Meachem TD scored as offense or defense play? (1 Viewer)

[Lobary]

For the same reason that the D/ST "points allowed" stats includes any points scored by a turnover by the offense. If I've got the New Orleans D/ST and Brees throws an INT that is returned for a TD, why do those points scored count against my D/ST in the "points allowed" stat?

Probably because you play in a crappy league that's too lazy to remove those TDs from the points allowed. None of my leagues count those TDs against the defense.

^^^^THISEven Yahoo's default scoring doesn't count points scored off turnovers by an offense against that team's defense:

"In Yahoo! Sports Fantasy Football, scoring for the Points Allowed category in leagues using Team Defenses include the following situations:

1. All TDs scored against the defense.

2. All FGs scored by the opponent.

3. All PATs (Extra Points and 2-PT conversions).

4. Special Teams Scoring (kickoff and punt returns for touchdowns, as well as blocked punts returned for TDs).

5. All other scoring categories chosen within the league.

Please Note: Points scored against the team's offensive unit (e.g., interception and fumble returns for TDs, FG blocks returned for Touchdowns, and safeties) are not counted in the Points Allowed category."

Well, guess what? Yahoo has screwed the pooch on this one because Meachem isn't getting the points for an offensive fumble recovery TD. Despite awarding the points to the Saints D, Yahoo has also penalized Washington's team defense for that touchdown! How can this be? This implies two defenses on the field at the same time. I agree that Washington's defense *should be* penalized because their defensive unit was on the field at the time, but in the interests of logical consistency one cannot both reward one defense while penalizing the other on the same play.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

One thing I'm struggling with today is my league has never given individual players TDs on defense. Clearly Meachem deserves a TD on the play. So how can Saints D get one too? Who does the TD belong to?

Most likely no one, unless your league is setup to allow WR/RB/TE/QB to recieve points for Offensive Fumble Recoveries.

 

[Lobary]

One thing I'm struggling with today is my league has never given individual players TDs on defense. Clearly Meachem deserves a TD on the play. So how can Saints D get one too? Who does the TD belong to?

Most likely no one, unless your league is setup to allow WR/RB/TE/QB to recieve points for Offensive Fumble Recoveries.

My yahoo league setup allows for OFR TDs, but the Saints are getting credit for the TD and the Skins D is being penalized. WTF.

 

[FDC]

However, what should be the correct way to score this situation in future?

IMO there should be no points at all for Meachem or Team Def.

Reasoning: Because the ball was intercepted and there was a change of possession Meachem becomes a defender. Thus, he should not get points for an "Offensive Fumble Recovery for TD." Because he is not a true "defender" you do not get points for "Defensive Fumble Recovery for TD." Because your defense was not on the field NO defense does not get points for "Defensive Fumble Recovery for TD."

I think you're hung up on the phrase "Offensive Fumble Recovery", when it's really just a made up phrase by Myfantasyleague (and other websites). If MFL had described it as a "Team A Fumble Recovery", we might not be having this debate.That said, I think the way to score it in the future is to simply treat it as a separate scoring method -- not a rush, not a pass, but a Fumble Recovery TD. Each league should have the option of including these TDs when scored by offensive players. (Further, each league should have the option of deciding whether a standard offensive fumble recovery TD -- when a player recovers his teammate's fumble -- should be included.)

Justification: Its not like you started Meachem because of your knowledge of his ability to strip the football. Unpredictable stats/scoring should be left completely out of fantasy football.

Would you say the same if Meachem had recovered his own teammate's fumble and scored? Would you say the same if Meachem had scored on a lateral? IMO, these types of unpredictable plays are EXACTLY what makes fantasy football so much fun.

I feel that in a situation in which there was not a change in possession then yes Meachem should get credit for a score if the league scores "offensive fum rec for tds" and "defensive fum rec for tds." I feel that it is important for these to be differentiated and not just have a simple "Fumble recovery for a td." It is not as if offensive players score IDP points if there is a change of possession and they make a tackle. This could seem picky to some but I do not wish to see seasons destroyed on a fluky play like the Meachem TD. FWIW

I am 100% impartial to this situation. In fact I commish a league in which a playoff birth could be decided on this issue. Oddly enough Meachem's TD could hinge on whether a team goes from a 1st round bye to elimintated. If they get a 1st round bye I would also gain a 1st round bye. So I would actually benefit from Meachem's TD being scored.

