Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (1 Viewer)

[bueno]

Can some of you nuclear reactor experts help answer the question I posted in the earthquake thread a few days ago? Thanks.

Link

Even if they had power, they couldn't turn it back on. Damage had been done and would have to be repaired first.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Can some of you nuclear reactor experts help answer the question I posted in the earthquake thread a few days ago? Thanks.

Link

Even if they had power, they couldn't turn it back on. Damage had been done and would have to be repaired first.

Thanks. I found confirmation on this Wiki page which has an excellent record of the entire event and status of all the reactors. LinkAn earthquake categorised as 9.0 MW on the moment magnitude scale occurred on 11 March 2011, at 14:46 Japan Standard Time (JST) off the northeast coast of Japan. On that day, reactor units 1, 2, and 3 were operating, but units 4, 5, and 6 had already been shut down for periodic inspection. When the earthquake was detected, units 1, 2 and 3 underwent an automatic shutdown (called scram).

After the reactors shut down, electricity generation stopped. Normally the plant could use the external electrical supply to power cooling and control systems, but the earthquake had caused major damage to the power grid. Emergency diesel generators started correctly but stopped abruptly at 15:41, ending all AC power supply to the reactors. The plant was protected by a sea wall, but tsunami water which followed after the earthquake topped this sea wall, flooding the low lying generator building. Article 10 of the Japanese law on Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness, heightened alert condition requires authorities to be informed of such an incident: TEPCO did so immediately and also issued a press release declaring a "First Level Emergency".

After the failure of the diesels, emergency power for control systems was supplied by batteries that would last about eight hours. Batteries from other nuclear plants were sent to the site and mobile generators arrived within 13 hours, but work to connect portable generating equipment to power water pumps was still continuing as of 15:04 on 12 March. Generators would normally be connected through switching equipment in a basement area of the buildings, but this basement area had been flooded by the tsunami.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

There are a lot of pro nuclear experts in here and I would normally agree with them. The party line is nuclear is far more environmentally friendly and carbon nuetral than coal, gas, oil, etc. I understand the reasoning. But my acceptance of it was based on the assumption that first world nations would take extensive measures for safety, and there would be international oversight, and timely integrated responses for a nuclear accident such as this. That is an assumption I now fail to take for granted anymore.

Japan, who most everyone has a great deal of respect for, who seem like the perfect nation to govern over a technology like this has proven to be not a first world country, but no more or less volatile than Libya and other nations we fear. They have purposely withheld information that was key to resolving this crisis, and precious time and resources have been wasted. The Government of Japan defers to a private company that does not have a clue how to handle this crisis, and the international community defers to the judgment of Japan. The government has no credibility to make decisions when they offer no oversight of TEPCO. International support is stonewalled behind a firewall of Japanese Gov't propoganda. The latest non-sustainable solution of spraying water over the reactors is a sad, desperate act of a response team that is overwhelmed and need the experts to take over.

 

[David Dodds]

Some good news:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/us-japan-quake-level-idUSTRE72F9K720110316

Radiation level falls at Japan Fukushima plant

 

[timschochet]

There are a lot of pro nuclear experts in here and I would normally agree with them. The party line is nuclear is far more environmentally friendly and carbon nuetral than coal, gas, oil, etc. I understand the reasoning. But my acceptance of it was based on the assumption that first world nations would take extensive measures for safety, and there would be international oversight, and timely integrated responses for a nuclear accident such as this. That is an assumption I now fail to take for granted anymore.

Japan, who most everyone has a great deal of respect for, who seem like the perfect nation to govern over a technology like this has proven to be not a first world country, but no more or less volatile than Libya and other nations we fear. They have purposely withheld information that was key to resolving this crisis, and precious time and resources have been wasted. The Government of Japan defers to a private company that does not have a clue how to handle this crisis, and the international community defers to the judgment of Japan. The government has no credibility to make decisions when they offer no oversight of TEPCO. International support is stonewalled behind a firewall of Japanese Gov't propoganda. The latest non-sustainable solution of spraying water over the reactors is a sad, desperate act of a response team that is overwhelmed and need the experts to take over.

I really don't believe that you have enough information to make these judgments. I certainly don't. A lot of what you're asserting here is based on conjecture.

 

[David Dodds]

The temperature of Reactor 5 is now a growing cause for concern, a Japanese official reports. "The level of water in the reactor is lowering and the pressure is rising," he says. - BBC

 

[geoff8695]

We don't know if these guys are really going to lose their lives. Hopefully, it's an overstated risk, and they won't.

