Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (3 Viewers)

[Raiderfan32904]

Oh, I see. I used to order you squids around on test procedures in the shipyard. I imagine if you wanted to scuttle a boat, you could discuss that, but that is almost unfathomable. Not ever discussed in any procedures I did.

If you're using seawater, the plant is gonna be scuttled anyway.

That is a valid point. I must give you that.

 

[FavreCo]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-local-iodide-sales-20110315,0,7465375.story

Get one before they run out and you start glowing. Unbelievable stupidity.

 

[bueno]

Japanese government has announced they are evacuating the plant. More to follow.

translator said there was a rapid increase in radiation levels and all 50 workershave been evacuated. Unfortunately she blew the exact radiation measurement, so it is hard to know how high.

Without workers there to keep the reactors cool, containment vessel breaches are likely inevitable and the last line of defense is - well the last line of defense.

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

CNN: Workers at Japan's damaged nuclear power plant have suspended operations and evacuated, chief Cabinet secretary says.

 

[Otis]

CNN: Workers at Japan's damaged nuclear power plant have suspended operations and evacuated, chief Cabinet secretary says.

Anderson Cooper talking about this now. CNN obviously saying this is really bad. Hard to know what's going on for sure.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Japanese government has announced they are evacuating the plant. More to follow.

Thanks for the update. :worried:

 

[timschochet]

I'm done for tonight. Some of y'all might wanna swing a graphite golf club to go with the foil hats.

Bigtime thanks to you, and to Bueno, and even to Wilked (though he thinks I'm an uncaring *******) for providing the rest of us so much info in this thread. Whether the news is good or bad, it's always better to know, and I've learned a lot about this from reading the three of you. This is one of the reasons the FFA can at times be so valuable, and you three guys have all been terrific in spending time and effort explaining stuff.

 

[Sputnikv8]

Japanese government has announced they are evacuating the plant. More to follow.

Hmmm... it either means things are completely under control and the team needs rest. Or, things are so bad, they won't expose people to it. Wow, how were the officials able to say that and not "why". Unreal.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Japanese government has announced they are evacuating the plant. More to follow.translator said there was a rapid increase in radiation levels and all 50 workershave been evacuated. Unfortunately she blew the exact radiation measurement, so it is hard to know how high.Without workers there to keep the reactors cool, containment vessel breaches are likely inevitable and the last line of defense is - well the last line of defense.

Is it ok for Dodd's to start pulling his hair out now?

 

[dickey moe]

Bueno has done a good job presenting info here. He has not claimed to be an expert, and has self-taught himself a lot of stuff over the last couple of days, not sure what is wrong with that. If people have more complete information no reason not to add to or correct his comments...I can't keep up with the whole thing, just no time. I did read that US Operator Q&A message board thing, that was a good read. What really sucks is the 50 guys who are now 'going down with the ship'. These guys are all shortening their lives for certain, by what extent who can tell, but just imagine that:1) Huge earthquake / tsunami, you are scrambling to determine the whereabouts / safety of your family2) Except that the #### is hitting the fan at work, and your boss makes it clear you are critical to saving the nuclear plant3) You learn that your family (if they are ok) now has to evacuate, leave everything behind (including you)4) After a few days of little to no sleep it becomes clear / you are told that there will be no relief, you are expected to remain behind until this thing is somewhat under control5) And radiation levels are long past safe.

Yes, these guys are beyond heroic.

 

[bueno]

Japanese government has announced they are evacuating the plant. More to follow.translator said there was a rapid increase in radiation levels and all 50 workershave been evacuated. Unfortunately she blew the exact radiation measurement, so it is hard to know how high.Without workers there to keep the reactors cool, containment vessel breaches are likely inevitable and the last line of defense is - well the last line of defense.

Is it ok for Dodd's to start pulling his hair out now?

Does he have any left?

 

[KCC]

CNN: Workers at Japan's damaged nuclear power plant have suspended operations and evacuated, chief Cabinet secretary says.

Anderson Cooper talking about this now. CNN obviously saying this is really bad. Hard to know what's going on for sure.