It is an ESPN league and ESPN did actually adjust the scoring to give Meachem the TD. I made the decision to stick with the decision by ESPN and allow the adjustment. Because the box marked "fumble recovery for TD" is general and does not include "offense" or "defense" in their terminilogy I was forced to stick with ESPN's decision.

 

[Sarnoff]

Unpredictable stats/scoring should be left completely out of fantasy football.

 

[FDC]

Unpredictable stats/scoring should be left completely out of fantasy football.

?I beleive that receivers should be scored for receiving not defensive plays. I am surprised I am in the minority here.I also do not beleive in such things as:WRs scoring kick or punt return points.IDPs scoring offensive points if they play offense for some reason.

 

[bollocks28]

I'm just glad this didn't happen during fantasy playoffs. In ESPN leagues (at least ours) if Meacham never got the ball back and the Skins returned the INT for a TD, the Saints D/ST is penalized for points against even though they are never on the field so I can see where an argument could be made either way here.

 

[Routilla]

I'm just glad this didn't happen during fantasy playoffs. In ESPN leagues (at least ours) if Meacham never got the ball back and the Skins returned the INT for a TD, the Saints D/ST is penalized for points against even though they are never on the field so I can see where an argument could be made either way here.

This is why your league needs to address this in the off-season for next year. The player gets point

 

[Routilla]

I'm just glad this didn't happen during fantasy playoffs. In ESPN leagues (at least ours) if Meacham never got the ball back and the Skins returned the INT for a TD, the Saints D/ST is penalized for points against even though they are never on the field so I can see where an argument could be made either way here.

This is why your league needs to address this in the off-season for next year. The player gets point

 

[Routilla]

I'm just glad this didn't happen during fantasy playoffs. In ESPN leagues (at least ours) if Meacham never got the ball back and the Skins returned the INT for a TD, the Saints D/ST is penalized for points against even though they are never on the field so I can see where an argument could be made either way here.

This is why your league needs to address this in the off-season for next year. The player gets point

 

[Routilla]

I'm just glad this didn't happen during fantasy playoffs. In ESPN leagues (at least ours) if Meacham never got the ball back and the Skins returned the INT for a TD, the Saints D/ST is penalized for points against even though they are never on the field so I can see where an argument could be made either way here.

This is why your league needs to address this in the off-season for next year. Meachem gets points for the TD, no yards are involved for rushing etc. No points for the N.O. DEF/ST as they were on the sidelines. Points do count against the WAS DEF/ST since they were on the field.

 

[zed2283]

Thank goodness all four of my leagues scored this the correct way: Saints defensive TD.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

Thank goodness all four of my leagues scored this the correct way: Saints defensive TD.

That's just plain wrong, giving the defense a TD while they're watching from the sidelines. :shameful:

 

[Lobary]

Thank goodness all four of my leagues scored this the correct way: Saints defensive TD.

That's just plain wrong, giving the defense a TD while they're watching from the sidelines. :shameful:

I agree, and that's coming from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight and initially thought it should be ruled a DEF TD. After reading the arguments on both sides, I think the MFL analysis is spot-on and more logical than the argument that makes the NFL possession (for purposes of "Offense" and "Defense") determinative.Fantasy football leagues everywhere ignore this definition silliness whenever there's a pick-six or a simple fumble returned by the defense for a TD, because it's common sense.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

Thank goodness all four of my leagues scored this the correct way: Saints defensive TD.

That's just plain wrong, giving the defense a TD while they're watching from the sidelines. :shameful:

I agree, and that's coming from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight and initially thought it should be ruled a DEF TD. After reading the arguments on both sides, I think the MFL analysis is spot-on and more logical than the argument that makes the NFL possession (for purposes of "Offense" and "Defense") determinative.Fantasy football leagues everywhere ignore this definition silliness whenever there's a pick-six or a simple fumble returned by the defense for a TD, because it's common sense.

