Michael Lombardi (1 Viewer)

[MAC_32]

Front offices get fired if they get qb wrong. Reaching for a marginal qb out of need costs people jobs. Ponder was and is a marginal qb.

Well you should know. The Browns do it every 2 or 3 years. Good luck with Lombardi.

Accurate statement, I knew when we made the Weeden pick it would cost people their jobs. Just didn't anticipate it would be this quickly.

 

[MAC_32]

I get the economics, doesn't change my take on the wrong qb getting front offices fired though. Just ask the guys with Jacksonville, Arizona, buffalo, philly, Cleveland, and the Jets.

None of those teams made the playoffs.

 

[daveR]

Front offices get fired if they get qb wrong. Reaching for a marginal qb out of need costs people jobs. Ponder was and is a marginal qb.

Well you should know. The Browns do it every 2 or 3 years. Good luck with Lombardi.

Accurate statement, I knew when we made the Weeden pick it would cost people their jobs. Just didn't anticipate it would be this quickly.

The pick did not cost them their jobs -- Haslam did.

 

[Biabreakable]

I apologize if this topic has gotten somewhat offtrack.But as the evaluation of players goes how well front offices do at that is of course what they will be accountable for. How well they did doing that. The QB position is the most important position on the team. The 2nd likely being LT. The quality of play from the QB position has a lot to do with the success of a team and how many games the team wins, as well as how far they advance in the playoffs.I came across this article earlier and found it useful for seeing the quality of QBs that have entered college football and some of them now the Nfl-

