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Mitt Romney: The need for a mighty U.S. military (1 Viewer)

Gary Coal Man

Footballguy
Washington Post Op/Ed

By Mitt Romney September 4

The writer is the former governor of Massachusetts. In 2012, the Republican Party nominated him for president of the United States.
Russia invades, China bullies, Iran spins centrifuges, the Islamic State (a terrorist threat “beyond anything that we’ve seen,” according to the defense secretary ) threatens — and Washington slashes the military. Reason stares.

Several arguments are advanced to justify the decimation of our defense. All of them are wrong.

The president asserts that we must move to “a new order that’s based on a different set of principles, that’s based on a sense of common humanity.” The old order, he is saying, where America’s disproportionate strength holds tyrants in check and preserves the sovereignty of nations, is to be replaced.

It is said that the first rule of wing-walking is to not let go with one hand until the other hand has a firm grip. So, too, before we jettison our reliance on U.S. strength, there must be something effective in its place — if such a thing is even possible. Further, the appeal to “common humanity” as the foundation of this new world order ignores the reality that humanity is far from common in values and views. Humanity may commonly agree that there is evil, but what one people calls evil another calls good.


There are those who claim that a multipolar world is preferable to one led by a strong United States. Were these other poles nations such as Australia, Canada, France and Britain, I might concur. But with emerging poles being China, Russia and Iran, the world would not see peace; it would see bullying, invasion and regional wars. And ultimately, one would seek to conquer the others, unleashing world war.

Some argue that the United States should simply withdraw its military strength from the world — get out of the Middle East, accept nuclear weapons in Iran and elsewhere, let China and Russia have their way with their neighbors and watch from the sidelines as jihadists storm on two or three continents. Do this, they contend, and the United States would be left alone.

No, we would not. The history of the 20th century teaches that power-hungry tyrants ultimately feast on the appeasers — to use former Mississippi governor Haley Barbour’s phrase, we would be paying the cannibals to eat us last. And in the meantime, our economy would be devastated by the disruption of trade routes, the turmoil in global markets and the tumult of conflict across the world. Global peace and stability are very much in our immediate national interest.

Some insist that our military is already so much stronger than that of any other nation that we can safely cut it back, again and again. Their evidence: the relative size of our defense budget. But these comparisons are nearly meaningless: Russia and China don’t report their actual defense spending, they pay their servicemen a tiny fraction of what we pay ours and their cost to build military armament is also a fraction of ours. More relevant is the fact that Russia’s nuclear arsenal is significantly greater than our own and that, within six years, China will have more ships in its navy than we do. China already has more service members. Further, our military is tasked with many more missions than those of other nations: preserving the freedom of the seas, the air and space; combating radical jihadists; and preserving order and stability around the world as well as defending the United States.

The most ludicrous excuse for shrinking our military derives from the president’s thinking: “Things are much less dangerous now than they were 20 years ago, 25 years ago or 30 years ago.” The “safer world” trial balloon has been punctured by recent events in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Gaza, Nigeria, Somalia, Syria and Iraq. “Failures of imagination” led to tragedy 13 years ago; today, no imagination is required to picture what would descend on the United States if we let down our guard.

The arguments for shrinking our military fall aside to reveal the real reason for the cuts: Politicians, and many of the people who elect them, want to keep up spending here at home. Entitlements and programs are putting pressure on the federal budget: We either cut defense, or we cut spending on ourselves. That, or raise our taxes.

To date, the politicians have predictably voted to slash defense. As Bret Stephens noted in Commentary magazine this month, the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.


Washington politicians are poised to make a historic decision, for us, for our descendants and for the world. Freedom and peace are in the balance. They will choose whether to succumb to the easy path of continued military hollowing or to honor their constitutional pledge to protect the United States.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.

