skol asylum
Footballguy
I defended Zimmer for a long time but I'm finally on the change wagon. Still afraid we wind up in a multi year coaching carousel of losers though. Seen it happen way too many times.
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Minnesota Vikings Team Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Heatman
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simsarge
Footballguy
Yep. Unless you think you can land a prospective game changer (Bieniemy? Leftwich? Brady? McDaniels?), you're not doing anything to right a ship that's tilting off center rather than sinking
snogger
Footballguy
I'd think any assistant coach out there would Love to take the job.
The offense is there to rack up 30+ points a game with the right offensive coaching.. Cook, Jefferson, Theilen, Ham, Osborn is growing, Kirk. OL needs work, but they are better now than they were to start the season.
Defense line is pretty good, the CB and safeties need a lot of work.. But the talent is there to make a run, especially on Offense.
The offense is there to rack up 30+ points a game with the right offensive coaching.. Cook, Jefferson, Theilen, Ham, Osborn is growing, Kirk. OL needs work, but they are better now than they were to start the season.
Defense line is pretty good, the CB and safeties need a lot of work.. But the talent is there to make a run, especially on Offense.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I haven't made up my mind about this at all and you may be right that wholesale changes are needed.BigJim® said:
I am not sure if the scouting department has improved or gotten worse since Studwell stepped down or not. There have definitely been a lot of missed picks although there have been some hits. Its been average in the context of the rest of the league.
The only thing I do like about what Rick Spielman has done has been his ability to trade picks and from my perspective generate value in this way. Any advantage gained through that has not manifested itself however because they haven't hit on more of their picks than other teams have despite generally having more picks to work with.
snogger
Footballguy
Yea, this should be fun.. Mannion has played in 3 games.. 126 yards, no TD's and 2 picks for a whooping 35.1 Rating..
Really, at his size ( 6'6" and 230 lbs), they should just go "Old School" and when I say Old school I mean Ooooooooooooooollllddddddddd school.
Run and run some more.. Maybe have a screen pass or two, but basically have him, Cook and Ham run all day.. Don't get a first down
at least no Int's..
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FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I would consider going to the NFC championship game during the past five years as being in some contention during this time but I do see your point.
I would blame the GM for hiring relatives of everyone within the coaching ranks - I was looking more at the selection of players, but it is definitely his fault for hiring what I would consider unqualified candidates as coordinators and coaches. Like I said, it wouldn't bother me one bit to see Spielman go - more from his hiring of coaches than players that he has selected.
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FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I hope they have some Mond packages in place for this weekend - some RPO stuff just to see what it looks like...not expecting it from this coaching staff but would be the perfect time to try it out.
I couldn't believe Collingsworth praising Mannion after the first couple drives saying he is showing he can play. I really wondered what game he was watching because Mannion couldn't do anything. Looked like a stiff tin man running around. Terrible. I knew in one drive that this game was over because there was zero creativity to try and mix something up to have a shot. That was a game where the coaches needed to throw something totally unexpected at the pukers to have any chance and just hope bounces went the Vikes way. Instead they dumbed the offense down and took no chances and got steam rolled. Terrible coachingIf last night wasn't an indication to the Wilf's that it time to fire the entire Coaching staff, I don't know what will.
No Kirk Cousin's???
That's OK, we have this guy that has only been in 3 NFL Games, keep the playbook the same and we will do just fine
BigJim®
Footballguy
No viable back-up better than Mannion is on the coaching staff?If last night wasn't an indication to the Wilf's that it time to fire the entire Coaching staff, I don't know what will.
No Kirk Cousin's???
That's OK, we have this guy that has only been in 3 NFL Games, keep the playbook the same and we will do just fine
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
If they can't get Mond to look better than what Mannion looked like, then it is 100% on the coaching staff!!
BigJim®
Footballguy
That's one possibility. I've been down the rabbit hole too many times debating superstars TJack/Ponder with fellow Viking fans. I'm not going to debate what Mond is actually capable of based on one series in horrible circumstances. I do think presuming he is capable of being better than Mannion, even with the best coaching, is guesswork for anyone not in the organization.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Mond sure didn't look like he wanted to be out there the other night.
Or at least he looked like he knew he wasn't wanted out there.
Or at least he looked like he knew he wasn't wanted out there.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I'm not saying Mond will be any good, but he has to be better than Mannion...The fact that Mannion is the backup is NOT the coaches fault and lies with Spielman.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Fair enough. JMHO- "has to be" is impossible to defend at this point. We really don't know what he's capable of. That crossing pattern he mechanically threw into the hands of a defender... that could be what he's capable of.
