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Minnesota Vikings Team Thread (3 Viewers)
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BigJim®
Footballguy
I get it. JMHO, change is scary but this is a good sign. These changes scream that the Wilfs want better than mediocrity. Might they select the wrong leadership? Possibly, but as long as they remain serious about working toward contending, we're in good hands. I don't get the Red McCombs vibe from this ownership... they'll do what they think it takes to get the ship righted.
Totally on board with firing Zimmer. I think he's a decent HC, and I doubt he'll struggle to find a DC job if he wants one, but both sides needed a change. That said, Spielman feels like a mistake, the Vikings draft record has been about as good as anyone during his tenure. Feels a little like throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Spielman failed at the most important job as GM... finding a franchise QB. I for one had zero confidence he would/could, if he did not in 16 years.
I can definitely agree with all this. You're right that just because making a change possibly ends in disaster doesn't mean that you should be afraid of making changes as many times as needed.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I don't think Spielman is a particularly good drafter either.
2015 - Waynes was a bust of a 1st round pick. Mined gold, of course, with Kendricks/Hunter/Diggs
2016 - An abject disaster
2017 - Dalvin Cook. That is all.
2018 - Mike Hughes, an injury bust so who knows? O'Neill is pretty good. But the rest is pretty terrible.
2019 - Bradbury is terrible. Smith is emerging. Mattison serviceable. The rest...terrible.
2020 - Jefferson, obviously. Cleveland, decent. Sad trombone sounds from there.
2021 - Darrisaw looks promising. Nwangwu is a good special teamer. Yuck on the rest.
Add to that the absurd contracts to Barr and, yes, Cook and I am glad he's gone.
2015 - Waynes was a bust of a 1st round pick. Mined gold, of course, with Kendricks/Hunter/Diggs
2016 - An abject disaster
2017 - Dalvin Cook. That is all.
2018 - Mike Hughes, an injury bust so who knows? O'Neill is pretty good. But the rest is pretty terrible.
2019 - Bradbury is terrible. Smith is emerging. Mattison serviceable. The rest...terrible.
2020 - Jefferson, obviously. Cleveland, decent. Sad trombone sounds from there.
2021 - Darrisaw looks promising. Nwangwu is a good special teamer. Yuck on the rest.
Add to that the absurd contracts to Barr and, yes, Cook and I am glad he's gone.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I was going to post that Andy could hit at the frequency of Spielman but thought it would come off as a swipe. It's not. Spielman was an excitement addict at the draft, acquiring as many chips and chairs as he could. That would have been great if he had a particularly good eye for late round talent. He did not, IMHO.
My biggest disappointment, aside from never finding a franchise QB, is I don't think Spielman even really set a table for a soon to be franchise QB. I think we still need to focus on interior pass protection before we can hope to have success grooming a franchise QB to use the offensive weapons on the team.
snogger
Footballguy
In regards to Cousins.. he has a ton of dead cap space.. over 25+ million.. they'd need to find someone that's willing to eat that number, or work out a trade/restructure. I think Cousin has proven that with the right offensive play calling he is above average.
Problem is, from what I've seen, this draft class doesn't have top talent at QB that can start day 1.
They could go after one of them in the first round and have them be the backup for a year..
But is Cousin's willing to play with just his current 1 year contract, knowing he is one year and gone?
BigJim®
Footballguy
I don't see a path to Cousins being replaceable for 2022. I hope a new regime would not hang it's hat on a prospect in a bad class. Hope they begin with building a foundation, determining whether Mond is worth grooming, etc.In regards to Cousins.. he has a ton of dead cap space.. over 25+ million.. they'd need to find someone that's willing to eat that number, or work out a trade/restructure. I think Cousin has proven that with the right offensive play calling he is above average.
Problem is, from what I've seen, this draft class doesn't have top talent at QB that can start day 1.
They could go after one of them in the first round and have them be the backup for a year..