This is the second worst news we could be hearing. It means the probability of any human oversight of the facility having any potential benefits is zero. The worst news we could be hearing could very well follow at any time. My best thoughts and hopes are with the people over there.

 

[The Z Machine]

Evacuation is not a good sign.

This thing is far from over. A very sad day for fission technology the world over.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Japanese government has announced they are evacuating the plant. More to follow.translator said there was a rapid increase in radiation levels and all 50 workershave been evacuated. Unfortunately she blew the exact radiation measurement, so it is hard to know how high.Without workers there to keep the reactors cool, containment vessel breaches are likely inevitable and the last line of defense is - well the last line of defense.

Is it ok for Dodd's to start pulling his hair out now?

Does he have any left?

I am sure he has some growing in his ears. I hate that part of getting older. Damn ear hair.

 

[PIK95]

If Japan has to entomb the thing, it's a big blow to nuclear power IMO.

This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.

Same reasoning some people use to never board an airplane.

Ditto hookers from Hunter's Point.

 

[PIK95]

Bueno - Are you serious? What info don't you understand? the 400mSV is not a problem? These guys are directly in this to fight this battle. TEPCO sent everyone home except these 50 people. Do you really think there is a lack of work to do that only these 50 people are needed? They are the sacrificed to try and save the rest in Japan.

Do you really think these people will not have serious health problems (or death) going forward?

I get it you think I am wearing a tin hat. But some of you people are in serious denial. There has been a breach (or multiple breaches). The radiation levels are extremely elevated at the facilities (hence the widening of the perimeter, sending people home, change in tone from Japan's officials, advising people to remain indoors at all costs, etc).

David....Bueno has been 100% correct in his posts, and seems more familiar with commercial plant design than I am (I was Navy). You are wearing the foil hat.Nuclear Power facilities have ALWAYS operated under a cloud of suspicion and a litany of over-bearing safety precautions. The public has remained largely ignorant both of Nuclear power and of what radiation is, how it works, and what it can do. People have ALWAYS over-reacted to anything "Nuclear".

These problems are serious, but this is not now, nor will it ever progress to anything remotely close to Chernobyl. The overhwhelming majority of the precautions taken by the Japanese gov't are just that...precautions. If someone's lifetime cancer risk could have quantifiably been raised by even 1/2 of 1%, and they DIDN'T take these precautions, they'd be eviscerated later.

Radiation levels 20 feet outside of an operating power plant are NORMAL...IE: No differant from anywhere else. A "significant rise" to even 10X normal would not pose a risk. 100X normal would remain a manageable risk.

TAKE OFF THE HAT!

 

[[icon]]

CNN confirming the workers were indeed pulled. This just got reallllly ugly...

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

CNN: Workers at Japan's damaged nuclear power plant have suspended operations and evacuated, chief Cabinet secretary says.

Anderson Cooper talking about this now. CNN obviously saying this is really bad. Hard to know what's going on for sure.

This is the second worst news we could be hearing. It means the probability of any human oversight of the facility having any potential benefits is zero. The worst news we could be hearing could very well follow at any time. My best thoughts and hopes are with the people over there.

HAM SELL US YOUR POTASSIUM IODIDE

 

[The Z Machine]

CNN confirming the workers were indeed pulled. This just got reallllly ugly...

Obviously this was due to a spike in radiation at the site.Let's hope it falls and was a singular event. Those guys need to get back in there so they can "feed n' bleed" until the cores are cool.Not to mention putting out fires at the retention ponds.

 

[bigbottom]

As an aside, Anderson Cooper is not nearly impressive live on the streets as he is in the studio with a teleprompter. Not particularly well spoken and always stuttering and stammering.

But he looks REALLY good in a tight shirt.

 

[[icon]]

CNN confirming the workers were indeed pulled. This just got reallllly ugly...

Obviously this was due to a spike in radiation at the site.Let's hope it falls and was a singular event. Those guys need to get back in there so they can "feed n' bleed" until the cores are cool.Not to mention putting out fires at the retention ponds.

What are your thoughts if they can't go back in?

 

[The Z Machine]

CNN confirming the workers were indeed pulled. This just got reallllly ugly...

