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Military coup attempt in Turkey (1 Viewer)

SaintsInDome2006 said:
Apparently Kerry and Obama are taking criticism for taking time to oppose the coup. The US supported the 1980 coup and people have not forgotten either.

But it wasn't just the US, essentially all of the west / Europe held out too. Erdogan and Turk nationalists are not happy to say the least.
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Good. F those guys. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Apparently Kerry and Obama are taking criticism for taking time to oppose the coup. The US supported the 1980 coup and people have not forgotten either.

But it wasn't just the US, essentially all of the west / Europe held out too. Erdogan and Turk nationalists are not happy to say the least.
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Unhappy enough that they'll refuse our next monthly check? 

 
Fethullah Gulen: Powerful but reclusive Turkish cleric


Fethullah Gulen has been called Turkey's second most powerful man. He is also a recluse, who lives in self-imposed exile in the US.

An apparent power struggle between his followers and those around the Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has reached a new pitch of intensity and loathing.

Since arriving in the US in the late 1990s, Mr Gulen, 74, has not given a single broadcast interview. What rare communication there has been with the media has almost exclusively been conducted via email.

But now, the BBC has had exclusive access to the Muslim cleric. I travelled with Guney Yildiz from the BBC Turkish Service to a remote part of Pennsylvania to meet the man.

In the interview, Mr Gulen denied using his influence to start investigations into alleged corruption among senior members of Mr Erdogan's AK Party which have led to a number of police commissioners being sacked and to some of Mr Erdogan's allies being arrested.

...
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25885817

- Apparently the Gulenists are very pro-reform. Not just of islam and Turkey but also of Turkish government.

- Pretty important interview by the BBC here, Gulen hasn't been interviewed live for around 20 years.

- Erdogan wants him dead.

 
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Ziya Meral ‏@Ziya_Meral
Could unprecedented clashes with PKK, Russian jet incident, IS attacks be the main drive behind plotters to 'restore' order? 
...This coup attempt was not about secularism vs Islamism. Issue of Gulen mov and theories above my pay grade. But 'order' and 'saving' from + disorder, further violence, Syria, refugees, PKK etc could legitimately be the driver behind this attempt.
... But yes, them bombing Parliament, attacking MIT and Police brutally is a sign of political stand and intra-state tensions.
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
 


- Turkey filed its extradition request with the US the day of the coup.

- These Gulenists seem like the sort of moderate, progressive muslims we are always crying for.
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If he was indeed behind the coup, I am very tempted to say we send him. The moderate progressive type of Muslim that will try to overthrow an elected government through a show of force and open fire on an in session Parliament? Hmm...

 
Ilov80s said:
If he was indeed behind the coup, I am very tempted to say we send him. The moderate progressive type of Muslim that will try to overthrow an elected government through a show of force and open fire on an in session Parliament? Hmm...
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Yeah I don't know, I guess it depends on what the facts are. "Philadelphia" and "Pennsylvania" are being called the source of the plot by Erdogan and his loyalists. Is this guy a democrat who inspires modernism and reform, or is he a coup plotter? I don't know.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Yeah I don't know, I guess it depends on what the facts are. "Philadelphia" and "Pennsylvania" are being called the source of the plot by Erdogan and his loyalists. Is this guy a democrat who inspires modernism and reform, or is he a coup plotter? I don't know.
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Right, that line can be a matter on interpretation. It needs to be determined. 

 
Apparently there was a serious atrocity. People might have read or seen pictures of rebel tank soldiers surrendering on the Bosporus bridge. It was a seminal moment. - Well, apparently many of them, all privates by the sound of it, were beaten, had their throats slit and some were lynched and their bodies thrown off the bridge. Ugly, ugly, ugly scene.

 
Soroush ‏@Soroush1394 4h4 hours ago
Horrific pictures of Turkish soldiers being lynched on the Bosporus bridge, after they had surrendered. Rule of law not being implemented.
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- The links are largely too graphic to post.
 
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Ilov80s said:
If he was indeed behind the coup, I am very tempted to say we send him. The moderate progressive type of Muslim that will try to overthrow an elected government through a show of force and open fire on an in session Parliament? Hmm...
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No! The Turkish constitution specifically calls for a cuop if the government runs amok. If we give up Gulen, it's a slap in the face to the idea of a moderate Islam.

