fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Possibly. Probably. But I was still encouraged that the coaching staff modified their style of play. My big concern is that the Steelers played a great game on offense and still found a way to lose.
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New England at Pittsburgh (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Maurile Tremblay
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wilked
Footballguy
Coaching staff on Pitt made the right decision to throw it 3rd down and try and win the game. Ben was wrong to second guess them after the game.
What went wrong was three things:
#1) 2nd down play the Steelers threw a short-yardage pass (ie not a pass in the end zone). This carries risk that the player is tackled in bounds (which he was). This still might be ok except:
#2) Steelers did not appear to be ready for the possibility that the player might be tackled in bounds. You sense a bit of panic, scrambling to decide what to do (Ben and coaches clearly on different pages), and players on different pages too (only Eli ran his route, other receivers just kind of stood around). This might still be ok except:
#3) Ben makes an ill-advised throw into heavy coverage / bodies, and eventually intercepted
What went wrong was three things:
#1) 2nd down play the Steelers threw a short-yardage pass (ie not a pass in the end zone). This carries risk that the player is tackled in bounds (which he was). This still might be ok except:
#2) Steelers did not appear to be ready for the possibility that the player might be tackled in bounds. You sense a bit of panic, scrambling to decide what to do (Ben and coaches clearly on different pages), and players on different pages too (only Eli ran his route, other receivers just kind of stood around). This might still be ok except:
#3) Ben makes an ill-advised throw into heavy coverage / bodies, and eventually intercepted
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Mookie
Footballguy
Steelers got hosed by an incredibly hypertechnical interpretation of the rules and have a critical 4th quarter taken away, just like the Jets in week 6, and guess who benefits? It's like the NFL suddenly accepted the Patriots self-deflating footballs theory as gospel in looking for ways to help them win and avoid detection. Go ahead and provide me with a detailed legal explanation in triplicate with flow charts and legal briefing explaining why James' bobble negates that play under the NFL rules as written, but to me, it was and always will be a catch and TD. The NFL is a joke right now.
Man In The Box
Footballguy
Barring a rule change, and I'll he honest, I have no idea what the rule change should be, pretty soon we’ll have coaches telling players to focus on pulling the ball into their chest and just fall to the ground in a fetal position to make sure the ball never touches the ground. Don’t worry about getting extra yardage or scoring. Especially in a big spot in the game. And let’s face it, that’s what we all want right? That sounds like an exciting product to me. 
Seems simple enough to me, just take the rules back like we used to have them and cut this nonsense of needing to complete the catch to the ground.
Two feet down, it's a catch. Make a football move, it's a catch. That's how it used to be back when everyone knew what a catch was.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Yes sir it wastimschochet said:
The overturned catch and Ben's INT has obscured this horrendous play call and/or horrible choice by Ben.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I'll need to watch the play again but I was a little surprised JuJu didn't take it all the way. He had a blocker around the 15? and it looked like he was going to cruise into the end zone. Credit to whoever on the Pats D made that tackle.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Ive seen this a few times now and I just don't get this mentality?IvanKaramazov said:
I "hate" many teams and players but hoping, (encouraging and bragging about it) for players to intentionally injure someone and send them to the hospital is pretty sad imho
I was highly critical of the coaching staff during 4th quarter for playing to conservative. They had a one score lead and were playing the way the Falcons should have played in the SB when they had a 25 point lead. Romo was spot on with his commentary, what they needed to do to win was score some more points but instead they opted to try and sit on a one score lead for half a quarter against one of the greatest QB's of all time.
But the actual difference in the game was that Brady did not lose his composure, Ben did twice on the last few plays.
Dear God man-this is why some/many (not all) NE fans feel like "they hate us because they ain't us." Do you really think the NFL is going out of their way to help any team, much less the Patriots? Seriously-you think the NFL got together with the officiating crews before the Jets & Steelers games & instructed them to screw ASJ out of a TD, then later to screw James out of a TD?
It's a stupid rule, but it IS a rule. It's been a rule; it wasn't just put into effect this week. It just happened to bite the Steelers in the ### this week. It's fortunate for the Pats & unfortunate for the Steelers, but it isn't part of any grand conspiracy.
Copeman
Footballguy
I could have sworn it was you that insinuated that same exact thing about the Steelers-Hawks SB. If that wasn't you, my apologies. But your username brings back those memories.
Bossman
Footballguy
Coach absolutely has a say in the matter. Tomlin just choses not to limit his players. Maybe he doesn't care.fred_1_15301 said:
As much as people hate Burfict, Ju-Ju taunts and disrespects a player that he injured ... one week after the fact. Not sure immature is a strong enough word to describe.
Brandin Cooks appeared to ride Gronkowski like a horse after the receiver's touchdown in the fourth quarter of the 35-17 win over Miami. That’s allowable under a new NFL rule this year, but still frowned upon by coach Bill Belichick.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots/the_blitz/2017/11/rob_gronkowski_insists_impromptu_celebration_was_not_planned
Wait, so you use a situation where NE players did something that BB "frowns upon" as some kind of proof that coaches have control (a say) over player celebrations? That makes no sense.
So, does YOUR link mean that Belichick "choses" not to limit his players, as well? Or maybe he just doesn't care?
Because BB never disciplined Cooks, AFAIK. Cooks was never demoted, never missed time, never was fined. So, if JuJu's celebration should have been stopped by Tomlin (because "Coach absolutely has a say in the matter"), so too, should Cooks' have been stopped/disciplined by BB. You have to apply your "logic" evenly. If Tomlin "choses" not to limit his players, you have to say the same about Belichick, right? Otherwise, this would just appear to be a biased post.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
brettdj
Footballguy
Back then diving for the ball. Having control with 2 hands while in the air. Ball hits first and receiver does not lose control. INCOMPLETE because the ball touched the ground.
