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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff Clavin
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Yeah, the Rockets would kill it in the D-League.
Britney Spears
guest speaker
It's not close because of efficiency and defense. I don't know what the numbers say, but this is what my eyes tell me.'tommyGunZ said:
Britney Spears
guest speaker
Those Sunday NBC games were staged to trick us into thinking Jordan was good.'Premier said:"young and impressionable"
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Well yeah, so he could make more cash, right? And at that point the Cavs knew the jig was up...But weren't the Cavs saying the whole time they wouldn't trade him? Didn't that happen?Technically, they did trade him to Miami.'Notorious T.R.E. said:
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Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
No need to make this a racial thing, GB.Well yeah, so he could make more cash, right? And at that point the Cavs knew the jig was up...But weren't the Cavs saying the whole time they wouldn't trade him? Didn't that happen?Technically, they did trade him to Miami.'Notorious T.R.E. said:
Who Dat Ninja?
Footballguy
If they can grab Robbie Hummel away from the TWolves they'll have the core of the Purdue Boilermakers squad, and a lock for the sweet 16 in the NCAA tourney in 2010-11.'Abraham said:
the moops
Footballguy
I can't believe nobody was willing to offer up more than a 2nd round pick for Lee? Word is that they are going to cut Moore and trade Johnson. And Sean Williams is useless and has a non guaranteed contract.Good deal for the Celts. Makes for a very nice guard rotation (Rondo, Terry, Bradley, Lee).'scoobus said:
Bobcat10
Footballguy
They traded him to aquire assets, not to allow Lebron to make more money, after Lebron decided not to come back.Not sure how they'd have justified not trading him to a fanbase that just got #### on.Well yeah, so he could make more cash, right? And at that point the Cavs knew the jig was up...But weren't the Cavs saying the whole time they wouldn't trade him? Didn't that happen?Technically, they did trade him to Miami.'Notorious T.R.E. said:
Max Power
Footballguy
MY early Friday drunken NBA report...
Howard rumors will not stop regardless of his agents comments.
Bulls will still match on Asik. Call me crazy, but their offseason doesn't make sense otherwise. Unless they are talking a long term extension with Taj.
Bynum isn't going to Cleveland and wont be traded.
The Celts are going to be damn good this year if everyone stays healthy.
The Lakers Bench still sucks and they won't make it out of the West as is.
Knicks are a #6 seed in the east.
Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe
1992 >>>>> 2012
I didn't see that coming trade of the week - Rip Hamilton to PHX for a 2nd round pick
Howard rumors will not stop regardless of his agents comments.
Bulls will still match on Asik. Call me crazy, but their offseason doesn't make sense otherwise. Unless they are talking a long term extension with Taj.
Bynum isn't going to Cleveland and wont be traded.
The Celts are going to be damn good this year if everyone stays healthy.
The Lakers Bench still sucks and they won't make it out of the West as is.
Knicks are a #6 seed in the east.
Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe
1992 >>>>> 2012
I didn't see that coming trade of the week - Rip Hamilton to PHX for a 2nd round pick
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
If the deal to LA doesn't happen for Howard, it won't be because he won't sign an extension (since LAL probably believes that once they get him there, he won't want to leave); it will be because Bynum refuses to sign with Orlando or Cleveland, and you can blame him? Why give up his right to go where he wants, just to help the Lakers trade him to a team he probably wouldn't want to sign with anyway?
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't believe that's the holdup. Bynum wants max dollars and will go to whoever is willing to pay him. The hold up is Orlando. They are simply doing what Denver did with Carmelo: holding out for as much as they can get. They'll end up trading him before the season starts, but they think the longer they wait, the more they'll get. And they're probably right.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
True, but I'm very curious to know what "more" is.DEN was negotiating with a team that had multiple young assets. DEN wanted them all, NYK wanted to keep some.Right now, ORL is being offered bad draft picks and cap relief. Are there some good draft picks they are holding out for? I don't know what bad contracts CLE and LAL have offered to take back, but I'd assume they've offered to take back almost all of them already. If not, what else have they offered?At this point, I'm not seenig an ORL-LAL-CLE deal that makes more sense than taking a chance on getting Howard to stay.BTW, It is funny the way Bynum is made out in all of this. "Of course CLE should mortgage the future for Bynum. He'll re-sign because he doesn't give a #### where he plays. He's just there to cash a paycheck". Nothing wrong with that (my beloved Rasheed dropped the "CTC" comment), but it's not a great description of someone you are trading every non-Irving asset for. I agree though, ORL needs to make this deal before the season starts. Bynum just played a full, healthy season. ORL needs to get this deal done before CLE remembers just why that was so shocking to everyone (you know, assuming somebody comes up with something ORL actually wants).