Ranking the Best Quarterback Recruiting Classes of the last 10 YearsAthlon ranks the last 10 classes of quarterback recruits. By: Braden Gall | 1/24/13, 6:20 AM ESTRecruiting is reaching a fever pitch as the college football machine churns toward National Signing Day 2013. The first Wednesday in February is the NCAA’s version of Christmas morning for fans and coaches alike. Great coaching is the key to winning, but so are great players. If your team has better athletes, generally speaking, it will win the game more often than not.That doesn’t mean that every five-star is an All-American or every two-star is a Sun Belt third stringer.Athlon Sports continues its analysis of recruiting over the last 10 years by evaluating the most important player on the field. The quarterback position has evolved dramatically over the last decade and it has made scouting the game’s most intricate position that much more difficult.Every year isn’t created equally and the Athlon Consensus 100 proves this quite obviously. Since its inception in 2008, two quarterbacks have been ranked as the top player in the nation — Terrelle Pryor (2008) and Matt Barkley (2009). In 2010, however, Jake Heaps was considered the nation’s best quarterback, but was ranked No. 42 overall. Jeff Driskel was the top signal caller in 2011 and was No. 17 overall. Some quarterback classes are deeper and more talented than others.Here is how Athlon Sports ranks the quarterback classes over the last 10 years:1. Class of 2006The Super Stars: Tim Tebow, Matthew Stafford, Sam Bradford, Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, Jake Locker, Case KeenumThe Best of the Rest: Christian Ponder, Josh Freeman, Greg McElroy, Todd Reesing, Nate Davis, Juice Williams, TJ Yates, Ricky Stanzi, Thaddeus Lewis, John Skelton, Scott Tolzien, Nathan EnderleThis group features six first-round picks, including two No. 1 overall selections, and two second rounders. It registered two Heisman Trophies, three BCS National Championships and featured the most prolific passer in NCAA history. And Colin Kaepernick, who was a statistical juggernaut at Nevada, has led the 49ers to Super Bowl XLVII. Additionally, Yates, Stafford and Dalton have all started NFL playoff games while Ponder led the Vikings to an improbable playoff berth this fall. This class has long been considered the best of the modern era and it appears nothing has changed.2. Class of 2008The Super Stars: Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin III, Collin Klein, Landry Jones, Blaine GabbertThe Best of the Rest: EJ Manuel, Terrelle Pryor, Darron Thomas, Mike Glennon, Seth Doege, Tyler Wilson, Colby Cameron, Sean Renfree, Ryan Nassib, Matt Scott, Nick Florence, Zac Dysert, Alex Carder, Jacory HarrisWhen all is said and done, Luck and Griffin III might be better than anyone in the 2006 class, but the depth at the top isn’t as elite. Jones is one of the most prolific passers in history, but his legacy might be more disappointment than Hall of Fame. Klein, Thomas, and Pryor are electric athletes who used their legs but have issues with accuracy. What makes this class great is its depth in the middle as names like Nick Florence, Matt Scott, Ryan Nassib and Seth Doege are underrated nationally in terms of production. In all, this group claims three first-round picks (with a chance at a couple more), one Heisman Trophy, a handful of conference championships and one BCS title game appearance.3. Class of 2009The Super Stars: AJ McCarron, Aaron Murray, Matt Barkley, Geno Smith, Tajh Boyd, Taylor Martinez, Denard Robinson, Jordan LynchThe Best of the Rest: Derek Carr, Logan Thomas, Keith Price, Bryn Renner, Tyler Russell, Brock OsweilerThere is no elite, No. 1 overall type of talent in this class but there are some huge numbers. And athletes. Martinez, Robinson, Lynch and Thomas have combined for 118 career rushing touchdowns and over 10,000 yards rushing. Boyd, Smith, Carr and Barkley have all been elite passers with huge numbers through the air. Aaron Murray has two SEC East titles and could rewrite the SEC passing record books next fall and could potentially make a run at the first round in 2014. And then there are two BCS national championship rings courtesy of McCarron (three if you count his redshirt season). The upside of this group gives it a slight nod over the established stars of the 2007 class as college football should be excited that most of the names in this class decided to return to school instead of going pro (Murray, McCarron, Boyd, Carr, Thomas, Renner).4. Class of 2007The Super Stars: Cam Newton, Brandon Weeden, Russell Wilson, Kellen Moore, Kirk Cousins, Ryan MallettThe Best of the Rest: Ryan Tannehill, Chandler Harnish, Tyrod Taylor, Josh Nesbitt, Jimmy Clausen, Ryan Lindley, Dan Persa, GJ KinneOne guy gives this class a Heisman Trophy, a BCS national title and a No. 1 overall pick in the NFL Draft. But the rest of the group is underrated as well. Wilson and Weeden are NFL starters who broke all kinds of NCAA records while Kellen Moore is the winningest QB in history. Cousins is an extremely underrated leader and is the best QB in Michigan State history while Mallett, Lindley and Tannehill are all NFL players. Taylor and Nesbitt give this group plenty of athleticism as well.5. Class of 2003The Super Stars: Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Chris Leak, Paul Smith, Kevin Kolb, Dennis Dixon, Brady Quinn, Andre WoodsonThe Best of the Rest: John Beck, John David Booty, Kevin O'Connell, Tom Brandstater, Matt Flynn, JaMarcus Russell, Drew TateRyan and Flacco are elite NFL passers but both were mid-level recruits and Flacco had to transfer to get to the first round. In all, there are four first-round picks, two BCS National Championships and a host of players who would be among their school's greatest of all-time — Woodson, Smith, Kolb and Dixon won a lot of games with big numbers. If JaMarcus Russell wasn't arguably the biggest bust (literally and figuratively) in NFL Draft history, this class could make a case for being higher on the list. 6. Class of 2011The Super Stars: Johnny Manziel, Braxton Miller, Marcus Mariota, Teddy Bridgewater, Brett HundleyThe Best of the Rest: Everett Golson, Jeff Driskel, Chuckie Keeton, Gary Nova, Trevone Boykin, David Ash, Max WittekIn just two short seasons, it is hard to argue the upside of the 2011 group. Manziel has a Heisman Trophy while the top five names in this class will feature prominently in the chase for the 2013 stiff-armed trophy. And all five could have their teams in the BCS National Championship hunt as well. Toss in Golson, Driskel and Keeton as well as a host of other names who have yet to be discovered and this group is already well established. This might be the only class that could make a run at the 2006 class for top billing.7. Class of 2002The Super Stars: Vince Young, Troy Smith, Colt BrennanThe Best of the Rest: Drew Stanton, Omar Jacobs, Phil Horvath, Trent Edwards, John Stocco, Marcus Vick, Jordan Palmer, Drew Olson, Tyler PalkoAt the top, this class had an elite trio. Young is the most unstoppable player I’ve ever seen on a college gridiron and he won the ultimate prize. Smith also led his team to the national title game and claimed Ohio State’s seventh Heisman Trophy. Brennan posted huge numbers at Hawaii in getting the Warriors to their one and only BCS bowl game.8. Class of 2004The Super Stars: Brian Brohm, Pat White, Brian Johnson, Graham Harrell, Daryll ClarkThe Best of the Rest: Max Hall, Chad Henne, Curtis Painter, Stephen McGee, Brian Hoyer, John Parker Wilson, Erik Ainge, CJ Bacher, Mike Teel, Rudy CarpenterNone of these names will ever be NFL stars but there are some elite college players in this class. Clark, Brohm, White and Johnson all led their teams to historic seasons, conference crowns and BCS bowl wins. Harrell posted elite passing statistics while Hall, Henne, Painter and Parker Wilson all started for at least three seasons at four of the most historic quarterback programs in the nation (BYU, Michigan, Purdue, Alabama). The depth of this class gives it a slight edge on the 2005 group.9. Class of 2005The Super Stars: Colt McCoy, Chase Daniel, Mark Sanchez, Zac Robinson, Dan LeFevourThe Best of the Rest: Riley Skinner, Tony Pike, Joe Webb, Sean Canfield, Mike Kafka, Levi Brown, Matt Grothe, Tim Hiller, Jarrett BrownThe top five were great players for their schools but that is about all this class has to offer. Yes, Canfield, Kafka, Webb and Pike were NFL Draft picks but all are bench players. McCoy is the real star, finishing his career with more wins than anyone in history (until Kellen Moore) and leading Texas into the championship game. Sanchez had a great team at USC and was a top pick but has very little experience. Robinson and Daniel were, at the time of graduation, likely the top quarterbacks in program history. LeFevour is a big reason why Brian Kelly and Butch Jones are coaching at Notre Dame and Tennessee respectively.10. Class of 2010The Super Stars: Taylor Kelly, James Franklin, Tyler BrayThe Best of the Rest: Blake Bell, Tanner Price, Cody Fajardo, Devin Gardner, Stephen Morris, Sean Mannion, David Piland, Connor Shaw, Jake Heaps, Phillip SimsThe top two recruits in this class (Heaps, Sims) have both transferred but have new opportunities to be successful. Kelly, Franklin and Bray are the only established players in this group while some others have high expectations for 2013 (Fajardo, Morris, Bell, Shaw, Gardner). This group has to be ranked last due to the lack of established super stars. However, this class should move up over the next few seasons as more names emerge and the guys above continue to develop

