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Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter David Dodds
- Start date
Otis
Footballguy
Probably.Nuke safety guy being interviewed on CNN right now just said he thinks the JP gov is being honest.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Let's ask Glenn Beck what he thinks about chaos theory, and maybe Ed Schultz can teach us how to barbecue a rack of ribs.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Do you really think this is a reasonable analogy? Maddow's guest was a professor of nuclear physics from Princeton. He was a very reasonable guy IMO, and her questions to him were incisive and yet allowed the ignorant layman (me) to understand. This is the sort of issue where I find Rachel Maddow to be especially valuable. Unlike so many hosts, she does not sensationalize. Yes, she begins with a partisan point of view, but I don't care about that. I want information, and she gives it to me.
bueno
In a class by himself
Mine is a fair question, The fire was a grease fire - easily put out. The explosions were hydrogen gas. Neither was nuclear fuel.
bueno
In a class by himself
They are spent - i.e. their supply of fissionable uranium was low enough that they could not be used for fission reactions anymore. There is still radioactive decay of course. But there is no potential for release of radioactive elements except for radon, which or course decays to a radioactive variety of bismuth and then lead. Of course radon is not an issue if the area is ventilated as many homeowners already know.
Well, at least it won't be the China syndrome. More like Argentina.Look, when the sky is falling, you don't want to act rational. Better to believe all mankind will perish in a nuclear holocaust. But look on the bright side; the nuclear winter will solve the global warming problem.
Topes
Footballguy
Got a link?
bueno
In a class by himself
If I get trying to explain something to a chicken little and the chicken little still runs around like it just met the headsman, I would stop talking to him eventually as well.
GreatLakesMike
Footballguy
lol... par for the course for you. I wasn't asking for Google links. I'd like to hear from a few of the knowledgable posters in this thread. I know that despite your efforts, you're not the center of attention in this thread, but it's ok Otis. Take a deep breath and touch yourself.
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Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
quick aside/tangent.
I usually get my news on the internet. But I started to watch more news on TV. CNN, FOX, and MSNBC have all been selling ads to the oil and gas industry and other private companies like Chevron. It makes my skin crawl. They are taking advantage of this horrible event to profit off of it and and create an illusion that gas and oil is producing jobs and touting sophisiticated oil drilling procedures. They would not dare run these ads around the time of the gulf oil spill. These ads are disgusting and the people who are the paid actors who are trying to represent joe everyman american have sold thier soul to the devil.
I usually get my news on the internet. But I started to watch more news on TV. CNN, FOX, and MSNBC have all been selling ads to the oil and gas industry and other private companies like Chevron. It makes my skin crawl. They are taking advantage of this horrible event to profit off of it and and create an illusion that gas and oil is producing jobs and touting sophisiticated oil drilling procedures. They would not dare run these ads around the time of the gulf oil spill. These ads are disgusting and the people who are the paid actors who are trying to represent joe everyman american have sold thier soul to the devil.
bueno
In a class by himself
Not sure of the 100X but the object is to keep the core cool until short half-life daughter products completely decay. As there is no fission reactions going on, those daughters are not being produced. Once what was produced decays, no more heat.But still normal radioactive decay - which does not produce copius amounts of heat, but still produces admittedly smaller amounts of radiation.Howe.ver the first decay product is protactinium, which has a long half life
Topes
Footballguy
Official: U.S. getting 'paucity of good data' on radiation from JapanAccording to an "official" who "spoke on background because he was not authorized to speak publicly" the gubmint is getting the same cold shoulder on this.
(I really hate when they won't go on record. Sometimes seems the Obama administration does this more than Bush administration did, and they did it a lot.)
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
Thanks, ham.
bueno
In a class by himself
Every cloud has a silver lining. Just makes you glow inside, doesn't it?
To be clear, the no-fly zone has reasons for it that might have nothing to do with radiation. The plants are already somewhat compromised, and nuclear power plants are prime terror targets. I would expect a no fly zone to be instituted around ANY power plant ANYWHERE in the world that had any sort of containment porblems, regardless of the nature of the problem or the risk (or non-risk) to people on the planes. Don't read anything into a NF zone.
I vehemently disagree. The fact that deadly radiation levels aren't found 1/2 mile from the plant is a VERY strong suggestion that the problem is generally being controlled, and that the apocolyptic scenarios espoused simply aren't happening or going to happen.ETA: There's at least two people in this thread who've had intimate, first hand experiance with NUC power...and some folks in here have categorically ignored us in favor of talking heads on TV that have been made to look foolish virtually every time they interview a credible source.
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Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I understand your frustration. As an American, we take withholding of information/intel as lying. It's ingrained in us from all the cop shows we watch. But in Japan, they have a culture of withholding information and sending it out to thier convenience. And the Japanese culture willingly stands by and abides. It's a culture shock. I think the spent rods even if they catch fire only pose a risk to the immediate area of those who would put out the fire. The half-lives of these spent rods is not going to produce the daughters that will contribute to airborne radiation. We'll see if the international community puts any pressure on the Japanese Gov't to verify this information. I don't think the Japanese are willingly withholding information we need to know. It will all come out soon enough and they would not risk loss of face for telling us a misleading story.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Really, you and who else? Sure you are not leaving anyone else out?
Indeed. But remember, I was Illuminati before everyone became Illuminati.