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Abraham
Footballguy
I think the leverage drops by the day. There are two teams in a position to offer something of value for a rental: Houston (picks and young players) and Lal. I'm pretty sure Houston could take back more crap contracts than the lakers.
At some point one of those two teams is going to say "we are standing pat for now" and all leverage goes out the window.
I imagine the leak that Howard would sign with the lakers came from Howard and then his agent found him and said "quit being an idiot....if you leak this as a way to get to the lakers and then DONT sign right away, you'll ruin your rep even more than you already have.".
Quick side question. If howard does end up in the west, would the nba make bosh or Garnett a center on the all star ballot (and would they make Duncan a forward) or do you think they would be fine with Noah or horford starting the all star game?
At some point one of those two teams is going to say "we are standing pat for now" and all leverage goes out the window.
I imagine the leak that Howard would sign with the lakers came from Howard and then his agent found him and said "quit being an idiot....if you leak this as a way to get to the lakers and then DONT sign right away, you'll ruin your rep even more than you already have.".
Quick side question. If howard does end up in the west, would the nba make bosh or Garnett a center on the all star ballot (and would they make Duncan a forward) or do you think they would be fine with Noah or horford starting the all star game?
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
ORL doesn't want young players. They want draft picks and to shed bad contracts. Houston and Cleveland both have multiple picks to offer and can take more bad contracts than LA. Cleveland can offer Varejao who could be traded for a pick at the deadline. They also have Gibson and Walton expirings worth about $9-10 mil I believe. Not sure what the Rockets have in that department. Houston is much more willing to rent Howard (or Bynum I assume) than Cleveland. If I were Orlando I would send DH direct to Houston for as much as they can get. Not sure why they want to involve the Lakers, as that requires a third team and I don't think they end up with anything more by going that route. But I won't complain if Cleveland ends up with an extended Bynum or even a Bynum rental if they don't give up too much.
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Abraham
Footballguy
Rockets can Offer the raptors lottery pick and the mavs pick as long as its not top 20 (iirc). They have Martin expiring (12 million) as well as Patrick Patterson (team option).
I agree that the magic most want to get rid of contracts. I think the constant swirl of a 3 team deal has to do with no one team being able to absorb Howard, Hedo, richardson, Duhon, and bass. Iirc, if Martin is included the rockets could absorb Howard and two others even if Asik is signed.
I agree that the magic most want to get rid of contracts. I think the constant swirl of a 3 team deal has to do with no one team being able to absorb Howard, Hedo, richardson, Duhon, and bass. Iirc, if Martin is included the rockets could absorb Howard and two others even if Asik is signed.
the moops
Footballguy
Not sure about Bosh, but Garnett played a huge majority of his minutes at the 5 last year. And I imagine he will play a similar percentage this year.
From what I understand (and I could be wrong), he (and Bynum) aren't going to sign "extensions" with their new teams during the season. Supposedly, for the same reason Chris Paul rejected the Clippers extension offer, it is much better financially to play out the season and then re-sign with your team as a free agent.So, both things could be true. Apparently, Dwight has assured the Lakers that he would remain with them long term. But, that does not mean he will actually sign anything until after the season. Hence, he's not going to "sign an extension."
