Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Oh boy.
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NCAA HOOPS THREAD! -- K petitions to get Maui Jim Maui Invitational moved to Transylvania (15 Viewers)
- Thread starter Good Posting Judge
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PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
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Premier
Footballguy
No. Jordan was but he was a toothpick then. Lebron would just body him the whole game and wear him down. I honestly can't believe anybody is mentioning guys like Mchale and Wilkins in the same breath as Lebron.None of those guys were known for their defense, were they?Yea ok.The 80s weren't nearly as good as your childhood remembers them.LOL, you are telling me Lebron would dominate Jordan, Magic, Wilkens, Bird, McHale and the list goes on and on you are insane. All the players are better now? Some guys that start on playoff teams wouldn't even be in the league in the 80's 1985 there were 23 teams in the league now there are 30 which means there is roughly 105 more players in the league now then roughly 30 years ago, the talent is diluted and the teams aren't nearly as good.You are nuts. Lebron would destroy those defenses in the 80s. It would be completely unfair.Your belief that everything in the league was better in the 80s has been crapped on multiple times. Almost all the players are better now.Obviouslyand i'm not even an NBA fan/supporter.
And yes, Lebron would just embarrass guys like Wilkins, Bird and Magic on offense. They wouldn't have a prayer guarding him. It would be a bloodbath.
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Prince Myshkin
Footballguy
and out of those 23 teams, about 4 could actually play.
just think, in the 60's there were only like NINE teams. imagine how good all those teams were!!!
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strykerpks
Footballguy
I bet the Badgers would've Princeton'd Magic and Bird to death.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I would think the Showtime Lakers vs the 2014 Heat would be interesting. I wouldn't think the Heat would have a great answer for Magic or Kareem. Of course the same would probably be true for LBJ and Bosh. Michael Cooper guarding Wade would be probably be a good contest.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
I strongly suggest you rethink several of the statements you have made in this post.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
There were 23 teams in the league in 1985, therefore Lebron would not dominate Dominique Wilkins. Ipso, fatso.
Prince Myshkin
Footballguy
in regards to Wisconsin, it seems like some people are arguing both sides agains TFunk. First people said, "oh no, this Wisconsin team is different. Have you watch this years team? They are much more up tempo and fun to watch." Then all of the sudden it switched to "Wisconsin plays pure basketball and slower is exciting too."
For me, I like the differences in style. If every team played the same way, that would be boring to me. I love watching a rip-and-run team try to enforce their tempo on the opponent while the methodical team tries to break down the defense. There is a beauty to both styles when executed correctly. A game in the 80's is usually more fun to watch than a game in the 60's though.
For me, I like the differences in style. If every team played the same way, that would be boring to me. I love watching a rip-and-run team try to enforce their tempo on the opponent while the methodical team tries to break down the defense. There is a beauty to both styles when executed correctly. A game in the 80's is usually more fun to watch than a game in the 60's though.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
IT'S THE ONLY ARGUMENT I NEED, SHAWN!
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I hate Kentucky, as does anyone with teeth, but I'm struggling to believe UW can beat them... I mean honestly, they're just so white. I can't tell you the last time I've seen five white kids on the court for the same team at the same time in a D1 game. There, I said it.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Wisconsin plays quick. They make quick decisions to keep players and the ball moving. They just play quick from side-to-side instead of up-and-down. Defending a well-executed swing offense can be more physically demanding than defending a fastbreaking team because of all the direction changes and screens. Ignorant sluts like TobiasFunke read the KenPom numbers and assume Wisconsin stands around and waits for the shot clock to drop below a certain number before engaging the offense, a.k.a. "ACC Basketball".
The NCAA Tournament is a fine reminder that college basketball still has a lot of room for unconventional players and unconventional strategies. The basic premise of Wisconsin's offense may be out of a time machine, but their execution of it is current. I like the positionless nature of Wisconsin's offense - they are so good at identifying and exploiting mismatches, either from exposing weak defenders or making good defenders play spots on the floor they aren't used to occupying. For people like you and me who truly understand the game it's fun to watch, but I get that it's not for everybody.
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Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
The Gophers head coach looks like the love child of Rick Pitino and Lip Gallagher from "Shameless".
