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Moss on Monday Night Football (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Dr. No
- Start date
Nightly Mistake
Footballguy
This. Moss lives for MNF and the spotlight, and now he's been traded away.joffer said:
wormburner
Footballguy
As a Moss owner, I can live with this.ponchsox said:
dagwood
Footballguy
lol
footballnerd
Footballguy
Revis had better STRETCH WELL and eat his Wheaties. Its gonna be a busy day if he does.Johnny Ice said:
ThePittbully
Footballguy
I have Harvin and Moss in two different leagues, wondering the same things. I'll prob start both Monday if I don't trade one first
Grahamburn
Footballguy
Moss is an obvious WR1. Harvin probably a high end WR3. I'm keeping both. If the offense gets back to how they were playing last season they'll both have value, and each would be startable if the matchup dictates it. The Vikings have several teams left on their schedule that can put up alot of points. I doubt Minnesota has too many games where Favre won't need to throw it 35+ times.
cstu
Footballguy
"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, burn me once, shame on — shame on you. Burn me — you can't get burned again."
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Funkley
Collar: Up
Such a cool game now to speculate on. As a Vikes fan it seems like everyone expects Rex to throw everything and the kitchen sink at Favre. I don't. I think the Jets take the same approach the Saints did opening night and sit back. Force the Vikings to be patient and dare the Vikes o-line to make holes. Everyone expecting fireworks might be disappointed.*If* AP can break a long run early the question will be can the Jets afford to keep sitting back.
ETA: so if the Jets sit back I see a modest 5-65 and maybe a short td on a fade or jump ball.
ETA: so if the Jets sit back I see a modest 5-65 and maybe a short td on a fade or jump ball.
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glock
"Don't grumble, give a whistle!"
I initially gambled in my auction on Big Ben as my QB2 behind Schaub, but traded him to a Roethlislover for Favre as the Moss>Minny rumors kicked in. Figured what the heck, even if the deal didn't go through...
We should have a "Who's starting Favre vs the Jets?" thread. With Schaub and a gimpy AJ up against the Gints this weekend I just may for excitment sake.
:rollthebones:
We should have a "Who's starting Favre vs the Jets?" thread. With Schaub and a gimpy AJ up against the Gints this weekend I just may for excitment sake.
:rollthebones:
Mile High
Footballguy
I don't get this whole Moss has anything to prove because of the Miami game. The whole NE offense was reduced to cheerleaders as the special teams/ D took it to Miami.
griff321
Footballguy
You must not know much about the inspired play calling of Childress/Bevel. A great play would be a PA pass to Moss on a fly route, but I almost guarantee a run off tackle by All Day.Ill be disappointed if the very first offensive play for Minn is not a deep ball thrown to a streaking Moss. Hit or miss - doesnt matter. Just want to see the attempt.
NinerFan49
Footballguy
I thought the article below might be of interest. Not good news for Moss or Favre fans.
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http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=5654643
Updated: October 6, 2010, 11:43 AM ET
Randy Moss misses target for Vikings
Minnesota's struggling passing game has ills that Moss can't cure
By Bill Barnwell
Football Outsiders
A good offense is better than the sum of its parts. With the reported deal for Randy Moss, the Minnesota Vikings are attempting to revitalize a passing offense that fell from fourth in DVOA a year ago to a stunning 30th this year. If you take a statistical look at what's changed about the Vikings offense, though, it's hard to imagine Moss serving as more than an extraneous part of a flawed passing game.
To succeed, a great passing offense needs receivers who can run every route on the route tree effectively. While some offenses (Houston) get by with one dominant receiver who can do anything you ask him to, virtually every great passing offense has a mix of receivers whose strengths play off the other guys in the mix.
The perfect example of such an offense, ironically, involves Moss. The 2007 Patriots -- the greatest passing offense in league history -- had a group of players who were all made better by the specialization of their roles. Moss worked down the sideline and was a devastating downfield threat on jump balls. Next to him was Wes Welker, who played off the fear of Moss by beating one-on-one matchups for 6-yard passes time after time. On the other side of the field, Donte' Stallworth and Jabar Gaffney served as slightly inferior mirror images of Moss and Welker, while tight end Ben Watson beat linebackers down the field and took advantage of stretched safeties on seam routes up the hashmarks. Finally, the Patriots used Kevin Faulk and Laurence Maroney as dumpoff receivers against a team's weakest defenders in coverage. Gaffney couldn't go do what Moss did, and Stallworth couldn't play the Welker role, but it didn't matter, the presence of all the complementary players made everyone look (and play) better.
