Megachurches and FFA Attendance (1 Viewer)

[Jayrok]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Impossible. If there's one thing I've learned from the FFA, its that all Christian churches support young earth creationism and spend most of their time sermonizing against homosexuality (taking an occasional break to demonize single mothers, but that goes without saying).

Don't forget that sciency stuff is evil and a tool for the devil to trick believers into falling for his lies.

 

[Pastor]

Pastor, what keeps you up more at night: The disintegration of the moral fabric of America, or that Timschochet is going to eventually find this thread and derail it?

I have been hoping Timschochet does not find this, is there a stealth thread mode? Actually what keeps me up at night is how to reach people in our community. How do we show Jesus love to the people we are around?

We had a college basketball thread entitled "Official Knitting Thread" for awhile so Ripleys/Archer couldn't find it. It worked for awhile.

I'm an atheist so probably not the best person to answer this, but my take is this: people know where churches are. The most recognizable landmark in my town is this, I mean it's pretty hard to miss, and I'm sure they're pretty welcoming to newcomers. I think the best thing churches can do to improve their image and show love, Jesus or otherwise, is to do good works in the community. Feed homeless, toy drives, etc. etc.

On a micro-level, I've been approached several times in my life by people who have wanted to engage me re: their religion. I've lied to avoid uncomfortable conversations (Mormons), gotten into a heated argument with some dude on a bus who was fairly pushy/narrow-minded, and most recently some dude came up to me in line at Trader Joe's and told me about the Bahai' (?) faith, but he almost seemed secretive.

If somebody's going to do something like this I don't think it's necessarily bad, but I think it's good to just start up conversations with people and then work it in, instead of hitting people up with "Hey, there's this Jesus guy..."

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

 

[joffer]

Pastor, what keeps you up more at night: The disintegration of the moral fabric of America, or that Timschochet is going to eventually find this thread and derail it?

I have been hoping Timschochet does not find this, is there a stealth thread mode? Actually what keeps me up at night is how to reach people in our community. How do we show Jesus love to the people we are around?

We had a college basketball thread entitled "Official Knitting Thread" for awhile so Ripleys/Archer couldn't find it. It worked for awhile.

I'm an atheist so probably not the best person to answer this, but my take is this: people know where churches are. The most recognizable landmark in my town is this, I mean it's pretty hard to miss, and I'm sure they're pretty welcoming to newcomers. I think the best thing churches can do to improve their image and show love, Jesus or otherwise, is to do good works in the community. Feed homeless, toy drives, etc. etc.

On a micro-level, I've been approached several times in my life by people who have wanted to engage me re: their religion. I've lied to avoid uncomfortable conversations (Mormons), gotten into a heated argument with some dude on a bus who was fairly pushy/narrow-minded, and most recently some dude came up to me in line at Trader Joe's and told me about the Bahai' (?) faith, but he almost seemed secretive.

If somebody's going to do something like this I don't think it's necessarily bad, but I think it's good to just start up conversations with people and then work it in, instead of hitting people up with "Hey, there's this Jesus guy..."

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

A woman I dated recently asked me to go to her church. I looked up the church on line and found the first line of their " core beliefs" was: We believe that the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments that comprise the Bible are the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God.I didn't read any further. When I see that, I'm out, doesn't matter how much community charity they do.

 

[Clifford]

If its for everyone I can't think of anything that would make me go back to a church other than educating my kid a little about Christianity since I love Christ's teachings. I think Jesus Christ is absolutely the person we should all model ourselves after and I am actually a fervent believer in Jesus and God. But the way humans have built religion around his teachings is nothing short of horrific historically, and it's not doing much for me today either. I would much prefer to seek out secular avenues for giving back to avoid having to talk to self-identifying Christians.

 

[dutch]

There is nothing that will make me go to church other than weddings and funerals of others. I can not stand the thought of listening to what I believe to be crazy manipulations and boring lectures of morality coming from fallible, sinful humans. Church and religion are a waste of time and ultimately a silly endeavor.

 

[culdeus]

There is nothing that will make me go to church other than weddings and funerals of others. I can not stand the thought of listening to what I believe to be crazy manipulations and boring lectures of morality coming from fallible, sinful humans. Church and religion are a waste of time and ultimately a silly endeavor.

preach on brother!

 

[Steve Tasker]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

This is actually a very difficult question to answer. There is a fundamental disconnect that I have with the Christian church where I simply don't believe the general fundamental tenets of the religion. I like to think I gave it a good long-term consideration before finally making my personal break with the Catholic Church. Barring some sort of revelation moment where I'm "inspired" to have faith, "find God", or whatever, I don't think there is really anything that will get me into a church (other than for a funeral or wedding).

Honestly, the only religion that has ever truly made sense to me, on a deeper level, is basic Buddhism. I'd attend Buddhist gatherings, but there really aren't many around here that I've been able to find.

 

[UniAlias]

There is a megachurch about a block or two from where I live. Definitely a huge focus on the younger crowd, seems very modern. I'm friends with a couple girls on Facebook who are always checking in at the church, usually with other good looking girls.

If tons of hot naive chicks aren't enough to get me to go I'm guessing nothing will. Maybe if they started offering an open bar I'd consider finding Jebus.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Pastor, what keeps you up more at night: The disintegration of the moral fabric of America, or that Timschochet is going to eventually find this thread and derail it?

I have been hoping Timschochet does not find this, is there a stealth thread mode? Actually what keeps me up at night is how to reach people in our community. How do we show Jesus love to the people we are around?

We had a college basketball thread entitled "Official Knitting Thread" for awhile so Ripleys/Archer couldn't find it. It worked for awhile.

I'm an atheist so probably not the best person to answer this, but my take is this: people know where churches are. The most recognizable landmark in my town is this, I mean it's pretty hard to miss, and I'm sure they're pretty welcoming to newcomers. I think the best thing churches can do to improve their image and show love, Jesus or otherwise, is to do good works in the community. Feed homeless, toy drives, etc. etc.

On a micro-level, I've been approached several times in my life by people who have wanted to engage me re: their religion. I've lied to avoid uncomfortable conversations (Mormons), gotten into a heated argument with some dude on a bus who was fairly pushy/narrow-minded, and most recently some dude came up to me in line at Trader Joe's and told me about the Bahai' (?) faith, but he almost seemed secretive.

