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Minnesota Vikings Team Thread (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Heatman
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Better at 3 of 5 spots, at least 1 of which by a huge margin, and not worse anywhere, is draw at best?
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Herb
Footballguy
I was all over this upthread. Then I heard Greg Cosell this morning on PA's show. I trust this guy's opinion implicitly, he's a film guru. He does not like Lamar Jackson. Career 56% passer in college, which I did not realize. I'm out on him. If you can't break 60% in college, you're never going to be an elite pro. Accuracy in college is the single biggest predictor of pro success. Maybe if the Vikes could land him in the 3rd round I'd be OK with it but he'll be long gone by then.I'm driving the Lamar Jackson to the Vikings train. Who wants on?
Also read today that the Broncos are all in on Cousins, will do whatever it takes to get him. No way I want MN to pay this guy $30M+ per season with $90M guaranteed, which is what it may require. I'm back to thinking the best move is to retain 2 of the 3 guys they had last year for around $24M per year combined (leaning to Bridgewater/ Bradford, as risky as that is), and buttress the rest of the team. Draft another QB at some point, but I don't know who, as I don't follow NCAA FB nearly as much as I used to.
Herb
Footballguy
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
41 sacks given up by Washington and 27 by Minn.
Almost 2000 yards rushing for the Vikes and 1448 by the skins - No, I don't call that "much" better.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Normally I'd agree. But there's two factors that mitigate this a bit. He improved his percentage each year and he had an inordinate number of drops.
Whether that second part had something to do with ball placement, I don't know.
Minnesota was much better at every single skill position last year. Washington's line with the Vikings skill position guys, probably would have been a top-5 offense.
The offensive line for the skins last year was dinged up a bit so not sure it’s a good comparison without that context as the vikes o-line was relatively healthy in comparison.
Here is a link that details out how each of the players performed. Not sure how reliable but gives a good feel for how they performed from a homers perspective. YMMV
https://riggosrag.com/2018/01/12/grading-the-washington-redskins-offensive-linemen-in-2017/amp/14/
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
BigJim®
Footballguy
I think you should just accept your opinions are pretty subjective and not go down swinging on everything. Saying things like Cousins can't bring Washington stats with him... what's the implication here... proven ability to be productive vanishes when a player changes teams? Mystifying. Saying 41 sack is more attributable to Cousins than a 'better than Minnesota' Redskins OL? Let's just deal with the low hanging fruit here... the Redskins OL was in shambles in 2017. There were significant early season injuries, and midseason weeks where 4 of 5 OL starters did not even practice. Scherff gave it a go, but had an MCL sprain much of the season. Trent Williams knew he would need knee surgery after a week 5 injury, and only made it to week 10 before calling it. Lauvao played with a stinger for several weeks before going on IR week 11. Roullier began the season as a back-up, replaced an injured Long, and then himself became injured and missed 3 games. To not acknowledge (or worse, perhaps not even know) that in putting together a supporting <=> comparisons in support of a "gee if Cousins got sacked 41 times behind this awesome line..." stance... Well, it puts either your basic NFL knowledge or your credibility in question. I mean c'mon. I thought you were well intended, but you're just here to yank chains, right?
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Yeah Carr looked really good in his second season then not so good last season. Somewhat similar to Mariota and Winston who also took steps backwards. Wentz played great before he was injured.
As you point out though those players are not available. A good QB should not be available in free agency, it is pretty rare for a good QB like Cousins to even be an option. I do think Cousins is the best option available and better than the other options, including Tyrod Taylor who is also available.
I agree with you that what he did last season was still impressive under the circumstances of their offensive line having so many injuries along with receivers not getting open quickly enough for him. If Reed had been healthy for example Cousins may not have taken as many sacks and perhaps produced more overall yardage and points. Their top WR Pryor ended up getting benched for not playing well enough, Crowder didn't really step up and they turned to Josh Doctson who is a nice player but was essentially a rookie last year.