Consider the 2009 Vikings. After signing the speedy Bernard Berrian the previous season, Minnesota needed a possession receiver to work underneath those deep routes and make tough catches. They tried to add T.J. Houshmandzadeh in free agency, but Houshmandzadeh chose the Seahawks over the Vikings. Percy Harvin was added in the first round of the draft, but Harvin's a speed merchant and still far from a refined route runner. With Brett Favre onboard, Minnesota needed a wide receiver who could effectively run the tougher routes over the middle that Favre and the West Coast offense rely on. The slant. The dig. The in.
That became the job of Sidney Rice, who had been considered an injury-prone bust through his first two seasons in Minnesota. While Rice isn't a dynamic downfield receiver the way that Berrian and Harvin are, he's tough, has ideal size and provides the route-running ability that a primary receiver in the West Coast offense needs. With Rice in tow, the Vikings' passing offense took off.
This year, Rice's injury has left the Vikings without a receiver who can effectively play off their deep threats, forcing Harvin and Berrian into roles they aren't particularly good at filling. Minnesota acquired Greg Camarillo during camp in the hopes that he could play that role, but Camarillo is still learning the playbook. While we don't have statistics for each specific route a receiver runs, the most obvious statistical signature of the change in the Vikings' offense comes in their completion percentage for intermediate-length passes.
On passes thrown within 6 yards of the line of scrimmage or less, the 2009 Vikings completed 77 percent of their passes. The 2010 Vikings are at 74 percent. When Favre threw the ball 15 or more yards downfield in 2009, he completed it 44 percent of the time; he's at the same rate in 2010.
When Favre threw the ball between 7 and 14 yards downfield in 2009, though, he completed his passes an impressive 71 percent of the time. In 2010, that figure is down to a staggering 45 percent. His overall completion percentage is down from 68.4 percent to 61.9 percent, and the Vikings' struggles to complete those intermediate routes is the biggest reason.
Can Moss be the player that fills that role? It doesn't appear likely. Historically, Moss' game has been similar to that of Harvin and Berrian, combining excellent speed with rare leaping ability. Although he has the size to go over the middle and make plays, it's never been his primary role. Although it's too small of a sample to be meaningful, Moss is only 2-of-6 on passes thrown in that intermediate range in 2010. He caught 26-of-42 (62 percent) of those throws in 2009, but it's reasonable to wonder after four mediocre games in 2010 whether that Moss is still available.
In the long run, if the Patriots were going to trade their mercurial wideout, there would have been better places for Moss to go. Baltimore, for one, could use a deep threat to play across from Anquan Boldin and Derrick Mason while Stallworth is out with an injury. Other teams like Tampa Bay and even Dallas would have benefited from Moss' abilities as a home run threat. But the 2010 Vikings? They need Sidney Rice, not Randy Moss.
Bill Barnwell is a writer for Football Outsiders.
=============================================================
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=5654643
Updated: October 6, 2010, 11:43 AM ET
Randy Moss misses target for Vikings
Minnesota's struggling passing game has ills that Moss can't cure
By Bill Barnwell
Football Outsiders
A good offense is better than the sum of its parts. With the reported deal for Randy Moss, the Minnesota Vikings are attempting to revitalize a passing offense that fell from fourth in DVOA a year ago to a stunning 30th this year. If you take a statistical look at what's changed about the Vikings offense, though, it's hard to imagine Moss serving as more than an extraneous part of a flawed passing game.
To succeed, a great passing offense needs receivers who can run every route on the route tree effectively. While some offenses (Houston) get by with one dominant receiver who can do anything you ask him to, virtually every great passing offense has a mix of receivers whose strengths play off the other guys in the mix.
The perfect example of such an offense, ironically, involves Moss. The 2007 Patriots -- the greatest passing offense in league history -- had a group of players who were all made better by the specialization of their roles. Moss worked down the sideline and was a devastating downfield threat on jump balls. Next to him was Wes Welker, who played off the fear of Moss by beating one-on-one matchups for 6-yard passes time after time. On the other side of the field, Donte' Stallworth and Jabar Gaffney served as slightly inferior mirror images of Moss and Welker, while tight end Ben Watson beat linebackers down the field and took advantage of stretched safeties on seam routes up the hashmarks. Finally, the Patriots used Kevin Faulk and Laurence Maroney as dumpoff receivers against a team's weakest defenders in coverage. Gaffney couldn't go do what Moss did, and Stallworth couldn't play the Welker role, but it didn't matter, the presence of all the complementary players made everyone look (and play) better.