If somebody's going to do something like this I don't think it's necessarily bad, but I think it's good to just start up conversations with people and then work it in, instead of hitting people up with "Hey, there's this Jesus guy..."

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

For me it's not an option whatsoever, it's simply something I don't believe in. My parents were casually Christian when I was a kid (a little bit moreso now), and would try out different churches, but I don't think I ever identified myself as a Christian. I remember kind of faking my way through that part of Boy Scouts, and then I went away with a GB to his church camp for a weekend and I REALLY had to fake my way through that. That's right around when I started self-identifying as a heathen.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

If the church removed the chanting, singing, throwing water on kids and any references to jesus, god, the bible or anything to do with religion, I'd be in.

 

[Jayrok]

There is a fundamental disconnect that I have with the Christian church where I simply don't believe the general fundamental tenets of the religion'

Any tenet in particular that causes the disconnect?

 

[IC FBGCav]

So are you Roger Storms or John Anderson?

http://chandlercc.org/staff/

I am really enjoying the conversation in this thread but I have to rank the staff at the church on how they would do as FBG employee(going on only looks) in draft form.

Dodds and JB have a coin flip to determine who gets first pick or next two. Dodds call heads and it lands on tails. JB elects to take the first pick.

JB walks up to the podium.

With the first pick in the 2014 CCC staff draft JB selects......

1.1 - Matt Johnson

JB on MJ - Matt is a perfect fit for our crew with the bald head and goatee. Chris Smith is definitely on the trading block with the drafting of MJ.

DD walks up to the podium.

With the 1.2 and 2.1 picks DD selects.......

1.2 - Matt Agnew

2.1 - Jason Fox

DD on Agnew and Fox - We are confident in Fox and Agnew, but with no bald guys on the board we just have to wish for the best and hope nature takes it course. We believe in a year or two Agnew can develop some significant scalp. It may take longer for Fox's true potential to show. Drinen and Wood better be on their toes or they can lose playing time to Agnew and Fox.

With the 2.2 pick JB selects......

2.2 Roger Storms

JB on Storms. This was really a no brainer. Storms was one of two players left with a goatee. I was shocked when Dodds left him out there. Plus I have a doctor on my payroll but much prefer senior pastor. Unfortunately this acquisition means the end for Dr. Bramel. Jene has been a good for the organization but we can't afford to keep him and will be placed on waivers immediately.

With pick 3.1 DD selects....

3.1 - Jeff Hinson

DD on Hinson. We had Jeff pegged here from the start of the draft. He hands down had the best goatee in the draft and that was something we really coveted. There is only so much a baby faced Rudnicki can do for you. We needed to add more toughness and we accomplished that with this pick.

With pick 3.2 JB selects......

3.2 Danny Hughes.

JB on Hughes. We can't say enough good things about Danny's glasses and salt and pepper hair. We have been looking to up grade at the Sigmond Bloom position and we accomplished this late in the 3rd round. Could not be happier with this pick.

With DD's final pick he selects.......

4.1 Matt Myers

DD on Myers. How is this guy is still left on the board at this point? I have no idea. JB has drank too much kool aid to let him drop this far to me. He is a better version of Clayton Gray in every way. Not living in Arkansas is a huge plus for us. There is like 50 states and you picking Arkansas to live in tells you all you need to know about Gray.

With the final pick in the 2014 CCC Staff draft. JB selects (while drinking kool aid.)

4.2 Don Anderson

JB on Anderson. I really like cherry kool aid and grape too. But my favorite flavor is (interviewer interrupts: JB we are supposed to be talking about Anderson) Donnie, you want to know about Donnie, that's right. I believe Donnie can make the best kool aid on staff by training camp. I am sick of Tremblay and all his organic crap drinks. Maurile had to nerve to give me a "kale shake" last week. WTF is up with that? For that reason we must part ways with MT.

This concludes the 2014 CCC Staff draft.

 

[Clifford]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

If the church removed the chanting, singing, throwing water on kids and any references to jesus, god, the bible or anything to do with religion, I'd be in.

Just for the stale crackers and cheap wine?

 

[Pastor]

So are you Roger Storms or John Anderson?

http://chandlercc.org/staff/

I am really enjoying the conversation in this thread but I have to rank the staff at the church on how they would do as FBG employee(going on only looks) in draft form.

Dodds and JB have a coin flip to determine who gets first pick or next two. Dodds call heads and it lands on tails. JB elects to take the first pick.

JB walks up to the podium.

With the first pick in the 2014 CCC staff draft JB selects......

1.1 - Matt Johnson

JB on MJ - Matt is a perfect fit for our crew with the bald head and goatee. Chris Smith is definitely on the trading block with the drafting of MJ.

DD walks up to the podium.

With the 1.2 and 2.1 picks DD selects.......

1.2 - Matt Agnew

2.1 - Jason Fox

DD on Agnew and Fox - We are confident in Fox and Agnew, but with no bald guys on the board we just have to wish for the best and hope nature takes it course. We believe in a year or two Agnew can develop some significant scalp. It may take longer for Fox's true potential to show. Drinen and Wood better be on their toes or they can lose playing time to Agnew and Fox.

With the 2.2 pick JB selects......

2.2 Roger Storms

JB on Storms. This was really a no brainer. Storms was one of two players left with a goatee. I was shocked when Dodds left him out there. Plus I have a doctor on my payroll but much prefer senior pastor. Unfortunately this acquisition means the end for Dr. Bramel. Jene has been a good for the organization but we can't afford to keep him and will be placed on waivers immediately.

With pick 3.1 DD selects....

3.1 - Jeff Hinson

DD on Hinson. We had Jeff pegged here from the start of the draft. He hands down had the best goatee in the draft and that was something we really coveted. There is only so much a baby faced Rudnicki can do for you. We needed to add more toughness and we accomplished that with this pick.

With pick 3.2 JB selects......

3.2 Danny Hughes.

JB on Hughes. We can't say enough good things about Danny's glasses and salt and pepper hair. We have been looking to up grade at the Sigmond Bloom position and we accomplished this late in the 3rd round. Could not be happier with this pick.

With DD's final pick he selects.......

4.1 Matt Myers

DD on Myers. How is this guy is still left on the board at this point? I have no idea. JB has drank too much kool aid to let him drop this far to me. He is a better version of Clayton Gray in every way. Not living in Arkansas is a huge plus for us. There is like 50 states and you picking Arkansas to live in tells you all you need to know about Gray.