For me it is more about how consistently good Cousins has been for several years now compared to all of the other QBs that puts him at least in the top 10 QB in my view if you include Brady and Brees and pushing for top 5 QB in the league if you take out these older HOF players who obviously are not available.
I listened to Paul and Charch talk to Scheftler. Scheftler seemed to think that the Vikings may be offering Cousins the lowest contract compared to the Jets and the Browns. He mentioned hypothetical numbers of the Jets and Browns offering Cousins $26 million a year and the Vikings perhaps only offering $23 million a year. That it will come down to Cousins deciding to tell his agent which of the deals he wants to pursue.
I am not sure if Schefter is right about that, but it does make a certain amount of sense that Cousins may take a lower offer from the Vikings if he really wants to play for a team ready to contend for a title now. If the money is more important then Cousins will sign with the Jets I think.
Not yanking chains, but I agree I've made my opinion on Cousins well known, and will stop
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I already covered this in previous post.
Washington had injures across their offensive line last season and Cousins was sacked on 7.1% of his pass attempts last season. In 2016 he was sacked 23 times on 606 pass attempts, 3.7% of the time. In 2015 he was sacked 26 times on 543 pass attempts or 4.6% of the time.
Case Keenum was sacked 22 times on 481 pass attempts with the Vikings last year which is 4.4% of the time.
Cousins aside from last season where there were a lot of issues with the Redskins offensive line as well as their skill players has been sacked at a similar or lower rate than Keenums best season if you take the time to look at more than last year.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Yeah well if they free up that much cash then they will be in the same position as the Vikings are without Shariff Floyd off the books yet.
BTW I have heard the Vikings haven't paid Floyd in full yet and that there is a dispute between the Vikings and Floyd about this that needs to be resolved by the NFLPA before he will come off the books. Some sort of injury settlement has to be agreed on.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
It would very interesting if Defillpo, the former QB coach, took the Viking OC job not because they had all these intriguing opinions in free agency but because they already had signed the QB he wants to develop.
I remember that most members of the media thought it was inconceivable that the Broncos would let Brock Osweiler walk in free agency and go into the draft with only Trevor Siemians on the roster. After the draft, the story was Siemans was just holding the position for Paxton Lynch. It didn't look like the Trevor Siemians experiment work out for the Broncos but I thought it was intriguing how most members of the media dismissed Siemians from day one as ever a potential starter.
It is probably not the case, but I just like the thought that Defillpo has the cajones to drive up the price for Cousins, Bradford, Case and Bridgewater knowing that he doesn't mind entering the season with Sloter as his possible number one. I will admit it is little different than going with just Wentz in year one but not all that much. It would be most intriguing if the Vikings game was to bluff agents and reporters with the ultimate goal was not to get Cousins under contract.
By the way, anyone have any idea how Kyle Sloter would grade out vs the prospects in this draft class?
I remember that most members of the media thought it was inconceivable that the Broncos would let Brock Osweiler walk in free agency and go into the draft with only Trevor Siemians on the roster. After the draft, the story was Siemans was just holding the position for Paxton Lynch. It didn't look like the Trevor Siemians experiment work out for the Broncos but I thought it was intriguing how most members of the media dismissed Siemians from day one as ever a potential starter.
It is probably not the case, but I just like the thought that Defillpo has the cajones to drive up the price for Cousins, Bradford, Case and Bridgewater knowing that he doesn't mind entering the season with Sloter as his possible number one. I will admit it is little different than going with just Wentz in year one but not all that much. It would be most intriguing if the Vikings game was to bluff agents and reporters with the ultimate goal was not to get Cousins under contract.
By the way, anyone have any idea how Kyle Sloter would grade out vs the prospects in this draft class?
BigJim®
Footballguy
It's interesting, maybe, but my take on Zimmer/Spielman quotes last week were aimed to remind other teams of warts on all of the departing Viking QBs - to keep their cost low, as back-up plans. Particularly Zimmer's quotes.