Consider the 2009 Vikings. After signing the speedy Bernard Berrian the previous season, Minnesota needed a possession receiver to work underneath those deep routes and make tough catches. They tried to add T.J. Houshmandzadeh in free agency, but Houshmandzadeh chose the Seahawks over the Vikings. Percy Harvin was added in the first round of the draft, but Harvin's a speed merchant and still far from a refined route runner. With Brett Favre onboard, Minnesota needed a wide receiver who could effectively run the tougher routes over the middle that Favre and the West Coast offense rely on. The slant. The dig. The in.
That became the job of Sidney Rice, who had been considered an injury-prone bust through his first two seasons in Minnesota. While Rice isn't a dynamic downfield receiver the way that Berrian and Harvin are, he's tough, has ideal size and provides the route-running ability that a primary receiver in the West Coast offense needs. With Rice in tow, the Vikings' passing offense took off.
This year, Rice's injury has left the Vikings without a receiver who can effectively play off their deep threats, forcing Harvin and Berrian into roles they aren't particularly good at filling. Minnesota acquired Greg Camarillo during camp in the hopes that he could play that role, but Camarillo is still learning the playbook. While we don't have statistics for each specific route a receiver runs, the most obvious statistical signature of the change in the Vikings' offense comes in their completion percentage for intermediate-length passes.
On passes thrown within 6 yards of the line of scrimmage or less, the 2009 Vikings completed 77 percent of their passes. The 2010 Vikings are at 74 percent. When Favre threw the ball 15 or more yards downfield in 2009, he completed it 44 percent of the time; he's at the same rate in 2010.
When Favre threw the ball between 7 and 14 yards downfield in 2009, though, he completed his passes an impressive 71 percent of the time. In 2010, that figure is down to a staggering 45 percent. His overall completion percentage is down from 68.4 percent to 61.9 percent, and the Vikings' struggles to complete those intermediate routes is the biggest reason.
Can Moss be the player that fills that role? It doesn't appear likely. Historically, Moss' game has been similar to that of Harvin and Berrian, combining excellent speed with rare leaping ability. Although he has the size to go over the middle and make plays, it's never been his primary role. Although it's too small of a sample to be meaningful, Moss is only 2-of-6 on passes thrown in that intermediate range in 2010. He caught 26-of-42 (62 percent) of those throws in 2009, but it's reasonable to wonder after four mediocre games in 2010 whether that Moss is still available.
In the long run, if the Patriots were going to trade their mercurial wideout, there would have been better places for Moss to go. Baltimore, for one, could use a deep threat to play across from Anquan Boldin and Derrick Mason while Stallworth is out with an injury. Other teams like Tampa Bay and even Dallas would have benefited from Moss' abilities as a home run threat. But the 2010 Vikings? They need Sidney Rice, not Randy Moss.
Bill Barnwell is a writer for Football Outsiders.
ponchsox
Footballguy
packersfan
Footballguy
I like the work done by Football Outsiders but that's a really horrific comparison.
griff321
Footballguy
@ ^^That was a terrible read and some horrible analysis on the Vikings O. Harvin may not be a very skilled route runner but he has an amazing knack at settling into holes under and inside zones out of the slot. We all saw that split out wide Harvin's play left much to be desired and his constant problems off the field just compounded the problem. Not to mention Brett literally was only able to work on timing with him in game. Now that Moss bumps Percy back down to the slot he can take advantage of the constant mismatches and be that outstanding third down conversion weapon once again.
How these guys dismiss the role of Shiancoe is beyond belief, but yet they mention Watson as a major Pats contributor who couldn't hold Shank's oversized jock strap. Shiancoe was a giant part of helping the Vikings in the intermediate routes because once again he had LBs covering him and Favre could feast on the mismatch. This year teams are able to double him because B-Twice just isn't a threat.
Berrian is horrible against teams #1 guy but once again he now garners lesser coverage.
Before now teams know that we just don't have a guy that can go up and get the ball deep so they're moving up and that's hurting everything underneath. Now I could see saying that maybe teams think Favre's elbow just will not allow us to get a good pass deep, so why expect that to change with Moss, but to say that the Vikes don't have the weapons to take advantage of Moss' ability to garner additional attention is ignorant at best.