But if they do lose their lives over this, it should be noted that this is an aspect of the Japanese culture that goes back over a thousand years: the willingness of individuals to sacrifice their lives for what they believe is a greater good, or simply because that is their giri- duty and fate. This is embedded deep into Shinto beliefs, as exemplified by the Samurai willing to slit their bellies, and the Kamikaze pilots who killed themselves in order to damage the United States Navy.

There are certainly examples of bravery and sacrifice in other cultures, including ours. But it doesn't approach the Japanese, IMO.

The Japanese Shinto beliefs and sense of duty certainly are exemplified in a military sense, and the fact that Japanese culture doesn't lend itself to the kinds of poor behavior (looting/rioting) exhibited in other cultures is commendable. However, the human spirit and willingness to do whatever is necessary including making the greatest self sacrifice is not a Japanese monopoly by any means. You need look no further than our own brave WWII veterans who shared no less of a sense of duty and self sacrifice with a humbleness after they returned home from hell on earth, or to the many brave Russians who risked and in many cases sacrificed their own lives to contain the Chernobyl disaster, or more recently America's current servicemen in Iraq and Iran or the police/firefighters on 911 to see that same noble spirit.Not trying to strike up an argument here, just saying that while I admire and am praying for those in Japan, I don't want to sell short the heroic bravery and self-sacrifice that is one of the more beautiful capacities of humanity and counterbalances some of the ugly, selfish, petty, and otherwise despicable darker side that is otherwise known to plague our species.

 

[bueno]

The temperature of Reactor 5 is now a growing cause for concern, a Japanese official reports. "The level of water in the reactor is lowering and the pressure is rising," he says. - BBC

All of the reactors will have this problem until power is restored and they can start pumping the required amount of water again.

 

[timschochet]

We don't know if these guys are really going to lose their lives. Hopefully, it's an overstated risk, and they won't.

But if they do lose their lives over this, it should be noted that this is an aspect of the Japanese culture that goes back over a thousand years: the willingness of individuals to sacrifice their lives for what they believe is a greater good, or simply because that is their giri- duty and fate. This is embedded deep into Shinto beliefs, as exemplified by the Samurai willing to slit their bellies, and the Kamikaze pilots who killed themselves in order to damage the United States Navy.

There are certainly examples of bravery and sacrifice in other cultures, including ours. But it doesn't approach the Japanese, IMO.

The Japanese Shinto beliefs and sense of duty certainly are exemplified in a military sense, and the fact that Japanese culture doesn't lend itself to the kinds of poor behavior (looting/rioting) exhibited in other cultures is commendable. However, the human spirit and willingness to do whatever is necessary including making the greatest self sacrifice is not a Japanese monopoly by any means. You need look no further than our own brave WWII veterans who shared no less of a sense of duty and self sacrifice with a humbleness after they returned home from hell on earth, or to the many brave Russians who risked and in many cases sacrificed their own lives to contain the Chernobyl disaster, or more recently America's current servicemen in Iraq and Iran or the police/firefighters on 911 to see that same noble spirit.Not trying to strike up an argument here, just saying that while I admire and am praying for those in Japan, I don't want to sell short the heroic bravery and self-sacrifice that is one of the more beautiful capacities of humanity and counterbalances some of the ugly, selfish, petty, and otherwise despicable darker side that is otherwise known to plague our species.

Agreed.

 

[David Dodds]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?

Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20110316/NEWS/303160141/Japanese-nuclear-workers-like-suicide-fighters-war-

FUKUSHIMA, Japan — The 180 emergency workers at Japan's crippled Fukushima Dai-ichi complex are emerging as public heroes in the wake of a disaster spawned by an earthquake and a tsunami.

Facing the possibility of fire, explosions and radiation, the technicians were ordered back to work late Wednesday after a surge of radiation forced them to leave their posts for hours.

“I don't know any other way to say it, but this is like suicide fighters in a war,” said Keiichi Nakagawa, associate professor of the Department of Radiology at the University of Tokyo Hospital.

Small teams of the still-anonymous emergency workers rush in and out for 10 to 15 minutes at a time to pump sea water into the plant's overheated reactors, monitor them and clear debris from explosions. Any longer would make their exposure to radioactivity too great.

