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NCAA HOOPS THREAD! -- K petitions to get Maui Jim Maui Invitational moved to Transylvania (2 Viewers)

Who is worse?


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Specifically, Arizona was garbage the first 3 games and for bits and pieces without key guys. Full strength metrics from Dec 1 forward would show them as a 1 seed imo
I figured the same but went back and looked.  On Dec. 1, they were ranked 16th, then peaked at 14 around the beginning of January, but slid from there all the way to 27th in February before getting to where they are now at 21.  So from December 1 to now they actually slipped a few spots in efficiency.  Their defense went from 106th to 70th in the last 4 weeks or so, so there's that I guess.  

 
I figured the same but went back and looked.  On Dec. 1, they were ranked 16th, then peaked at 14 around the beginning of January, but slid from there all the way to 27th in February before getting to where they are now at 21.  So from December 1 to now they actually slipped a few spots in efficiency.  Their defense went from 106th to 70th in the last 4 weeks or so, so there's that I guess.  
Look at key player absences ...you’re only looking at results 

Alkins, Trier and the coach missed games post dec 1

 
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Look at key player absences ...you’re only looking at results 
When did missing players on Arizona return?  Trier missed only two games, right?  Who am I missing?  It doesn't look like at any point from December to now that Arizona got significantly better.  If they have players just now returning for the tournament that'd be a different story and obviously something to include. 

Michael Porter Jr. sort of fits this mold and gives Mizzou a pretty large question mark, but his first game back was less than stellar so who knows there.  

 
When did missing players on Arizona return?  Trier missed only two games, right?  Who am I missing?  It doesn't look like at any point from December to now that Arizona got significantly better.  If they have players just now returning for the tournament that'd be a different story and obviously something to include. 

Michael Porter Jr. sort of fits this mold and gives Mizzou a pretty large question mark, but his first game back was less than stellar so who knows there.  
Agree with Missouri, huge question mark.

alkins wasn’t his self for several weeks.  And trier missed two games, one was a loss that wouldn’t have been.  Both guys are nba draft picks. 

One last point on Az, Ayton has been a different player the last month....stats will substantiate that. He’s easily the best player in college basketball.  

 
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Agree with Missouri, huge question mark.

alkins wasn’t his self for several weeks.  And trier missed two games, one was a loss that wouldn’t have been.  Both guys are nba draft picks. 

One last pint in Az, Ayton has been a different player the last month....stats will substantiate that.
I don't think we're really disagreeing much here and I'm not trying to downplay Arizona's chances. The stats do show them jumping up 5 spots in just this last week which substantiates what you are saying, but it's still not that far from where they were in December.  I was originally surprised by this because I remember them being pretty bad at the beginning of the season so I assumed there would've been a big bump in their efficiency but it really hasn't happened.  

 
I don't think we're really disagreeing much here and I'm not trying to downplay Arizona's chances. The stats do show them jumping up 5 spots in just this last week which substantiates what you are saying, but it's still not that far from where they were in December.  I was originally surprised by this because I remember them being pretty bad at the beginning of the season so I assumed there would've been a big bump in their efficiency but it really hasn't happened.  
Well they are already near the top in offensive efficiency so not a ton of room to improve there.  D efficiency has catapulted 30ish spots but Kenpom Will continue to punish the overall Ranking due to the early season stuff.  All of that being said the defense is just okay, but certainly not as bad as the year end efficiency metrics would lead one to believe.  Particularly Trier and Cartwright are inconsistent on the perimeter.  Ayton slowly realizing he can block everything.  

 
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Can someone explain North Carolina to me?  I haven't watched them at all this year.  They're ranked 4th in offensive efficiency, but when you look at the individual factors that feed that ranking, the only thing that stands out is their offensive rebounding.  Do they just throw up a bunch of bricks knowing they will get the put back?  Their defense is even more perplexing.  34th overall but not one area where they are better than average.  In fact they are downright mediocre in opponent FG% and in creating turnovers.  They give up tons of three pointers too.  