But is Cousin's willing to play with just his current 1 year contract, knowing he is one year and gone?
I'd very much argue Cousins is a franchise QB. If he's not, then there are only about 7 in the NFL. Because Cousins is absolutely a top-10 NFL QB.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I think the league hates Cousins. Which is dumb, of course. If you dump him then you have to replace him. That's not easy.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Cousins is not a franchise QB as I'd define it. He's a year-by-year stopgap guy who is here for the brinks truck. His entire time of employment will be one where he eats 20-25% of a salary cap, impeding other team needs. I'm thinking more organic... getting the next up and comer who gives significant cap relief the first 4-5 years who you eventually need to pay, but by then you've addressed the foundation blocks that lead to a successful team.
ETA-I'm definitely not saying this as a Cousins hater. I like him as a QB, but realistically the cost is just going to go up and up and up. I'm not sure we can afford to have him on the team 3 years from now.
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Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Cousins just isn't a guy that can dig you out of a hole. Which is where the team found itself far too often as a result of defensive failure.
Had the offensive philosophy been "pass to establish the run" rather than the more traditional & conservative "run to establish the pass", I think they'd have had more success. But by the time they got to their fourth possession - kicking up clouds of dust to get three or six points - they'd look up and see they were down 14-3 and have to start playin catch up. Which that offense just couldn't do.
Had the offensive philosophy been "pass to establish the run" rather than the more traditional & conservative "run to establish the pass", I think they'd have had more success. But by the time they got to their fourth possession - kicking up clouds of dust to get three or six points - they'd look up and see they were down 14-3 and have to start playin catch up. Which that offense just couldn't do.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
The pick at 1.10 should be Tyler Linderbaum.
ffmail4me
Footballguy
Cousins is a franchise QB. Every year he puts up very good numbers statistically. Is he one of the elite that can always win games in the clutch? Absolutely not. But there are tons of other QBs in the league that can't either, and a lot of those don't sniff 4000 yards and 30 TDs in a year like Cousins has done in his career.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
Of course it is not easy. It's not any easier when you dedicate 3-4 years to the Tarvaris Jacksons, Christian Ponders and Teddy Bridgewaters. Whoops, there's 12 lost years. That's why identifying guys capable of being Josh Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, Rodgers, Prescott, L Jackson, Mac Jones, Russ Wilson etc., etc., etc. is so critical. Spielman couldn't do it. Maybe the next GM can, maybe he can't, but a franchise can't become great going from hired gun to hired gun at $40M a year..
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
That's a pretty small sample size. How many hired guns have ever made $40m a year?
In which case we should ask how many franchises are good when their QB makes $40m/year...regardless of how they acquired him.
Look, I'm all for getting a better QB than Kirk. I just don't want to jettison Kirk before that QB is identified.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
Small sample size? I suspect going forward that will be the floor for any FA QB y'all would consider franchise-level.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
But that's what I'm saying. How many franchise level free agent QBs are ever available?
There will be zero in 2022.
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TB just won the Super Bowl(and could again this year) with a hired gun at QB. Denver won with Manning. SF almost did with Jimmy G. Arizona almost did with Warner. Brees was a high priced FA at the time for NO. Possibly could count Foles in 2017.
Those are all Super Bowl teams from the last 15 years.
I'd also stand by Teddy. He's never been the same since his knee injury. I don't know that he'd have been a franchise QB, but I'd certainly argue his early career pre-injury, wasn't any worse than Mac Jones, and he was possible/probably going to be a Dak level player.
Even in trade, I'd bet on Watson being the only guy who switches teams. I'd be surprised if Rodgers or Wilson were actually dealt.
BigJim®
Footballguy
What are we debating here? Again, mine is not an anti-Cousins stance. I think we should realistically view him as a financial drag stopgap though. He's likely not franchise in the sense of he's the long term solution because he'll cost more and more each year, JMHO.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
The QB issue is the same across the league. Every team needs a great QB to consistently be competitive but there are only a handful of great QBs in the league. Especially by the definition where a top 10-15 QB is not considered great.