Bynum is an idiot. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but from what I've read, it's more beneficial to him to sign post-season. So, that's a good reason for him to refuse to sign an extension with anyone.However, Bynum has played one healthy season. And, that was a shortened (albeit more physically demanding) season. That dude should jump on any max offer that gets put in front of him as soon as possible. He's having a knee procedure this summer. If he needs to have another major surgery next season, he can kiss any max extension goodbye.And, go where he wants? Depends. He's not so stupid that he'll leave a max contract on the table to sign for an MLE. So, he's going to go to a team with cap space? Who are they? Does he want to play in one of those places. The NBA has a salary cap. Unless he's willing to give up $100M, he can't really go wherever he wants.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
He is quoted as saying he is going to test free agency. That is different than not signing an extension.
In what way?If you don't sign an extension, you become a FA. At that point, you are "test[ing] free agency."ETA: Also, from what I've heard, all agents are urging their max-worthy clients to not sign an extension and "test free agency." The reason is that they get a fifth guaranteed year on their max contract re-signing with the team that has their Bird rights (and only the Lakers would have those if he goes to the Lakers) by going that route.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
It's been all over the radio here that the Lakers don't care what Howard is saying about whether he'll sign now or not - they want to deal for him regardless.
As Gdogg points out, Bynum will end up signing a max deal with whoever he ends up with.
The sticking point is really Orlando and what they're willing to accept in return. They should be making a deal for Bynum, if they unload some salaries as well so much the better, but really the only extremely bad contract they have is Turkoglu and he comes off the books in 2 years anyway.
As Gdogg points out, Bynum will end up signing a max deal with whoever he ends up with.
The sticking point is really Orlando and what they're willing to accept in return. They should be making a deal for Bynum, if they unload some salaries as well so much the better, but really the only extremely bad contract they have is Turkoglu and he comes off the books in 2 years anyway.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
You're crazy! They are talking extension with Taj but I don't think they will agree on anything unless Taj is willing to take much less than he'd be worth on the open market.How doesn't the offseason make sense? It makes total sense. They are trying to pay no luxury tax or, at most, very little. (I think the former.)
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Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Bold is correct. Right now Bynum and Howard can only sign 3 year extensions. After this season they can sign 5 year max deal.After this season Dallas will have cap space for a max player.
Abraham
Footballguy
I realize the Lakers can offer Bynum, but after playing around with the trade machine it looks like they can't take back Hedo (much less Richardson, Duhon, or Bass as well) without getting another team involved or adding in their own undesirable contracts. They would have to move out contracts with two years on them (Black, MWP) to get back Hedo's deal that also has 2 years. Makes no sense for Orlando. A one-for-one deal of Bynum for Howard works, but I don't see that getting done. However, THIS trade would work....
LAL sends Gasol and Bynum
Magic sends Howard, HEdo, Richardson, Duhon
Houston sends Martin, Tony Douglas, and the Mavs pick
LAL gets Howard, Hedo, and Richardson
Magic get Bynum, Kevin Martin, and Toney Douglas and the Mavs pick
Rockets get Gasol.
LAL sends Gasol and Bynum
Magic sends Howard, HEdo, Richardson, Duhon
Houston sends Martin, Tony Douglas, and the Mavs pick
LAL gets Howard, Hedo, and Richardson
Magic get Bynum, Kevin Martin, and Toney Douglas and the Mavs pick
Rockets get Gasol.
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That trade makes the Lakers worse. Rejected.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
All of these trades seem to hinge on someone having an actual gun to the heads of Lakers management.
Then, that team won't be the Lakers. Why would they trade both Pau and Bynum to get Howard? That deal makes no sense at all.The reports out there are that the Lakers would be amenable to taking on Richardson with Howard, but not Hedo. Start the trade machine with the premise that Howard, Gasol and Richardson are Lakers, and Bynum is not and you're off.Not to mention, the Rockets in that deal are making out like bandits. They give up Martin and Douglas and a crappy pick, but get back Gasol, while the Lakers are giving up not just Bynum, but also Gasol and the Magic are giving up Howard. Come on...
