Michael Jordan or Lebron James? (1 Viewer)

[Koya]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

Not everyone leads the same way.

I remember the Bulls getting ram-rodded by the Pistons in Game 7 of the '90 ECF, and I don't recall Jordan once getting in the faces of his teammates to light a fire under their asses. What a terrible leader he must have been, right?

I love how almost every MJ reference is pre 91...

Oh, so things that cast all-time greats in a negative light at all don't count if they happened in non-title-winning years? I guess you'll give LeBron a pass for all of this stuff if the Heat lose, then, right, Skip?

He was 6-0 in the finals afterwards and the greatest of all time... I don't even think it is up for debate...

I assume you're a Lebron voter? Still time to change to the correct answer...

I voted for Jordan, as I said earlier in the thread. Come on, try and keep up, Skip.

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

Come on. You set it up to play with two friends; who happen to be two of the top players in the league? How come he ain't with Jabroni Jones or Goofy McGee or other 12th men? How come he's not setting it up to play with them? HOW COME?

Two of the top players in the league? Bosh has hardly ever been one of the top players in the league (his only nba all-team was when he made 2nd team in '07).

As for 12th men, he played with a collection of mostly (see: not all, so need to mention the few exceptions) average at best players in Cleveland, yet still got that joke of a franchise to a finals once.

And how's this for a fun stat:

Miami's playoff record in the four years prior to James getting there: 4-12

MIami's playoff record in the four years since James got there: 59-27

So yeah, let's not act like he isn't the difference. Before he got there, Miami was not some team on the verge of winning it, and LeBron went there and gave them a little nudge to the top; they were a fringe playoff team that couldn't get out of the first round for four years before he got there, even with Dwayne Wade in his prime.

I don't know why some of you Jordan honks feel the need to tear down James in order to prop Jordan up. It's sad. Just about everyone agrees that Jordan is the greatest ever, but that doesn't mean James hasn't been magnificent as well.

James has been amazing. Has lived up to and exceeded ridiculous hype.

He's within the 5-10 best players ever and he has half a career to go.

It's just that Lebron has shown they awesome as he is, it may not quite be at the top 2-3 players ever. That's hardly a slight IMO.

Also, in terms of force of personality, it's far more lopsided in regard to what Jordan did outside the lines to redefine sports superstardom.

 

[cstu]

Two of the top players in the league? Bosh has hardly ever been one of the top players in the league (his only nba all-team was when he made 2nd team in '07).

As for 12th men, he played with a collection of mostly (see: not all, so need to mention the few exceptions) average at best players in Cleveland, yet still got that joke of a franchise to a finals once.

And how's this for a fun stat:

Miami's playoff record in the four years prior to James getting there: 4-12

MIami's playoff record in the four years since James got there: 59-27

So yeah, let's not act like he isn't the difference. Before he got there, Miami was not some team on the verge of winning it, and LeBron went there and gave them a little nudge to the top; they were a fringe playoff team that couldn't get out of the first round for four years before he got there, even with Dwayne Wade in his prime.

I don't know why some of you Jordan honks feel the need to tear down James in order to prop Jordan up. It's sad. Just about everyone agrees that Jordan is the greatest ever, but that doesn't mean James hasn't been magnificent as well.

Stopping pretending Bosh isn't a top player in the league - he's been to 9 straight All-Star games.

When Lebron and Bosh joined the Heat they went from a low end playoff team to an All-Star team expected to win titles. This was supposed to be an unstoppable machine, not one that gets whipped by an over the hill Spurs team.

 

[ghostguy123]

Stopping pretending Bosh isn't a top player in the league - he's been to 9 straight All-Star games.

Ummm, Bosh looks NOTHING like a top player in the league.

There's quite a bit of guys that were left off the all star team that are better players than Bosh has been the past few years and right now.

The Heat right now resemble my Cavs when Bron took them to the finals. It's Lebron and a bunch of average. Wade looks awful, slow, doesnt move on defense, doesnt move on offense.

Bosh stand in the corner on offense.

Everyone else is either old and slow or average at best.

I don't care if the Heat win this finals or not, I never thought Bron would stay. He knows how much worse they will be next year.

Jordan>>>>>>Lebron, and always will be, but I really can't look at this finals and knock Bron down a peg.............and I hate the loser

 

[Spartans Rule]

Bosh is still a top player. He's never been a perfect fit on the Heat, having to play on the perimeter on offense and guard centers on defense. His counting stats have predictably gone down but his efficiency has been excellent the last few years.