KC got Patrick Mahomes who I think most would agree is a great QB. They didn't get to pay him peanuts for 4-5 years. He played so well that he got a new contract in 2020 after two very good seasons not 4 or 5.
For the most part if a rookie QB plays well the team is going to look to lock them up before they are in a contract year. So you are only talking about saving money at the position for 4 seasons, one of those being the rookie season where the QB may not play or play well.
While I think Kirk Cousins is a good QB I don't think he is a great one. He has bad games or parts of bad games. The game yesterday shows that. Now its a team sport and every QB needs protection to do well and Cousins doesn't always get good protection from the Oline and when he isn't getting that he tends to not play well. Same is true for nearly every QB in the league, but I would say that the great QBs find a way to do well even without protection and other things being perfect.
I understand why the Vikings went with Cousins. It was because Sam Bradford had injury issues that made him unreliable. It is because Teddy Bridgewater had an injury that they were not confident enough in him over coming and it is because Case Keenum was going to make more money than they thought he was worth.
While I think Cousins is only a good QB not a great one, he has been very durable and that is something that was very important to this team after Bridgewater and Bradford.
I kind of think Spielman did the best he could with the options available as far as the decision to go with Kirk Cousins. Where Speilman did not do a good job was in drafting Christian Ponder after not having a back up plan in place when they went all in with Brett Favre. I also think it was a poor decision to trade a 1st round pick for Sam Bradford after Teddy was injured although I can somewhat understand why they did that.
They were doing everything they could to win now while their defense was good and the team was in a window to complete for a championship. They did this too much in my opinion by not working on a plan B for when Favre declined and by trading for Same Bradford.
KC got Patrick Mahomes who I think most would agree is a great QB. They didn't get to pay him peanuts for 4-5 years. He played so well that he got a new contract in 2020 after two very good seasons not 4 or 5.
For the most part if a rookie QB plays well the team is going to look to lock them up before they are in a contract year. So you are only talking about saving money at the position for 4 seasons, one of those being the rookie season where the QB may not play or play well.
While I think Kirk Cousins is a good QB I don't think he is a great one. He has bad games or parts of bad games. The game yesterday shows that. Now its a team sport and every QB needs protection to do well and Cousins doesn't always get good protection from the Oline and when he isn't getting that he tends to not play well. Same is true for nearly every QB in the league, but I would say that the great QBs find a way to do well even without protection and other things being perfect.
I understand why the Vikings went with Cousins. It was because Sam Bradford had injury issues that made him unreliable. It is because Teddy Bridgewater had an injury that they were not confident enough in him over coming and it is because Case Keenum was going to make more money than they thought he was worth.
While I think Cousins is only a good QB not a great one, he has been very durable and that is something that was very important to this team after Bridgewater and Bradford.
I kind of think Spielman did the best he could with the options available as far as the decision to go with Kirk Cousins. Where Speilman did not do a good job was in drafting Christian Ponder after not having a back up plan in place when they went all in with Brett Favre. I also think it was a poor decision to trade a 1st round pick for Sam Bradford after Teddy was injured although I can somewhat understand why they did that.
They were doing everything they could to win now while their defense was good and the team was in a window to complete for a championship. They did this too much in my opinion by not working on a plan B for when Favre declined and by trading for Same Bradford.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I think we're debating whether or not a team can win with a $40m/year QB. Free agent or drafted, it doesn't really matter.