With the final pick in the 2014 CCC Staff draft. JB selects (while drinking kool aid.)

4.2 Don Anderson

JB on Anderson. I really like cherry kool aid and grape too. But my favorite flavor is (interviewer interrupts: JB we are supposed to be talking about Anderson) Donnie, you want to know about Donnie, that's right. I believe Donnie can make the best kool aid on staff by training camp. I am sick of Tremblay and all his organic crap drinks. Maurile had to nerve to give me a "kale shake" last week. WTF is up with that? For that reason we must part ways with MT.

This concludes the 2014 CCC Staff draft.

Just for the record that is not how the real staff draft would go.

 

[IC FBGCav]

So are you Roger Storms or John Anderson?

http://chandlercc.org/staff/

I am really enjoying the conversation in this thread but I have to rank the staff at the church on how they would do as FBG employee(going on only looks) in draft form.

Dodds and JB have a coin flip to determine who gets first pick or next two. Dodds call heads and it lands on tails. JB elects to take the first pick.

JB walks up to the podium.

With the first pick in the 2014 CCC staff draft JB selects......

1.1 - Matt Johnson

JB on MJ - Matt is a perfect fit for our crew with the bald head and goatee. Chris Smith is definitely on the trading block with the drafting of MJ.

DD walks up to the podium.

With the 1.2 and 2.1 picks DD selects.......

1.2 - Matt Agnew

2.1 - Jason Fox

DD on Agnew and Fox - We are confident in Fox and Agnew, but with no bald guys on the board we just have to wish for the best and hope nature takes it course. We believe in a year or two Agnew can develop some significant scalp. It may take longer for Fox's true potential to show. Drinen and Wood better be on their toes or they can lose playing time to Agnew and Fox.

With the 2.2 pick JB selects......

2.2 Roger Storms

JB on Storms. This was really a no brainer. Storms was one of two players left with a goatee. I was shocked when Dodds left him out there. Plus I have a doctor on my payroll but much prefer senior pastor. Unfortunately this acquisition means the end for Dr. Bramel. Jene has been a good for the organization but we can't afford to keep him and will be placed on waivers immediately.

With pick 3.1 DD selects....

3.1 - Jeff Hinson

DD on Hinson. We had Jeff pegged here from the start of the draft. He hands down had the best goatee in the draft and that was something we really coveted. There is only so much a baby faced Rudnicki can do for you. We needed to add more toughness and we accomplished that with this pick.

With pick 3.2 JB selects......

3.2 Danny Hughes.

JB on Hughes. We can't say enough good things about Danny's glasses and salt and pepper hair. We have been looking to up grade at the Sigmond Bloom position and we accomplished this late in the 3rd round. Could not be happier with this pick.

With DD's final pick he selects.......

4.1 Matt Myers

DD on Myers. How is this guy is still left on the board at this point? I have no idea. JB has drank too much kool aid to let him drop this far to me. He is a better version of Clayton Gray in every way. Not living in Arkansas is a huge plus for us. There is like 50 states and you picking Arkansas to live in tells you all you need to know about Gray.

With the final pick in the 2014 CCC Staff draft. JB selects (while drinking kool aid.)

4.2 Don Anderson

JB on Anderson. I really like cherry kool aid and grape too. But my favorite flavor is (interviewer interrupts: JB we are supposed to be talking about Anderson) Donnie, you want to know about Donnie, that's right. I believe Donnie can make the best kool aid on staff by training camp. I am sick of Tremblay and all his organic crap drinks. Maurile had to nerve to give me a "kale shake" last week. WTF is up with that? For that reason we must part ways with MT.

This concludes the 2014 CCC Staff draft.

Just for the record that is not how the real staff draft would go.

Give us your order.

 

[culdeus]

There is a megachurch about a block or two from where I live. Definitely a huge focus on the younger crowd, seems very modern. I'm friends with a couple girls on Facebook who are always checking in at the church, usually with other good looking girls.

If tons of hot naive chicks aren't enough to get me to go I'm guessing nothing will. Maybe if they started offering an open bar I'd consider finding Jebus.

Watermark?

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

If the church removed the chanting, singing, throwing water on kids and any references to jesus, god, the bible or anything to do with religion, I'd be in.

We got it, Cliff.

 

[UniAlias]

There is a megachurch about a block or two from where I live. Definitely a huge focus on the younger crowd, seems very modern. I'm friends with a couple girls on Facebook who are always checking in at the church, usually with other good looking girls.

If tons of hot naive chicks aren't enough to get me to go I'm guessing nothing will. Maybe if they started offering an open bar I'd consider finding Jebus.

Watermark?

Yeah

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

I occasionally go to holiday services to a Megachurch in the North Atlanta burbs. (it may be one of Stanley's satellite churches, for all I know). It's a very "casual" church and a lot of the women dress halfway slutty. The music is terrible.

I'm kind of with what Tasker said above -- I was raised with a pretty strict Baptist upbringing. I just don't believe in so many of the core pieces that I really can't join the disconnect that I think I would be making to regularly attend a church. I do appreciate the good that some churches do with community outreach, though.

 

[McGarnicle]

I occasionally go to holiday services to a Megachurch in the North Atlanta burbs. (it may be one of Stanley's satellite churches, for all I know). It's a very "casual" church and a lot of the women dress halfway slutty. The music is terrible.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

I occasionally go to holiday services to a Megachurch in the North Atlanta burbs. (it may be one of Stanley's satellite churches, for all I know). It's a very "casual" church and a lot of the women dress halfway slutty. The music is terrible.

I get that they want to make it "hip" to reach a younger crowd who doesn't want old timey hymns -- but seriously that happy praise music with the people on stage looking like they're belting it out for an American Idol tryout and people in the crowd slowly waving their arms around and #### -- I'd rather listen to Harvey Fierstein sing One Direction songs.

 

[Steve Tasker]

There is a fundamental disconnect that I have with the Christian church where I simply don't believe the general fundamental tenets of the religion'

Any tenet in particular that causes the disconnect?