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Mickey from Shameless really looks like French/Manchester City midfielder Samir Nasri.
rockaction
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Stupid cross-era NBA debates is not the direction I thought the conversation would go in when I left you all yesterday.
Do you want me to go back to pissing off fans of one of the Final Four teams so you can get at least somewhat back on track? Wisconsin snoozeball was the easiest target, but I'm sure I can come up with some sort of UConn schtick if need be.
Do you want me to go back to pissing off fans of one of the Final Four teams so you can get at least somewhat back on track? Wisconsin snoozeball was the easiest target, but I'm sure I can come up with some sort of UConn schtick if need be.
Won't work, unlike the others in the thread, we are just happy to be here and are enjoying the ride as far as it will go.
I agree with you on the cross-era NBA talk, it is stupid. Do we really think that the 80's players growing up today wouldn't be bulked up a bit more with the training and "enhancement" improvements? The top NBA players of all time would probably be the top NBA players at any time given the same environment. Saying today > yesterday assuming no environmental change is like saying the best sniper from the revolutionary war with a musket wouldn't hold a candle to the best sniper today using today's rifle/scope. Duh.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Timmay
Footballguy
Agreed. But it is crazy talk to think that Lebron couldn't stand a chance against Wilkins or Lambeer is non-sense, like the original poster commented. I don't like Lebron, but he is crazy good and probably the most freakish athlete in sports today.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
hell of an nit final.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Looks like Minnesconsin could sweep this whole thing.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
I missed the finish of the NIT game because I was riveted to my second screen. Which, of course, was devoted to watching Joel Embiid livestreaming NBA2K. Yes, any high ground I ever had about how others spend their time has been conceded.
A few highlights from said livestream:
Someone in chat called JoJo the next Hasheem Thabeet. JoJo's response to that included M F'in B.
The legend about JoJo killing a lion back in Cameroon is true. He killed a lion with a spear, and witnesses to the event include his brother.
JoJo is not that good at 2K.
When asked about action he got with the co-eds, JoJo said he is still a virgin. He loves Dakota and wants to marry her.
Dakota is KU women's basketball player Dakota Gonzalez.
Someone asked him when he was going to announce his decision to turn pro. He replied "Next year."
A few highlights from said livestream:
Someone in chat called JoJo the next Hasheem Thabeet. JoJo's response to that included M F'in B.
The legend about JoJo killing a lion back in Cameroon is true. He killed a lion with a spear, and witnesses to the event include his brother.
JoJo is not that good at 2K.
When asked about action he got with the co-eds, JoJo said he is still a virgin. He loves Dakota and wants to marry her.
Dakota is KU women's basketball player Dakota Gonzalez.
Someone asked him when he was going to announce his decision to turn pro. He replied "Next year."
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
I think he enjoys messing with superfans hanging on his every word. He's gotten really good at trolling folks on Twitter.I think he's turning pro. His parents are flying in from Cameroon. Doubt they would fly in for an announcement that he's coming back for another year of college ball. Flying across an ocean to support their boy turning pro and to help him shop for an agent? That makes sense.
Moe.
Footballguy
Frostillicus
Footballguy
WE DIDI IT!!
rockaction
Footballguy
That UConn contained this, and his three point shooting, gives me hope that our small guards can carry us to a title. Most experts were picking M St. to win the title, and we doubled him out of existence.
Cut the head off the dragon!
rockaction
Footballguy
Yes. Something around 40%. It was ridiculous that UConn won. We doubled and tripled him low, we owned their guards defensively, and he missed some threes, and we won. Nice!
eta* I think we also we 21-22 from the line, which, uh, helped.
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Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Las Vegas Sharps Report .... because we like to gamble on stuff.
======================
Florida vs. UCONN
The Florida Gators are the only #1 seed left in the NCAA Tournament. And, according to the computers, they have a chance to reach the finals without facing a single team that’s in the top 10! That’s surely taking advantage of some bracket breaks. But, make no mistake…this is a legitimate power capable of running the table even against a tougher slate. Their wins over Pittsburgh and UCLA make that very clear.
Connecticut isn’t the biggest Cinderella left in the Dance based on seeding. But, that’s because the committee gave Kentucky a #8 when they really deserved a #4 or a #5. The computers have UCONN as the only real Cinderella in Arlington. Can the Huskies do a Texas Two-Step on the way to a stunning national title?