 
From what I understand, most of the proposed reductions to our military spending are designed to weed out antiquated weapons and programs in favor of more modern approaches, and a large percentage of these were proposed by the Pentagon, but rejected by Republican lawmakers because they don't want to appear to ever be in favor of "cutting the military." In his rush to accuse Obama of appeasement, Romney fails to mention any of this .

 
the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.
If our Navy is the size that it was in 1917 we must have a huge mother ####### navy in 1917. And no way we had more nukes under Truman than we do today.

 
the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.
If our Navy is the size that it was in 1917 we must have a huge mother ####### navy in 1917. And no way we had more nukes under Truman than we do today.
Interestingly just checked. In 2001 - 2008 we had a smaller Navy than in 1917. In 2009-2011 (last numbers reported) we had a bigger Navy than 2001-2008 and bigger than 1917.

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org9-4.htm#1917

 
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Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.

 
the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.
If our Navy is the size that it was in 1917 we must have a huge mother ####### navy in 1917. And no way we had more nukes under Truman than we do today.
Today we have 2,200 nuclear warheads. I can't find the exact numbers under Truman, but I do know this:

1. We tested our very first thermonuclear bomb in November of 1952.

2. President Truman left office in January of 1953.

So unless Truman's people went on some huge miraculous buildup in November and December of 1952, I rather doubt Mitt has got this right.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
by not doing things you mean other than:

Czechoslovakia invasion, crushing the Hungarian Revolution, Berlin Crisis of 1961, supplying Vietnam, invasion of Afghanistan, shooting down KAL 007, militarizing the entire eastern bloc, deploying nuclear weaspons into Eastern Europe, the Warsaw Pact and a bunch more (someone call Billy Joel)

 
the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.
If our Navy is the size that it was in 1917 we must have a huge mother ####### navy in 1917. And no way we had more nukes under Truman than we do today.
Interestingly just checked. In 2001 - 2008 we had a smaller Navy than in 1917. In 2009-2011 (last numbers reported) we had a bigger Navy than 2001-2008 and bigger than 1917.

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org9-4.htm#1917
1917 is a world war year. Using either 1917-1918 or 1942-1945 for any comparison is absolutely ludicrous. Try 1915, 1925, 1935, or 1955, and then you'll have a better idea.

Also, we've probably never had a bigger navy than we did in 1944. But if the navy we have today were to face that 1944 navy in battle, I'd think we'd kick their ###.

 
the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.
If our Navy is the size that it was in 1917 we must have a huge mother ####### navy in 1917. And no way we had more nukes under Truman than we do today.
Today we have 2,200 nuclear warheads. I can't find the exact numbers under Truman, but I do know this:

1. We tested our very first thermonuclear bomb in November of 1952.

2. President Truman left office in January of 1953.

So unless Truman's people went on some huge miraculous buildup in November and December of 1952, I rather doubt Mitt has got this right.
Well, the US did have nukes prior to the hydrogen bomb, but I cant imagine it was a substantial arsenal, even with the reduction in numbers we have had since the 80s.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
What does this mean exactly?

Kennedy discovered missiles in Cuba. He demanded they be withdrawn. He did not attack Cuba, but he did use the Navy to blockade. Kennedy never once threatened the use of nuclear weapons nor did he even consider it (except of course, in retaliation to the Soviets using them.)

So what do you have in mind? What demand should we make of the Russians and where should we blockade?

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
by not doing things you mean other than:

Czechoslovakia invasion, crushing the Hungarian Revolution, Berlin Crisis of 1961, supplying Vietnam, invasion of Afghanistan, shooting down KAL 007, militarizing the entire eastern bloc, deploying nuclear weaspons into Eastern Europe, the Warsaw Pact and a bunch more (someone call Billy Joel)
Of course there were always side skirmishes. But they happened from both sides. But was a nuclear missile ever fired? Did a huge Russian/US war ever happen? No. Because each side was afraid of mutual mass destruction. Sadly, the US is the only one worried about that now. Which gives Russia the upper hand.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
What does this mean exactly?

Kennedy discovered missiles in Cuba. He demanded they be withdrawn. He did not attack Cuba, but he did use the Navy to blockade. Kennedy never once threatened the use of nuclear weapons nor did he even consider it (except of course, in retaliation to the Soviets using them.)