Leaving aside the political hot-button issues of the day (such as abortion, homosexuality, etc.), on which I pretty much disagree entirely with the church, there are some other issues. I can't say that I believe in a god, and certainly not in the sense of an omnipotent, omnipresent being. I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. The concept of transubstantiation has always seemed weird to me. I don't believe in the concept of an intelligent creation - I know the creation stories in the Bible probably aren't meant to be taken literally, but they do seem to require some sort of conceptual belief that a god had a hand in creation of life as we know it. I can't get there.

Those are some of the big ones. I realize no one agrees with EVERYTHING that their religion preaches, but the above seem like pretty important differences. I've always said I envy people of faith - regardless of their faith, be it Christianity or Islam or Judaism, whatever. And I do, because I just can't "get there", so to speak.

 

[Pastor]

So are you Roger Storms or John Anderson?

http://chandlercc.org/staff/

I am really enjoying the conversation in this thread but I have to rank the staff at the church on how they would do as FBG employee(going on only looks) in draft form.

Dodds and JB have a coin flip to determine who gets first pick or next two. Dodds call heads and it lands on tails. JB elects to take the first pick.

JB walks up to the podium.

With the first pick in the 2014 CCC staff draft JB selects......

1.1 - Matt Johnson

JB on MJ - Matt is a perfect fit for our crew with the bald head and goatee. Chris Smith is definitely on the trading block with the drafting of MJ.

DD walks up to the podium.

With the 1.2 and 2.1 picks DD selects.......

1.2 - Matt Agnew

2.1 - Jason Fox

DD on Agnew and Fox - We are confident in Fox and Agnew, but with no bald guys on the board we just have to wish for the best and hope nature takes it course. We believe in a year or two Agnew can develop some significant scalp. It may take longer for Fox's true potential to show. Drinen and Wood better be on their toes or they can lose playing time to Agnew and Fox.

With the 2.2 pick JB selects......

2.2 Roger Storms

JB on Storms. This was really a no brainer. Storms was one of two players left with a goatee. I was shocked when Dodds left him out there. Plus I have a doctor on my payroll but much prefer senior pastor. Unfortunately this acquisition means the end for Dr. Bramel. Jene has been a good for the organization but we can't afford to keep him and will be placed on waivers immediately.

With pick 3.1 DD selects....

3.1 - Jeff Hinson

DD on Hinson. We had Jeff pegged here from the start of the draft. He hands down had the best goatee in the draft and that was something we really coveted. There is only so much a baby faced Rudnicki can do for you. We needed to add more toughness and we accomplished that with this pick.

With pick 3.2 JB selects......

3.2 Danny Hughes.

JB on Hughes. We can't say enough good things about Danny's glasses and salt and pepper hair. We have been looking to up grade at the Sigmond Bloom position and we accomplished this late in the 3rd round. Could not be happier with this pick.

With DD's final pick he selects.......

4.1 Matt Myers

DD on Myers. How is this guy is still left on the board at this point? I have no idea. JB has drank too much kool aid to let him drop this far to me. He is a better version of Clayton Gray in every way. Not living in Arkansas is a huge plus for us. There is like 50 states and you picking Arkansas to live in tells you all you need to know about Gray.

With the final pick in the 2014 CCC Staff draft. JB selects (while drinking kool aid.)

4.2 Don Anderson

JB on Anderson. I really like cherry kool aid and grape too. But my favorite flavor is (interviewer interrupts: JB we are supposed to be talking about Anderson) Donnie, you want to know about Donnie, that's right. I believe Donnie can make the best kool aid on staff by training camp. I am sick of Tremblay and all his organic crap drinks. Maurile had to nerve to give me a "kale shake" last week. WTF is up with that? For that reason we must part ways with MT.

This concludes the 2014 CCC Staff draft.

Just for the record that is not how the real staff draft would go.

Give us your order.

I have to plead the 5th.

 

[Clifford]

I occasionally go to holiday services to a Megachurch in the North Atlanta burbs. (it may be one of Stanley's satellite churches, for all I know). It's a very "casual" church and a lot of the women dress halfway slutty. The music is terrible.

I get that they want to make it "hip" to reach a younger crowd who doesn't want old timey hymns -- but seriously that happy praise music with the people on stage looking like they're belting it out for an American Idol tryout and people in the crowd slowly waving their arms around and #### -- I'd rather listen to Harvey Fierstein sing One Direction songs.

As much I hated the old Hymns at my parents church, all it took was one quick session to the alternative. How on earth anyone convinces themselves that praise music is listenable, good God. Definitely not for me. I helped a friend write bio for a praise musician he was promoting. Stuff is about the exact opposite of anything I would choose to listen to.

 

[proninja]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

I don't know if you're asking the right question. For most who answered this, the answer was some variant of "well, I'd need to be a Christian, and since I'm not, I'm not going to go to church" which makes a lot of sense to me. If they want to give money or time to good causes, they're probably going to go straight to the cause and do it without the religion if they don't see a need for the religion.

Trying to make church appealing to non-Christians I don't see as a particularly useful goal. It just seems to end up like Lakewood where some guy like Osteen tells people what they want to hear and how God wants them all to have a Cadillac if they just keep giving cash to the church. And, unfortunately, I see this in megachurches a lot. They need butts in seats, and when your church's energy is entirely focused on getting butts in seats you can't help but neglect the discipleship of the people you've already got. You end up with a bunch of immature people (because most of the mature Christians leave for churches that more closely resemble what we see in Acts) who go see a show each weekend and the overworked and underpaid staff doesn't have time to do anything but deal with the people with the biggest problems. That doesn't delve into the cult of personality issues, or other issues inherent with megas.

Pastor, I appreciate the work that you do. My wife and I had dinner with good friends who are on staff at our old megachurch. I'm just becoming increasingly convinced that it's really, really hard for a church to be healthy once it gets so big.

 

[msommer]

I'm guessing a lot of consolidation takes place to form these mega churches. 1 church with 10,000 members vs 10 churches with 1,000 members.

Actually, they often tend to grow naturally without "assimilating" smaller churches. They are often reaching the nonchristian or those that are not going anywhere. We still have many small churches in the area. If every church in our area was full on Sunday only 1/3 of the population could attend.

Well when your church has basketball goals, rock climbing and tons of sporting activities, that probably helps too. I don't know what that has to do with the bible, God or Jesus.

Are you saying Jesus couldn't climb a rock wall?

He's already got anchors in his hands.

Well, we know he was no good at swimming...