Even at normal times, workers wear coveralls, full-face masks with filters, helmets and double-layer gloves when they enter areas with a possibility of radiation exposure. Some of them carry oxygen tanks so they don't have to inhale any radioactive particles into their lungs.

The highest radiation reading among various locations that had to be accessed by the workers hit 600 millisieverts, equal to several years of daily exposure limit, according to statistics released by Tokyo Electric Power Co.

Many countries have an emergency limit of 100 millisieverts a year. Yet on Wednesday, Japan's Ministry of Health Labor and Welfare raised the maximum legal exposure for nuclear workers to 250 millisieverts. It described the move as “unavoidable due to the circumstances.”

The workers' challenges this week have included struggling for hours to open a pressure-release valve and allow water to enter the reactors. When a worker left the scene for a short period, the water flow ceased and fuel for pumps bringing up the water ran out.

A building housing a spent fuel storage pool exploded at one point, making two huge holes on the upper side of the building.

Wow! These guys are heroic! Thoughts and prayers to them and their families. I hope none of these guys or their families have to ever pay taxes again.

The true definition.

 

[bueno]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Until the rods cool down, yep.

 

[David Dodds]

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/78796.html

"...radiation level was 4.13 millisievert per hour at an altitude of 1,000 feet. The level comes to 87.7 millisievert at 300 feet, the minister also said."

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Are we talking about the spent fuel pools or water in the reactor?

 

[David Dodds]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Until the rods cool down, yep.

This will work or it will be a ton of steam only for an awful long time?

 

[David Dodds]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Are we talking about the spent fuel pools or water in the reactor?

I think they are trying to get the water into the spent fuel pools. I have heard the temperature is like 1000 degrees Celcius (this could be way wrong - I have no idea). I just expect this to vaporize the water. Enough of that I suppose you can cool things slightly, but I suspect this isn't going to work as planned.

 

[Fennis]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42119298/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

The United States on Wednesday authorized the first evacuations of Americans out of Japan, taking a tougher stand on the deepening nuclear crisis and warning U.S. citizens to defer all non-essential travel to any part of the country as unpredictable weather and wind conditions risked spreading radioactive contamination.

 

[bueno]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Are we talking about the spent fuel pools or water in the reactor?

I think they are trying to get the water into the spent fuel pools. I have heard the temperature is like 1000 degrees Celcius (this could be way wrong - I have no idea). I just expect this to vaporize the water. Enough of that I suppose you can cool things slightly, but I suspect this isn't going to work as planned.

If the rods are above 100 degrees. there will be evaporation. When operating properly, water evaporates to keep the rods cool and more has to be added. So even under normal conditions, there is evaporation. But under normal conditions the fuel rod casing isn't oxidized or cracked either.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Are we talking about the spent fuel pools or water in the reactor?

I think they are trying to get the water into the spent fuel pools. I have heard the temperature is like 1000 degrees Celcius (this could be way wrong - I have no idea). I just expect this to vaporize the water. Enough of that I suppose you can cool things slightly, but I suspect this isn't going to work as planned.

Spent fuel pools use heat exchangers to keep water temperatures down. Obviously those have failed but there's a lot unknown here. How long had the rods been in the pool? Rod cooling is not linear, they cool down rapidly once fission is halted. A week is a lot different than a year. Also, what was the quality of the cladding? I read that U.S. and Canada require sufficient cladding to prevent combustion in the absence of coolant. But a prolonged absence? I don't know. I would like to think that Japanese regulations are at least as stringent as U.S.Maybe there's reason to be optimistic but a fire would be a disaster.

 

[DevilsTrifecta]

OK I know a little bit about this crap....this is bad....so bad I bought Iodine pills and duct tape and plastic. Does anyone know what Russia did as a last resort for Cherbobyl? They dumped Boron and water from helicopters. This is bad. I still think nothing will happen but I am being prepared. If the spent fuel pool boiled dry like I have heard....holy crap.....that will be worse than Chernobyl.

 

[Blue-Kun]

JSDF choppers dumped water on the #3 and 4 buildings, water cannon trucks are at the plant.

Spent fuel pool water temp in Reactors #5 and 6 has risen, but only by 4 degrees C in one and by about 20C in the other. Those buildings are totally intact, so once power is restored it should become a total non-issue, and even now it ranks very low on the priority list.

Steam/smoke has stopped rising from #3 (at least to the extent it was previously) but there has been no new info about water levels.