I'm pretty sure in the right situation he could still equal or at least come very close to his Raptors-years production.

 

[Kev4029]

Bosh is still a top player. He's never been a perfect fit on the Heat, having to play on the perimeter on offense and guard centers on defense. His counting stats have predictably gone down but his efficiency has been excellent the last few years.

I'm pretty sure in the right situation he could still equal or at least come very close to his Raptors-years production.

He is a perfect fit for the Heat. The Heat might not be a perfect team for him to showcase his talents, but I don't know if there are more than a couple (maybe none) big men that would be a better fit for the Heat than Bosh. People rip on Bosh for becoming a jump shooter, but hes shot 53% and 49% from mid range the last two years and 34% from 3 this year. Those are absurd percentages, especially for a big man. He's basically turned himself into Dirk Nowitzki from the perimeter, with more range. Defensively, he can't bang with the big centers, but those are few and far between. Bosh is criminally underrated by some in here.

 

[Daywalker]

Bosh is still a top player. He's never been a perfect fit on the Heat, having to play on the perimeter on offense and guard centers on defense. His counting stats have predictably gone down but his efficiency has been excellent the last few years.

I'm pretty sure in the right situation he could still equal or at least come very close to his Raptors-years production.

He is a perfect fit for the Heat. The Heat might not be a perfect team for him to showcase his talents, but I don't know if there are more than a couple (maybe none) big men that would be a better fit for the Heat than Bosh. People rip on Bosh for becoming a jump shooter, but hes shot 53% and 49% from mid range the last two years and 34% from 3 this year. Those are absurd percentages, especially for a big man. He's basically turned himself into Dirk Nowitzki from the perimeter, with more range. Defensively, he can't bang with the big centers, but those are few and far between. Bosh is criminally underrated by some in here.

He's a great fit for Miami but more range then Dirk?

 

[ghostguy123]

Bosh is still a top player. He's never been a perfect fit on the Heat, having to play on the perimeter on offense and guard centers on defense. His counting stats have predictably gone down but his efficiency has been excellent the last few years.

I'm pretty sure in the right situation he could still equal or at least come very close to his Raptors-years production.

He is a perfect fit for the Heat. The Heat might not be a perfect team for him to showcase his talents, but I don't know if there are more than a couple (maybe none) big men that would be a better fit for the Heat than Bosh. People rip on Bosh for becoming a jump shooter, but hes shot 53% and 49% from mid range the last two years and 34% from 3 this year. Those are absurd percentages, especially for a big man. He's basically turned himself into Dirk Nowitzki from the perimeter, with more range. Defensively, he can't bang with the big centers, but those are few and far between. Bosh is criminally underrated by some in here.

I dont think anybody is saying he isn't GOOD................but he isn't near the top.

 

[ghostguy123]

He's a great fit for Miami but more range then Dirk?

I didn't catch that at first. Wow.

 

[Tau837]

Bosh is still a top player. He's never been a perfect fit on the Heat, having to play on the perimeter on offense and guard centers on defense. His counting stats have predictably gone down but his efficiency has been excellent the last few years.

I'm pretty sure in the right situation he could still equal or at least come very close to his Raptors-years production.

He is a perfect fit for the Heat. The Heat might not be a perfect team for him to showcase his talents, but I don't know if there are more than a couple (maybe none) big men that would be a better fit for the Heat than Bosh. People rip on Bosh for becoming a jump shooter, but hes shot 53% and 49% from mid range the last two years and 34% from 3 this year. Those are absurd percentages, especially for a big man. He's basically turned himself into Dirk Nowitzki from the perimeter, with more range. Defensively, he can't bang with the big centers, but those are few and far between. Bosh is criminally underrated by some in here.

He's a great fit for Miami but more range then Dirk?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Bosh is still a top player. He's never been a perfect fit on the Heat, having to play on the perimeter on offense and guard centers on defense. His counting stats have predictably gone down but his efficiency has been excellent the last few years.

I'm pretty sure in the right situation he could still equal or at least come very close to his Raptors-years production.

He is a perfect fit for the Heat. The Heat might not be a perfect team for him to showcase his talents, but I don't know if there are more than a couple (maybe none) big men that would be a better fit for the Heat than Bosh. People rip on Bosh for becoming a jump shooter, but hes shot 53% and 49% from mid range the last two years and 34% from 3 this year. Those are absurd percentages, especially for a big man. He's basically turned himself into Dirk Nowitzki from the perimeter, with more range. Defensively, he can't bang with the big centers, but those are few and far between. Bosh is criminally underrated by some in here.