 

[Jayrok]

You end up with a bunch of immature people (because most of the mature Christians leave for churches that more closely resemble what we see in Acts) who go see a show each weekend and the overworked and underpaid staff doesn't have time to do anything but deal with the people with the biggest problems.

Don't forget the banging social scene where Christian singles mingle and have all sorts of relations. "I'm new here and in the search for knowledge.. where do the carnal classes meet?"

 

[cheese]

Used to always attend traditional churches, but switched to megachurch about a year ago. Wife actually goes now and kids program is something smaller churches could only dream of. I'm not a huge fan of the music, but he gives a great message and it's worth it to go somewhere my family is on board with.

TONS of people 23-33 at these places, so that's an advantage compared to being by far the minority in most smaller churches.

 

[The Commish]

Used to always attend traditional churches, but switched to megachurch about a year ago. Wife actually goes now and kids program is something smaller churches could only dream of. I'm not a huge fan of the music, but he gives a great message and it's worth it to go somewhere my family is on board with.

TONS of people 23-33 at these places, so that's an advantage compared to being by far the minority in most smaller churches.

Are you still in Cincy?

 

[culdeus]

There is a megachurch about a block or two from where I live. Definitely a huge focus on the younger crowd, seems very modern. I'm friends with a couple girls on Facebook who are always checking in at the church, usually with other good looking girls.

If tons of hot naive chicks aren't enough to get me to go I'm guessing nothing will. Maybe if they started offering an open bar I'd consider finding Jebus.

Watermark?

Yeah

I'm hearing they dropped 25 Million on that place. Looks like total #### from the outside. That is the place I do hear that the singles groups is fish in a barrel.

You should try to go and see if you can haul one out to the Como Motel between service and sunday school. Bonus points if you bag a guy.

 

[UniAlias]

There is a megachurch about a block or two from where I live. Definitely a huge focus on the younger crowd, seems very modern. I'm friends with a couple girls on Facebook who are always checking in at the church, usually with other good looking girls.

If tons of hot naive chicks aren't enough to get me to go I'm guessing nothing will. Maybe if they started offering an open bar I'd consider finding Jebus.

Watermark?

Yeah

I'm hearing they dropped 25 Million on that place. Looks like total #### from the outside. That is the place I do hear that the singles groups is fish in a barrel.

You should try to go and see if you can haul one out to the Como Motel between service and sunday school. Bonus points if you bag a guy.

 

[Pastor]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

I don't know if you're asking the right question. For most who answered this, the answer was some variant of "well, I'd need to be a Christian, and since I'm not, I'm not going to go to church" which makes a lot of sense to me. If they want to give money or time to good causes, they're probably going to go straight to the cause and do it without the religion if they don't see a need for the religion.

Trying to make church appealing to non-Christians I don't see as a particularly useful goal. It just seems to end up like Lakewood where some guy like Osteen tells people what they want to hear and how God wants them all to have a Cadillac if they just keep giving cash to the church. And, unfortunately, I see this in megachurches a lot. They need butts in seats, and when your church's energy is entirely focused on getting butts in seats you can't help but neglect the discipleship of the people you've already got. You end up with a bunch of immature people (because most of the mature Christians leave for churches that more closely resemble what we see in Acts) who go see a show each weekend and the overworked and underpaid staff doesn't have time to do anything but deal with the people with the biggest problems. That doesn't delve into the cult of personality issues, or other issues inherent with megas.

Pastor, I appreciate the work that you do. My wife and I had dinner with good friends who are on staff at our old megachurch. I'm just becoming increasingly convinced that it's really, really hard for a church to be healthy once it gets so big.

I see from the responses that our church is not typical of what many have encountered with a megachurch. There are unhealthy churches of all sizes. Being smaller does not necessarily mean that you discipling any better. Actually one of the best areas of our church is our discipleship set-up. It is unfortunate that the general view is so negative. I think the TV preachers have skewed the reality of a healthy megachurch. Thanks

 

[proninja]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

I don't know if you're asking the right question. For most who answered this, the answer was some variant of "well, I'd need to be a Christian, and since I'm not, I'm not going to go to church" which makes a lot of sense to me. If they want to give money or time to good causes, they're probably going to go straight to the cause and do it without the religion if they don't see a need for the religion.

Trying to make church appealing to non-Christians I don't see as a particularly useful goal. It just seems to end up like Lakewood where some guy like Osteen tells people what they want to hear and how God wants them all to have a Cadillac if they just keep giving cash to the church. And, unfortunately, I see this in megachurches a lot. They need butts in seats, and when your church's energy is entirely focused on getting butts in seats you can't help but neglect the discipleship of the people you've already got. You end up with a bunch of immature people (because most of the mature Christians leave for churches that more closely resemble what we see in Acts) who go see a show each weekend and the overworked and underpaid staff doesn't have time to do anything but deal with the people with the biggest problems. That doesn't delve into the cult of personality issues, or other issues inherent with megas.

Pastor, I appreciate the work that you do. My wife and I had dinner with good friends who are on staff at our old megachurch. I'm just becoming increasingly convinced that it's really, really hard for a church to be healthy once it gets so big.

I see from the responses that our church is not typical of what many have encountered with a megachurch. There are unhealthy churches of all sizes. Being smaller does not necessarily mean that you discipling any better. Actually one of the best areas of our church is our discipleship set-up. It is unfortunate that the general view is so negative. I think the TV preachers have skewed the reality of a healthy megachurch. Thanks

You're not paying attention. I've spent the better part of the last decade at a megachurch. I've seen it grow from 150 when I joined up to over 15k now. My experience has nothing to do with TV preachers, who are generally a completely different breed of charlatan. My criticisms of megachurches come from years of being intimately involved in various positions of lay leadership (in my church's primary vehicle for discipleship, actually.) I feel that I brought some good points to the table, and you dismissed them by saying "oh, you're just looking at the tv preachers." Come on, man. I'm doing my best to give you the benefit of the doubt and actually discuss this, unlike some in here. Would you mind doing the same?

Totally agree that there are unhealthy small churches that disciple poorly. The difference is that the way they are set up doesn't inherently lend itself to poor discipleship like a mega does. They're just bad at it. And the fact that some small churches are bad at it doesn't change a thing about megas. The church I just left tries really hard to disciple their people well. They mean well. It just is basically impossible with the ratio of leaders to congregants.