 
Jobber said:
No! The Turkish constitution specifically calls for a cuop if the government runs amok. If we give up Gulen, it's a slap in the face to the idea of a moderate Islam.
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I definitely don't know anything about the Turkish constitution. Just spitballing here as we all are. Just saying ordering military to fire on active parliament is a very questionable move. It needs a thorough investigation because there is a fine line between promoting democracy and treason sometimes. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Aykan Erdemir ‏@aykan_erdemir

Failed coup attempt in #Turkey - 41 police, 2 soldiers, 47 civilians, and 104 coup plotters died, 1,154 wounded, 1,563 soldiers arrested.
 
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I'm not sure I could believe this is a false flag, but these numbers seem to have been reported amazingly fast.  How is a government that just faced a coup attempt able to count 1,563 arrests and over a thousand dead or wounded in just a few hours?

 
lakerstan said:
I'm not sure I could believe this is a false flag, but these numbers seem to have been reported amazingly fast.  How is a government that just faced a coup attempt able to count 1,563 arrests and over a thousand dead or wounded in just a few hours?
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- I don't know. Those numbers were reported by the Dep. Chief of Staff. I think the government has moved into a new phase of purging and showing control, so who knows how much of that is accurate. They might be under-reporting casualties too.

 
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So, what I'm getting is that Erdogan was going to purge Gulen's supporters from the military, so they revolted (unknown whether Gulen had any influence on that decision). Erdogan has already placed many loyalists in the upper ranks of the military, ensuring the military won't stage a coup.

Erdogan is now using the failed attempt to tighten his grip on Turkey and drive Turkey toward a less democratic state. He will use the failure of the U.S. to extradite Gulen as a wedge driven between the U.S. and his regime.

That is likely to have negative repercussions for the U.S. and NATO.

Possible danger that another domino falls to radical Islam down the road.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Apparently there was a serious atrocity. People might have read or seen pictures of rebel tank soldiers surrendering on the Bosporus bridge. It was a seminal moment. - Well, apparently many of them, all privates by the sound of it, were beaten, had their throats slit and some were lynched and their bodies thrown off the bridge. Ugly, ugly, ugly scene.

 
- The links are largely too graphic to post.
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This is the direction Turkey is headed in under Erdogan. Lovely.

 
Everything you guys write about Erdogan is correct. He is an evil man. He wants to make Turkey more Islamist. And this event will make him even more powerful. And this might make ISIS more powerful since perhaps we can't count on Turkey as an ally. 

And yet apparently we have to support Erdogan because he's better than the alternative which is a Turkey in chaos. And the Turkish public certainly appears to support him which we have to take into account. 

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this, though it probably shouldn't be a surprise, is that the Turkish people seem okay, and perhaps even attracted, by a dictator who is going to give them a more Islamic regime. 

 
Jobber said:
No! The Turkish constitution specifically calls for a cuop if the government runs amok. If we give up Gulen, it's a slap in the face to the idea of a moderate Islam.
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No, it doesn't. The Army views this as its rightful role to protect secularism in the tradition of Ataturk but it is not sanctioned by their constitution.

 
timschochet said:
Everything you guys write about Erdogan is correct. He is an evil man. He wants to make Turkey more Islamist. And this event will make him even more powerful. And this might make ISIS more powerful since perhaps we can't count on Turkey as an ally. 

And yet apparently we have to support Erdogan because he's better than the alternative which is a Turkey in chaos. And the Turkish public certainly appears to support him which we have to take into account. 

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this, though it probably shouldn't be a surprise, is that the Turkish people seem okay, and perhaps even attracted, by a dictator who is going to give them a more Islamic regime. 
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Do you enjoy reading the columns of David Brooks?   Just curious.  Seems like you would enjoy him.

 
bueno said:
So, what I'm getting is that Erdogan was going to purge Gulen's supporters from the military, so they revolted (unknown whether Gulen had any influence on that decision). Erdogan has already placed many loyalists in the upper ranks of the military, ensuring the military won't stage a coup.

Erdogan is now using the failed attempt to tighten his grip on Turkey and drive Turkey toward a less democratic state. He will use the failure of the U.S. to extradite Gulen as a wedge driven between the U.S. and his regime.

That is likely to have negative repercussions for the U.S. and NATO.