http://www.athlonsports.com/college-football/ranking-best-quarterback-recruiting-classes-last-10-yearsPonder is not listed as a super star recruit but that is the standard he is held to by some because of being a 12th overall pick. Ponder was the 4th QB drafted and the next 2 QB were drafted before the Vikings next pick. The only super star QB from the 2011 NFL draft class was Cam Newton. Ponder has outperformed both Locker and Gabbert who were drafted ahead of him. Obviously Colin Kaepernick has turned out to be a great choice, but it also took a team that was willing to build their offense around his strengths, which the 49ers have done. The 49ers also have one of the best if not the best offensive lines in the game which surely helps. If the Vikings had decided to take Kaepernick they likely would have had to take him at pick 12 just as they did Ponder. Dalton and CK were not going to last to the Vikings next pick. They liked Ponder as a better fit for the Vikings offense at that time.All 32 teams are competing to get the best QB they can. A big part of it is about having the opportunity at the right time to actually get a super star QB. That takes some luck. There are only a few shots at one for each team over a decade and it is not every season. Also a time period of commitment to each QB before a team can fairly evaluate the player.

 

[MAC_32]

Front offices get fired if they get qb wrong. Reaching for a marginal qb out of need costs people jobs. Ponder was and is a marginal qb.

Well you should know. The Browns do it every 2 or 3 years. Good luck with Lombardi.

Accurate statement, I knew when we made the Weeden pick it would cost people their jobs. Just didn't anticipate it would be this quickly.

The pick did not cost them their jobs -- Haslam did.

Haslam just accelerated the process by a year or two imho.

 

[daveR]

Heckert did well. Lombardi did this.

Dave you are flat out wrong.Lombardi wasn't in charge of the personnel moves. Bill Belichick held supreme power and it has been widely reported.

BB is responsible for EVERYTHING you put at the foot of Lombardi and that's not all. He's also responsible for the following gems.

My link

... A Football Life,” NFL Films ignored two of the biggest personnel moves made by Belichick in Cleveland: the release of hometown hero Bernie Kosar, and the free agent signing of receiver Andre Rison.

... The immortal Todd Philcox started and lost the next three games, before 30-year-old Vinny Testaverde came off the bench to beat the Saints to get the Browns to 6-6. Testaverde started the rest of the season and won one start as the Browns finished 7-9 after that terrific start.

Nobody’s saying Belichick was wrong to move on from Kosar, but even Belichick has admitted in subsequent years that he didn’t handle the transition correctly. That’s kind of a key piece of history left out of the documentary.

As for Rison, Browns owner Art Modell was so broke that he had to go around to area banks to borrow the $5 million signing bonus that was paid to Rison in 1995 on a five-year, $17 million contract that made him the highest-paid receiver in NFL history...

Belichick got to rewrite history and he's never had to account for his part in those drafts which all began with the infamous KYLE BRADY phone throwing tantrum-trade-down that you should know about but obviously you don't if you try to pin those drafts on Lombardi ESPECIALLY BB's first draft wtih the infamous phone-throwing incident.

... Belichick. He traded the 10th pick in 1995 — ESPN reported Belichick was so incensed the Jets took tight end Kyle Brady ninth that he threw a phone against the wall — for three picks in ’95, and a first-round selection in ’96. Linebacker Craig Powell and defensive end Mike Frederick were the first two ’95 picks, and they washed out of the league quickly...

If Mike Lombardi was the one with goo-goo eyes for Kyle Brady (oh and lets not forget DT Warren Sapp was still sitting there when all of this was going on) then how come reports didn't surface about Mike Lombardi throwing-the-phone? How come Bil Belichick 'ALLEGEDLY' threw-the-phone against the wall?Actually Lombardi comes to BB's rescue and says it was an urban ledgend.

Also this particular source indicates that EVERY PICK was Belichicks.

My link

... Despite the legend that has grown up around his final draft with the Cleveland Browns, he insisted all week on at least this: He never threw the phone.

... In 1995, the story goes, Belichick was ready to take Penn State tight end Kyle Brady with the 10th pick, a selection many in the organization backed. But the New York Jets grabbed Brady out from under the Browns' noses, and what happened next has been the subject of some debate ever since.

According to both ESPN and published reports at the time, an enraged Belichick grabbed a phone and hurled it into the wall. According to Belichick and his drafting aide at the time, Mike Lombardi, nothing like that happened. According to others in Cleveland, it's gospel. Considering the way Brady's career turned out, he wasn't worth denting the phone anyway, but that's a separate issue.