 

[Jayrok]

There is a fundamental disconnect that I have with the Christian church where I simply don't believe the general fundamental tenets of the religion'

Any tenet in particular that causes the disconnect?

Leaving aside the political hot-button issues of the day (such as abortion, homosexuality, etc.), on which I pretty much disagree entirely with the church, there are some other issues. I can't say that I believe in a god, and certainly not in the sense of an omnipotent, omnipresent being. I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. The concept of transubstantiation has always seemed weird to me. I don't believe in the concept of an intelligent creation - I know the creation stories in the Bible probably aren't meant to be taken literally, but they do seem to require some sort of conceptual belief that a god had a hand in creation of life as we know it. I can't get there.

Those are some of the big ones. I realize no one agrees with EVERYTHING that their religion preaches, but the above seem like pretty important differences. I've always said I envy people of faith - regardless of their faith, be it Christianity or Islam or Judaism, whatever. And I do, because I just can't "get there", so to speak.

I'm not prepared to go as far as to say, with any certainty, that there is no creator. I just have a hard time reconciling any supreme being with the one described in the Bible. A creator capable of bringing about our planet, solar system, universe... it just doesn't seem possible that this entity would be interested in making sure humans worship him/her instead of other mythical gods through idols and the like... or act out against humanity if they didn't comply with some primitive lawful decrees. Without scientific discovery of our celestial surroundings, it isn't difficult to image that the earth could possibly be the center of the universe and the primary focus of its creator. But we know more and more of how small we actually are in even our own remote galaxy.

The requirement for blood sacrifice, whether an animal or human/god, only reaches at making sense in ancient tribal societies. For this type of event to be the ultimate plan for all of humanity just makes no sense at all. Personally I think Christianity got it wrong when it forced God to require blood in order to forgive sins. The Old Testament doesn't require it. There are other things that Christianity seemed, IMO, to take liberties with from the other Hebrew religion.

Like you, I also envy the faithful. I wish I had the childlike faith that my wife has. I think faith such as that is a good thing, whether any of it is true or not. I think this because it allows one to have hope in something greater than what we see and the ability to lean on a worldview that cares for others during times of dispair. It brings people together (not to say that a secular system does not or can not) and can bring about good feelings about yourself, for instance when you ask forgiveness through prayer when you feel you've done wrong or were hurtful to someone else.

There's certainly a calming there. Sure, it could be a type of placebo effect, but does it matter? Faith can be a very positive thing. Can we have faith in God/creator without believing the events in the Bible?

 

[Jayrok]

My experience has nothing to do with TV preachers, who are generally a completely different breed of charlatan.

Hey, that Creflo Dollar spins a nice yarn. Very dynamic. Put Creflo and TD Jakes on the same stage? forget it..

 

[McGarnicle]

My experience has nothing to do with TV preachers, who are generally a completely different breed of charlatan.

Hey, that Creflo Dollar spins a nice yarn. Very dynamic. Put Creflo and TD Jakes on the same stage? forget it..

Creflo Dollar's crib

Creflo Dollar's ride

 

[Jayrok]

My experience has nothing to do with TV preachers, who are generally a completely different breed of charlatan.

Hey, that Creflo Dollar spins a nice yarn. Very dynamic. Put Creflo and TD Jakes on the same stage? forget it..

Creflo Dollar's crib

Creflo Dollar's ride

Straight ballin'

 

[proninja]

My experience has nothing to do with TV preachers, who are generally a completely different breed of charlatan.

Hey, that Creflo Dollar spins a nice yarn. Very dynamic. Put Creflo and TD Jakes on the same stage? forget it..

I'm peeling my wallet out of my jeans right now. I can't help it!

 

[Pastor]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

I don't know if you're asking the right question. For most who answered this, the answer was some variant of "well, I'd need to be a Christian, and since I'm not, I'm not going to go to church" which makes a lot of sense to me. If they want to give money or time to good causes, they're probably going to go straight to the cause and do it without the religion if they don't see a need for the religion.

Trying to make church appealing to non-Christians I don't see as a particularly useful goal. It just seems to end up like Lakewood where some guy like Osteen tells people what they want to hear and how God wants them all to have a Cadillac if they just keep giving cash to the church. And, unfortunately, I see this in megachurches a lot. They need butts in seats, and when your church's energy is entirely focused on getting butts in seats you can't help but neglect the discipleship of the people you've already got. You end up with a bunch of immature people (because most of the mature Christians leave for churches that more closely resemble what we see in Acts) who go see a show each weekend and the overworked and underpaid staff doesn't have time to do anything but deal with the people with the biggest problems. That doesn't delve into the cult of personality issues, or other issues inherent with megas.

Pastor, I appreciate the work that you do. My wife and I had dinner with good friends who are on staff at our old megachurch. I'm just becoming increasingly convinced that it's really, really hard for a church to be healthy once it gets so big.

I see from the responses that our church is not typical of what many have encountered with a megachurch. There are unhealthy churches of all sizes. Being smaller does not necessarily mean that you discipling any better. Actually one of the best areas of our church is our discipleship set-up. It is unfortunate that the general view is so negative. I think the TV preachers have skewed the reality of a healthy megachurch. Thanks

You're not paying attention. I've spent the better part of the last decade at a megachurch. I've seen it grow from 150 when I joined up to over 15k now. My experience has nothing to do with TV preachers, who are generally a completely different breed of charlatan. My criticisms of megachurches come from years of being intimately involved in various positions of lay leadership (in my church's primary vehicle for discipleship, actually.) I feel that I brought some good points to the table, and you dismissed them by saying "oh, you're just looking at the tv preachers." Come on, man. I'm doing my best to give you the benefit of the doubt and actually discuss this, unlike some in here. Would you mind doing the same?

Totally agree that there are unhealthy small churches that disciple poorly. The difference is that the way they are set up doesn't inherently lend itself to poor discipleship like a mega does. They're just bad at it. And the fact that some small churches are bad at it doesn't change a thing about megas. The church I just left tries really hard to disciple their people well. They mean well. It just is basically impossible with the ratio of leaders to congregants.

I was not referring to your response specifically. It was a general statement about the responses as a whole.

I disagree with the statement that smaller churches structure is better for discipleship. The reason many are smaller is because they don't understand how to develop and grow people. People feel like it is "deeper" or they are being discipled because they know most of the people in the church.