So what do you have in mind? What demand should we make of the Russians and where should we blockade?
I never said he did any of that. But he drew a line in the sand and basically said to the Russians, "Your call. If you want to start WW3, cross that line."

 
the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.
If our Navy is the size that it was in 1917 we must have a huge mother ####### navy in 1917. And no way we had more nukes under Truman than we do today.
Today we have 2,200 nuclear warheads. I can't find the exact numbers under Truman, but I do know this:

1. We tested our very first thermonuclear bomb in November of 1952.

2. President Truman left office in January of 1953.

So unless Truman's people went on some huge miraculous buildup in November and December of 1952, I rather doubt Mitt has got this right.
A nuclear weapon is any weapon that has an explosive device that derives its destructive force from nuclear reactions, either fission or a combo of fission and fusion. Thus, the atomic bombs that preceded the thermonuclear bomb which you referenced are considered nuclear bombs. This includes the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
What does this mean exactly?

Kennedy discovered missiles in Cuba. He demanded they be withdrawn. He did not attack Cuba, but he did use the Navy to blockade. Kennedy never once threatened the use of nuclear weapons nor did he even consider it (except of course, in retaliation to the Soviets using them.)

So what do you have in mind? What demand should we make of the Russians and where should we blockade?
I never said he did any of that. But he drew a line in the sand and basically said to the Russians, "Your call. If you want to start WW3, cross that line."
Right, because there were Soviet nuclear weapons in South Florida.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
What does this mean exactly?

Kennedy discovered missiles in Cuba. He demanded they be withdrawn. He did not attack Cuba, but he did use the Navy to blockade. Kennedy never once threatened the use of nuclear weapons nor did he even consider it (except of course, in retaliation to the Soviets using them.)

So what do you have in mind? What demand should we make of the Russians and where should we blockade?
I never said he did any of that. But he drew a line in the sand and basically said to the Russians, "Your call. If you want to start WW3, cross that line."
No he didn't. He blockaded Cuba, and made a VERY SPECIFIC DEMAND.

So again, since you think this is something we should do today, I ask: what would YOUR demand be, and what would you threaten Russia with?

 
the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.
If our Navy is the size that it was in 1917 we must have a huge mother ####### navy in 1917. And no way we had more nukes under Truman than we do today.
Today we have 2,200 nuclear warheads. I can't find the exact numbers under Truman, but I do know this:

1. We tested our very first thermonuclear bomb in November of 1952.

2. President Truman left office in January of 1953.

So unless Truman's people went on some huge miraculous buildup in November and December of 1952, I rather doubt Mitt has got this right.
A nuclear weapon is any weapon that has an explosive device that derives its destructive force from nuclear reactions, either fission or a combo of fission and fusion. Thus, the atomic bombs that preceded the thermonuclear bomb which you referenced are considered nuclear bombs. This includes the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Understood. We have 2,200 thermonuclear warheads currently. I'm going to hazard a guess that even 100 thermonuclear warheads are equal to about 10,000 of the bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and therefore this comparison to Truman, much like the Navy comparison to 1917, is insipid. Agree or disagree?

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
What does this mean exactly?

Kennedy discovered missiles in Cuba. He demanded they be withdrawn. He did not attack Cuba, but he did use the Navy to blockade. Kennedy never once threatened the use of nuclear weapons nor did he even consider it (except of course, in retaliation to the Soviets using them.)

So what do you have in mind? What demand should we make of the Russians and where should we blockade?
I never said he did any of that. But he drew a line in the sand and basically said to the Russians, "Your call. If you want to start WW3, cross that line."
Right, because there were Soviet nuclear weapons in South Florida.
What the hell are you talking about? :confused:

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
What does this mean exactly?

Kennedy discovered missiles in Cuba. He demanded they be withdrawn. He did not attack Cuba, but he did use the Navy to blockade. Kennedy never once threatened the use of nuclear weapons nor did he even consider it (except of course, in retaliation to the Soviets using them.)