If anything this article should be how the Patriots will look like the Vikings did in the first three games without a Moss type player.
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encaitar
Footballguy
Actually, that whole article is just terrible. Sidney Rice was the Vikings' underneath guy last year? Really? He's not a dynamic downfield threat? He was second in the league in YPA last year. Please. How about you don't write an article about the Vikings if you didn't watch them play last year. Wow.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
Good posting re: crapping on that article. Harvin and Berrian / jump ball Didn't have much time to watch any Viking games last year, I guess.
Didn't have much time to watch any Viking games last year, I guess.
griff321
Footballguy
Bevell not easing Moss into things:
Randy Moss had zero catches in his final game in a Patriots uniform last week against Miami. Vikings offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell said that won't be the case when Moss makes his Vikings season debut Monday night against the Jets.
"Immediately you start to draft up things to try and get him the ball," Bevell said Friday. "You don't want to come out of a game and have zero catches. You'd like to be able to factor him in in any way and put the ball in his hands."
Moss will have had only three practices before Monday's game and he's learning a new system and new verbiage. Bevell said Moss might need to rely on Brett Favre and the players around him at times for help on his assignments. But Bevell said Moss won't be limited in the game plan.
"We're going to do as much as we can," Bevell said. "Obviously the whole playbook is not going to be open. But there's going to be a lot that we expect of him. He's a unique individual. He's a unique player. Obviously his height, his speed, his ball skills. Just another piece to the puzzle to be able to have a playmaker to try and get the ball to."
Percy Harvin said Thursday that Moss' arrival means he'll be able to play in the slot a lot more now. Bevell acknowledged that likelihood, but he said he wants to move Moss and Harvin around to keep defenses on their toes.
"We don't want to get too specific and say, 'Hey, he's always going to be here,'" Bevell said. "Then defenses have the ability to say, 'Alright, do we want to take Percy Harvin out? Or we can double here or double over there or only single this guy.' We kind of want him to be 'Where's Waldo?' a little bit. Maybe put Randy inside at times, put Percy inside at times and move them around. It will be harder on coverages."
Much of the talk since the trade has focused on Moss' impact on the passing game, but the Vikings believe he'll also help the running game because teams will have to play more honest and not crowd the box to stop Adrian Peterson.
"That was my initial thought when I heard the news," Peterson said. "It goes back to defenses have to pick their poison.
Randy Moss had zero catches in his final game in a Patriots uniform last week against Miami. Vikings offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell said that won't be the case when Moss makes his Vikings season debut Monday night against the Jets.
"Immediately you start to draft up things to try and get him the ball," Bevell said Friday. "You don't want to come out of a game and have zero catches. You'd like to be able to factor him in in any way and put the ball in his hands."
Moss will have had only three practices before Monday's game and he's learning a new system and new verbiage. Bevell said Moss might need to rely on Brett Favre and the players around him at times for help on his assignments. But Bevell said Moss won't be limited in the game plan.
"We're going to do as much as we can," Bevell said. "Obviously the whole playbook is not going to be open. But there's going to be a lot that we expect of him. He's a unique individual. He's a unique player. Obviously his height, his speed, his ball skills. Just another piece to the puzzle to be able to have a playmaker to try and get the ball to."
Percy Harvin said Thursday that Moss' arrival means he'll be able to play in the slot a lot more now. Bevell acknowledged that likelihood, but he said he wants to move Moss and Harvin around to keep defenses on their toes.
"We don't want to get too specific and say, 'Hey, he's always going to be here,'" Bevell said. "Then defenses have the ability to say, 'Alright, do we want to take Percy Harvin out? Or we can double here or double over there or only single this guy.' We kind of want him to be 'Where's Waldo?' a little bit. Maybe put Randy inside at times, put Percy inside at times and move them around. It will be harder on coverages."
Much of the talk since the trade has focused on Moss' impact on the passing game, but the Vikings believe he'll also help the running game because teams will have to play more honest and not crowd the box to stop Adrian Peterson.
"That was my initial thought when I heard the news," Peterson said. "It goes back to defenses have to pick their poison.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
Moss will have a solid day. I'll take a motivated Moss and Farve over Revis and the Jet defense. I just have a hard time believing Farve doesn't "get" that all eyes will be on this matchup and not want his newly required Hofer shown up on the first day. I don't own Moss but think he has startable fantasy numbers for sure.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
some current props at Sportsbook.com