 

[proninja]

I disagree with the statement that smaller churches structure is better for discipleship. The reason many are smaller is because they don't understand how to develop and grow people. People feel like it is "deeper" or they are being discipled because they know most of the people in the church.

So it is your contention that smaller churches are inherently unhealthier than larger churches, because "healthy things grow" like you mentioned earlier?

 

[Pastor]

I disagree with the statement that smaller churches structure is better for discipleship. The reason many are smaller is because they don't understand how to develop and grow people. People feel like it is "deeper" or they are being discipled because they know most of the people in the church.

So it is your contention that smaller churches are inherently unhealthier than larger churches, because "healthy things grow" like you mentioned earlier?

No, the sweeping generalizations of any church being good or bad based on size is a problem. They are all so unique that it just depends on the individual congregation. I think that you will agree though that the smaller ones that excel in discipleship and acting like the church should, do grow. It is definitely easier to pinpoint disfunction in a smaller body because of the level of relationship everyone has. I also think the broad definition of health is an issue. Most churches I have been associated with have some area that is not "healthy". Again, it all depends on the leadership in that specific church.

 

[The Commish]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I struggle with my brother's path and what it appears to be doing to him. Here's a timely piece from someone in the denomination I grew up in. I personally think he misses the mark on the larger issue, though I do believe there is truth in what he says in regard to SOME nondenominational churches. I have seen with my own two eyes very different reasons.

 

[proninja]

I disagree with the statement that smaller churches structure is better for discipleship. The reason many are smaller is because they don't understand how to develop and grow people. People feel like it is "deeper" or they are being discipled because they know most of the people in the church.

So it is your contention that smaller churches are inherently unhealthier than larger churches, because "healthy things grow" like you mentioned earlier?

No, the sweeping generalizations of any church being good or bad based on size is a problem. They are all so unique that it just depends on the individual congregation. I think that you will agree though that the smaller ones that excel in discipleship and acting like the church should, do grow. It is definitely easier to pinpoint disfunction in a smaller body because of the level of relationship everyone has. I also think the broad definition of health is an issue. Most churches I have been associated with have some area that is not "healthy". Again, it all depends on the leadership in that specific church.

I agree that sweeping generalizations based on size are bad. That doesn't mean we can't have a conversation on the relative strengths/weaknesses of church size, and what I perceive to be the weaknesses of megas. Certainly, small churches have weaknesses too. I hope that you wouldn't be so sold out for megachurches that you aren't willing to admit that there are tendencies toward certain weaknesses inherent with them.

No, not all the smaller ones that excel in discipleship and acting like the church grow. I had the good fortune of going to an exceptionally healthy church out of town a few weeks ago. It's been most of the same people for the last 25 years, they have been very faithful, the guys were all learning greek together, they are very faithful, and they've been a great blessing to a few missionary families, my in laws among them. They are a church of mature believers that have been well cared for by their pastor. They're small. They're most of the same people. Why do we assume that simply because a church stays the same size that it is unhealthy - or that if it were healthy it would grow? Where is the biblical support for that?

 

[Pastor]

I disagree with the statement that smaller churches structure is better for discipleship. The reason many are smaller is because they don't understand how to develop and grow people. People feel like it is "deeper" or they are being discipled because they know most of the people in the church.

So it is your contention that smaller churches are inherently unhealthier than larger churches, because "healthy things grow" like you mentioned earlier?

No, the sweeping generalizations of any church being good or bad based on size is a problem. They are all so unique that it just depends on the individual congregation. I think that you will agree though that the smaller ones that excel in discipleship and acting like the church should, do grow. It is definitely easier to pinpoint disfunction in a smaller body because of the level of relationship everyone has. I also think the broad definition of health is an issue. Most churches I have been associated with have some area that is not "healthy". Again, it all depends on the leadership in that specific church.

I agree that sweeping generalizations based on size are bad. That doesn't mean we can't have a conversation on the relative strengths/weaknesses of church size, and what I perceive to be the weaknesses of megas. Certainly, small churches have weaknesses too. I hope that you wouldn't be so sold out for megachurches that you aren't willing to admit that there are tendencies toward certain weaknesses inherent with them.

No, not all the smaller ones that excel in discipleship and acting like the church grow. I had the good fortune of going to an exceptionally healthy church out of town a few weeks ago. It's been most of the same people for the last 25 years, they have been very faithful, the guys were all learning greek together, they are very faithful, and they've been a great blessing to a few missionary families, my in laws among them. They are a church of mature believers that have been well cared for by their pastor. They're small. They're most of the same people. Why do we assume that simply because a church stays the same size that it is unhealthy - or that if it were healthy it would grow? Where is the biblical support for that?

I have been in small churches much longer than I have been part of a large one. I completely agree that each have their own natural weaknesses. Connections and stronger relationships are definitely tougher in a larger church.

Part of being healthy is evangelism. If the church is not making new disciples then how can it be healthy? I think we are talking about two different things. I think there can be churches mostly composed of mature believers that are small. They can have many issues that keep them small like having a pastor who is not a gifted leader, most of the members not having the gift of evangelism or other constraints that take time, resources and energy away from evangelism. These are just a few reasons why churches can have mature believers but not be completely healthy. I definitely don't think a lot of Mega churches are healthy just because they grow. Evangelism is just one component of health.

The Biblical support for healthy things growing is the model we see in Acts that the church added to their number daily. That is the goal of the church. When the church is alive and healthy people are drawn to it. We also see that at work in all of God's creation.

You do make a good point about supporting of missions. Some churches use many resources to help missionaries reach new fields. This is definitely a form of growth and should taken into account when looking at over all health.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

The Catholic religion wouldn't be a megachurch?

Seems like its' way bigger.

 

[cheese]

Used to always attend traditional churches, but switched to megachurch about a year ago. Wife actually goes now and kids program is something smaller churches could only dream of. I'm not a huge fan of the music, but he gives a great message and it's worth it to go somewhere my family is on board with.

TONS of people 23-33 at these places, so that's an advantage compared to being by far the minority in most smaller churches.

Are you still in Cincy?

Left downtown for suburbs, but basically yes.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Thank you for your insight. If a church did those things you are talking about in community would you check them out? Or is that not an option no matter what? What would it take for you to visit the church? TIA (This question is really for anyone that does not attend a church.)