Possible danger that another domino falls to radical Islam down the road.
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Seems spot on.

Turkey is doomed.  Country will be either Syria or Iran within a decade.

 
timschochet said:
Everything you guys write about Erdogan is correct. He is an evil man. He wants to make Turkey more Islamist. And this event will make him even more powerful. And this might make ISIS more powerful since perhaps we can't count on Turkey as an ally. 

And yet apparently we have to support Erdogan because he's better than the alternative which is a Turkey in chaos. And the Turkish public certainly appears to support him which we have to take into account. 

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this, though it probably shouldn't be a surprise, is that the Turkish people seem okay, and perhaps even attracted, by a dictator who is going to give them a more Islamic regime. 
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Sure wish Hillary had your foresight... :kicksrock:

 
If my analysis is correct, there is nothing we can do, one way or the other. Erdogan is going to make us look like a bad guy whether we hand over Gulen or not. He is going to continue to take Turkey down the Islamic path - away from democracy - apparently with the support of the people.

Best thing we can do right now is pull any nukes we have out of Turkey.

I wouldn't give up Gulen. Maybe down the road he can return triumphant when/if Erdogan fails.

 
Gary Coal Man said:
Probably the military.

This is from an article about the history of Turkish coups:  "Kenan Evren, the former Turkish president now facing charges in an Ankara court, is only the most recent in a long line of military officers to seize power in a coup.The military has long seen itself as the "guardian of Turkish democracy," which it defines as the staunchly secular state created by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the modern Turkish republic."

There has been a lot written in recent years of Erdogan wanting to roll back some of that secularism in favor of a more religious state.
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RedmondLonghorn said:
If I am choosing between backing Erdogan or the Turkish military, I will take the latter.

There is a realistic hope that they just want to undo the anti-democratic actions Erdogan has taken. Whereas Erdogan just wants to consolidate power and imprison (or worse) anybody who criticizes him.
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Interesting because when Gary Johnson was on the Joe Rogan podcast a short time ago, he suggested that the best political system might be to have democratically-elected presidents for a 16-year cycle, then a benevolent dictator for 2 years in order to adjust and right any of the wrongs that they caused.  Kind of sounds like it here.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Interesting because when Gary Johnson was on the Joe Rogan podcast a short time ago, he suggested that the best political system might be to have democratically-elected presidents for a 16-year cycle, then a benevolent dictator for 2 years in order to adjust and right any of the wrongs that they caused.  Kind of sounds like it here.
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I like Johnson, but this is wacky theoretical baloney. 

 
Jobber said:
A very active international forum, with many Turks posting updates. You get a better feel for the situation, and more information than can be had from here or CNN.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1247184&page=114
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Thanks for this link - very interesting.

This post was of some relief regarding our nukes there: http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=210186261

Side note - has anyone made of chart of who the correspondiny posters in that thresd are to the FBG board eg who is Tom who is Saints who is Em who is Yankee etc...?

-QG

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Do you enjoy reading the columns of David Brooks?   Just curious.  Seems like you would enjoy him.
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Very much so. Thomas Freidman too. Fareed Zakeria...I like thoughtful people. One the many aspects that I despise about Trump's campaign is this return to anti-intellectualism. For the life of me I don't understand why people are so attracted to that. 

 
timschochet said:
Very much so. Thomas Freidman too. Fareed Zakeria...I like thoughtful people. One the many aspects that I despise about Trump's campaign is this return to anti-intellectualism. For the life of me I don't understand why people are so attracted to that. 
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People like simple answers and hate nuance. Plus, most people are pretty dumb. HTH.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Apparently there was a serious atrocity. People might have read or seen pictures of rebel tank soldiers surrendering on the Bosporus bridge. It was a seminal moment. - Well, apparently many of them, all privates by the sound of it, were beaten, had their throats slit and some were lynched and their bodies thrown off the bridge. Ugly, ugly, ugly scene.

 
- The links are largely too graphic to post.
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Nice people

 
timschochet said:
Very much so. Thomas Freidman too. Fareed Zakeria...I like thoughtful people. One the many aspects that I despise about Trump's campaign is this return to anti-intellectualism. For the life of me I don't understand why people are so attracted to that. 
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Interesting.  I like Zakaria a lot too.  Friedman sometimes.  Brooks is good for gauging what the mushy middle is thinking at any given moment.