"None of that was true," Lombardi insisted. "I'll take a lie detector test on that. Were we upset that he was taken right ahead of us? Yeah, but Bill wasn't really that crazy about Brady."

Belichick's story coincided with that of his former assistant. "Some people in the organization wanted Brady," he said. "How badly, I don't know."

What Belichick does know is what followed, which was his decision to trade out of the 10th slot all the way down to No. 30, where he selected an undersized Ohio State linebacker named Craig Powell, who did little in football after suffering a severe knee injury that summer and is no longer in the game.

Whom he could have taken at No. 10, however, is of more importance, because he could have taken someone who became one of the best defensive linemen in the NFL.

"One thing I learned from that draft, and I think Bill learned as well, was that we were not prepared to make the right decision on a certain player," recalled Lombardi, who now works in personnel with the Oakland Raiders.

"It was Warren Sapp. We'd lost James Jones to Denver and Michael Dean Perry, too, so we were looking for defensive linemen. If we were prepared and known if Sapp was a good or bad guy, we would have taken him and things would have been fine. But we didn't know, so we traded back and took Powell, who wasn't a very good pick.

In this game, you have to learn from your mistakes. There's no Draft Management 101 course. I know I learned from that case, and I believe Bill did too. That will not happen again to either of us. One thing about Bill, he analyzed every draft and studied our mistakes. He doesn't make the same mistake twice."

The mistake that day--putting the telephone aside--was that his organization lacked enough information on one player and gambled on another. During the five years Belichick was the Browns' head coach and general manager (1991-95), he drafted some good players but missed on what seems like more than the norm. What that bodes for the Patriots' future is impossible to determine. All that is sure is that Belichick had the final say Saturday, so the credit--not to mention the blame--will fall on him one way or the other.

In his first year of selecting, Belichick got a Pro Bowl player in safety Eric Turner, the second pick overall, and another productive one in the sixth round in wide receiver Michael Jackson, who twice led the Browns in receptions. He hit again in 1994 on Derrick Alexander, a receiver who remains the Chiefs' best pass catcher, and got some solid years out of center Steve Everitt, cornerback Antonio Langham (until he lost his confidence), linebacker Gerald Dixon, defensive linemen James Jones and Pio Sagapolutele, and a good season from Mike Frederick before being fired after the 1995 season.

But Belichick also had some spectacular misses, such as Powell, guard Ed King, defensive lineman Bill Johnson, and wide receiver Pat Rowe, all second- and third-round choices no longer in football. Several of those failures suffered serious injuries early in their careers, which is more a case of bad luck than bad analysis, but the most glaring deficiency in Belichick's Cleveland drafts came near the end of them.

I think most people believe that Bill Belichick learned from his early mistakes in Cleveland, not just his draft miscue's but other personell decisions.If Bill gets credit for being able to learn I'll extend the same courtesy to Lombardi.

Oh and I don't think Belichick has turned into a drafting guru. He got incredibly lucky with Tom Brady but other than that one incredible lucky pick his drafting history isn't spectacular but guess what?

NOBODY has a spectacular drafting history so I would guess Lombardi won't turn into a pefect picker. I just hope he's able to replicate nailing his top picks like Heckertt did and can hopefully find at least one great-late rounder like BB did with Brady.

How can you defend Lombardi when he himself admits he failed (to do his job re: Sapp)?

 

[MAC_32]

People make mistakes, making one mistake is not a bad thing, repeating them would be. We'll see if he learned...

 

[Riversco]

Why do people bring up misses when evaluating GMs? Every GM misses. They make huge misses every year. What separates the good from the bad is how many hits they have. The Patriots selected Daniel Graham with their first pick in 2002. Ed Reed went 3 picks later. Does this mean the Patriots suck? No.

 

[Papa John's]

He does a weekly segment on one of the Chicago sports radio shows. I'd much rather listen to him, who's been there, than the talking heads / glorified reporters that ESPN throws out there. He's one of my favorites when it comes to talking about the NFL as a whole.

I couldn't agree more. He's really good. He has really good insights about front office matters and team interaction/cohesiveness.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Heckert did well. Lombardi did this.

Dave you are flat out wrong.Lombardi wasn't in charge of the personnel moves. Bill Belichick held supreme power and it has been widely reported.

BB is responsible for EVERYTHING you put at the foot of Lombardi and that's not all. He's also responsible for the following gems.

My link

... A Football Life, NFL Films ignored two of the biggest personnel moves made by Belichick in Cleveland: the release of hometown hero Bernie Kosar, and the free agent signing of receiver Andre Rison.

... The immortal Todd Philcox started and lost the next three games, before 30-year-old Vinny Testaverde came off the bench to beat the Saints to get the Browns to 6-6. Testaverde started the rest of the season and won one start as the Browns finished 7-9 after that terrific start.

Nobodys saying Belichick was wrong to move on from Kosar, but even Belichick has admitted in subsequent years that he didnt handle the transition correctly. Thats kind of a key piece of history left out of the documentary.

As for Rison, Browns owner Art Modell was so broke that he had to go around to area banks to borrow the $5 million signing bonus that was paid to Rison in 1995 on a five-year, $17 million contract that made him the highest-paid receiver in NFL history...