There are 180 people at the site now working on reactor control and debris removal.

From everything that has been discussed in press conferences, the issue right now is with the spent fuel pools, not the reactors themselves.

A JSDF chopper crew visually checked the water level in the #4 spent fuel pool and said the level was very high. Here's hoping this is the case.

 

[Short Corner]

Japan, who most everyone has a great deal of respect for, who seem like the perfect nation to govern over a technology like this has proven to be not a first world country, but no more or less volatile than Libya and other nations we fear. They have purposely withheld information that was key to resolving this crisis, and precious time and resources have been wasted. The Government of Japan defers to a private company that does not have a clue how to handle this crisis, and the international community defers to the judgment of Japan. The government has no credibility to make decisions when they offer no oversight of TEPCO. International support is stonewalled behind a firewall of Japanese Gov't propoganda. The latest non-sustainable solution of spraying water over the reactors is a sad, desperate act of a response team that is overwhelmed and need the experts to take over.

 

[Short Corner]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Until the rods cool down, yep.

This will work or it will be a ton of steam only for an awful long time?

You really dont understand thermodynamics do you?

 

[Raiderfan32904]

There are a lot of pro nuclear experts in here and I would normally agree with them. The party line is nuclear is far more environmentally friendly and carbon nuetral than coal, gas, oil, etc. I understand the reasoning. But my acceptance of it was based on the assumption that first world nations would take extensive measures for safety, and there would be international oversight, and timely integrated responses for a nuclear accident such as this. That is an assumption I now fail to take for granted anymore.

Japan, who most everyone has a great deal of respect for, who seem like the perfect nation to govern over a technology like this has proven to be not a first world country, but no more or less volatile than Libya and other nations we fear. They have purposely withheld information that was key to resolving this crisis, and precious time and resources have been wasted. The Government of Japan defers to a private company that does not have a clue how to handle this crisis, and the international community defers to the judgment of Japan. The government has no credibility to make decisions when they offer no oversight of TEPCO. International support is stonewalled behind a firewall of Japanese Gov't propoganda. The latest non-sustainable solution of spraying water over the reactors is a sad, desperate act of a response team that is overwhelmed and need the experts to take over.

I really don't believe that you have enough information to make these judgments. I certainly don't. A lot of what you're asserting here is based on conjecture.

In the face of a vacuum of information & video of misty water droplets from helicopters over potentially exposed fuel rods that could catch fire, and information ministers that keep dodging the important questions, you don't think there is room for conjecture? Should I qualify my opinion?

 

[Dr. Awesome]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Until the rods cool down, yep.

This will work or it will be a ton of steam only for an awful long time?

You really dont understand thermodynamics do you?

Dodds has eased off his crazy a bit and asked a simple question. Answer it or don't.

 

[Short Corner]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Until the rods cool down, yep.

This will work or it will be a ton of steam only for an awful long time?

You really dont understand thermodynamics do you?

Dodds has eased off his crazy a bit and asked a simple question. Answer it or don't.

I thought it was intuitively obvious for anyone with any physics (or even basic auto shop) background.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Can some of you nuclear reactor experts help answer the question I posted in the earthquake thread a few days ago? Thanks.

Link

Even if they had power, they couldn't turn it back on. Damage had been done and would have to be repaired first.

It been several days already, I wish they tell us more about the new power line they are running to the Fukushima plant.

 

[Sheriff66]

20 people have possible radiation sickness

[6:33 a.m. ET Thursday, 7:33 p.m. Thursday in Tokyo] At least 20 people have fallen ill due to possible radiation contamination - in addition to 19 injured and two missing at the damaged Fukushima Daiichi plant, the International Atomic Energy Agency reported.

 

[Topes]

I can't believe the fear-mongering that goes on in the US media.

Did CNN really interview Hiroshima survivors and ask them about radiation exposure?

"The only rule that ever made sense to me I learned from a history, not an economics, professor at Wharton. "Fear," he used to say, "fear is the most valuable commodity in the universe." That blew me away. "Turn on the TV," he'd say. "What are you seeing? People selling their products? No. People selling the fear of you having to live without their products." #######' A, was he right. Fear of aging, fear of loneliness, fear of poverty, fear of failure. Fear is the most basic emotion we have. Fear is primal. Fear sells."