Obviously this was due to a spike in radiation at the site.Let's hope it falls and was a singular event. Those guys need to get back in there so they can "feed n' bleed" until the cores are cool.Not to mention putting out fires at the retention ponds.

What are your thoughts if they can't go back in?

Start sending best wishes and/or prayers toward that area. They're gonna need it.

 

[Rovers]

I am not defending my comment. I am waiting to hear his reasoning. There are no procedures for flooding reactors with seawater in Reactor Plant Systems school.

There are in the NAVY.

No, they are not.

LMAO You gonna tell me about what we discussed and talked about in NPS? I was an INSTRUCTOR at NPTU Ballston Spa. Machinsts Mate First Class/Leading Engineering Laboratory Technician. I handled chemistry and RADIOLOGICAL CONTROLS. I was also certified to supervise relatively high level radiological work.My expertise then, is in smaller boiling water reactors, but it is very real. Seawater is a viable, and discussed, last resort source for cooling water. I would expect any civilian plant close to an ocean would have a (deep in the books) emergency procedure for implementing its use as a last resort.

Oh, I see. I used to order you squids around on test procedures in the shipyard. I imagine if you wanted to scuttle a boat, you could discuss that, but that is almost unfathomable. Not ever discussed in any procedures I did.

If you were ordering "squids" around, this country is in deep trouble. The sea water option has been around since day 1, and you never heard of it? Just stop.

 

[bueno]

CNN confirming the workers were indeed pulled. This just got reallllly ugly...

Obviously this was due to a spike in radiation at the site.Let's hope it falls and was a singular event. Those guys need to get back in there so they can "feed n' bleed" until the cores are cool.Not to mention putting out fires at the retention ponds.

What are your thoughts if they can't go back in?

Likely the heat will melt through the pressure vessel, the fuel will fall to the floor of the third containment structure where the thick concrete floor will stop it from interacting with the water table. (That would be bad.) Radiation levels will increase at the plant, but unless there is interaction with the water table, there should be little danger of radioactive particle dispersal.

 

[Saints-Man]

I'm done for tonight. Some of y'all might wanna swing a graphite golf club to go with the foil hats.

Bigtime thanks to you, and to Bueno, and even to Wilked (though he thinks I'm an uncaring *******) for providing the rest of us so much info in this thread. Whether the news is good or bad, it's always better to know, and I've learned a lot about this from reading the three of you. This is one of the reasons the FFA can at times be so valuable, and you three guys have all been terrific in spending time and effort explaining stuff.

Very

 

[PIK95]

CNN: Workers at Japan's damaged nuclear power plant have suspended operations and evacuated, chief Cabinet secretary says.

Anderson Cooper talking about this now. CNN obviously saying this is really bad. Hard to know what's going on for sure.

This is the second worst news we could be hearing. It means the probability of any human oversight of the facility having any potential benefits is zero. The worst news we could be hearing could very well follow at any time. My best thoughts and hopes are with the people over there.

HAM SELL US YOUR POTASSIUM IODIDE

 

[Raiderfan32904]

I am not defending my comment. I am waiting to hear his reasoning. There are no procedures for flooding reactors with seawater in Reactor Plant Systems school.

There are in the NAVY.

No, they are not.

LMAO You gonna tell me about what we discussed and talked about in NPS? I was an INSTRUCTOR at NPTU Ballston Spa. Machinsts Mate First Class/Leading Engineering Laboratory Technician. I handled chemistry and RADIOLOGICAL CONTROLS. I was also certified to supervise relatively high level radiological work.My expertise then, is in smaller boiling water reactors, but it is very real. Seawater is a viable, and discussed, last resort source for cooling water. I would expect any civilian plant close to an ocean would have a (deep in the books) emergency procedure for implementing its use as a last resort.

Oh, I see. I used to order you squids around on test procedures in the shipyard. I imagine if you wanted to scuttle a boat, you could discuss that, but that is almost unfathomable. Not ever discussed in any procedures I did.

If you were ordering "squids" around, this country is in deep trouble. The sea water option has been around since day 1, and you never heard of it? Just stop.