I dont think anybody is saying he isn't GOOD................but he isn't near the top.

Sure he is. Put him back on "his own" team and he'd be putting up 20/10 like he used. He has purposely taken a back seat and a giant hit to his persona (from casual fans) in order to help make Miami better. There are very few guys in the league who could fill he role. He's still a top 5ish PF.

 

[DrJ]

 

[Jayrod]

And now?

 

[Koya]

Sorry, I just can't see how a Jordan in his prime could have this happen to him. Brutal.

Hard to imagine that getting to a finals could in any way HURT your standing, but I don't see how this can do anything, but.

 

[TenTimes]

Sorry, I just can't see how a Jordan in his prime could have this happen to him. Brutal.

Hard to imagine that getting to a finals could in any way HURT your standing, but I don't see how this can do anything, but.

What more could LeBron do?! Clone himself?

 

[flapgreen]

He's a great fit for Miami but more range then Dirk?

I didn't catch that at first. Wow.

 

[ghostguy123]

Sorry, I just can't see how a Jordan in his prime could have this happen to him. Brutal.

Hard to imagine that getting to a finals could in any way HURT your standing, but I don't see how this can do anything, but.

While I believe Jordan is the best even, even HE doesn't win this finals if he played in his prime over Lebron here. Maybe, MAYBE they lose it in 6 rather than 5, but still get blown out a couple times.

 

[timschochet]

Sorry, I just can't see how a Jordan in his prime could have this happen to him. Brutal.

Hard to imagine that getting to a finals could in any way HURT your standing, but I don't see how this can do anything, but.

Jordan's best team (72-10) would have lost to this Spurs team, IMO.

 

[flapgreen]

Lol

 

[sn0mm1s]

Sorry, I just can't see how a Jordan in his prime could have this happen to him. Brutal.

Hard to imagine that getting to a finals could in any way HURT your standing, but I don't see how this can do anything, but.

Jordan's best team (72-10) would have lost to this Spurs team, IMO.

Not even close - that team would dismantle this Spurs team.

 

[ghostguy123]

Sorry, I just can't see how a Jordan in his prime could have this happen to him. Brutal.

Hard to imagine that getting to a finals could in any way HURT your standing, but I don't see how this can do anything, but.

Jordan's best team (72-10) would have lost to this Spurs team, IMO.

Not even close - that team would dismantle this Spurs team.

I would have to say that Bulls team wins vs this year's (or any years) SPurs team.

 

[Tom Servo]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

 

[ghostguy123]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

ummm, what does that have to do with the price of newspapers in China?

The Heat team is terrible compared to what Jordan played with..........and this is coming from someone who thinks Jordan >>>>>>>Lebron will ever be

 

[fantasycurse42]

Bosh is still a top player. He's never been a perfect fit on the Heat, having to play on the perimeter on offense and guard centers on defense. His counting stats have predictably gone down but his efficiency has been excellent the last few years.

I'm pretty sure in the right situation he could still equal or at least come very close to his Raptors-years production.

He is a perfect fit for the Heat. The Heat might not be a perfect team for him to showcase his talents, but I don't know if there are more than a couple (maybe none) big men that would be a better fit for the Heat than Bosh. People rip on Bosh for becoming a jump shooter, but hes shot 53% and 49% from mid range the last two years and 34% from 3 this year. Those are absurd percentages, especially for a big man. He's basically turned himself into Dirk Nowitzki from the perimeter, with more range. Defensively, he can't bang with the big centers, but those are few and far between. Bosh is criminally underrated by some in here.

I dont think anybody is saying he isn't GOOD................but he isn't near the top.

Sure he is. Put him back on "his own" team and he'd be putting up 20/10 like he used. He has purposely taken a back seat and a giant hit to his persona (from casual fans) in order to help make Miami better. There are very few guys in the league who could fill he role. He's still a top 5ish PF.

 

[Ghost Rider]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

I thought the team lost, not a single player.

Besides, pinning last night on James would be moronic, since he's the only one who showed up to play.

 

[Pipes]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

ummm, what does that have to do with the price of newspapers in China?

The Heat team is terrible compared to what Jordan played with..........and this is coming from someone who thinks Jordan >>>>>>>Lebron will ever be

This supporting cast of the Heat is not terrible compared to Michael's supporting cast. I would argue the 15 point deficit has to do with the Spurs being much better than anyone the Bulls defeated to win a ring.