Let’s run some numbers!
Computer Rankings
Florida: #1 in Pomeroy, #1 in Sagarin
UCONN: #15 in Pomeroy, #11 in Sagarin
College basketball guru Ken Pomeroy and USA Today computer whiz Jeff Sagarin both have Florida as the #1 team in their ratings given recent losses by Arizona and Louisville. Pomeroy still only has UCONN as a Sweet 16 caliber team. And, that might be all they could have managed if the Sweet 16 wasn’t held at their home away from home in Madison Square Garden! Sagarin has them knocking on the door of the Top 10…and would sure move them into the top 10 were the Huskies to spring an upset here.
Offensive Rank (Adjusted for Schedule)
Florida: #18
UCONN: #49
UCONN gets raves about their guard play and their free throw shooting. But, they really weren’t a great offensive team this year by tournament standards. Their free throw shooting is truly fantastic, which gives them a lethal finishing ability if they have a late lead. But, they can’t count on getting the whistles going their way. Florida has the much more efficient offense on a per-possession basis according to Pomeroy’s methodology, which adjusts for pace and strength of schedule.
Defensive Rank (Adjusted for Schedule)
Florida: #1
UCONN: #10
These are both fantastic defenses. Both are among the very best in the nation at guarding the basket. Florida also forces a lot of turnovers. The Gators are well-positioned to make another strong case again for the “defense wins championships” line of thinking. But, if UCONN has a history-making weekend, they could make the same case! Defensive powers matching up in North Texas.
Pace Ranking
Florida: #322
UCONN: #247
You’re likely to see an extremely slow game. Connecticut is below average in pace, while Florida is one of the slowest “good” teams in the whole country. Both prefer to work the ball for good shots. And, in this matchup, both will be trying to do that against elite defenses. Might turn into a real grinder that isn’t exactly must-see TV.
Against the Spread
Florida: 18-15-1
UCONN: 21-15
Both teams have cashed tickets this season. That’s particularly impressive for Florida, who’s been battling tall spreads as a national power. Connecticut got hot at the right time, pushing them to six games over the .500 mark against market expectations.
Vegas Line: Florida by 6.5, total of 126.5
The Gators have to be the clear favorite based on all the math. And, they might be getting some additional respect because of familiarity with this locale. Florida faced Florida-Gulf Coast and Michigan in the dome last year (though they’d rather forget the Michigan game!). Plus, UCONN won’t have any sort of home area edge this time around. Keep in mind that a number like six-and-a-half is high for a grinder game. Florida will be emphasizing a pace that might make it difficult for them to clear the number with anything less than a dominance.
======================
Wisconsin vs. Kentucky
The nightcap of Saturday’s Final Four basketball fast features a pair of top quality teams who go about things in very different ways. The contrasts between Wisconsin and Kentucky aren’t as extreme as they used to be. Wisconsin is a touch faster and a bit more athletic this year than in the past (which is why they’re having such a deep run!). Kentucky is a bit slower this year and was late to find their killer instinct (which is why they were only a #8 seed). But, we still have two very distinct approaches to basketball.
*Wisconsin patiently works the ball around on offense, trying to find an open look. Kentucky gets the ball to a star who attacks the basket quickly and aggressively. That leads to some big days from long range for Wisconsin, and some big days at the free throw line for Kentucky.
*Wisconsin tends to back off in the paint if the ball goes in deep. They’re particularly soft when center Frank Kaminsky isn’t near the rim discouraging shots. Kentucky’s athletes try to make high impact plays when you get the ball inside.
It’s possible that we’re going to have one of the all time Dance scoring shows if Wisconsin is draining treys while Kentucky is flying unchecked to the rim. It’s possible that we’re going to have a blowout if either team falls slightly off their norms while the other hits on all cylinders.