So what do you have in mind? What demand should we make of the Russians and where should we blockade?
I never said he did any of that. But he drew a line in the sand and basically said to the Russians, "Your call. If you want to start WW3, cross that line."
No he didn't. He blockaded Cuba, and made a VERY SPECIFIC DEMAND.

So again, since you think this is something we should do today, I ask: what would YOUR demand be, and what would you threaten Russia with?
Umm. We just said the same things.

What would I do? I start working with NATO to start moving troops up against the borders of Russia. I'd also start moving in NATO troops into Ukraine. Not where the fighting is, but close enough. And I tell Putin that if any of these troops come under fire, there would be a retaliation. A MASSIVE retaliation. Then I would go on TV and give a speech saying that I expect that Putin can handle his army and that none of his troops should fire or advanced. And if they do, that means that Putin is not in control of his own military.

Just off the top of my head.

 
Some argue that the United States should simply withdraw its military strength from the world — get out of the Middle East, accept nuclear weapons in Iran and elsewhere, let China and Russia have their way with their neighbors and watch from the sidelines as jihadists storm on two or three continents. Do this, they contend, and the United States would be left alone.
Even Dennis Kucinich isn't arguing that.

Good ole Mitt. :lmao:

 
OK.

Sorry Iron Sheik I just can't agree. Cuba was near us and the missiles there represented a threat, also there's that whole Monroe Doctrine thing. The Ukraine's not a member of NATO. I don't think it would be wise to go to war over Ukraine or threaten nuclear war.

 
The “safer world” trial balloon has been punctured by recent events in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Gaza, Nigeria, Somalia, Syria and Iraq. “Failures of imagination” led to tragedy 13 years ago; today, no imagination is required to picture what would descend on the United States if we let down our guard.
The world's biggest problems are in places a majority of Americans couldn't locate on a map.

 
the Army is on track to be the size it was in 1940, the Navy to be the size it was in 1917, the Air Force to be smaller than in 1947 and our nuclear arsenal to be no larger than it was under President Harry S. Truman.
If our Navy is the size that it was in 1917 we must have a huge mother ####### navy in 1917. And no way we had more nukes under Truman than we do today.
Today we have 2,200 nuclear warheads. I can't find the exact numbers under Truman, but I do know this:

1. We tested our very first thermonuclear bomb in November of 1952.

2. President Truman left office in January of 1953.

So unless Truman's people went on some huge miraculous buildup in November and December of 1952, I rather doubt Mitt has got this right.
A nuclear weapon is any weapon that has an explosive device that derives its destructive force from nuclear reactions, either fission or a combo of fission and fusion. Thus, the atomic bombs that preceded the thermonuclear bomb which you referenced are considered nuclear bombs. This includes the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Understood. We have 2,200 thermonuclear warheads currently. I'm going to hazard a guess that even 100 thermonuclear warheads are equal to about 10,000 of the bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and therefore this comparison to Truman, much like the Navy comparison to 1917, is insipid. Agree or disagree?
I agree that the total nuclear power the US military possesses today is exponentially greater than it was under Truman. I don't know, however, the number of nuclear warheads the US military currently possesses in comparison to the stockpile under Truman; so I don't know whether Romney's statement is technically correct.

EDIT: I'd be surprised, though, if the US did produce more nuclear warheads from the time the Manhattan Project started to the time Truman left office than the US military currently possesses. That doesn't seem highly plausible to me; but, then again, I assume that Romney must have a fact checker. I don't know.

 
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The “safer world” trial balloon has been punctured by recent events in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Gaza, Nigeria, Somalia, Syria and Iraq. “Failures of imagination” led to tragedy 13 years ago; today, no imagination is required to picture what would descend on the United States if we let down our guard.
The world's biggest problems are in places a majority of Americans couldn't locate on a map.
If there's going to always be some degree of conflict in the world, I'm sure glad its confined to those lovely places.

 
OK.