Possibly, if personel can't find a way to keep them covered, AND they are exposed to fire, etc. This should be relatively simple though...as we are literaly talking about a simple pool of water covering solid objects which are essentially spent and dormant. Without that pool, they still only pose a threat (to the public) if they are somehow being ravaged by something like fire. Uncovered and with nothing like fire, they are a serious source of RADIATION...NOT AIRBORNE CONTAMINATION. Radiation alone = LOCAL (as in IMMEDIATE vicinity) danger.
bueno
In a class by himself
Just to add to that renesauz said, it will take weeks for the daughter products to decay and the fuel to cool down. You can expect this drama to continue until things are cool enough to start clean up.
yes. (in laymans terms anyway)
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I call
Bueno
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Really, he is the graduate of the university of google. No there is someone else.
bueno
In a class by himself
Love to hear your reasoning here.I call
bueno
In a class by himself
You forgot wilked
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I am not defending my comment. I am waiting to hear his reasoning. There are no procedures for flooding reactors with seawater in Reactor Plant Systems school.Love to hear your reasoning here.I call
bueno
In a class by himself
You're just saying that because you know I'm a Broncos fan.
soothsayer
Footballguy
Isn't this exactly what they fear is now happening in reactor 4 where spent rods are stored? That they are both exposed and on fire?And renesauz, I'm pretty sure that one can be both concerned AND interested in learning about the realities of what is going on - they aren't mutually exclusive ideas.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I suppose I should be more clear. While the impact would be less, the actual risk for a full meltdown DRAMATICALLY decreases every day. To call the total risk 100X less every day the fuel is kept covered, even with seawater, is a very fair analogy/figure. (Thus the "laymans terms" note.)Meltdown is a frequently misused term. It actually means the fuel has melted and distorted such that it is no longer a viable power core. It does NOT necessarily mean that it has turned into some molten slag that is burrowing its way into the earth while still undergoing fission (like at Chernobyl). Saying that these reactors have had a "meltdown" is PROBABLY correct, but it does not mean the end of the world as we know it.
There are in the NAVY.
It probably is what they fear,but as I said, this problem is relatively easy to handle if they can get anywher close to that fire and fuel, which it appears they can. IE: It may be a very grave danger, but it's a very simple one to fight.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
This deserves a (insert ex Viking great Chris Carter) "CMON MAAAN!!!". Since when did the Navy get soft about explaining things in "laymans terms"? Either you know your #### or shut the #### up in the Navy. They eat their young. And the lowest ranked officer is encouraged to call BS in loud voice if someone is caught stuttering. That's the Navy I know.
wilked
Footballguy
Bueno has done a good job presenting info here. He has not claimed to be an expert, and has self-taught himself a lot of stuff over the last couple of days, not sure what is wrong with that. If people have more complete information no reason not to add to or correct his comments...
I can't keep up with the whole thing, just no time. I did read that US Operator Q&A message board thing, that was a good read.
What really sucks is the 50 guys who are now 'going down with the ship'. These guys are all shortening their lives for certain, by what extent who can tell, but just imagine that:
1) Huge earthquake / tsunami, you are scrambling to determine the whereabouts / safety of your family
2) Except that the #### is hitting the fan at work, and your boss makes it clear you are critical to saving the nuclear plant
3) You learn that your family (if they are ok) now has to evacuate, leave everything behind (including you)
4) After a few days of little to no sleep it becomes clear / you are told that there will be no relief, you are expected to remain behind until this thing is somewhat under control
5) And radiation levels are long past safe.
I can't keep up with the whole thing, just no time. I did read that US Operator Q&A message board thing, that was a good read.
What really sucks is the 50 guys who are now 'going down with the ship'. These guys are all shortening their lives for certain, by what extent who can tell, but just imagine that:
1) Huge earthquake / tsunami, you are scrambling to determine the whereabouts / safety of your family
2) Except that the #### is hitting the fan at work, and your boss makes it clear you are critical to saving the nuclear plant
3) You learn that your family (if they are ok) now has to evacuate, leave everything behind (including you)
4) After a few days of little to no sleep it becomes clear / you are told that there will be no relief, you are expected to remain behind until this thing is somewhat under control
5) And radiation levels are long past safe.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
No, they are not.
LMAO You gonna tell me about what we discussed and talked about in NPS? I was an INSTRUCTOR at NPTU Ballston Spa. Machinsts Mate First Class/Leading Engineering Laboratory Technician. I handled chemistry and RADIOLOGICAL CONTROLS. I was also certified to supervise relatively high level radiological work.My expertise then, is in smaller pressurized water reactors, but it is very real. Seawater is a viable, and discussed, last resort source for cooling water. I would expect any civilian plant close to an ocean would have a (deep in the books) emergency procedure for implementing its use as a last resort.
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joffer
Footballguy
he's right. i've read a lot of Tom Clancy
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Oh, I see. I used to order you squids around on test procedures in the shipyard. I imagine if you wanted to scuttle a boat, you could discuss that, but that is almost unfathomable. Not ever discussed in any procedures I did.
soothsayer
Footballguy
CNN is reporting (Anderson Cooper) that Japanese officials have SUSPENDED emergency operations at the Fukushima plant. Anderson keeps trying to say they are trying to further confirm the report, but if true that has to be a harbinger of very bad things. While a fire impacting exposed rods may be containable, if this news is true, there will be no one available to contain whatever is now happening. Let's hope Mr. Cooper/CNN is wrong.
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Insoxicated
Are you going to sit here with your head on a swivel yelling "NUH UH!!!!" over and over again or are you going to present some information? Reading over what renesauz has posted and what you've posted in this thread it's pretty damn clear one of you knows what they're talking about. Let me cut any suspense for ya... it ain't you.
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Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
it's classified. I could tell you but then I have to kill you.
If you're using seawater, the plant is gonna be scuttled anyway.