Maybe so, has it ever been performed? Nah.I am bored with this whole "I'm an ex-navy nuc b.s. so friggin what. So was I about 17 years ago. Its old stuff to me. Qualified on bothe S6G and S5W plants and even worked on the last remaining diesel boat, the triple nickel. That and two bits still wont buy a cup of joe.

 

[Otis]

Can't they just pour cement over the entire site? Let's end this science experiment already.

 

[Blue-Kun]

Since there seems to be confusion and honestly there's been tons about this entire situation, here's a quick update.

Workers were evacuated, but it was due to incorrect measurements being released, all the workers are back at the plant now. What happened was incorrect measurements at the gate forced an evacuation and then they were moved back in once it was felt safe to do so. A lot of Western media sites are anywhere from 2-6 hours behind on what's actually going on and your best bet for up-to-date info are from the live Japanese broadcasts being translated.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Can't they just pour cement over the entire site? Let's end this science experiment already.

bueno already answered this. Too hot to for the cement to cure.

 

[David Dodds]

Bueno has done a good job presenting info here. He has not claimed to be an expert, and has self-taught himself a lot of stuff over the last couple of days, not sure what is wrong with that. If people have more complete information no reason not to add to or correct his comments...I can't keep up with the whole thing, just no time. I did read that US Operator Q&A message board thing, that was a good read. What really sucks is the 50 guys who are now 'going down with the ship'. These guys are all shortening their lives for certain, by what extent who can tell, but just imagine that:1) Huge earthquake / tsunami, you are scrambling to determine the whereabouts / safety of your family2) Except that the #### is hitting the fan at work, and your boss makes it clear you are critical to saving the nuclear plant3) You learn that your family (if they are ok) now has to evacuate, leave everything behind (including you)4) After a few days of little to no sleep it becomes clear / you are told that there will be no relief, you are expected to remain behind until this thing is somewhat under control5) And radiation levels are long past safe.

Yes, these guys are beyond heroic.

Not according to Bueno. Only 50 people were needed. They sent everyone else home because there was no more work to do.

 

[bueno]

I am not defending my comment. I am waiting to hear his reasoning. There are no procedures for flooding reactors with seawater in Reactor Plant Systems school.

There are in the NAVY.

No, they are not.

LMAO You gonna tell me about what we discussed and talked about in NPS? I was an INSTRUCTOR at NPTU Ballston Spa. Machinsts Mate First Class/Leading Engineering Laboratory Technician. I handled chemistry and RADIOLOGICAL CONTROLS. I was also certified to supervise relatively high level radiological work.My expertise then, is in smaller boiling water reactors, but it is very real. Seawater is a viable, and discussed, last resort source for cooling water. I would expect any civilian plant close to an ocean would have a (deep in the books) emergency procedure for implementing its use as a last resort.

Oh, I see. I used to order you squids around on test procedures in the shipyard. I imagine if you wanted to scuttle a boat, you could discuss that, but that is almost unfathomable. Not ever discussed in any procedures I did.

If you were ordering "squids" around, this country is in deep trouble. The sea water option has been around since day 1, and you never heard of it? Just stop.

Maybe so, has it ever been performed? Nah.I am bored with this whole "I'm an ex-navy nuc b.s. so friggin what. So was I about 17 years ago. Its old stuff to me. Qualified on bothe S6G and S5W plants and even worked on the last remaining diesel boat, the triple nickel. That and two bits still wont buy a cup of joe.

So your nuclear experience is about as dated as mine. Hint: Bing is a better search engine than Google.

 

[The Z Machine]

That's great news Blue-kun.

Do you have a link to these translated broadcasts?

 

[David Dodds]

Can't they just pour cement over the entire site? Let's end this science experiment already.

Why do anything at all? This situation is clearly getting better by the nice ocean breeze alone.