Sorry Iron Sheik I just can't agree. Cuba was near us and the missiles there represented a threat, also there's that whole Monroe Doctrine thing. The Ukraine's not a member of NATO. I don't think it would be wise to go to war over Ukraine or threaten nuclear war.
I didn't say threaten nuclear war. But I want the Russians to fear the thought that we could go to nuclear war with them.

 
Phil Sheridan would turn over in his grave if he knew just exactly how many horses the cavalry has these days.

 
OK.

Sorry Iron Sheik I just can't agree. Cuba was near us and the missiles there represented a threat, also there's that whole Monroe Doctrine thing. The Ukraine's not a member of NATO. I don't think it would be wise to go to war over Ukraine or threaten nuclear war.
I didn't say threaten nuclear war. But I want the Russians to fear the thought that we could go to nuclear war with them.
Under what conditions would you be willing to initiate a nuclear war against the Russians?

ETA. Because I can't think of any myself.

 
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More relevant is the fact that Russias nuclear arsenal is significantly greater than our own
I felt safe when we had more nukes than the Ruskies but we're in trouble now.
We are more likely to blow ourselves up anyway with the horrific incompetentency that the nuclear weapons have been handled in this country.
We can't even keep our celebrities noods safe.
Upton has some awesome ICBMs.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
by not doing things you mean other than:

Czechoslovakia invasion, crushing the Hungarian Revolution, Berlin Crisis of 1961, supplying Vietnam, invasion of Afghanistan, shooting down KAL 007, militarizing the entire eastern bloc, deploying nuclear weaspons into Eastern Europe, the Warsaw Pact and a bunch more (someone call Billy Joel)
Of course there were always side skirmishes. But they happened from both sides. But was a nuclear missile ever fired? Did a huge Russian/US war ever happen? No. Because each side was afraid of mutual mass destruction. Sadly, the US is the only one worried about that now. Which gives Russia the upper hand.
Sorry, I'm not following where Russia has an upper hand? I will assume you mean Ukraine. If so that's not anything they haven't done during the Cold War in Hungary or Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. when you say there were more scared of the US.

 
OK.

Sorry Iron Sheik I just can't agree. Cuba was near us and the missiles there represented a threat, also there's that whole Monroe Doctrine thing. The Ukraine's not a member of NATO. I don't think it would be wise to go to war over Ukraine or threaten nuclear war.
I didn't say threaten nuclear war. But I want the Russians to fear the thought that we could go to nuclear war with them.
Under what conditions would you be willing to initiate a nuclear war against the Russians?

ETA. Because I can't think of any myself.
Why do you keep asking that? I'm not saying to initiate nuclear war. What I've continually said is that the Cold War worked because we both were afraid of nuclear war. Now only we are. Did you not hear Putin issue a warning to the US not to mess with "Nuclear Russia" last week? Does that sound like he's the least bit afraid of us? Oddly enough, we are afraid and we are technically "Nuclear America." He's getting no push back. Lines need to be drawn in the sand. Stalemates need to happen. Until this does, Russia just continues to defy the world. Are you OK with that? Because I'm not. I'm not cool with passenger airliners being shot out of the air. Countries being taken over because no one will stand with them. And why not? Because Russia has nuclear weapons? Well, we have them too. Draw those lines and let's see how fast Putin crosses them.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
by not doing things you mean other than:

Czechoslovakia invasion, crushing the Hungarian Revolution, Berlin Crisis of 1961, supplying Vietnam, invasion of Afghanistan, shooting down KAL 007, militarizing the entire eastern bloc, deploying nuclear weaspons into Eastern Europe, the Warsaw Pact and a bunch more (someone call Billy Joel)
Of course there were always side skirmishes. But they happened from both sides. But was a nuclear missile ever fired? Did a huge Russian/US war ever happen? No. Because each side was afraid of mutual mass destruction. Sadly, the US is the only one worried about that now. Which gives Russia the upper hand.
Sorry, I'm not following where Russia has an upper hand? I will assume you mean Ukraine. If so that's not anything they haven't done during the Cold War in Hungary or Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. when you say there were more scared of the US.
You think Ukraine has the upper hand? :confused:

 
Back in 1951, General MacArthur realized that there was no conventional way for the United States to win the Korean War. The best that could be hoped for was a stalemate. Since this outcome went against everything he had believed his entire life ("no substitute for victory", etc.), MacArthur proposed the use of nuclear weapons. He didn't consider the consequences, that Russia, who at the time was China's ally, might retaliate against us. Truman and Dean Acheson did realize it. They vetoed the idea. MacArthur complained to the press that the President was hampering him, and Truman fired MacArthur. The Republicans, particularly conservatives, couldn't accept this. What they really couldn't accept was that the world had changed, and that with the advent of nuclear weapons there were no longer any linear victories in warfare.

It's over 60 years later and many conservatives STILL can't accept it. They think we need to "get tough" with Putin. We need to "get tough" with ISIS. We need to invade, kill the enemy, and come back home, just like we did in World War I and World War II. Over 60 years and failures in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and against terrorism apparently haven't taught these guys anything. MacArthur was right; in war there IS no substitute for victory, which is why we can't afford too many more wars. And we can NEVER afford a war with Russia.

 
More relevant is the fact that Russias nuclear arsenal is significantly greater than our own
I felt safe when we had more nukes than the Ruskies but we're in trouble now.
We are more likely to blow ourselves up anyway with the horrific incompetentency that the nuclear weapons have been handled in this country.
We can't even keep our celebrities noods safe.
Upton has some awesome ICBMs.
Incredibly Cushy Boob Melons
 
Back in 1951, General MacArthur realized that there was no conventional way for the United States to win the Korean War. The best that could be hoped for was a stalemate. Since this outcome went against everything he had believed his entire life ("no substitute for victory", etc.), MacArthur proposed the use of nuclear weapons. He didn't consider the consequences, that Russia, who at the time was China's ally, might retaliate against us. Truman and Dean Acheson did realize it. They vetoed the idea. MacArthur complained to the press that the President was hampering him, and Truman fired MacArthur. The Republicans, particularly conservatives, couldn't accept this. What they really couldn't accept was that the world had changed, and that with the advent of nuclear weapons there were no longer any linear victories in warfare.

It's over 60 years later and many conservatives STILL can't accept it. They think we need to "get tough" with Putin. We need to "get tough" with ISIS. We need to invade, kill the enemy, and come back home, just like we did in World War I and World War II. Over 60 years and failures in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and against terrorism apparently haven't taught these guys anything. MacArthur was right; in war there IS no substitute for victory, which is why we can't afford too many more wars. And we can NEVER afford a war with Russia.
Yes. Ignore evil and it will go away.

 
Russia and China are always going to do more or less what they want, because they know that we won't go to war with them no matter how large our military is. And of course we could flatten every building in Iran tomorrow with the military at its current size -- an inadequate supply of bombs isn't the reason why we're not attacking Iran.
I didn't bother reading the article, but I wanted to touch on your first point.

This didn't used to be the case. Russia and China do what they want because they know we won't do anything. But back during the Cold War, the reason Russia didn't do things is because the thought the US WOULD do something. I know everyone says they don't want another Cold War, but without it, Russia is now free to move around the cabin. They need to fear the US the same way they used to. We need to start calling their bluffs. Russia doesn't want a nuclear war with the US anymore than we want one with them.

Look at how Kennedy handled it during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That's what needs to happen again.
by not doing things you mean other than:

Czechoslovakia invasion, crushing the Hungarian Revolution, Berlin Crisis of 1961, supplying Vietnam, invasion of Afghanistan, shooting down KAL 007, militarizing the entire eastern bloc, deploying nuclear weaspons into Eastern Europe, the Warsaw Pact and a bunch more (someone call Billy Joel)
Of course there were always side skirmishes. But they happened from both sides. But was a nuclear missile ever fired? Did a huge Russian/US war ever happen? No. Because each side was afraid of mutual mass destruction. Sadly, the US is the only one worried about that now. Which gives Russia the upper hand.
Sorry, I'm not following where Russia has an upper hand? I will assume you mean Ukraine. If so that's not anything they haven't done during the Cold War in Hungary or Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. when you say there were more scared of the US.
You think Ukraine has the upper hand? :confused:
I think the West has the upper hand when it comes to Ukraine. But my feeling that way has nothing to do with your argument.