There's a trope out there that teams better win it all when they have a franchise level QB on his rookie contract or it won't happen at all. It's inaccurate.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Yeah, you're mentioning one GOAT player and a 2nd HOFer.... on essentially 1-year franchise plays. Brees is a better example of a hired gun who panned out as a franchise QB. I'd love it if we can do that. Maybe Cousins can be our Brees? I don't know, if we can afford it I guess. Preferably the Vikes find a prospect who could become that guy instead of paying that guy out of the gates.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Hey, if the Vikes can build around Cousin's contract, I'm all for it. As mentioned, I think he is a great QB who simply has been put in a bad situation (statuesque pocket passer without a pocket). I don't think it's ideal, and would love to relive a Culpepper-like young star, but I'll definitely take Cousins if it doesn't hamstring.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
For the most part you are right however you have glossed over some players I added in bold. Some of the players from the last two draft classes might prove their worth in years ahead. Not enough time yet to fairly judge. Osborn looked like a waste before this season.
The 2016 and 2017 draft classes were not good though I fully agree with that. There have been too many 1st round picks wasted as well. Need to hit on more than 50% of those to be considered a good drafter.
They have done a good job selecting DE in the 3rd/4th round and WR in the 5th round if Osborn and ISM continue to progress.
They have missed on too many offensive linemen and cornerbacks though.
mr roboto
Footballguy
But this thread shows me is that there are still some reasonable Vikings fans left. Cousins is the best multi-year quarterback we’ve had since Culpepper. He’s the first quarterback to have two years where he didn’t miss a game since Dante. For two years he only missed one game each so over four years he has missed two games.
I would venture to guess he has the highest passer rating and touchdown interception ratio of any Vikings quarterback that has played multiple years in at least the last 20 years.
I would also venture to guess he has had the worst two year stretch of Vikings defenses since the early 2000s.
Obviously everybody would like to draft Kyler Murray or Russell Wilson or Patrick Mahomes and win a couple championships on the rookie contract but that only comes around every few years and only one team gets them. There has to be other ways to a championship besides that.
I would venture to guess he has the highest passer rating and touchdown interception ratio of any Vikings quarterback that has played multiple years in at least the last 20 years.
I would also venture to guess he has had the worst two year stretch of Vikings defenses since the early 2000s.
Obviously everybody would like to draft Kyler Murray or Russell Wilson or Patrick Mahomes and win a couple championships on the rookie contract but that only comes around every few years and only one team gets them. There has to be other ways to a championship besides that.
babydemon90
Footballguy
This is the problem with Cousins, as an outsider. I think he's absolutely a guy you can win with. But not if he eats up that much of the cap. If you have Cousins making 15-20 million and can still build a good team around him? You're in business. He's not an Aaron Rodgers or Mahomes that elevates the entire offense to greatness and can win constant shootouts if need be (and recall even Rodgers has only won one Super Bowl so far..)
Cousins is a very good QB and he's definitely one of the best this team has had in a while. But he's not elite and I don't think he's worth what he's getting paid. I think his stats make him seem better than he really is. Watching him, I see a guy that plays way too safe and only throws if the guy is wide open. Not sure how much of that is scheme and coaching versus Cousins.
Which brings me to one of my problems with what the NFL has become. Gone are the days when you can win with a Dilfer and a great defense. To be clear, Cousins is way better than Dilfer, just lamenting how you seem to need a super elite QB these days.
Which brings me to one of my problems with what the NFL has become. Gone are the days when you can win with a Dilfer and a great defense. To be clear, Cousins is way better than Dilfer, just lamenting how you seem to need a super elite QB these days.
snogger
Footballguy
list.. So, if you all really want to jettison Kirk.. And Russel wants of Seattle.. Are you all interested??Otherwise, if you really want them to get rid of Cousin's, you have a rookie or one of those crappy FA's..
If no to Kirk or Russel, are you willing to waste Cook and Jefferson in their prime to rebuild and hope for 2023?
BigJim®
Footballguy
Ya know, I'm just going to bask in the anticipation of change and hope for the best. Time will tell what the dominos lead to but JMHO those are two guys to build around, and a ton of other opportunities to divest. Those guys and Kendricks I build up from.
Otherwise, if you really want them to get rid of Cousin's, you have a rookie or one of those crappy FA's..