 

[bueno]

Bueno has done a good job presenting info here. He has not claimed to be an expert, and has self-taught himself a lot of stuff over the last couple of days, not sure what is wrong with that. If people have more complete information no reason not to add to or correct his comments...I can't keep up with the whole thing, just no time. I did read that US Operator Q&A message board thing, that was a good read. What really sucks is the 50 guys who are now 'going down with the ship'. These guys are all shortening their lives for certain, by what extent who can tell, but just imagine that:1) Huge earthquake / tsunami, you are scrambling to determine the whereabouts / safety of your family2) Except that the #### is hitting the fan at work, and your boss makes it clear you are critical to saving the nuclear plant3) You learn that your family (if they are ok) now has to evacuate, leave everything behind (including you)4) After a few days of little to no sleep it becomes clear / you are told that there will be no relief, you are expected to remain behind until this thing is somewhat under control5) And radiation levels are long past safe.

Yes, these guys are beyond heroic.

Not according to Bueno. Only 50 people were needed. They sent everyone else home because there was no more work to do.

Is your comprehension really that bad or do you enjoy putting words in people's mouth? Because I never thought you were stupid.

 

[[icon]]

What are your thoughts if they can't go back in?

Start sending best wishes and/or prayers toward that area. They're gonna need it.

What are your thoughts if they can't go back in?

Likely the heat will melt through the pressure vessel, the fuel will fall to the floor of the third containment structure where the thick concrete floor will stop it from interacting with the water table. (That would be bad.) Radiation levels will increase at the plant, but unless there is interaction with the water table, there should be little danger of radioactive particle dispersal.

Interesting dissent here. Glad to hear the workers are back in (If that's the case).

 

[bueno]

Bueno has done a good job presenting info here. He has not claimed to be an expert, and has self-taught himself a lot of stuff over the last couple of days, not sure what is wrong with that. If people have more complete information no reason not to add to or correct his comments...I can't keep up with the whole thing, just no time. I did read that US Operator Q&A message board thing, that was a good read. What really sucks is the 50 guys who are now 'going down with the ship'. These guys are all shortening their lives for certain, by what extent who can tell, but just imagine that:1) Huge earthquake / tsunami, you are scrambling to determine the whereabouts / safety of your family2) Except that the #### is hitting the fan at work, and your boss makes it clear you are critical to saving the nuclear plant3) You learn that your family (if they are ok) now has to evacuate, leave everything behind (including you)4) After a few days of little to no sleep it becomes clear / you are told that there will be no relief, you are expected to remain behind until this thing is somewhat under control5) And radiation levels are long past safe.

Yes, these guys are beyond heroic.

Not according to Bueno. Only 50 people were needed. They sent everyone else home because there was no more work to do.

Is your comprehension really that bad or do you enjoy putting words in people's mouth? Because I never thought you were stupid. They sent home non-essential personnel.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

I am not defending my comment. I am waiting to hear his reasoning. There are no procedures for flooding reactors with seawater in Reactor Plant Systems school.

There are in the NAVY.

No, they are not.

LMAO You gonna tell me about what we discussed and talked about in NPS? I was an INSTRUCTOR at NPTU Ballston Spa. Machinsts Mate First Class/Leading Engineering Laboratory Technician. I handled chemistry and RADIOLOGICAL CONTROLS. I was also certified to supervise relatively high level radiological work.My expertise then, is in smaller boiling water reactors, but it is very real. Seawater is a viable, and discussed, last resort source for cooling water. I would expect any civilian plant close to an ocean would have a (deep in the books) emergency procedure for implementing its use as a last resort.

Oh, I see. I used to order you squids around on test procedures in the shipyard. I imagine if you wanted to scuttle a boat, you could discuss that, but that is almost unfathomable. Not ever discussed in any procedures I did.

If you were ordering "squids" around, this country is in deep trouble. The sea water option has been around since day 1, and you never heard of it? Just stop.

Maybe so, has it ever been performed? Nah.I am bored with this whole "I'm an ex-navy nuc b.s. so friggin what. So was I about 17 years ago. Its old stuff to me. Qualified on bothe S6G and S5W plants and even worked on the last remaining diesel boat, the triple nickel. That and two bits still wont buy a cup of joe.

So your nuclear experience is about as dated as mine. Hint: Bing is a better search engine than Google.

thanks for the tip!

 

[Otis]

Can't they just pour cement over the entire site? Let's end this science experiment already.

Why do anything at all? This situation is clearly getting better by the nice ocean breeze alone.

In response to your direct question I posted a couple serious answers and counter-questions and you give me stuff like this in response. Hard to work with here, GB.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

When do we start apologizing to Dodds?