Belichick got to rewrite history and he's never had to account for his part in those drafts which all began with the infamous KYLE BRADY phone throwing tantrum-trade-down that you should know about but obviously you don't if you try to pin those drafts on Lombardi ESPECIALLY BB's first draft wtih the infamous phone-throwing incident.

... Belichick. He traded the 10th pick in 1995 ESPN reported Belichick was so incensed the Jets took tight end Kyle Brady ninth that he threw a phone against the wall for three picks in 95, and a first-round selection in 96. Linebacker Craig Powell and defensive end Mike Frederick were the first two 95 picks, and they washed out of the league quickly...

If Mike Lombardi was the one with goo-goo eyes for Kyle Brady (oh and lets not forget DT Warren Sapp was still sitting there when all of this was going on) then how come reports didn't surface about Mike Lombardi throwing-the-phone? How come Bil Belichick 'ALLEGEDLY' threw-the-phone against the wall?Actually Lombardi comes to BB's rescue and says it was an urban ledgend.

Also this particular source indicates that EVERY PICK was Belichicks.

My link

... Despite the legend that has grown up around his final draft with the Cleveland Browns, he insisted all week on at least this: He never threw the phone.

... In 1995, the story goes, Belichick was ready to take Penn State tight end Kyle Brady with the 10th pick, a selection many in the organization backed. But the New York Jets grabbed Brady out from under the Browns' noses, and what happened next has been the subject of some debate ever since.

According to both ESPN and published reports at the time, an enraged Belichick grabbed a phone and hurled it into the wall. According to Belichick and his drafting aide at the time, Mike Lombardi, nothing like that happened. According to others in Cleveland, it's gospel. Considering the way Brady's career turned out, he wasn't worth denting the phone anyway, but that's a separate issue.

"None of that was true," Lombardi insisted. "I'll take a lie detector test on that. Were we upset that he was taken right ahead of us? Yeah, but Bill wasn't really that crazy about Brady."

Belichick's story coincided with that of his former assistant. "Some people in the organization wanted Brady," he said. "How badly, I don't know."

What Belichick does know is what followed, which was his decision to trade out of the 10th slot all the way down to No. 30, where he selected an undersized Ohio State linebacker named Craig Powell, who did little in football after suffering a severe knee injury that summer and is no longer in the game.

Whom he could have taken at No. 10, however, is of more importance, because he could have taken someone who became one of the best defensive linemen in the NFL.

"One thing I learned from that draft, and I think Bill learned as well, was that we were not prepared to make the right decision on a certain player," recalled Lombardi, who now works in personnel with the Oakland Raiders.

"It was Warren Sapp. We'd lost James Jones to Denver and Michael Dean Perry, too, so we were looking for defensive linemen. If we were prepared and known if Sapp was a good or bad guy, we would have taken him and things would have been fine. But we didn't know, so we traded back and took Powell, who wasn't a very good pick.

In this game, you have to learn from your mistakes. There's no Draft Management 101 course. I know I learned from that case, and I believe Bill did too. That will not happen again to either of us. One thing about Bill, he analyzed every draft and studied our mistakes. He doesn't make the same mistake twice."

The mistake that day--putting the telephone aside--was that his organization lacked enough information on one player and gambled on another. During the five years Belichick was the Browns' head coach and general manager (1991-95), he drafted some good players but missed on what seems like more than the norm. What that bodes for the Patriots' future is impossible to determine. All that is sure is that Belichick had the final say Saturday, so the credit--not to mention the blame--will fall on him one way or the other.

In his first year of selecting, Belichick got a Pro Bowl player in safety Eric Turner, the second pick overall, and another productive one in the sixth round in wide receiver Michael Jackson, who twice led the Browns in receptions. He hit again in 1994 on Derrick Alexander, a receiver who remains the Chiefs' best pass catcher, and got some solid years out of center Steve Everitt, cornerback Antonio Langham (until he lost his confidence), linebacker Gerald Dixon, defensive linemen James Jones and Pio Sagapolutele, and a good season from Mike Frederick before being fired after the 1995 season.

But Belichick also had some spectacular misses, such as Powell, guard Ed King, defensive lineman Bill Johnson, and wide receiver Pat Rowe, all second- and third-round choices no longer in football. Several of those failures suffered serious injuries early in their careers, which is more a case of bad luck than bad analysis, but the most glaring deficiency in Belichick's Cleveland drafts came near the end of them.

I think most people believe that Bill Belichick learned from his early mistakes in Cleveland, not just his draft miscue's but other personell decisions.If Bill gets credit for being able to learn I'll extend the same courtesy to Lombardi.

Oh and I don't think Belichick has turned into a drafting guru. He got incredibly lucky with Tom Brady but other than that one incredible lucky pick his drafting history isn't spectacular but guess what?

NOBODY has a spectacular drafting history so I would guess Lombardi won't turn into a pefect picker. I just hope he's able to replicate nailing his top picks like Heckertt did and can hopefully find at least one great-late rounder like BB did with Brady.

How can you defend Lombardi when he himself admits he failed (to do his job re: Sapp)?