I do like what I saw of Sloter... but he's still a totally unproven commodity who had 1 season as a starter at a lower level college (Northern Colorado). Hopefully prior follies have taught Spielman that there should both a proven QB and a prospect being groomed. They don't have to be the same guy, and probably should not be.
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
BigJim®
Footballguy
skol asylum
Footballguy
http://www.totalfootballstats.com/PlayerQB.asp?id=1228
Check out those college completion percentage stats.
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Herb
Footballguy
Huh. Well, maybe a guy with subpar completion % in college can, on occasion, turn into an ok pro QB.
But to be gair, the game is a bit different now than it was nearly 30 years ago.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
You cant say this though.
Because a QB like him almost never hits free agency. Then look at the money Garoppolo just got. Then look at 10 million more dollars of cap space just added.
He is worth more money because the removal of a ton of risks and unknowns and the absolute
This is an anomaly.
sports_fan
Footballguy
mr roboto
Footballguy
Getting away from the QB talk, I think Josh Sitton would be a great target. Guard has been a weak point seemingly since Hutchinson left, and Sitton is still among the NFL's best. Still can't believe the Bears, or Packers for that matter, cut him. Green Bay still hasn't recovered. Even better if they can keep Berger as well.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
If I was the GM for the Vikings I would see what I could get for Trae Waynes. He not worth signing long term and I would be looking to improve at the position in free agency and the draft.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Waynes showed a lot of improvement last season. Even Zimmer was commenting about not giving him as much help now as he used to.
He failed to make some plays in the playoffs no doubt, but so did a lot of members of the defense at the end.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Oh My Guard! Vikings Have Needs Other Than Quarterback
Good news if Berger is coming back. Will be interesting to see what happens there, if the Vikings re-sign him or not. He has played well and arguably the Vikings best lineman the last 3 years, although perhaps Reiff had a better season than Berger last year. He still played pretty well. I hope the Vikings bring him back for another season.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
ESPN suggests alternative fix to Vikings quarterback problem
Brilliant! 1st and 2nd round picks for Phillip Rivers.
Brilliant! 1st and 2nd round picks for Phillip Rivers.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
ESPN suggests alternative fix to Vikings quarterback problem
Brilliant! 1st and 2nd round picks for Phillip Rivers.
Heatman
Footballguy
Exactly, who wants to spen a 1 and 2 on a two tear rental. If they are going to trade a 1 and 2 tgen they should inquire about Russell Wilson since seattle seems to be in a complete rebuild.
Might as well inquire about Leveon Bell and Antonio Brown for a 3 and a 4 while they're at. They'd be unstoppable!
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Why are these teams willing to give up their qbs? They aren’t. They’re good qbs, which are hard to find.
There is no slight of hand and defillipo probably isn’t enamored with whatever scrub they have at qb4.
I don’t get the cousins hate. Minnesota has a formidable roster, needs a qb, and has plenty of cap space. I’m pretty sure Kirk has made plenty of money, and wants to win, so I don’t think he’s chasing the biggest contract. I’m an MSU guy, if you know the person behind the face mask you probably agree with that take, although it’s based on feeling rather than quotes or facts. I’m curious why more players don’t try to get a smaller guaranteed contract, what’s the point of signing a $150millio/5 yrcontract if you make most of the money at the end and are likely to be asked to restructure or get cut. That could be a sticking point for him as well- who will guarantee my contract? It may not be about the money but if you’re the #1 fa teams want why not get the contract built the way you want, while still giving teams an out after 3 yrs. The guy just wants someone to believe in him enough to keep him around- and the team could still use the tag on him if he were to reach the end of that contract.
I don’t know what min has coming in terms of future contracts or what their cap will look like in the next 3 years, but with the cap likely to increase greatly when the new tv contracts come up I think it will be easy to manuever through cousins’ contract.
There is no slight of hand and defillipo probably isn’t enamored with whatever scrub they have at qb4.