 

[Blue-Kun]

That's great news Blue-kun.Do you have a link to these translated broadcasts?

Unfortunately the livestream I was watching went out a few hours ago. Check around Ustream and sometimes you'll find a stream w/ a translator. For lack of that, this site has been relatively up-to-date compared to most places I've seen. http://www.thetokyopost.com/news-opinion/live-blog-general-updates-about-the-situation-in-japan/Note that it's mostly a collection of journalist posts and headlines, but the ones actually in Japan tend to be ahead of the curve. I've been seeing 'headline' information there long before it actually makes it to CNN & co.In an odd bit, SomethingAwful actually has what (to me anwyay) looks like a very good FAQ / write-up of what's happening at Fukushima. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3396817

 

[bueno]

What are your thoughts if they can't go back in?

Start sending best wishes and/or prayers toward that area. They're gonna need it.

What are your thoughts if they can't go back in?

Likely the heat will melt through the pressure vessel, the fuel will fall to the floor of the third containment structure where the thick concrete floor will stop it from interacting with the water table. (That would be bad.) Radiation levels will increase at the plant, but unless there is interaction with the water table, there should be little danger of radioactive particle dispersal.

Interesting dissent here. Glad to hear the workers are back in (If that's the case).

I am super relieved that it was a false reading. Hopefully they can continue pumping water into those reactors.

 

[Otis]

I don't get everyone going bananas here about the 50 person thing. It's all automated -- you don't need that many people there, it's not like they are manually digging holes to bury the stuff. Why the hell risk more people than you need to?

 

[bentley]

As an aside, Anderson Cooper is not nearly impressive live on the streets as he is in the studio with a teleprompter. Not particularly well spoken and always stuttering and stammering.

But he looks REALLY good in a tight shirt.

That's what I was thinking. I lost myself in his eyes. Not sure what he said.

 

[3C's]

Can't they just pour cement over the entire site? Let's end this science experiment already.

Why do anything at all? This situation is clearly getting better by the nice ocean breeze alone.

It's almost like you (and Fennis) are hoping for bad news just so you'll be right. "I told you so!!"

 

[Otis]

Can't they just pour cement over the entire site? Let's end this science experiment already.

Why do anything at all? This situation is clearly getting better by the nice ocean breeze alone.

It's almost like you (and Fennis) are hoping for bad news just so you'll be right. "I told you so!!"

This. Feels so much like a ham thread.

 

[rolyaTy]

I don't get everyone going bananas here about the 50 person thing. It's all automated -- you don't need that many people there, it's not like they are manually digging holes to bury the stuff. Why the hell risk more people than you need to?

Seriously...this whole problem would've been averted had people just trusted that the automated processes were working. Send all the employees home. It's all good.

 

[David Dodds]

People here are claiming that the readings are good 20 feet from the plant. Can you guys provide a link for that?

I have read a lot on this and I have not seen a single article confirming this "fact" at all.

Were these the same readings that were so good that they told all of the workers to leave because they were too high? Those facts seem to be in dispute with one another.

Thanks in advance.

So far in this thread I have learned than hydrogen explosions at nuclear reactors are good news, sea water flushes are part of the operating manual, when you send 600 people home and keep just 50 it's because there is no work to do, cooling is mandatory, but if you forget to do it, nothing really happens anyway.

All is good. Wiffle ball tournament to start next week on the site.

 

[The Z Machine]

I don't get everyone going bananas here about the 50 person thing. It's all automated -- you don't need that many people there, it's not like they are manually digging holes to bury the stuff. Why the hell risk more people than you need to?

You're crazy if you think that a massive earthquake + giant tsunami left all the control systems and infrastructure intact.I'm sure they're doing some patchwork #### in there right now.

 

[David Dodds]

I don't get everyone going bananas here about the 50 person thing. It's all automated -- you don't need that many people there, it's not like they are manually digging holes to bury the stuff. Why the hell risk more people than you need to?

Adding sea water is automated (I did not even know this was part of the plan since doing this ruins the reactor)? Putting out fires is automated? I must have missed that news item as well.