But we basically know what Mannion is (which is not a future NFL QB) so Mond should have been thrown out there with a game plan that fits his strengths and see what he can do. It couldn't really be worse than what happened on Sunday and if it was then you at least have some info or something to build on for this week.
I am going to be at the game on Sunday so super disappointed it doesn't matter for anything. That being said I hope they at least put on a show and I would like to see a full game from Mond to see what he is. Although, I have a suspicion that Cook won't play and anybody with any type of injury will be out so it will likely be like a pre-season game.....ugh.
ETA: It looks like Sunday has a high of 3. I am coming from CA so I guess I need to bring something other than shorts. If it was in the 20's I could probably still wear shorts for the 10 block walk. Single digits it might be a bit too chilly.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
It's just not something anyone can rationally debate at this point without more facts. I have to say, I think they could ruin Mond Sunday behind this line if he has Hicks in his lap after one second as most Viking QBs do. Not all development opportunities are good ones.
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At some point he needs to be on the field. It's up to the coaches to get a game plan to help him succeed. Unfortunately I don't think these coaches are up to that task.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Right, at some point. And if you and FP are correct, perhaps that point should be under coaches who have prepared him. This Sunday will be particularly brutal, as was the primetime game in Green Bay.
Some of that also depends on the player. Some guys (Peyton Manning) can be thrown to the wolves and come out better for it. Some guys (David Carr) can't. If you look at the guys that were eaten alive being thrust to action it is feasible to say they never were going to have "it". While the ones that succeed likely would have succeeded no matter what. Seems to be a chicken/egg situation to me. I don't have the right answer but anecdotally I would say a guy either has it or doesn't and it's better to know that sooner rather than later. I am sure there is some happy medium of getting thrown to the wolves vs percolating on the bench for some seasoning that is the right answer. I am just not sure what that is.
BigJim®
Footballguy
FWIW- if Darisaw/ONeal/Cleveland are not off covid list, I think a QB will need to have more than 'it' to survive Sunday.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I agree that you want to set the QB to be successful. So starting Mond when the team doesn't have all of their starters on offensive line is not really doing that.
However one of Monds strengths is his mobility so from that angle maybe he would be a better option than Mannion under the same circumstances.
I think the team needs to find out what they have with him to help their decisions regarding the draft and free agency next season and its up to the coaches to devise a game plan that helps Mond be successful with what he can do.
This coaching staff has made it clear they don't think he is ready to play based on what they have seen from Mond in practice. However he has had almost a full season of practices now and he should have been making progress, or as much progress as he could by now.
I fully feel that this is a failure of the coaches to be helping Mond to make progress and to devise a game plan that focuses on his strengths. Mond is a player who made progress every season he played in college and that progress came from him playing games and not from practice.
I worry that the coaches lack of confidence in Mond is also bad for his development and confidence.
However one of Monds strengths is his mobility so from that angle maybe he would be a better option than Mannion under the same circumstances.
I think the team needs to find out what they have with him to help their decisions regarding the draft and free agency next season and its up to the coaches to devise a game plan that helps Mond be successful with what he can do.
This coaching staff has made it clear they don't think he is ready to play based on what they have seen from Mond in practice. However he has had almost a full season of practices now and he should have been making progress, or as much progress as he could by now.
I fully feel that this is a failure of the coaches to be helping Mond to make progress and to devise a game plan that focuses on his strengths. Mond is a player who made progress every season he played in college and that progress came from him playing games and not from practice.
I worry that the coaches lack of confidence in Mond is also bad for his development and confidence.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
It definitely isn't and maybe ZImmer is right that Mond is no good.snogger said:I don't know.. When your own coach says "No, I see enough of him at practice", when asked if he'd like to see Mond in week 18..
That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement
At the same time it is these coaches jobs to help develop Mond and if he isn't ready to play by now they are not doing that.
Sean Mannion isn't the answer to anything.
skol asylum
Footballguy
So who do you guys think is the right pick to replace Zimmer?
FairWarning
Footballguy
I hate the Vikes back to the old Met days. They just owned the Bears, Marshall was a big reason why. Surprised he isn’t in the HOF.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I guess that rules out Bowles. I wouldn't be disappointed with giving Bowles a chance. Hopefully the Jets stank has worn off after winning a Super Bowl with TB...hahhahaaha
Although, after having the defensive minded coach in Zimmer maybe going with an offensive guy would be a nice change of pace. What about Leftwich or Bienemy? Both have had plenty of offensive weapons and seems to know how to use them. The Vikes have a lot of weapons but need to be let loose.
skol asylum
Footballguy
What about the LSU guy that coached Jefferson? I heard his name mentioned before somewhere. I know he was let go recently from his NFL job though.