Dude, you're the one attacking and you are swinging wildly.If you answer the question of why Bill Belichick 'allegedly' threw the phone against the wall when TE Kyle Brady was taken a pick before the Browns and that ESPN wasn't reporting that Mike Lombardi threw a phone then how can you say that pick was Lombardi's?

You DON'T KNOW but it hasn't prevented you from attacking Lombardi.

How can you attack Lombardi when it is pretty obvious that Bill Belichick was the driving, and apparently highly emotional, force behind that pick?

How come Billy wasn't jumping up and down with tears of joy streaming down his face becaue DT Warren Sapp was still on the draft board?

Lombardi scouted for the team so he obviously has some blame, so there you go. You can attack and attack and attack him because he should have shoved Billy down and read him the riot act and gone to the mattress for Sapp but Lombardi was a young guy who had worked himself up into his position and Bill obviously had the juice, not Lombardi.

Oh and guess what?

Lombardi still doesn't have the juice with the current Browns, Joe Banner does. Lombardi doesn't even hold the title of GM.

My gosh at least get the right guy in your crosshairs and Lombardi wasn't the biggest target for Craig Powell it was BB and the guy who is the big Kahuna right now in the Browns front office isn't Lombardi, its Banner.

Lombardi is the guy behind putting out the scourting reports and he 'should' have the most influence but it is obvious the guy who hired the HC and the guy who hired Lombardi and the guy who has stated no-one has supreme power actually does by the mere fact he set that rule is thee guy.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Yeah they've got the system set up so that when they are looking for their next jobs they can all claim that 'player x' wasn't their pick if he's a bust. Honestly, love or hate Banner or Lombardi this nobody-takes-responsibility scheme is a mess.

 

[12punch]

Why does one guy have to take responsibility for a group effort that inevitably picks some busts without exception?

 

[MAC_32]

Yeah they've got the system set up so that when they are looking for their next jobs they can all claim that 'player x' wasn't their pick if he's a bust. Honestly, love or hate Banner or Lombardi this nobody-takes-responsibility scheme is a mess.

Fairly sure Banner is responsible, and that's been the plan all along.

 

[Steed]

Why does one guy have to take responsibility for a group effort that inevitably picks some busts without exception?

At the end of the day, a leader has to make a call. If he put bad people in place and they fed him bad info, ultimately that's his fault too.

 

[daveR]

Let me see if I follow the logic...

This guy has a blank resume because all his failures belong to someone else. Right?

That's why he deserves this job.

 

[MAC_32]

Let me see if I follow the logic...

This guy has a blank resume because all his failures belong to someone else. Right?

That's why he deserves this job.

Not even close.

 

[GregR]

...But I think the main objection to Lombardi is the behind the scenes stuff that fans don't know a lot about. Basically the word on Lombardi was that he was a power hungry guy who would backstab a lot of people and divide organizations so that he could rise to power. ...

Though we only get to see limited bits of people's personalities as analysts, something about what I've seen from Lombardi would leave me not surprised in the slightest if this was true.I can recall on several occasions that if debate on a topic got contentious, there was a feeling of vindictiveness I got from Lombardi. A vibe from him that he took things personally more than most would, and might be the kind to hold a grudge.Can't really say for sure, but again, doesn't surprise me to hear others say stuff like the above about him. Fits with that feeling I got for what he might be like.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Lombardi/Banner and gereranl update.

Adam Caplan from irius XM Radio stopped by the local grist mill and chipped in his

Lots of interesting tidbits here that give insight into all sorts of things including the Lombardi/Banner dynamic.

Here is the complete transcript.

My link

irius XM Radio's Adam Caplan...

Caplan had a lot of interesting things to say regarding the Browns' quarterback situation and which free agents could come in to compete with Brandon Weeden, how Joe Banner and Michael Lombardi have been viewed in the NFL and what they need to do to avoid turning into a disaster, and his thoughts on the hiring of Rob Chudzinski as head coach.

Rizzo: "You got our attention here in Cleveland tweeting last night about the possibility of the Browns bringing in a quarterback. We all agree here in Cleveland that the Browns haven't said anything good about Weeden in about four months. What do you know about the Browns possibly bringing in a free agent [for competition]?"

Caplan: "Well, as I reported back in November, Mike Lombardi was pulling the strings on personnel, he was advising Banner really on who he liked who he didn't like. And the guy he was bashing was Brandon Weeden, and this is not a secret -- everybody knew this one was or the other, it's just that I kind of knew exactly what he was looking at, and I knew that he wanted competition, and they're going to have competition at quarterback.

They are going to sign a veteran. The three names that I've thrown out there -- Chase Daniel of the Saints, Brian Hoyer of the Cardinals, and then, I think you've got to look at Alex Smith, who's going to be released if he's not traded. I think those would be the three names. Now, Alex Smith does not have the best arm, but he also played one year under Norv Turner with the 49ers, and talking to a couple of their executives at training camp over the years, they really thought Turner made some progress with Alex Smith. They are going to have a veteran. I also would not discount them drafting a quarterback. It would not shock me at all."

Rizzo: "Chase Daniel of the Saints? Gosh, I don't think I've seen him play ever."