 
Scoresman said:
Can someone explain North Carolina to me?  I haven't watched them at all this year.  They're ranked 4th in offensive efficiency, but when you look at the individual factors that feed that ranking, the only thing that stands out is their offensive rebounding.  Do they just throw up a bunch of bricks knowing they will get the put back?  Their defense is even more perplexing.  34th overall but not one area where they are better than average.  In fact they are downright mediocre in opponent FG% and in creating turnovers.  They give up tons of three pointers too.  
If you're looking at KenPom, the efficiency numbers are adjusted for SOS, and UNC had the number 1 SOS this year.  The four factors numbers are not adjusted for SOS while the efficiency numbers are.  Further, they did have the 63rd best TO% this year on offense, which is pretty solid.  They're not throwing away many chances and creating a lot of second chances on offense.

Defensively, not quite sure what you were looking at but they were 23rd in not fouling, 59th in not allowing ORB, and 16th in defensive 2PT%.  That is certainly good.

 
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If you're looking at KenPom, the efficiency numbers are adjusted for SOS, and UNC had the number 1 SOS this year.  The four factors numbers are not adjusted for SOS while the efficiency numbers are.  Further, they did have the 63rd best TO% this year on offense, which is pretty solid.  They're not giving up many chances and creating a lot of second chances on offense.

Defensively, not quite sure what you were looking at but they were 23rd in not fouling, 59th in not allowing ORB, and 16th in defensive 2PT%.  That is certainly good.
Yeah I realized afterwards about the SoS affecting the overall.  It's amazing how much it affects the various factors.  

Defensively, I think we're looking at the same thing except for 2 pt %.  23rd in not fouling, or FT rate, is good but is also the one factor that should be contributing the least to the overall.  16th in defensive 2 pt% sounds odd because they are approaching 200th in Defensive Effective Field goal percentage which is what I was looking at.  

 
Peyton Marino said:
the odds posted offshore currently factor in all of the kenpom/t-rank/sagarin/etc efficiency metrics, as well as team events like injuries/missing players, and anything else you could think of.  if you're trying to pick the "best" bracket, you're not going to do better than using those (as close to gametime as possible) :shrug:
Are you talking about like regional futures, using those odds?  As much of a degen as I am I should have thought of using those before, but I never have.

 
Fwiw - everyone can count on WVU not making it past this weekend. Next weekend the east is playing at TD garden in Boston. There is NO CHANCE wvu makes it there. If they did I would bring my entire family to go see them. Clearly this not happening, not a chance. 

 
Yeah I realized afterwards about the SoS affecting the overall.  It's amazing how much it affects the various factors.  

Defensively, I think we're looking at the same thing except for 2 pt %.  23rd in not fouling, or FT rate, is good but is also the one factor that should be contributing the least to the overall.  16th in defensive 2 pt% sounds odd because they are approaching 200th in Defensive Effective Field goal percentage which is what I was looking at.  
I see them at 136 in defensive eFG%.  certainly not much better than average but not terrible either.  their defensive 3P% was pretty bad (285th) which is primarily responsible for the discrepancy.  def 3P% is one of the flukier stats and given that UNC teams aren't historically that bad in 3P defense, I'd be willing to bet on some regression there.

 
Are you talking about like regional futures, using those odds?  As much of a degen as I am I should have thought of using those before, but I never have.
I was mostly thinking about the first round lines, but for later rounds I think the futures can be helpful as well.

 
Since Feb 1 WVU has:

8-4 overall record

losses:  OSU, @KU, @UT, @KU (B12 tourney)

wins:  KSU, @OU, TCU, @BU, ISU, TT, BU, TT

played 3 non-tournament teams (OSU, ISU, BU)

lost to 1 non-tourney team:  OSU

beaten 7 tournament teams (-BU)

Lost 2 games (half of those 4) to #1 seed KU (while they don’t have in their region!)

if you believe the B12 is a strong conference this season, WVUs body of work the last 4-5 weeks is strong itself. 

 
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Someone talk me out of betting the farm on Va Tech vs Bama.  Line seems way off for a bama team that struggled down the stretch.

 
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cheese said:
Yes that was part of my point, but I’m still surprised and interested in those post dec1 numbers he posted. 
Getting the band back together. I am contacting the guys from the 2016 and 2017 $1 bracket draft to see if they want to get a draft going tonight. We have 5 or 6 that are in for sure. Looking for a couple more.