"If your Soviet neighbor is trying to set fire to your house, you can't be worrying about the Arab down the block. If suddenly it's the Arab in your backyard , you can't be worrying about the People's Republic of China and if one day the ChiComs show up at your front door with an eviction notice in one hand and a Molotov cocktail in the other, then the last thing you're going do is look over his shoulder for a walking corpse."

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Can some of you nuclear reactor experts help answer the question I posted in the earthquake thread a few days ago? Thanks.

Link

Even if they had power, they couldn't turn it back on. Damage had been done and would have to be repaired first.

It been several days already, I wish they tell us more about the new power line they are running to the Fukushima plant.

Even if they restore an electrical feed, the post hydrogen explosion condition/status of the pumping and controls is highly in doubt. This equipment is not easily or quickly swapped out, and testing and calibration are going to be essential to bring equipment back online.

 

[Topes]

The local news station: Japan moves closer to a total breakdown, but how will this affect sushi prices?

Only in LA. (Unless, of course, you saw this in another market. In which case, I got nuthin'.)

 

[eoMMan]

OK I know a little bit about this crap....this is bad....so bad I bought Iodine pills and duct tape and plastic. Does anyone know what Russia did as a last resort for Cherbobyl? They dumped Boron and water from helicopters. This is bad. I still think nothing will happen but I am being prepared. If the spent fuel pool boiled dry like I have heard....holy crap.....that will be worse than Chernobyl.

Unless you live in Japan, why the hell are you buying iodine pills?

 

[shader]

OK I know a little bit about this crap....this is bad....so bad I bought Iodine pills and duct tape and plastic. Does anyone know what Russia did as a last resort for Cherbobyl? They dumped Boron and water from helicopters. This is bad. I still think nothing will happen but I am being prepared. If the spent fuel pool boiled dry like I have heard....holy crap.....that will be worse than Chernobyl.

Unless you live in Japan, why the hell are you buying iodine pills?

If the rumors of them selling for 200 on ebay are true, we should all be buying them and selling them to panicked suckers on the West coast that read Alex Jones and fear for their lives.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

We don't know if these guys are really going to lose their lives. Hopefully, it's an overstated risk, and they won't.

But if they do lose their lives over this, it should be noted that this is an aspect of the Japanese culture that goes back over a thousand years: the willingness of individuals to sacrifice their lives for what they believe is a greater good, or simply because that is their giri- duty and fate. This is embedded deep into Shinto beliefs, as exemplified by the Samurai willing to slit their bellies, and the Kamikaze pilots who killed themselves in order to damage the United States Navy.

There are certainly examples of bravery and sacrifice in other cultures, including ours. But it doesn't approach the Japanese, IMO.

:facepalm:

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Can some of you nuclear reactor experts help answer the question I posted in the earthquake thread a few days ago? Thanks.

Link

Even if they had power, they couldn't turn it back on. Damage had been done and would have to be repaired first.

It been several days already, I wish they tell us more about the new power line they are running to the Fukushima plant.

Even if they restore an electrical feed, the post hydrogen explosion condition/status of the pumping and controls is highly in doubt. This equipment is not easily or quickly swapped out, and testing and calibration are going to be essential to bring equipment back online.

When did you turn into a glass is half empty kinda guy? I'm sure restoring power will at the very least help them with monitoring the reactors and other they're doing there.

 

[timschochet]

There are a lot of pro nuclear experts in here and I would normally agree with them. The party line is nuclear is far more environmentally friendly and carbon nuetral than coal, gas, oil, etc. I understand the reasoning. But my acceptance of it was based on the assumption that first world nations would take extensive measures for safety, and there would be international oversight, and timely integrated responses for a nuclear accident such as this. That is an assumption I now fail to take for granted anymore.

Japan, who most everyone has a great deal of respect for, who seem like the perfect nation to govern over a technology like this has proven to be not a first world country, but no more or less volatile than Libya and other nations we fear. They have purposely withheld information that was key to resolving this crisis, and precious time and resources have been wasted. The Government of Japan defers to a private company that does not have a clue how to handle this crisis, and the international community defers to the judgment of Japan. The government has no credibility to make decisions when they offer no oversight of TEPCO. International support is stonewalled behind a firewall of Japanese Gov't propoganda. The latest non-sustainable solution of spraying water over the reactors is a sad, desperate act of a response team that is overwhelmed and need the experts to take over.

I really don't believe that you have enough information to make these judgments. I certainly don't. A lot of what you're asserting here is based on conjecture.