Caplan: "He's a good player, he's had some really good preseasons. He has a good arm, they've really developed him. He's not real tall, he's 6 foot even, he was a good college quarterback at Missouri. As an undrafted free agent, he was be able to become Drew Brees' backup. Any time you're the backup for Sean Payton, that tells you the kid is really smart. If the Saints don't re-sign him, he's a guy who could compete for a starting job somewhere."

Rizzo: "Hoyer we know about, but what do you make of Alex Smith? He was 6-2-1 as a starter this year with a 104 QB rating when he lost his job to a guy who eventually took them to a Super Bowl. If he were to switch teams, what would you expect from Alex Smith?"

Caplan: "Well he's certainly not going to be back because they are not going to pay him the contract that he has to be a backup. He'll either be released or traded. I give him all the credit in the world with everything that's happened to him -- he'll turn 29 in May, he's been through a lot, had seven offensive coordinators in his career. At this point, he's playing his best ball. He played very well statistically before he got hurt and lost his job. He really did nothing to lose his job except that Colin Kaepernick has much better arm strength and athleticism.

I think if you put Alex Smith in an offense, I think he'd be better in the West Coast Offense. The 49ers' offense is West Coast terminology with the passing. Norv Turner's offense is power running with the passing. I think the thing that is not great for Alex Smith is the deeper passing. His arm got stronger as the years have progressed, but I think Brian Hoyer and Chase Daniels have stronger arms. Out of those three, let's put it this way: Alex Smith would cost the most probably out of those three, but I think the other two are better fits [for the Browns] due to their arm strength."

Rizzo: "Talk a little bit about Hoyer. He's been behind Tom Brady for a good chunk of his career. When he's played in the regular season, he hasn't overwhelmed people, but we knew Belichick always liked him. What did Bill see in him, and will he ever have the chance to start?"

Caplan: "Here's the thing you have to understand with Brian Hoyer -- first of all, as a rookie, and this is unprecedented, as an undrafted free agent in 2009, he beat out four quarterbacks to be Tom Brady's backup, and they only had two quarterbacks on the roster. That's how highly Belichick thought of him. I think Hoyer's a guy that really should've been drafted in the 4th or 5th round. He didn't get drafted, he's a local kid, went to Michigan State, but I think what they saw is because he was a restricted free agent, they looked at him and said, 'we're probably not going to keep him long-term,' so they drafted Ryan Mallett.

Mallett took Hoyer's job, and Hoyer bounced around and had a very good workout for the Cardinals. They signed him, and then he had to play. I watched the tape of his one start and it wasn't too bad. You know, off the bench in garbage time, he might not have looked good, but that doesn't mean anything. His preseason tape is pretty good from what I'm told. He's got decent size, 6'2, 220 lbs, is a smart kid, and turns 28 in October. I think he's the guy Lombardi would like because he comes from that Belichick tree. Remember, Lombardi has been consulting for the Patriots for a couple of years. I think this makes all the sense and it would not surprise me if they made a run for Hoyer."

Rizzo: "What about Mallet? We heard that Lombardi had him rated as a first rounder."

Caplan: "It's an interesting situation here, because when you look at the Patriots and what they are dealing with, right now, they signed Mike Kafka as their third-string quarterback. There is simply no way he'll be a starter ever for the Patriots. He doesn't have good enough arm strength, and he has issues with his mechanics with the way he throws the football. Kafka has gotten better, he's a former Eagle, a West Coast Offense type of quarterback.

Ryan Mallet would be a great fit for this system with the Browns because it's a Norv Turner system. Turner wants a dropback quarterback who can get rid of the football. Mallet can do that, he just doesn't have great feet. He's big and has got a real big arm. The Patriots, the reason they drafted Mallet is this: Brady turns 36 in August, and they figure by the time Mallet's in the final year of his contract, Brady will be 38 and they can consider looking at Mallet as his potential replacement. At worst, maybe they eventually trade him. And now, the question will be, who else will be interested in Mallet besides maybe the Browns? That ultimately would really determine his value."

Rizzo: "With Chudzinski, are you surprised by the hire? He didn't interview anywhere but Cleveland."

Caplan: "I think Chudzinski interviewed last year, but only with one team this year. As a playcaller, I thought he was a little inconsistent. I thought they got too in love with Cam Newton's arm as a passer this year. He got heavily criticized -- there's absolutely no question about this, I've talked to executives around the league who criticized him, but he's a guy who if he just gets back to what he did last year with Cam Newton, which was tremendous in 2011, [it'll be good]. The thing is he'll be more of a head coach now because Norv Turner will call the plays.

Chudzinski and Turner are going to gameplan, and then you've got Ray Horton who is an outstanding defensive coordinator. I love the staff they've put together. I think Chris Tabor's a good special teams coach. Chud's done a good job here, I think he set himself up well. Banner's great at crafting contracts, he's going to make sure they are in much better cap space. I think things are really looking up for the Browns."

Rizzo: "We're hearing Banner will have a lot more to do with player selection than he did in Philly."

Caplan: "Yeah, he will."

Rizzo: "People are concerned with that here in Cleveland."