I don’t get the cousins hate. Minnesota has a formidable roster, needs a qb, and has plenty of cap space. I’m pretty sure Kirk has made plenty of money, and wants to win, so I don’t think he’s chasing the biggest contract. I’m an MSU guy, if you know the person behind the face mask you probably agree with that take, although it’s based on feeling rather than quotes or facts. I’m curious why more players don’t try to get a smaller guaranteed contract, what’s the point of signing a $150millio/5 yrcontract if you make most of the money at the end and are likely to be asked to restructure or get cut. That could be a sticking point for him as well- who will guarantee my contract? It may not be about the money but if you’re the #1 fa teams want why not get the contract built the way you want, while still giving teams an out after 3 yrs. The guy just wants someone to believe in him enough to keep him around- and the team could still use the tag on him if he were to reach the end of that contract.
I don’t know what min has coming in terms of future contracts or what their cap will look like in the next 3 years, but with the cap likely to increase greatly when the new tv contracts come up I think it will be easy to manuever through cousins’ contract.
I don't think it's hate, just some thinking that they don't want to overpay for a non-elite QB. While maybe the cap won't be an issue, it would impact which other elite players they could sign and also could possibly impact the chemistry of the team. For me - and I'm not a Vikings fan - I think Cousins is worth going after, but I would set a fair price and stick to it and not back the truck up.
snogger
Footballguy
.. I think Cousins could be a very good QB for the Vikings... Then again, so was Case and Bradford before he got injured yet again.Some of us are just questioning whether paying the rumors of $30 million/year Guaranteed is worth it, knowing that there are other areas that need to be shored up and future contracts to think of for other players..
Heatman
Footballguy
Kind of my point. If you are going to inquire about a QB who is not abailable (Rivers) and offer your 1 and 2 you might as well go big.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Yeah sure but they have set themselves up nicely for the next few years already. They’ll have a shot, but good teams that make playoff runs lose players, it’s the nature of the game. But losing 30mil a year for the qb spot is something they can absorb imo. Besides, what’s keenum going to command on the open market? If Glennon gets $16mil as an unproven backup, Case should be getting $20. And we don’t know that it’s going to cost $30mil a year, but I bet that got a lot of clicks. Is that number speculated because the jets or browns could make that offer or is their a source within Minnesota that says they’re willing to offer that?
snogger
Footballguy
Everything at this point is "just rumors".. But when multiple reports come out, from many different outlets, over multiple weeks that Denver and the Jets are "rumored" to be looking to offer Cousin $30M/Year when FA opens then.... well....
If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, it is probably a duck.
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Typical espn drivel....the chargers wouldnt do it...believe it or not they are close to contedningESPN suggests alternative fix to Vikings quarterback problem
Brilliant! 1st and 2nd round picks for Phillip Rivers.
skol asylum
Footballguy
Or you're hearing his agent with a duck call.Everything at this point is "just rumors".. But when multiple reports come out, from many different outlets, over multiple weeks that Denver and the Jets are "rumored" to be looking to offer Cousin $30M/Year when FA opens then.... well....
If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, it is probably a duck.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Report: Vikings to Re-sign Two of Three Exclusive Rights Free Agents
Anthony Harris and Mack Brown were signed to one year deals.
Vikings won't place RFA tender on Jeremiah Sirles
Sirles was useful because he can play guard and tackle. I guess not well enough in the Vikings view however based on him being benched for Remmers at left guard late last season. According to Sirles agent the Vikings are still interested in signing Sirles to a new deal, but I guess not at the RFA price tag?
Nick Easton is also a RFA but I have not heard anything about the Vikings signing him yet, maybe soon.
Anthony Harris and Mack Brown were signed to one year deals.
Vikings won't place RFA tender on Jeremiah Sirles
Sirles was useful because he can play guard and tackle. I guess not well enough in the Vikings view however based on him being benched for Remmers at left guard late last season. According to Sirles agent the Vikings are still interested in signing Sirles to a new deal, but I guess not at the RFA price tag?