A challenging game to handicap. Let’s go to our key information resources…
Computer Rankings
Wisconsin: #6 in Pomeroy, #4 in Sagarin
Kentucky: #8 in Pomeroy, #6 in Sagarin
College basketball guru Ken Pomeroy and USA Today computer whiz Jeff Sagarin both see Wisconsin as two positions better. But, the margin for error when you’re evaluating about 350 teams is such that you might as well call it a dead heat. Interesting that such varied philosophies can lead to virtually the same level of excellence and success. The legal betting markets tend to weight recent form more heavily. That’s why Kentucky is the betting favorite. It’s a dead heat over five months…but Kentucky’s had the more impressive Dance run.
Offensive Rank (Adjusted for Schedule)
Wisconsin: #4
Kentucky: #9
We mentioned that both teams get a lot out of their offenses. Wisconsin makes treys, and does a fantastic job of avoiding turnovers. Kentucky picks up so many bonus points at the charity stripe that they can live with more turnovers. The slightest of edges overall to Wisconsin…but relying on treys is a bit more risky than relying on inside points. Yesterday we talked about how “defense wins championships” much of the time in this tournament. The survivor of this game will try to win with offense in Monday’s final.
Defensive Rank (Adjusted for Schedule)
Wisconsin: #45
Kentucky: #40
Both of those represent good rankings nationally, but poor rankings in terms of playing championship caliber basketball. By Dance standards, these are just generic defenses. This is a HUGE fall-off for Kentucky, a team that usually ranks very highly under coach John Calipari. Wisconsin just doesn’t recruit dynamic defensive athletes in depth…which prevents them from playing dynamic defense. Their slow offensive pace helps create the illusion of great defense some years. The media still hasn’t figured that out.
Pace Ranking
Wisconsin: #287
Kentucky: #226
We talked about this at the top. Wisconsin is usually in the 300’s…so there a bit faster this year than normal. Their fans thanks them! Kentucky is slower this year than normal because they don’t have super-fast guards who fly at the basket. Their best weapons are slower big guys, and Calipari has been smart to play to those strengths. Given the nature of the matchup, it may be a high scoring game with a slow pace.
Against the Spread
Wisconsin: 21-16
Kentucky: 19-15-2
Kentucky’s recent run has launched them past the .500 mark. They were struggling late in the season until really clicking in the SEC tournament. There’s been no looking back since. Wisconsin has posted a solid profit, also thanks to a postseason run.
Vegas Line: Kentucky by 1.5, total of 139.5
Respect there for Kentucky’s recent form (sharps and oddsmakers have been impressed with a win streak over the likes of Wichita State, Louisville, and Michigan). And, that’s a high total for a slow game…so the market has been doing its research on the teams
======================
Florida vs. UCONN
The Florida Gators are the only #1 seed left in the NCAA Tournament. And, according to the computers, they have a chance to reach the finals without facing a single team that’s in the top 10! That’s surely taking advantage of some bracket breaks. But, make no mistake…this is a legitimate power capable of running the table even against a tougher slate. Their wins over Pittsburgh and UCLA make that very clear.
Connecticut isn’t the biggest Cinderella left in the Dance based on seeding. But, that’s because the committee gave Kentucky a #8 when they really deserved a #4 or a #5. The computers have UCONN as the only real Cinderella in Arlington. Can the Huskies do a Texas Two-Step on the way to a stunning national title?
Let’s run some numbers!
Computer Rankings
Florida: #1 in Pomeroy, #1 in Sagarin
UCONN: #15 in Pomeroy, #11 in Sagarin
College basketball guru Ken Pomeroy and USA Today computer whiz Jeff Sagarin both have Florida as the #1 team in their ratings given recent losses by Arizona and Louisville. Pomeroy still only has UCONN as a Sweet 16 caliber team. And, that might be all they could have managed if the Sweet 16 wasn’t held at their home away from home in Madison Square Garden! Sagarin has them knocking on the door of the Top 10…and would sure move them into the top 10 were the Huskies to spring an upset here.
Offensive Rank (Adjusted for Schedule)
Florida: #18
UCONN: #49
UCONN gets raves about their guard play and their free throw shooting. But, they really weren’t a great offensive team this year by tournament standards. Their free throw shooting is truly fantastic, which gives them a lethal finishing ability if they have a late lead. But, they can’t count on getting the whistles going their way. Florida has the much more efficient offense on a per-possession basis according to Pomeroy’s methodology, which adjusts for pace and strength of schedule.