I don't have a dog in this fight either, except from a commish perspective. Thank God everyone in the 3 leagues I commish think MFL got it right, because it's been quiet. It doesn't really matter because our rules go with the scoring of the hosting site.

 

[CaptainHook]

if the saints d gets points against for allowing an interception return for a td, i dont see how they shouldnt get the fumble recovery and touchdown.

and theres no 'right' or 'wrong' here fantasy football has never been about anything relevant to real football, its just the statistics.

 

[Sarnoff]

Thank goodness all four of my leagues scored this the correct way: Saints defensive TD.

That's just plain wrong, giving the defense a TD while they're watching from the sidelines. :shameful:

Like Maurile said in the other thread, all that matters is what your league's individual rules say. There's no "right" and "wrong". All that matters are clear rules and consistency.Someone else brought up in the other thread that he's changing his league rules to disallow scoring if the D is on the sideline... but that's probably going to end up being a lot of work to be consistent. While this type of play hasn't happened in 5+ years, far more common situations occur, such as/ST is on the field, but it's a fake field goal or fake punt (by design) or botched snap. Holder (backup QB on the roster, sometimes) throws for a TD... or maybe an INT. Are those passing yards for the D/ST? An INT or TD by the defense? Or is that an offensive play with defensive personnel?Offense is on the field, QB throws an INT that's run back for a touchdown by the opposing defense. In most fantasy leagues, the QB's D/ST, which is on the sideline, will be hit for negative points for allowing points against. Why?Consistency within your own league rules is the issue here.

 

[Dbbr]

Thank goodness all four of my leagues scored this the correct way: Saints defensive TD.

That's just plain wrong, giving the defense a TD while they're watching from the sidelines. :shameful:

Like Maurile said in the other thread, all that matters is what your league's individual rules say. There's no "right" and "wrong". All that matters are clear rules and consistency.Someone else brought up in the other thread that he's changing his league rules to disallow scoring if the D is on the sideline... but that's probably going to end up being a lot of work to be consistent. While this type of play hasn't happened in 5+ years, far more common situations occur, such as/ST is on the field, but it's a fake field goal or fake punt (by design) or botched snap. Holder (backup QB on the roster, sometimes) throws for a TD... or maybe an INT. Are those passing yards for the D/ST? An INT or TD by the defense? Or is that an offensive play with defensive personnel?Offense is on the field, QB throws an INT that's run back for a touchdown by the opposing defense. In most fantasy leagues, the QB's D/ST, which is on the sideline, will be hit for negative points for allowing points against. Why?Consistency within your own league rules is the issue here.

I think the common sense approach is: you track player performance and award points based on their NFL roster position. When you draft a defensive team, you are drafting D Linemen, Line backers, and D backs. Period. When you draft DT/ST, you get all of those defensive positions and you get kick/punt returners.In regards to fake FG/punts - those are regular offensive plays. The ball is snapped, and there is no kick to change possession. It is scored as you score any other offensive play.The gamebook on this Meachem play is quite clear: New Orleans scored 3 offensive TD's, 0 Defensive TD's, and 0 Special Teams TD's. Even if you want to do the completely insane thing of awarding a touchdown to a unit who was on the sidelines drinking gatorade watching their offense - how can you do that when the NFL statistic shows 0 defensive and 0 special teams scores????? Are we no longer measuring/scoring NFL statistics, but rather we are now scoring based on some crazy interpretation made by one (CBS) entity (which by the way I sense is being back pedaled on right now) or another (Elias). Go with NFL roster position, and go with NFL statistics, and measure/score those categories you have established for points as per your rules.And let common sense prevail!!!!!

 

[Sarnoff]

Thank goodness all four of my leagues scored this the correct way: Saints defensive TD.