Nick Easton is also a RFA but I have not heard anything about the Vikings signing him yet, maybe soon.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Only looking at the salary... I dont see the difference in paying 30 million a year or paying 24 million a year and having to lose the contracts of a 1st and 2nd round players. (Im not even talking about the talent hit of those picks, just the finances). Because those picks are rookie contracts that will save you an easy 5+ million per year of a non-rookie contract of comparable talent. And that is what you would have to lose in order to acquire a player like Cousins all-things-considered. In truth, Id rather bundle all the salary on a player with several years of NFL history, film and knowledge while still taking the 2 rookie picks with all their risks.snogger said:
Some of us are just questioning whether paying the rumors of $30 million/year Guaranteed is worth it, knowing that there are other areas that need to be shored up and future contracts to think of for other players..
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Plus the guy was thinking of retiring because he didn’t want to commute from SD to LA or uproot his family. I’m sure he’d love going to Minnesota.Biabreakable said:ESPN suggests alternative fix to Vikings quarterback problem
Brilliant! 1st and 2nd round picks for Phillip Rivers.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Charch killing it today on KFAN giving Cousins statistics over the first 3 years he's started:
* Averaging 275 YPG, 4th in NFL over that span. Closest Viking to come close to that was Warren Moon at something like 250 YPG. Favre? 231.
* 8th in passing TDs, 4th in rushing TDs
* Completion % is 3rd in NFL. Only behind Brees/Bradford
* 4th in pass yards per attempt, particularly impressive given his completion %.
* 41 1st downs rushing
* If the Redskins had a league average defense PPG (16th in NFL) over Cousins 3 seasons, their win totals would be 13, 13, 13.
* Ponders the question: If you have Bridgewater, Keenum or Bradford at QB heading into 2018, how confident are you that the Vikes have their starting QB solved 2 years from now?
* Averaging 275 YPG, 4th in NFL over that span. Closest Viking to come close to that was Warren Moon at something like 250 YPG. Favre? 231.
* 8th in passing TDs, 4th in rushing TDs
* Completion % is 3rd in NFL. Only behind Brees/Bradford
* 4th in pass yards per attempt, particularly impressive given his completion %.
* 41 1st downs rushing
* If the Redskins had a league average defense PPG (16th in NFL) over Cousins 3 seasons, their win totals would be 13, 13, 13.
* Ponders the question: If you have Bridgewater, Keenum or Bradford at QB heading into 2018, how confident are you that the Vikes have their starting QB solved 2 years from now?
BigJim®
Footballguy
I looked up Brees stats (after he became starter) and it's sort of interesting to compare vs. Cousins first 3 seasons.
* Did not exceed 4000 yards until his 5th season
* Did not exceed 27 TDs passing until his 7th season.
* Did not exceed 67% completion % (Cousins average) until 8th season
* Did not exceed 4000 yards until his 5th season
* Did not exceed 27 TDs passing until his 7th season.
* Did not exceed 67% completion % (Cousins average) until 8th season
BigJim®
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
If it is $27 million a year that is 15% of the 2018 salary cap and that percentage shrinks each season as the cap continues to go up.
This is only 1% more than what the Vikings paid their QBs last season.
They still may bring in a back up too, so that would add to the total percentage allocated to the QB position, but as of now if that price is true, it is very managable.
This is only 1% more than what the Vikings paid their QBs last season.
They still may bring in a back up too, so that would add to the total percentage allocated to the QB position, but as of now if that price is true, it is very managable.
skol asylum
Footballguy
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Donnybrook
Footballguy
He let Torry Smith run right by him.
I would try and sign Malcolm Butler or see if I could get DRC from the Giants. I can't believe LA got Marcus Peters for a 6th. Some unexpected CB talent on the market. Vikings should to go after one.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
27 million a season and a good chance will end up on IR because the protection is still not very good.BigJim® said:
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