Defensive Rank (Adjusted for Schedule)
Florida: #1
UCONN: #10
These are both fantastic defenses. Both are among the very best in the nation at guarding the basket. Florida also forces a lot of turnovers. The Gators are well-positioned to make another strong case again for the “defense wins championships” line of thinking. But, if UCONN has a history-making weekend, they could make the same case! Defensive powers matching up in North Texas.
Pace Ranking
Florida: #322
UCONN: #247
You’re likely to see an extremely slow game. Connecticut is below average in pace, while Florida is one of the slowest “good” teams in the whole country. Both prefer to work the ball for good shots. And, in this matchup, both will be trying to do that against elite defenses. Might turn into a real grinder that isn’t exactly must-see TV.
Against the Spread
Florida: 18-15-1
UCONN: 21-15
Both teams have cashed tickets this season. That’s particularly impressive for Florida, who’s been battling tall spreads as a national power. Connecticut got hot at the right time, pushing them to six games over the .500 mark against market expectations.
Vegas Line: Florida by 6.5, total of 126.5
The Gators have to be the clear favorite based on all the math. And, they might be getting some additional respect because of familiarity with this locale. Florida faced Florida-Gulf Coast and Michigan in the dome last year (though they’d rather forget the Michigan game!). Plus, UCONN won’t have any sort of home area edge this time around. Keep in mind that a number like six-and-a-half is high for a grinder game. Florida will be emphasizing a pace that might make it difficult for them to clear the number with anything less than a dominance.
======================
Wisconsin vs. Kentucky
The nightcap of Saturday’s Final Four basketball fast features a pair of top quality teams who go about things in very different ways. The contrasts between Wisconsin and Kentucky aren’t as extreme as they used to be. Wisconsin is a touch faster and a bit more athletic this year than in the past (which is why they’re having such a deep run!). Kentucky is a bit slower this year and was late to find their killer instinct (which is why they were only a #8 seed). But, we still have two very distinct approaches to basketball.
*Wisconsin patiently works the ball around on offense, trying to find an open look. Kentucky gets the ball to a star who attacks the basket quickly and aggressively. That leads to some big days from long range for Wisconsin, and some big days at the free throw line for Kentucky.
*Wisconsin tends to back off in the paint if the ball goes in deep. They’re particularly soft when center Frank Kaminsky isn’t near the rim discouraging shots. Kentucky’s athletes try to make high impact plays when you get the ball inside.
It’s possible that we’re going to have one of the all time Dance scoring shows if Wisconsin is draining treys while Kentucky is flying unchecked to the rim. It’s possible that we’re going to have a blowout if either team falls slightly off their norms while the other hits on all cylinders.
A challenging game to handicap. Let’s go to our key information resources…
Computer Rankings
Wisconsin: #6 in Pomeroy, #4 in Sagarin
Kentucky: #8 in Pomeroy, #6 in Sagarin
College basketball guru Ken Pomeroy and USA Today computer whiz Jeff Sagarin both see Wisconsin as two positions better. But, the margin for error when you’re evaluating about 350 teams is such that you might as well call it a dead heat. Interesting that such varied philosophies can lead to virtually the same level of excellence and success. The legal betting markets tend to weight recent form more heavily. That’s why Kentucky is the betting favorite. It’s a dead heat over five months…but Kentucky’s had the more impressive Dance run.
Offensive Rank (Adjusted for Schedule)
Wisconsin: #4
Kentucky: #9
We mentioned that both teams get a lot out of their offenses. Wisconsin makes treys, and does a fantastic job of avoiding turnovers. Kentucky picks up so many bonus points at the charity stripe that they can live with more turnovers. The slightest of edges overall to Wisconsin…but relying on treys is a bit more risky than relying on inside points. Yesterday we talked about how “defense wins championships” much of the time in this tournament. The survivor of this game will try to win with offense in Monday’s final.
Defensive Rank (Adjusted for Schedule)
Wisconsin: #45
Kentucky: #40
Both of those represent good rankings nationally, but poor rankings in terms of playing championship caliber basketball. By Dance standards, these are just generic defenses. This is a HUGE fall-off for Kentucky, a team that usually ranks very highly under coach John Calipari. Wisconsin just doesn’t recruit dynamic defensive athletes in depth…which prevents them from playing dynamic defense. Their slow offensive pace helps create the illusion of great defense some years. The media still hasn’t figured that out.