In the face of a vacuum of information & video of misty water droplets from helicopters over potentially exposed fuel rods that could catch fire, and information ministers that keep dodging the important questions, you don't think there is room for conjecture? Should I qualify my opinion?

I think the sort of conjecture which ends up comparing Japan to Libya is not really worth repeating. But you're free to do it if you want.

 

[renesauz]

The highest radiation reading among various locations that had to be accessed by the workers hit 600 millisieverts, equal to several years of daily exposure limit, according to statistics released by Tokyo Electric Power Co.

Many countries have an emergency limit of 100 millisieverts a year. Yet on Wednesday, Japan's Ministry of Health Labor and Welfare raised the maximum legal exposure for nuclear workers to 250 millisieverts. It described the move as “unavoidable due to the circumstances.”

Absorbing that kind of dose definately raises the lifetime cancer risk an appreciable amount, but still isn't enough to cause radiation sickness. IE: Isn't immediately deadly.If this were TRULY a major risk to the general public, they wouldn't even be discussing radiation limits....guys would be just doing what had to be done to save lives, just like firement and policemen and others have always done.

SOme of you see this as more proof of the extreme danger. It is in fact proof positive of the OPPOSITE.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

When did you turn into a glass is half empty kinda guy? I'm sure restoring power will at the very least help them with monitoring the reactors and other they're doing there.

I do want to be optimistic. But I have some experience in testing PWR but not BWR reactors. When I look at the difference between the two reactors I do a :facepalmWR reactors are challenging enough, but BWR's offer no clear way to isolate pumps. The fact that there was a hydrogen explosion means you have to assume there is significant damage to the pumping system. At least from what I have read and my limited understanding. I agree that restored electrical is a good start in at least being able to assess the damage and formulate a plan. Sorry for being a nervous nelly.

 

[Sammy3469]

We don't know if these guys are really going to lose their lives. Hopefully, it's an overstated risk, and they won't.

But if they do lose their lives over this, it should be noted that this is an aspect of the Japanese culture that goes back over a thousand years: the willingness of individuals to sacrifice their lives for what they believe is a greater good, or simply because that is their giri- duty and fate. This is embedded deep into Shinto beliefs, as exemplified by the Samurai willing to slit their bellies, and the Kamikaze pilots who killed themselves in order to damage the United States Navy.

There are certainly examples of bravery and sacrifice in other cultures, including ours. But it doesn't approach the Japanese, IMO.

:facepalm:

wow

 

[timschochet]

We don't know if these guys are really going to lose their lives. Hopefully, it's an overstated risk, and they won't.

But if they do lose their lives over this, it should be noted that this is an aspect of the Japanese culture that goes back over a thousand years: the willingness of individuals to sacrifice their lives for what they believe is a greater good, or simply because that is their giri- duty and fate. This is embedded deep into Shinto beliefs, as exemplified by the Samurai willing to slit their bellies, and the Kamikaze pilots who killed themselves in order to damage the United States Navy.

There are certainly examples of bravery and sacrifice in other cultures, including ours. But it doesn't approach the Japanese, IMO.

:facepalm:

wow

Yes? Why is this post so shocking?

 

[renesauz]

There are a lot of pro nuclear experts in here and I would normally agree with them. The party line is nuclear is far more environmentally friendly and carbon nuetral than coal, gas, oil, etc. I understand the reasoning. But my acceptance of it was based on the assumption that first world nations would take extensive measures for safety, and there would be international oversight, and timely integrated responses for a nuclear accident such as this. That is an assumption I now fail to take for granted anymore.Japan, who most everyone has a great deal of respect for, who seem like the perfect nation to govern over a technology like this has proven to be not a first world country, but no more or less volatile than Libya and other nations we fear. They have purposely withheld information that was key to resolving this crisis, and precious time and resources have been wasted. The Government of Japan defers to a private company that does not have a clue how to handle this crisis, and the international community defers to the judgment of Japan. The government has no credibility to make decisions when they offer no oversight of TEPCO. International support is stonewalled behind a firewall of Japanese Gov't propoganda. The latest non-sustainable solution of spraying water over the reactors is a sad, desperate act of a response team that is overwhelmed and need the experts to take over.