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skol asylum
Footballguy
Doug Pederson or Byron Leftwich?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
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Donnybrook
Footballguy
I want the Vikings to clean house next week. I don't think Speilman thinks outside the box especially with QBs so I thank him for his service but I won't be heart broken if he is gone. The last thing I want them to do is to play it safe.
I have seen a lot of trade scenarios involving Cousins but not a huge fan of any of them. The idea that intrigues me most is signing free agent Mike White to a contract. I am not sure how much competition there would be for him due to the lack of playing time. Could the Vikings do a early trade with the Jets or let his agent know that they want to make him a contract offer? He might be the perfect bridge QB. Young enough to still develop but unproven enough not to warrant a break the bank contract. I rather not have the Vikings hand cuff themselves again with a veteran. I think they still need a couple of seasons to rebuild the lines and secondary.
I have seen a lot of trade scenarios involving Cousins but not a huge fan of any of them. The idea that intrigues me most is signing free agent Mike White to a contract. I am not sure how much competition there would be for him due to the lack of playing time. Could the Vikings do a early trade with the Jets or let his agent know that they want to make him a contract offer? He might be the perfect bridge QB. Young enough to still develop but unproven enough not to warrant a break the bank contract. I rather not have the Vikings hand cuff themselves again with a veteran. I think they still need a couple of seasons to rebuild the lines and secondary.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I'm with you on cleaning house. Unsure on M White though. Bandaids sound good if there is a long term plan. At present, I think this team either needs to hit rock bottom or else develop an eye for talent. In reality, they'll never even know what they actually have until they give a QB a pocket. They could churn through a Dak Prescott at this point.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
This remains to be seen. Recently I have heard Zimmer gone but Spielman might be retained although there has also been talk about Spielman getting a promotion of sorts staying in a advisory role but being replaced as the GM.
The scouting department might have turnover under a new GM but they will stick with what the scouts have done in preparation for the 2022 draft for the most part I think as a new staff would be too far behind in preparation for 2022. That is what I have heard anyways. Maybe a new scouting staff would be able to take the information the old staff has gathered and still have enough time to get ready for the 2022 draft. I am not sure about that.
Spielman does seem to have some good connections as far as making trades with other teams but maybe that is not the case or not that big of a deal. I am not sure about that. Maybe a new GM would be fine as far as that goes. From my perspective that would be the main reason to keep Spielman around even if he were replaced as the GM.
I agree Mike White is interesting if the Vikings do find a trade partner for Cousins. Maybe Cleveland would want Cousins, not sure what other teams would want him.
The Vikings have some salary cap issues that need to be resolved beyond Cousins and some of their better players like Harrison Smith are getting old now, so they will need to be replaced soon as well. So from that perspective the Vikings may have a lot of needs and turnover.
The main reason to get rid of Cousins is because he is too good for the Vikings to not have some success but not good enough for them to become a top team. A bridge QB might cause a similar issue. It might seem a bit backwards but a rebuild with higher draft picks could be a quicker way to turn the team around. QB who are getting the opportunity to start still get paid a lot so White might not be that cheap compared to what guys like Case Keenum and so on have gotten paid recently. The QB market being what it is I think is part of why the Vikings decided to go with Kirk Cousins instead of paying big money to Keenum or someone else. Really the only way around that is to actually draft a good QB as far as saving cap space goes. Even then a rookie QB who plays well will get paid a lot of money soon after, so any discount there will be short lived.
If the Vikings turn over a lot and lose more games as a result it will improve their draft position but it will also make players like Jefferson and so on unhappy.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Spielman and Zimmer fired
nflnetwork
nflnetwork
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Praise the heavens!
BigJim®
Footballguy
skol asylum
Footballguy
Surprised Rick is gone too. Yesterday reports were he was going to be promoted and may even be picking the new GM.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
"Promoted" is a pretty loose term in those cases. It's pretty euphemistic. You could describe such a move as "Reallocating his talents to a different role". As in "We're gently moving him out of the way."
skol asylum
Footballguy
Yeah, I also like "kicked upstairs". Maybe he was given that option but balked at it.
Now the big question, is Cousins gone? And what do they replace him with? Bridge + another rookie. I don't watch college ball at all but have heard this is a poor QB class. Anything worthy there we can hit at #12 or with a realistic move up via Kirk trade capital?
skol asylum
Footballguy
@RapSheet: The #Jaguars are planning to interview #Packers OC Nathaniel Hackett late this week, likely Friday, source said. Green Bay is on a bye, and it can be in person.