During the Cold War the Soviets shot a passenger airplane out of the air. Now in the present day, Russia did the same in Ukraine.

During the Cold War the Soviets invaded countries that were in their sphere of influence that tried to shake them off and move closer to the West. Now in the present day, Russia did the same to Ukraine and Georgia.

You are one arguing Soviets behaved themselves more during the Cold War due to a threat of nuclear war, but what is happening today, is the exact same things the Soviet Union did during the Cold War.

 
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Back in 1951, General MacArthur realized that there was no conventional way for the United States to win the Korean War. The best that could be hoped for was a stalemate. Since this outcome went against everything he had believed his entire life ("no substitute for victory", etc.), MacArthur proposed the use of nuclear weapons. He didn't consider the consequences, that Russia, who at the time was China's ally, might retaliate against us. Truman and Dean Acheson did realize it. They vetoed the idea. MacArthur complained to the press that the President was hampering him, and Truman fired MacArthur. The Republicans, particularly conservatives, couldn't accept this. What they really couldn't accept was that the world had changed, and that with the advent of nuclear weapons there were no longer any linear victories in warfare.

It's over 60 years later and many conservatives STILL can't accept it. They think we need to "get tough" with Putin. We need to "get tough" with ISIS. We need to invade, kill the enemy, and come back home, just like we did in World War I and World War II. Over 60 years and failures in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and against terrorism apparently haven't taught these guys anything. MacArthur was right; in war there IS no substitute for victory, which is why we can't afford too many more wars. And we can NEVER afford a war with Russia.
Yes. Ignore evil and it will go away.
You're being obtuse again. I think you asked me to remind you when you were.

 
OK.

Sorry Iron Sheik I just can't agree. Cuba was near us and the missiles there represented a threat, also there's that whole Monroe Doctrine thing. The Ukraine's not a member of NATO. I don't think it would be wise to go to war over Ukraine or threaten nuclear war.
I didn't say threaten nuclear war. But I want the Russians to fear the thought that we could go to nuclear war with them.
Under what conditions would you be willing to initiate a nuclear war against the Russians?

ETA. Because I can't think of any myself.
Why do you keep asking that? I'm not saying to initiate nuclear war. What I've continually said is that the Cold War worked because we both were afraid of nuclear war. Now only we are. Did you not hear Putin issue a warning to the US not to mess with "Nuclear Russia" last week? Does that sound like he's the least bit afraid of us? Oddly enough, we are afraid and we are technically "Nuclear America." He's getting no push back. Lines need to be drawn in the sand. Stalemates need to happen. Until this does, Russia just continues to defy the world. Are you OK with that? Because I'm not. I'm not cool with passenger airliners being shot out of the air. Countries being taken over because no one will stand with them. And why not? Because Russia has nuclear weapons? Well, we have them too. Draw those lines and let's see how fast Putin crosses them.
First off the Cold War didn't work.

The Cold War was basically won in 1948 when we lifted the blockade of Berlin with the Airlift. That was the decisive victory. After that, we spent the next 40 years squandering US goodwill by supporting corrupt dictators around the globe simply because they claimed to be anti-Communist. Sometimes we went to war for these guys, with terrible results. The Soviet Union post Stalin wasn't looking to conquer the world; they created a buffer zone in Eastern Europe because they were scared of future invasion. You claim that the Cold War prevented them from aggression because they were afraid of us, but what happened in 1956 when they crushed a rebellion in Hungary, or in 1968, when they did the same to the Czechs? Nothing. We did nothing, because just as now with regard to the Ukraine, we are helpless in such circumstances. And both Hungary and Czechoslovakia were much further west than Ukraine.

 

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