Sorry Raider, but this is unfair. The scope of the greater tragedy absolutely must be taken into consideration. Without the tsunami, none of these plants would have been in danger. EVerything worked as it should after the earthquake. Backup #1 was the power grid....failed by earthquake. Backup #3 was the diesel...protected by a sea wall from more minor tsunamis. UNfortunately, this one was from a 9.0 earthquake and was anything but minor. EVen then, enough protection was afforded that most of the plant was spared. Even with the tsunami, it's painfully clear they had emergency backups to that, batteries and such providing temporary relief.Now, guys had to scramble in a worst case scenario, and yet here, five or so days later, in a country whos infrastructure, especially local, has been absolutely DEVASTATED, they have still averted a full meltdown and release of significant long lived radioactive particles to the atmosphere. As has been repeatedly stated...every day dramaticly lowers the chance of this happening.Lessons will be learned from this, and plants will be made even safer, but those guys in Japan are doing a fantastic job given the hellish scenario they've been presented. The truth is they CAN'T talk to the public the way we'd like, because much of the design and operational stuff is sensitive info. While that doesn't preclude a cursory explanation that some people understand, history (and this thread!) has proven you can't make the layman calm down without going into that painful detail you simply don't have the time to do or ability to do because of the sensitive points.

 

[culdeus]

We don't know if these guys are really going to lose their lives. Hopefully, it's an overstated risk, and they won't.

But if they do lose their lives over this, it should be noted that this is an aspect of the Japanese culture that goes back over a thousand years: the willingness of individuals to sacrifice their lives for what they believe is a greater good, or simply because that is their giri- duty and fate. This is embedded deep into Shinto beliefs, as exemplified by the Samurai willing to slit their bellies, and the Kamikaze pilots who killed themselves in order to damage the United States Navy.

There are certainly examples of bravery and sacrifice in other cultures, including ours. But it doesn't approach the Japanese, IMO.

:facepalm:

wow

Yes? Why is this post so shocking?

I forget sometimes. How old do we think this guy is?

 

[renesauz]

Can the water trucks even work? I am guessing that the temperature is nearing 1000 degrees C. Won't the water vaporize even if it's on target? Don't they need circulating water to cool these down?Each truck is said to have about 4 tons of water (For comparison, CNN said the helos were carrying 7.5 tons of water). That sounds like a lot, but these pools are 15m deep. Even if these water trucks can hit the target, won't this end up mostly being a giant steam show?

Spent fuel pools aren't even remotely that hot...they just need to be filled with water to restore sheilding. Restoring that shielding will allow workers easier access to the area and allow easier work on the bigger problems inside the reactor vessels.ETA: I should clarify. Rods which were recently (within the last few weeks)removed from an operating reactor could reach this temp. I'm not an expert on this specific reactor design, but I do know that civilian BWR's don't replace all of their rods at the same time. I would not expect more than a handful of rods to be approaching a dangerous temperature (I am skeptical of even this.) Even then, the decay heat would be low enough that refilling the pool would very quickly cool these rods and avert the danger.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I really don't believe that you have enough information to make these judgments. I certainly don't. A lot of what you're asserting here is based on conjecture.

Sig worthy imo

 

[timschochet]

There are a lot of pro nuclear experts in here and I would normally agree with them. The party line is nuclear is far more environmentally friendly and carbon nuetral than coal, gas, oil, etc. I understand the reasoning. But my acceptance of it was based on the assumption that first world nations would take extensive measures for safety, and there would be international oversight, and timely integrated responses for a nuclear accident such as this. That is an assumption I now fail to take for granted anymore.Japan, who most everyone has a great deal of respect for, who seem like the perfect nation to govern over a technology like this has proven to be not a first world country, but no more or less volatile than Libya and other nations we fear. They have purposely withheld information that was key to resolving this crisis, and precious time and resources have been wasted. The Government of Japan defers to a private company that does not have a clue how to handle this crisis, and the international community defers to the judgment of Japan. The government has no credibility to make decisions when they offer no oversight of TEPCO. International support is stonewalled behind a firewall of Japanese Gov't propoganda. The latest non-sustainable solution of spraying water over the reactors is a sad, desperate act of a response team that is overwhelmed and need the experts to take over.