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Abraham
Footballguy
You're right, it does seem heavy handed against them. But I simply can not imagine a scenario where Orlando trades Howard without getting rid of most/all of Hedo, Richardson, Duhon, and Bass. Losing a player of Howard's caliber means blowing up the whole system and those contracts are so onerous (without a star player in tow) that I think the reason the Nets deal didn't happen and no deal has happened to date is that Orlando will not be parting with Howard without shedding a ton of salary. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the final trade - whether it be today or at the trade deadline - will look very lopsided against the Magic in terms of the talent and picks they receive.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Orlando's running out of options. And regardless of the ticking clock against them, LA isn't going to do something stupid to make room for them.
The Magic are trying to hit the reset button. I don't think they take back Bynum. They have to give him a max extension. Taking Bynum limits the other assets they might acquire. That's why there is inclusion of another team. They need someone who has the assets that the Magic want (picks, cheap, young talent contracts and someone to take on their bad contracts).'Abraham said:
It's why Cleveland has come up. The Cavs, reportedly, are very interested in Bynum. Bynum, supposedly, is interested in them with Kyrie Irving. They have the ability to trade Varajao and others (Thompson) + picks to get Bynum. Those assets are more attractive to the Magic than Bynum because it allows them to rebuild without albatross contracts on the books.
The Magic are holding out for the best combo of picks, small contracts on young players and the deal that will allow them to unload the most onerous of their contracts, including Richardson and Hedo.
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JMon348
Footballguy
Orlando gets three expiring contracts (Kevin Martin, Josh McRoberts, Andrew Goudelock), two rookies (Jeremy Lamb and Royce White) and two 2013 no. 1s (Toronto and Houston).
L.A. gets Howard and turkoglu
Houston gets Bynum, Glen Davis, Jason Richardson and Steve Blake.
So Orlando chops $22-24 million in 2012-13 salary (plus the 2014 and 2015 savings), Houston adds about $20 million, and the Lakers add $7.5 million (plus tax penalties).
Sportsguy's idea.
L.A. gets Howard and turkoglu
Houston gets Bynum, Glen Davis, Jason Richardson and Steve Blake.
So Orlando chops $22-24 million in 2012-13 salary (plus the 2014 and 2015 savings), Houston adds about $20 million, and the Lakers add $7.5 million (plus tax penalties).
Sportsguy's idea.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
So Houston gives Kevin Martin, 2 dudes just drafted in the first and 2 more firsts for Bynum?Edit: Seems like they'd just be better off getting Howard.
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Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
MSG down $101mm in value over the last five days.
Related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiM91tc1fk
Related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiM91tc1fk
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
http://observer.com/2012/07/msg-stock-jeremy-lin-effect-leaving-07172012/Some good graphics on that one.MSG down $101mm in value over the last five days.
Related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiM91tc1fk
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Would Jeremy Lin make $5m more in endorsements in nyc than he would in houston? If so, bad idea signing that.
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Abraham
Footballguy
Doubtful. For starters, he isn't exactly shilling for a furniture store. He's going to get many/most of the same endorsements anyway. Secondly, the new York market is huge but there are also a number of sports stars there already (Jeter, eli, tebow, Carmelo). Lin is now the guy in houston. That said, I don't think it ever occurred to him that he wouldn't be back in new York.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
It seems that the issue was Lin had an offer from Houston. Nyk wanted him to get an offer to set the market. Lin told nyk the offer and nyk said they'd match. The Lin goes back to houston and they up the poison pill. Nyk didnt like that he went back to squeeze more money out of hou/nyk.
Abraham
Footballguy
I'm not sure there was any squeezing on Lins part. I think the rockets got the message (from Lin) that the knicks would match. He hadn't signed a deal yet. They changed their offer. Lin was left with the option of walking away from an offer worth more money (and thus having no offers on the table at all) or signing the new deal - the new more lucrative deal - placed in front of him. Is it possible he figured the knocks would still match? Probably.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Moreso than...... (trying to think of one Astro).... (still thinking).... ummm Arian Foster?
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Bagwell?
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Waiting for the ZOMG Luxury Tax!!!!! crowd to chime in.
Britney Spears
guest speaker
You can't envision Orlando dealing Howard without unloading bad contracts. So your conclusion is that the Rockets will make out like bandits. Makes sense.'Abraham said:
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