Thx Tim.

 
timschochet said:
Very much so. Thomas Freidman too. Fareed Zakeria...I like thoughtful people. One the many aspects that I despise about Trump's campaign is this return to anti-intellectualism. For the life of me I don't understand why people are so attracted to that. 
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It's a crazy phenomena. Trump is also very anti elitist despite spending his entire life selling himself as the most elite person on the planet. 

 
Ilov80s said:
It's a crazy phenomena. Trump is also very anti elitist despite spending his entire life selling himself as the most elite person on the planet. 
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He doesn't talk like an elite though. The words he uses and ideas he expresses are very relatable to a truck driver from Queens or a West Virginia coal miner. Or to a 4th grader.

 
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timschochet said:
Very much so. Thomas Freidman too. Fareed Zakeria...I like thoughtful people. One the many aspects that I despise about Trump's campaign is this return to anti-intellectualism. For the life of me I don't understand why people are so attracted to that. 
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I don't think they are attracted to anti-intellectualism. I think they are turned off by people who act like they know more than everyone else. I can see why you don't understand that though. 

 
bueno said:
This is what we get for dumbing down America!
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I don't think we have dumbed down America. Coal miners and truck drivers are probably better educated now than ever before. They just are still coal miners and truck drivers and what it means to be a blue collar working class American hasn't changed all that much. 

 
Ilov80s said:
I don't think we have dumbed down America. Coal miners and truck drivers are probably better educated now than ever before. They just are still coal miners and truck drivers and what it means to be a blue collar working class American hasn't changed all that much. 
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Yeah, we have. Coal miners and truck drivers being better educated is a pretty low bar. And what it means to be a blue collar worker in America has changed - it means a smaller piece of the pie, or, too often, unemployment. You have have noticed how hostile the Democrats are to the coal mining industry?

 
Politician Spock said:
I don't think they are attracted to anti-intellectualism. I think they are turned off by people who act like they know more than everyone else. I can see why you don't understand that though. 
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While I think your second point has merit, I think you are wrong about the bolded.

It is clear that a significant segment of the population is anti-intellectual. I can think of a half dozen reasons why and there is probably some overlap among those reasons, but I think it is a very real phenomenon. 

And I wouldn't say it is exclusive to GOP voters either, though it probably is a larger proportion of the GOP's base than of the Democrats'. 

 
bueno said:
This is what we get for dumbing down America!
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Exactly.  We voted for Bush twice, Obama twice, and now are looking at Trump or Hillary.  The dumbing down stretches across all of america, all parties, classes, races, etc. etc.  Yet, the dummies keep voting and will drag their asses to the polls again in November to vote for one of those two.  

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
While I think your second point has merit, I think you are wrong about the bolded.

It is clear that a significant segment of the population is anti-intellectual. I can think of a half dozen reasons why and there is probably some overlap among those reasons, but I think it is a very real phenomenon. 

And I wouldn't say it is exclusive to GOP voters either, though it probably is a larger proportion of the GOP's base than of the Democrats'. 
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I dunno. When I was active in politics, I noted a trend that Democrats had more straight ticket voters than Republicans. That doesn't exactly show a lot of intellectualism. 

 
Ilov80s said:
what it means to be a blue collar working class American hasn't changed all that much. 
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I think it has. Wage growth for those with marginal skills has been stagnant for a long time. And unemployment for the less educated remains a huge issue. 

And all of the virtual money printing the Fed has been doing for the last decade or so has had the effect of inflating the value of financial assets, which has a negative relative impact on the working class versus those with more means. And it can actually have a negative absolute impact too, on things like rent.

 
bueno said:
I dunno. When I was active in politics, I noted a trend that Democrats had more straight ticket voters than Republicans. That doesn't exactly show a lot of intellectualism. 
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I was explicit in pointing out that it cuts across both parties. My opinion is that it may make up a bigger proportion of the GOP base. 

 
Ilov80s said:
I don't think we have dumbed down America. Coal miners and truck drivers are probably better educated now than ever before. They just are still coal miners and truck drivers and what it means to be a blue collar working class American hasn't changed all that much. 
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This is what has changed.  Most of America did not used to thumb their noses at Blue Collar workers.  It used to be an honorable way to make a living.  Now its "they're still coal miners and truck drivers" as if that is a bad thing.

 
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