Sorry Raider, but this is unfair. The scope of the greater tragedy absolutely must be taken into consideration. Without the tsunami, none of these plants would have been in danger. EVerything worked as it should after the earthquake. Backup #1 was the power grid....failed by earthquake. Backup #3 was the diesel...protected by a sea wall from more minor tsunamis. UNfortunately, this one was from a 9.0 earthquake and was anything but minor. EVen then, enough protection was afforded that most of the plant was spared. Even with the tsunami, it's painfully clear they had emergency backups to that, batteries and such providing temporary relief.Now, guys had to scramble in a worst case scenario, and yet here, five or so days later, in a country whos infrastructure, especially local, has been absolutely DEVASTATED, they have still averted a full meltdown and release of significant long lived radioactive particles to the atmosphere. As has been repeatedly stated...every day dramaticly lowers the chance of this happening.Lessons will be learned from this, and plants will be made even safer, but those guys in Japan are doing a fantastic job given the hellish scenario they've been presented. The truth is they CAN'T talk to the public the way we'd like, because much of the design and operational stuff is sensitive info. While that doesn't preclude a cursory explanation that some people understand, history (and this thread!) has proven you can't make the layman calm down without going into that painful detail you simply don't have the time to do or ability to do because of the sensitive points.

Thank you for this post. You have made excellent posts all through this thread, and this is another one. What I especially appreciate is your ability to explain these matters in such a way that I (a total ignoramus on this subject) can understand. Not to mention the fact that you always make me feel much better about the outcome. Well done.

 

[renesauz]

OK I know a little bit about this crap....this is bad....so bad I bought Iodine pills and duct tape and plastic. Does anyone know what Russia did as a last resort for Cherbobyl? They dumped Boron and water from helicopters. This is bad. I still think nothing will happen but I am being prepared. If the spent fuel pool boiled dry like I have heard....holy crap.....that will be worse than Chernobyl.

No....it won't. And Iodine tablets are useless unless you're in the immediate area when the coolant was released.

 

[timschochet]

We don't know if these guys are really going to lose their lives. Hopefully, it's an overstated risk, and they won't.

But if they do lose their lives over this, it should be noted that this is an aspect of the Japanese culture that goes back over a thousand years: the willingness of individuals to sacrifice their lives for what they believe is a greater good, or simply because that is their giri- duty and fate. This is embedded deep into Shinto beliefs, as exemplified by the Samurai willing to slit their bellies, and the Kamikaze pilots who killed themselves in order to damage the United States Navy.

There are certainly examples of bravery and sacrifice in other cultures, including ours. But it doesn't approach the Japanese, IMO.

:facepalm:

wow

Yes? Why is this post so shocking?

I forget sometimes. How old do we think this guy is?

I am 45 years old.The comments about the sacrifice of the Japanese workers and its relationship to Shintoism is something I heard referenced to on the radio, thought was interesting and true, and repeated it here. Before I did so, I discussed it with a Japanese neighbor of mine to see if she thought there was any merit to it. She did. I have written plenty of absurd statements on a variety of subjects, but I don't think this is one of them. But if you guys disagree, let me know why please.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Health experts said panic over radiation leaks from the Daiichi plant, around 240 km (150 miles) north of Tokyo, was diverting attention from other life-threatening risks facing survivors of last Friday's earthquake and tsunami, such as cold, heavy snow in parts and access to fresh water.

I can't even imagine how bleak things must seem to folks in the area - even without worrying about the radiation. Earthquake, Tsunami, snowstorm.

 

[timschochet]

Anyone have up to date news on this? Once again, I am listening to talk radio this morning, and the progressives are "it's getting much worse- they can't fix it- why are we building more nuclear plants! Stop the insanity". Meanwhile the conservatives are: "There's nothing to see here. It's not even a problem. Move on."

Very frustrating- I wish I had a better idea what's going on.

 

[Fennis]

The highest radiation reading among various locations that had to be accessed by the workers hit 600 millisieverts, equal to several years of daily exposure limit, according to statistics released by Tokyo Electric Power Co.

Many countries have an emergency limit of 100 millisieverts a year. Yet on Wednesday, Japan's Ministry of Health Labor and Welfare raised the maximum legal exposure for nuclear workers to 250 millisieverts. It described the move as “unavoidable due to the circumstances.”

Absorbing that kind of dose definately raises the lifetime cancer risk an appreciable amount, but still isn't enough to cause radiation sickness. IE: Isn't immediately deadly.If this were TRULY a major risk to the general public, they wouldn't even be discussing radiation limits....guys would be just doing what had to be done to save lives, just like firement and policemen and others have always done.

SOme of you see this as more proof of the extreme danger. It is in fact proof positive of the OPPOSITE.

I'm at a loss why you think workers being exposed to 600 millisieverts is remotely funny.