this sentence: "Bridgewater's throwing limitations were not a function of arm strength; they were more a result of his natural throwing motion."
It's not a little bit bad, it's a lot bad. Now, if he had that weird motion and the balls DID look sweet in the air, or come out like a rocket, you'd go, "Hmph. Well, Philip Rivers.." but they don't.
Watching tape. What a concept.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
When you say watching tape/film, what do you mean?
Old Smiley
Footballguy
I followed this link Doug Farrar had retweeted:
Ryan Lownes @ryanlownes 14h
This was one of the gutsiest plays of the entire 2013-14 college football season: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2sQkfDVWPc&feature=youtu.be&t=9m6s … (9:06) #Bridgewater
It's the first time I'd actually watched him play. To me, it jumps right out. Didn't mean to give the impression I'd watched his whole season in all22...
Ryan Lownes @ryanlownes 14h
This was one of the gutsiest plays of the entire 2013-14 college football season: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2sQkfDVWPc&feature=youtu.be&t=9m6s … (9:06) #Bridgewater
It's the first time I'd actually watched him play. To me, it jumps right out. Didn't mean to give the impression I'd watched his whole season in all22...
Last edited by a moderator:
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Cool. I've found that sometimes all-22 isn't important, but for QBs it's pretty tough to figure out what they see without the entire field in your vision. I suppose however, your stuff about his throwing mechanics shouldn't have much to do with the entire field.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Matt Waldman @MattWaldman 6m
I'd thank you for adding to the case files Donald Sterling, but I really wish you hadn't. Rather have folks tell me I'm in left field.
I'd thank you for adding to the case files Donald Sterling, but I really wish you hadn't. Rather have folks tell me I'm in left field.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Matt Waldman just wrote an article saying "There is a 63% chance John 14:6 is racist".
That was fast!
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Well, I'm on record as saying: 1. I don't think Bridgewater will fall; and 2. if he does it won't be due to racism, but it's not an apples to apples comparision to say that if a (racist) NBA owner employs black players then it shows that a (racist) NFL owner would therefore not pass up a black QB (at the top of the draft).
Similar threads