If no to Kirk or Russel, are you willing to waste Cook and Jefferson in their prime to rebuild and hope for 2023?
Tau837
Footballguy
This is a classic "be careful what you wish for" situation. Cousins has been a top half of NFL QB for the Vikings. If they get rid of him, who will they get to replace him? It seems pretty unlikely they will get a top 5 NFL QB. If not, the best they can probably hope for is to get a Cousins-level performer, ideally at a lower cap hit in the short term. How likely is that?
BigJim®
Footballguy
Most here are acknowledging the Vikes have something in Cousins. I was the one who probably misspoke broadly saying Spielman has never solved franchise QB. I should have been clearer. Cousins is, but he's very expensive, and may or may not be retainable for 2023. For me, it's more not always frigging winging it, and desperately drafting whoever has a heartbeat because the cupboard is empty, and putting every single egg in that basket for 4 years. The Vikes need to join the big boy league and constantly have transition planning in the works. Not UDFA or 7th round swings who can't conceivably challenge for PT. Maybe Mond is that; we'll see. Having a guy like Mannion as an NFL back-up is cartoonish.
BigJim®
Footballguy
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I don't think there is any doubt that Cousins and Zimmer didn't get along...wondering if a new coach might help Kirk take a much more team friendly deal to stick around...
skol asylum
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Bah click bait value.
The owner said yesterday that they will hire a GM before they hire a coach. Have they done that yet?
skol asylum
Footballguy
I guess I didn't follow the Eagles close enough to get the reservations on Pederson. Someone want to fill me in?
BigJim®
Footballguy
My take was the wheels fell off the two seasons after the Super Bowl with significant injuries to OL, WR and secondary, and he became a victim of circumstance. I don’t really understand the negativity. Clearly he was good enough to coach a team to a 13-3 record and super bowl win.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
My bah was about Andy Carlson not Pederson. He is prolific uploading a you tube video pretty much every day whether there is something to actually say or not.
I am not excited about the prospect of Pederson being the next coach but I am not really against it either. They will need to hire some one.
The speculation just seems to be putting the cart before the horse based on what I heard the owner say about the GM having input on the coaching decisions.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
You are a lot more forgiving of Pederson than you are Zimmer.
I am not sure if I am going to like whoever the Vikings end up going with as the next head coach. I will try to be open minded about it and go from there.
BigJim®
Footballguy
All due respect, this take is beneath you.
These coaches could not be any different in style, mentality and yes... successes. If Zimmer was head coach of the Eagles in the 2017 NFC Championship game, it would have been a 3-and-out fest after the Eagles went up 14-7, and a game that came down to a FG. I remember well the Eagles continuing to attack - even beginning a drive with just 29 seconds left before halftime from their own 20 with a 14 point lead, and tacking on more points. Zimmer's problem in that game was thinking he was opposing a coach with his own mentality, but he was facing the antithesis of himself. He was attacked relentlessly all day long, regardless of the score.
Keenum’s miracle pass - in a lost game after one in a long line of Zimmer's prevent defense fails - was fun. Pederson ran the table with a back-up QB, putting 41 points on the board in the Super Bowl - more points against New England than its prior 3 opponents combined.
Despite ridiculous injuries, Pederson led the Eagles to playoffs in 2018 and 2019... winning the final 4 must-win games in 2019.
In 2020, the Eagles were decimated at OL. They used 14 different OL personnel groupings, Wentz was sacked 50 times in 12 games, Hurts additional 13 times, and Sudfeld and additional 2 times. That's 65 sacks allowed. They missed the playoffs for the first time in 4 seasons, and Pederson was fired. Zimmer has missed playoffs 3 of the last 4, I'd argue with far fewer injuries.
I'm by no means sold on a retread coach. But come talk to me about whether I'm giving Zimmer the same leeway next time he head coaches a Super Bowl win, or does anything at all which is not the most conservative thing to be done.
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