Pace Ranking
Wisconsin: #287
Kentucky: #226
We talked about this at the top. Wisconsin is usually in the 300’s…so there a bit faster this year than normal. Their fans thanks them! Kentucky is slower this year than normal because they don’t have super-fast guards who fly at the basket. Their best weapons are slower big guys, and Calipari has been smart to play to those strengths. Given the nature of the matchup, it may be a high scoring game with a slow pace.
Against the Spread
Wisconsin: 21-16
Kentucky: 19-15-2
Kentucky’s recent run has launched them past the .500 mark. They were struggling late in the season until really clicking in the SEC tournament. There’s been no looking back since. Wisconsin has posted a solid profit, also thanks to a postseason run.
Vegas Line: Kentucky by 1.5, total of 139.5
Respect there for Kentucky’s recent form (sharps and oddsmakers have been impressed with a win streak over the likes of Wichita State, Louisville, and Michigan). And, that’s a high total for a slow game…so the market has been doing its research on the teams
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I've picked against UK every game since Wichita State.Trying something different, UK over the Badgers.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
That dude loves him some exclamation marks! I should have done some editing.
Nipsey
Footballguy
Prediction machine cbb picks all free today. Likes Fla and Wisc, Fla under, Wisc over.
Alan Boston tweeted the following a few minutes ago:
When UCOnn beat Fla earlier in the year, they were coming off a flat effort vs Loyola, Fla was off a one pt win vs rival Fla St. Fla pg DNP. Team was not 100%. U Conn hit i believe 11-21 3s (this is all from memory) and got there at end. I watched game + felt Fla was far superior. No doubt U Conn has played well this tourney, also Fla has had easy draw. Not a fan of either side but recalling 1st game, think Fla wins.
How talented is Ky? Beilein admitted to having little on the kid Lee, He enters game and dominates, especially on D. The kid is a freak, for sure an NBAer. When you pay the most for players, you get pros coming off the bench. Dont understand y Lee, who could start for any other would opt to play little for a bozo like Calipari, but I digress. The reality is Ky is loaded. The reality is that they have played well and gotten through a brutal draw. They also do way too many stupid things in a game to back them vs a Wiscy team that rarely makes a mistake. Visually, I felt Arizona was best. Wiscy hung in, when it looked like they were going to be blown out and played great down the stretch to get there. With a week to get ready, got to think Bo Ryan will have Wiscy better prepared, also cant c Ky continuing to shoot well from 3. they were 7/11 vs Michigan. Think Wisconsin will win. I did take 2 and would take plus 2 minus 20
Alan Boston tweeted the following a few minutes ago:
When UCOnn beat Fla earlier in the year, they were coming off a flat effort vs Loyola, Fla was off a one pt win vs rival Fla St. Fla pg DNP. Team was not 100%. U Conn hit i believe 11-21 3s (this is all from memory) and got there at end. I watched game + felt Fla was far superior. No doubt U Conn has played well this tourney, also Fla has had easy draw. Not a fan of either side but recalling 1st game, think Fla wins.
How talented is Ky? Beilein admitted to having little on the kid Lee, He enters game and dominates, especially on D. The kid is a freak, for sure an NBAer. When you pay the most for players, you get pros coming off the bench. Dont understand y Lee, who could start for any other would opt to play little for a bozo like Calipari, but I digress. The reality is Ky is loaded. The reality is that they have played well and gotten through a brutal draw. They also do way too many stupid things in a game to back them vs a Wiscy team that rarely makes a mistake. Visually, I felt Arizona was best. Wiscy hung in, when it looked like they were going to be blown out and played great down the stretch to get there. With a week to get ready, got to think Bo Ryan will have Wiscy better prepared, also cant c Ky continuing to shoot well from 3. they were 7/11 vs Michigan. Think Wisconsin will win. I did take 2 and would take plus 2 minus 20
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
For accuracy I'll note that Wilbekin did play in that game but hurt his ankle and missed the last 3 minutes. Kasey Hill, the backup PG, was the DNP. Hill is a pretty significant reserve though.