 

[NCCommish]

Scoreboard. It's always about the rings in the end. Looking less and less likely James will get there. Maybe he will, he is still young. But there is no guarantee of the Finals every year. There is no guarantee he'll ever get back. Look at Tiger. World beating and unstoppable. Now not so much. It's much more fleeting than people seem to think. And it doesn't take much to close the door.

 

[fantasycurse42]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

ummm, what does that have to do with the price of newspapers in China?

The Heat team is terrible compared to what Jordan played with..........and this is coming from someone who thinks Jordan >>>>>>>Lebron will ever be

This supporting cast of the Heat is not terrible compared to Michael's supporting cast. I would argue the 15 point deficit has to do with the Spurs being much better than anyone the Bulls defeated to win a ring.

91 Lakers, 97/98 Jazz both very talented teams with multiple HOFers. Not saying better than SA, but very talented teams.

 

[cstu]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

I thought the team lost, not a single player.

Besides, pinning last night on James would be moronic, since he's the only one who showed up to play.

Would Jordan have allowed that to happen?

 

[Ghost Rider]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

I thought the team lost, not a single player.

Besides, pinning last night on James would be moronic, since he's the only one who showed up to play.

Would Jordan have allowed that to happen?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006030DET.html

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Scoreboard. It's always about the rings in the end. Looking less and less likely James will get there. Maybe he will, he is still young. But there is no guarantee of the Finals every year. There is no guarantee he'll ever get back. Look at Tiger. World beating and unstoppable. Now not so much. It's much more fleeting than people seem to think. And it doesn't take much to close the door.

Horry > MJ.

Horry > Wilt

Horry > Shaq

 

[NCCommish]

Scoreboard. It's always about the rings in the end. Looking less and less likely James will get there. Maybe he will, he is still young. But there is no guarantee of the Finals every year. There is no guarantee he'll ever get back. Look at Tiger. World beating and unstoppable. Now not so much. It's much more fleeting than people seem to think. And it doesn't take much to close the door.

Horry > MJ.

Horry > Wilt

Horry > Shaq

Yeah Horry is always in the conversation for GOAT. Getting rings on the bench isn't really the same thing.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Scoreboard. It's always about the rings in the end. Looking less and less likely James will get there. Maybe he will, he is still young. But there is no guarantee of the Finals every year. There is no guarantee he'll ever get back. Look at Tiger. World beating and unstoppable. Now not so much. It's much more fleeting than people seem to think. And it doesn't take much to close the door.

Horry > MJ.

Horry > Wilt

Horry > Shaq

Yeah Horry is always in the conversation for GOAT. Getting rings on the bench isn't really the same thing.

Scoreboard. Its all about the rings in the end.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Scoreboard. It's always about the rings in the end. Looking less and less likely James will get there. Maybe he will, he is still young. But there is no guarantee of the Finals every year. There is no guarantee he'll ever get back. Look at Tiger. World beating and unstoppable. Now not so much. It's much more fleeting than people seem to think. And it doesn't take much to close the door.

Horry > MJ.

Horry > Wilt

Horry > Shaq

Yeah Horry is always in the conversation for GOAT. Getting rings on the bench isn't really the same thing.

Even if you discount the 4 rings he won off the bench, Horry's still got 3 as a starter. Horry > Wilt and Horry > LeBron.

 

[Thunderlips]

Yeah...it's MJ. No digga, no doubt.

 

[NCCommish]

Are we really comparing Horry to MJ now? Sure you guys run with that. You know what I meant. When we talk about these elite players it comes down to Championships. Ask Peyton. Ask Dan Marino. Always an asterisk.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Are we really comparing Horry to MJ now? Sure you guys run with that. You know what I meant. When we talk about these elite players it comes down to Championships. Ask Peyton. Ask Dan Marino. Always an asterisk.

When using a dumb argument you should expect a dumb response.

 

[Spanky24]

Scoreboard. It's always about the rings in the end. Looking less and less likely James will get there. Maybe he will, he is still young. But there is no guarantee of the Finals every year. There is no guarantee he'll ever get back. Look at Tiger. World beating and unstoppable. Now not so much. It's much more fleeting than people seem to think. And it doesn't take much to close the door.