Caplan: "Let me break down what's going to happen. First of all, with the Eagles, he did not have final say on personnel, but he had final say on contracts. Unfortunately, over the years, he nixed some players that the Eagles and Andy Reid wanted to sign because he could. He did design contracts and could say who they would sign or not sign by contract structure. So, he'll do the same with the Browns, PLUS, he's made it perfectly clear he's going to be way more involved in personnel. That to me is a major mistake.

Joe's clearly not qualified to be making personnel decisions. He doesn't know how to watch tape, I've talked to people who work with him and it's clearly not his strength. His strength is contractual, that's where he should stay. He hired Mike Lombardi to be his eyes and ears when it comes to personnel, that's fine, but when it comes down to free agency and the draft, he's got to be very careful here. It doesn't matter how great your coaching staff is if you don't sign and draft the right players.

Joe's got to be very careful here. As long as he does not make decisions on who they are going to sign, and he lets Chudzinski and his staff, and let Lombardi evaluate, and let those guys make decisions, this team will win and possibly win big. If Joe's ego gets in the way, there are going be problems."

Rizzo: "Now you made me nervous, Adam. The word we get is that Joe came here because the Eagles wouldn't let him do this, and he is dead set on proving he can get this done. He keeps talking about the coach having a lot, but we believe that Joe Banner will have the final say on everything and that he is running the draft."

Caplan: "Well, Joe couldn't...control that, that's a joke. He's not qualified for the draft. What he'll do is he'll be there, front and center, with Lombardi and Chudzinski, and they'll have what you can call a triangle of authority like the Vikings had. Unfortunately, the Vikings' triangle of authority blew up in their face.

It's funny, I'm actually a Banner supporter, but I know Joe's strengths and weaknesses. He's got to be very careful with how much influence he has on personnel selection. It's one thing to advise them, OK, here's what we know based on background and personality, and security checks and how much this guy should make, this is a guy we should sign, but he can't say, 'we don't like this guy, so we're not going to sign him.'"

Rizzo: "How much do you trust Mike Lombardi in that position?"

Caplan: "Mike, I've felt all along, there's another chance for him. I think Mike made his mistakes, it's not a secret that he's not the most liked guy in the NFL, but you know what, that doesn't matter -- what matters is his ability to evaluate personnel. He evaluates personnel the right way. And, he has to come in with an open mind. I think he can do a good job here. He's a smart guy, he really understands how to scout, he just has to be very careful -- he needs to keep his nose to the grindstone and just evaluate players and recommend the right ones and I think he'll do better."

Rizzo: "Do you expect Weeden to still be here, even if they get a guy like Daniel or Hoyer and he wins the job, will they keep Weeden around? And, do you think Weeden is a guy who could start in the NFL?"

Caplan: "Here's the thing, this is a dropback system [under Turner], and I think Weeden, who turns 30 this fall, actually fits fairly well in this. It's going to really come down to A) how do Chudzinski and Turner evaluate him, and then B) if Lombardi wants him out of there, even if those guys like him -- if he says 'forget it, we're just going to trade him,' then that's what's going to happen. I think that Lombardi and Banner have to listen to Turner and Chudzinski. They are the ones who are going to be coaching him, and whatever they want, they should get. And that's the bottom line, because they have to coach these guys."

Rizzo: "Great stuff Adam, we appreciate it. Are you hearing anything about the draft yet, I know it's a little early?"

Caplan: "Yeah, it's a little early, we haven't even gone to the Combine yet."

Rizzo: "[laughing] No, you're in Cleveland, it's never too early for the draft!"

Caplan: "[laughing] No, no, listen, you know, the only thing I can do right now is evaluating what teams need, and then as we get past the Combine, I start hearing who they might like. Always remember that free agency always dictates where players go in the draft. Free agency is first on March 12th."

----

 

[Donnybrook]

Browns bump VP to GM … Cleveland has named VP of Player Personnel Mike Lombardi the team's new General Manager. The Browns have also hired former Kansas City Director of Pro Personnel Ray Farmer as assistant G.M. Lombardi joined the Browns earlier this year after working for several years as an analyst with the NFL Network. Earlier in his career, Lombardi was an NFL executive with several teams including the Browns.

Came across this tidbit of information on http://www.gbnreport.com/

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Browns bump VP to GM … Cleveland has named VP of Player Personnel Mike Lombardi the team's new General Manager. The Browns have also hired former Kansas City Director of Pro Personnel Ray Farmer as assistant G.M. Lombardi joined the Browns earlier this year after working for several years as an analyst with the NFL Network. Earlier in his career, Lombardi was an NFL executive with several teams including the Browns.

Came across this tidbit of information on http://www.gbnreport.com/

The Browns wanted to hire Farmer and they couldn't without giving him a better position so they had to slot him below Lombardi so they gave Lombardi the title of GM just so they could create the Assistant GM title so they could hire Farmer.It was an NFL rule thingy that they had to get around.

Lombardi holds no more power even though the title sounds much more impressive than Director of Pro Personnel, his job has not changed in the least.

 

[Steed]

Gotta give Lombardi some credit. Using the leverage of having almost $50 mill in cap space, and all of his media connections, he's connected the Browns to every big name free agent out there. No one has a clue to their actual direction and he may even drive up the prices on the entire league while doing it.