That's just plain wrong, giving the defense a TD while they're watching from the sidelines. :shameful:

Like Maurile said in the other thread, all that matters is what your league's individual rules say. There's no "right" and "wrong". All that matters are clear rules and consistency.Someone else brought up in the other thread that he's changing his league rules to disallow scoring if the D is on the sideline... but that's probably going to end up being a lot of work to be consistent. While this type of play hasn't happened in 5+ years, far more common situations occur, such as/ST is on the field, but it's a fake field goal or fake punt (by design) or botched snap. Holder (backup QB on the roster, sometimes) throws for a TD... or maybe an INT. Are those passing yards for the D/ST? An INT or TD by the defense? Or is that an offensive play with defensive personnel?Offense is on the field, QB throws an INT that's run back for a touchdown by the opposing defense. In most fantasy leagues, the QB's D/ST, which is on the sideline, will be hit for negative points for allowing points against. Why?Consistency within your own league rules is the issue here.

I think the common sense approach is: you track player performance and award points based on their NFL roster position. When you draft a defensive team, you are drafting D Linemen, Line backers, and D backs. Period. When you draft DT/ST, you get all of those defensive positions and you get kick/punt returners.In regards to fake FG/punts - those are regular offensive plays. The ball is snapped, and there is no kick to change possession. It is scored as you score any other offensive play.The gamebook on this Meachem play is quite clear: New Orleans scored 3 offensive TD's, 0 Defensive TD's, and 0 Special Teams TD's. Even if you want to do the completely insane thing of awarding a touchdown to a unit who was on the sidelines drinking gatorade watching their offense - how can you do that when the NFL statistic shows 0 defensive and 0 special teams scores????? Are we no longer measuring/scoring NFL statistics, but rather we are now scoring based on some crazy interpretation made by one (CBS) entity (which by the way I sense is being back pedaled on right now) or another (Elias). Go with NFL roster position, and go with NFL statistics, and measure/score those categories you have established for points as per your rules.And let common sense prevail!!!!!

Please stop looking at one position as "right" "wrong" or "common sense" and realize it has to be judged in context with the complete league and scoring rules.

 

[swampdog]

Defensive TD.

This isn't a question about who's offense and who's defense was on the field. Many offensive players play D and many defensive players play offense as well (for example Desean Jackson is my WR2, he does not get points for me when he returns kicks). When the ball was intercepted the NO offense became the D on the field, pretty simple. When the player (Meachem) recovered the ball on the strip he is a D player who returned it for a TD. Points go to Saints D.

The offensive player can only get points on an offensive play, causing a change of possession on the strip and a subsequent TD is clearly not an offensive play, however a fumble recovery without a change of possession is an offensive TD for the player who recovered it. They are just rules, and we spell them out before it happens.

That's how we scored it.

Swamp

 

[TommyGilmore]

Defensive TD.This isn't a question about who's offense and who's defense was on the field. Many offensive players play D and many defensive players play offense as well (for example Desean Jackson is my WR2, he does not get points for me when he returns kicks). When the ball was intercepted the NO offense became the D on the field, pretty simple. When the player (Meachem) recovered the ball on the strip he is a D player who returned it for a TD. Points go to Saints D.The offensive player can only get points on an offensive play, causing a change of possession on the strip and a subsequent TD is clearly not an offensive play, however a fumble recovery without a change of possession is an offensive TD for the player who recovered it. They are just rules, and we spell them out before it happens. That's how we scored it.Swamp

If Washington had scored a TD against the New Orleans offense, would you have counted those points against the New Orleans defense?

 

[swampdog]

Defensive TD.This isn't a question about who's offense and who's defense was on the field. Many offensive players play D and many defensive players play offense as well (for example Desean Jackson is my WR2, he does not get points for me when he returns kicks). When the ball was intercepted the NO offense became the D on the field, pretty simple. When the player (Meachem) recovered the ball on the strip he is a D player who returned it for a TD. Points go to Saints D.The offensive player can only get points on an offensive play, causing a change of possession on the strip and a subsequent TD is clearly not an offensive play, however a fumble recovery without a change of possession is an offensive TD for the player who recovered it. They are just rules, and we spell them out before it happens. That's how we scored it.Swamp

If Washington had scored a TD against the New Orleans offense, would you have counted those points against the New Orleans defense?

Yes, we count the points against the team not the D. Our scoring awards us points when we limit the other team to 6 or less. A TD (and subsequent good extra point) by any Wash team (offense or defense) would cause Saints D to be over the allotment amount and hence no points. Swamp