Lets wait and see what team he piggybacks this summer and new group of super-friends he forms before we say his title runs are over.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Are we really comparing Horry to MJ now? Sure you guys run with that. You know what I meant. When we talk about these elite players it comes down to Championships. Ask Peyton. Ask Dan Marino. Always an asterisk.

We're not comparing Horry to Jordan. We're using Horry to point out the mind-blowing stupidity of using team accomplishments to rate individual players.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Are we really comparing Horry to MJ now? Sure you guys run with that. You know what I meant. When we talk about these elite players it comes down to Championships. Ask Peyton. Ask Dan Marino. Always an asterisk.

Championships mean something when comparing players of similar all-time ilk, but they don't mean everything.

 

[Premier]

Sorry, I just can't see how a Jordan in his prime could have this happen to him. Brutal.

Hard to imagine that getting to a finals could in any way HURT your standing, but I don't see how this can do anything, but.

Why do you pretend that Jordan won a title every season he played?

 

[Tau837]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

ummm, what does that have to do with the price of newspapers in China?

The Heat team is terrible compared to what Jordan played with..........and this is coming from someone who thinks Jordan >>>>>>>Lebron will ever be

This supporting cast of the Heat is not terrible compared to Michael's supporting cast. I would argue the 15 point deficit has to do with the Spurs being much better than anyone the Bulls defeated to win a ring.

91 Lakers, 97/98 Jazz both very talented teams with multiple HOFers. Not saying better than SA, but very talented teams.

The Lakers were very talented but had injury problems in the Finals.

The 93 Suns and 96 Sonics were also very talented.

 

[grateful zed]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

I thought the team lost, not a single player.

Besides, pinning last night on James would be moronic, since he's the only one who showed up to play.

yep

 

[Thunderlips]

at the LeBronies........maybe next year.

 

[Tom Servo]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

I thought the team lost, not a single player.

Besides, pinning last night on James would be moronic, since he's the only one who showed up to play.

Just pointing out a stat, Chief. If it makes you feel better, add " 's team" to both names.

 

[cstu]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

I thought the team lost, not a single player.

Besides, pinning last night on James would be moronic, since he's the only one who showed up to play.

Would Jordan have allowed that to happen?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006030DET.html

Do I really need to compare the rosters of those two teams?

 

[Jayrod]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

I thought the team lost, not a single player.

Besides, pinning last night on James would be moronic, since he's the only one who showed up to play.

Would Jordan have allowed that to happen?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006030DET.html

That was the Pippen migraine game....Scottie still tried to play and logged 42 minutes in that game. Watch the 30 for 30 on the Bad Boys and Jordan talks about that game as the reason he became the player he was after that. He used his defeats to fuel him to greatness an vow to never let it happen again.

Plus, in your 6th season, losing in game 7 to the eventual 2 time champs with your second best player having medical issues is better than losing in game 6 to the runner up when you get great contributions from your supporting cast:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200905300ORL.html

 

[Kev4029]

From ESPN:

In his NBA Finals career, MJ lost by 15+ points just once.

LeBron lost every game in this series by 15+ points.

I thought the team lost, not a single player.

Besides, pinning last night on James would be moronic, since he's the only one who showed up to play.

Would Jordan have allowed that to happen?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006030DET.html

That was the Pippen migraine game....Scottie still tried to play and logged 42 minutes in that game. Watch the 30 for 30 on the Bad Boys and Jordan talks about that game as the reason he became the player he was after that. He used his defeats to fuel him to greatness an vow to never let it happen again.

Plus, in your 6th season, losing in game 7 to the eventual 2 time champs with your second best player having medical issues is better than losing in game 6 to the runner up when you get great contributions from your supporting cast:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200905300ORL.html

Jordan should have willed Pippen's headache away, IMO. Mind is stronger than body.

 

[DrJ]

Crazy what this finals did to Lebron's legacy. A week ago, he was the first player since MJ worth having this discussion over. Now this thread just needs to be retired, it's a waste of everyone's time and just makes the Lebron fans look stupid(er).

 

[ghostguy123]

Crazy what this finals did to Lebron's legacy. A week ago, he was the first player since MJ worth having this discussion over. Now this thread just needs to be retired, it's a waste of everyone's time and just makes the Lebron fans look stupid(er).

Why? He play bad or something?

 

[Reegus]

Crazy what this finals did to Lebron's legacy. A week ago, he was the first player since MJ worth having this discussion over. Now this thread just needs to be retired, it's a waste of everyone's time and just makes the Lebron fans look stupid(er).

Dr.J show us on the doll where king james touched your mom.