I don't know if you're asking the right question. For most who answered this, the answer was some variant of "well, I'd need to be a Christian, and since I'm not, I'm not going to go to church" which makes a lot of sense to me. If they want to give money or time to good causes, they're probably going to go straight to the cause and do it without the religion if they don't see a need for the religion.

Trying to make church appealing to non-Christians I don't see as a particularly useful goal. It just seems to end up like Lakewood where some guy like Osteen tells people what they want to hear and how God wants them all to have a Cadillac if they just keep giving cash to the church. And, unfortunately, I see this in megachurches a lot. They need butts in seats, and when your church's energy is entirely focused on getting butts in seats you can't help but neglect the discipleship of the people you've already got. You end up with a bunch of immature people (because most of the mature Christians leave for churches that more closely resemble what we see in Acts) who go see a show each weekend and the overworked and underpaid staff doesn't have time to do anything but deal with the people with the biggest problems. That doesn't delve into the cult of personality issues, or other issues inherent with megas.

Pastor, I appreciate the work that you do. My wife and I had dinner with good friends who are on staff at our old megachurch. I'm just becoming increasingly convinced that it's really, really hard for a church to be healthy once it gets so big.

I see from the responses that our church is not typical of what many have encountered with a megachurch. There are unhealthy churches of all sizes. Being smaller does not necessarily mean that you discipling any better. Actually one of the best areas of our church is our discipleship set-up. It is unfortunate that the general view is so negative. I think the TV preachers have skewed the reality of a healthy megachurch. Thanks

Come on, man. I'm doing my best to give you the benefit of the doubt and actually discuss this, unlike some in here. Would you mind doing the same?

That isnt fair: I thought I was giving him the benefit of the doubt when I put the question mark after "Ted Haggard".

 

[proninja]

I disagree with the statement that smaller churches structure is better for discipleship. The reason many are smaller is because they don't understand how to develop and grow people. People feel like it is "deeper" or they are being discipled because they know most of the people in the church.

So it is your contention that smaller churches are inherently unhealthier than larger churches, because "healthy things grow" like you mentioned earlier?

No, the sweeping generalizations of any church being good or bad based on size is a problem. They are all so unique that it just depends on the individual congregation. I think that you will agree though that the smaller ones that excel in discipleship and acting like the church should, do grow. It is definitely easier to pinpoint disfunction in a smaller body because of the level of relationship everyone has. I also think the broad definition of health is an issue. Most churches I have been associated with have some area that is not "healthy". Again, it all depends on the leadership in that specific church.

I agree that sweeping generalizations based on size are bad. That doesn't mean we can't have a conversation on the relative strengths/weaknesses of church size, and what I perceive to be the weaknesses of megas. Certainly, small churches have weaknesses too. I hope that you wouldn't be so sold out for megachurches that you aren't willing to admit that there are tendencies toward certain weaknesses inherent with them.

No, not all the smaller ones that excel in discipleship and acting like the church grow. I had the good fortune of going to an exceptionally healthy church out of town a few weeks ago. It's been most of the same people for the last 25 years, they have been very faithful, the guys were all learning greek together, they are very faithful, and they've been a great blessing to a few missionary families, my in laws among them. They are a church of mature believers that have been well cared for by their pastor. They're small. They're most of the same people. Why do we assume that simply because a church stays the same size that it is unhealthy - or that if it were healthy it would grow? Where is the biblical support for that?

I have been in small churches much longer than I have been part of a large one. I completely agree that each have their own natural weaknesses. Connections and stronger relationships are definitely tougher in a larger church.

Part of being healthy is evangelism. If the church is not making new disciples then how can it be healthy? I think we are talking about two different things. I think there can be churches mostly composed of mature believers that are small. They can have many issues that keep them small like having a pastor who is not a gifted leader, most of the members not having the gift of evangelism or other constraints that take time, resources and energy away from evangelism. These are just a few reasons why churches can have mature believers but not be completely healthy. I definitely don't think a lot of Mega churches are healthy just because they grow. Evangelism is just one component of health.

The Biblical support for healthy things growing is the model we see in Acts that the church added to their number daily. That is the goal of the church. When the church is alive and healthy people are drawn to it. We also see that at work in all of God's creation.

You do make a good point about supporting of missions. Some churches use many resources to help missionaries reach new fields. This is definitely a form of growth and should taken into account when looking at over all health.

Actually, no, we don't see that the church added to their number daily. We see that the Lord added to their number daily. Here's the most relevant text. This is something I've been thinking about a little bit lately, so thanks for the opportunity to do a little digging on it.

The Fellowship of the Believers And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. (Acts 2:42-47 ESV)

Christ gives us the means, but he forces us to trust him with the ends. In this passage in Acts we see the early church living together - studying, taking communion, prraying together, and helping each other. We don't see them prioritize evangelizing, especially not to the detriment of what God has trusted the church with.

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says that he will build his church. In Matthew 6:33 he tells us to "seek first the kingdom of God" and in Matthew 28 he says to make disciples. It seems very clear that in whichever spot in the bible I look, it is the church's responsibility to seek God and make disciples, and it is Jesus' job to build his church. Megas oftentimes (inherently maybe?) overprioritize butts in seats, and in so decide that God isn't doing a good enough job of building his church, and they take that responsibility on themselves. When they do that, they use different means than God has given us. Nowhere in Acts does it say "marketing campaign" or "youth group" or "record label" or "concerts in our 30 million dollar building." It says the Lord added to their number, and the church studied the Word, administered the sacraments, prayed together, and sacrificed for each other. I think that is a fantastic model, and though I have been very bleessed by the ministry of a megachurch, as I have grown and learned a bit, everything I learn seems to point me away from that model in favor of what we see in Acts.

It seems to me that, in reading the NT, Jesus is going to build his church. We should focus on the job he has given the church, rather than the job he has kept for himself.

edit: If you prefer a different translation, I'm happy to use something else. It's just that the mega I went to for years has a book deal with the ESV - the pastor switched to it some years ago in order to profit, and it's what I'm used to.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Hymnal style: "Drivin' fer Jezus, drivin' for jezus!!! ...makin' all the lights!" - George Carlin

 

[joffer]

Megachurch pastor resigns, citing 'moral failing'

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/07/megachurch-pastor-resigns-citing-moral-failing/