 
Or maybe it was because North Carolina was better this season than both Kentucky and Arizona this season by every reasonable measure (RPI, Ken Pom, Sagarin, Quadrant 1 wins, etc.) and thus earned the right to favorable geographic treatment in the early rounds?

Also, just last year UNC and Kentucky played a regional final in Memphis, Tennessee- more convenient for UK's fan base than UNC's, closer to Kentucky than NC and closer to Lexington than Chapel Hill ... despite UNC being the region's 1 seed and Kentucky being in line to be shipped out west to play Gonzaga instead:shrug:
You just proved my point. Money and bias. Pure and simple. Distance between Lexington to Memphis and Chapel hill to Memphis is nit picking. Peowers that be wanted that matchup. Money. The money that game generated for the city, alone, is probably difficult to truly understand. 

Everyone can see it their own way. We all do. It's pretty simple that Duke And UNC, if they have a +.500 season, never get asked to move outside the general NC area for the first two games.  That's bias.

 
Kentucky stunk this year.   They just had a great run in their tournament.  NC would've been a #1 seed if they didn't lose to the #1 team in the country.  
It's not about whether they "stunk" (you must be a Wildcat fan..only Wildcat fans agree that a top 25 team that won the SEC who got half their league in the tournament Stunk. I know, if UK isn't top 4 from start to finish and make the final 4 then they stunk...I get it).  Anyway, not about whether they stunk. that wasn't the point. The point is certain teams with great followings always seem to find themselves in Kansas and Texas, etc while the darling teams in North Carolina wouldn't know what the Mississippi river looked like if they had to.

 
Anyone but UCLA. Steve Alford is the biggest wank ever. Anyone who allowed the Ball family into their program should be fired and forced to sleep naked in Bill Walton's teepee.
I was more asking about the match up with Florida, but your logic is solid here.

Gator Country is split. Apparently the Bonnies outside shooting ability will be a nightmare for UF's poor 3-pt defense while UCLA's Welsh will be a nightmare for Florida's poor interior defense.

 
I was more asking about the match up with Florida, but your logic is solid here.

Gator Country is split. Apparently the Bonnies outside shooting ability will be a nightmare for UF's poor 3-pt defense while UCLA's Welsh will be a nightmare for Florida's poor interior defense.
Florida is losing either way

 
The whole idea of 11 seed play in games seems wrong to me. No idea if the results back me up here but in my mind puts the 6 seed at a disadvantage letting one of these teams get rid of opening tournament jitters and coming into their opening game of the field of 64 with some momentum.

 
I was more asking about the match up with Florida, but your logic is solid here.

Gator Country is split. Apparently the Bonnies outside shooting ability will be a nightmare for UF's poor 3-pt defense while UCLA's Welsh will be a nightmare for Florida's poor interior defense.
Fl kinda sucks.  They are losing early to somebody

 
The whole idea of 11 seed play in games seems wrong to me. No idea if the results back me up here but in my mind puts the 6 seed at a disadvantage letting one of these teams get rid of opening tournament jitters and coming into their opening game of the field of 64 with some momentum.
2011 - VCU won a First Four game and went to the Final Four

2012 - USF won and then beat 5 seed Temple

2013 - Lasalle won and then beat 4 seed K-State and 12 seed Ole Miss

2014 - Tennessee won and then beat 6 seed UMass and 14 seed Mercer (who had beaten Duke).  They almost knocked off 2 seed Michigan in Sweet 16.

2015 - Dayton won on their home court and then beat 6 seed Providence

2016 - Wichita St won and then beat 6 seed Arizona

2017 - USC won and then beat 6 seed SMU

So basically every single year one first four winner advances at least to the Round of 32.  

 
The whole idea of 11 seed play in games seems wrong to me. No idea if the results back me up here but in my mind puts the 6 seed at a disadvantage letting one of these teams get rid of opening tournament jitters and coming into their opening game of the field of 64 with some momentum.
I'm against 68 teams in general but I dont like the idea of only making 16's play in the play in game. They won their conference and deserve to be in the "real" tournament IMO. To me, the last 8 at large teams should have to earn their spots.

But i do see how it could be a disadvantage for the 6's. Easy fix, get rid of the last 4 at large. I dont need to see teams that finished 8th in a big league with a .500 record get a shot at the title.

 

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