Bossman
Footballguy
LOL ... 1:08, Nance "There's no doubt it's going to hold up (TD)" ... what a tool.
Romo 1:20, "That's gonna stand" ... dope. Took forever for these 2 to figure out what everyone else saw on the first replay.
Don't they have a producer or someone that talks in their ear to tell them what's up?
I think their call of the play (or lack of in this case) is a big reason that PIT fans were so upset about the reversal.
Had these bozos QUICKLY pointed out the lack of control when the left hand came off the ball, the full rotation of the ball that showed beyond any doubt, lack of control, the ball resting on the ground, ... there wouldn't be so much disappointment.
Nance and Romo made the reversal of the play unexpected.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Looked like Shuster was starting to stumble on his own before he went down. I thought he was taking it all the way as well.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Observations:
According to the rules it clearly wasn't a catch, similar to the Dez, Megatron and numerous other ruled in-completions. Do i feel the those types of plays should be catches, yes, just like the Dez and Megatron plays, your eyes tell you its a catch. However it is not clear to me how you could change the rule without opening up more cans of worms.
It was a pretty well called game and yes there were a couple of calls that could have gone Pitts way but those are ridiculously low on the list of why Pitt ultimately lost. Even after not covering gronk and allowing NE to score the td and game tying conversion they were in perfect position to win or at least force overtime.
Pitt played an almost flawless game and dominated both sides of the ball the majority of the game; they should have won. However, they have won some games recently were they were extremely fortunate to win and this time the tables were turned and they came out on the other end.
Going for the win was the right call, the pass to heyward bay was not a great decision and the interception was a horrendous decision. Ben played great all game, he just got caught up in the moment and made a really bad decision.
NE is capable of beating any team in the league, but they are very thin (both lines and def front 7) team that can definitely be beaten by a lot of teams right now. When you are praying during warmups that Eric Lee can play you know the situation is pretty bad. NE better hope it gets hfa because it is most assuredly going to need it and even with hfa if they can't stop the run and protect the qb they are in serious trouble.
It was a great game that NE was extremely fortunate to win and a gut wrenching loss for a team that played better for the vast majority of the game.
Hopefully we will see you guys again.
According to the rules it clearly wasn't a catch, similar to the Dez, Megatron and numerous other ruled in-completions. Do i feel the those types of plays should be catches, yes, just like the Dez and Megatron plays, your eyes tell you its a catch. However it is not clear to me how you could change the rule without opening up more cans of worms.
It was a pretty well called game and yes there were a couple of calls that could have gone Pitts way but those are ridiculously low on the list of why Pitt ultimately lost. Even after not covering gronk and allowing NE to score the td and game tying conversion they were in perfect position to win or at least force overtime.
Pitt played an almost flawless game and dominated both sides of the ball the majority of the game; they should have won. However, they have won some games recently were they were extremely fortunate to win and this time the tables were turned and they came out on the other end.
Going for the win was the right call, the pass to heyward bay was not a great decision and the interception was a horrendous decision. Ben played great all game, he just got caught up in the moment and made a really bad decision.
NE is capable of beating any team in the league, but they are very thin (both lines and def front 7) team that can definitely be beaten by a lot of teams right now. When you are praying during warmups that Eric Lee can play you know the situation is pretty bad. NE better hope it gets hfa because it is most assuredly going to need it and even with hfa if they can't stop the run and protect the qb they are in serious trouble.
It was a great game that NE was extremely fortunate to win and a gut wrenching loss for a team that played better for the vast majority of the game.
Hopefully we will see you guys again.
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Bossman
Footballguy
Love the fact that after the game Ben blames the coaches for him throwing that ball.
http://larrybrownsports.com/football/ben-roethlisberger-coaches-spike-play/416481
They've used the "fake clock it" play many times. With success vs the Cowboys:
https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2016/11/13/watch-steelers-fake-spike-late-game-touchdown-vs-cowboys-twitter-goes-crazy
This was designed to trick the Patriots into not playing defense.
Didn't work so Ben blames the coaches. Wow.
Ben Roethlisberger says there was a difference of opinion on Steelers final play. "It wasn't a fake spike. I was yelling 'clock it' b/c I felt that was the thing to do, to clock it and get yourself one play. And it came from the sideline: 'Don't clock it, don't clock it.'"
hey Ben, it was 3rd down, you can't clock it and get yourself one play ... unless your going for the TD on 4th down.
Could you imagine any other QB throwing his coaches under the bus like this? How fragile is your ego that you can't take blame for a bad decision?
I've come to the conclusion that Ben strongly dislikes Tomlin.
Whizzinator
Footballguy
It's one thing to trick the Cowboys, who have had mediocre to poor coaching and discipline for a decade. Trying that against the Patriots is just a horrible bet. Given the weak Pats defense this year, you're far better off playing it straight than making a bet you can 'sneak' something over on them. Perhaps their only plus defensive trait right now is attention!
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Remember it well and I thought it easily could have been ruled incomplete but the plays are not exactly the same. Main difference being the location of Cooks left arm (looks to be under the ball) and no clear evidence of the ball moving at the moment of impact with the ground (at least that is what I see and the refs obviously saw it the same way). The Cooks ball moved right before he hit the ground but u couldn't really see the moment of impact from behind (thru cooks body). Had it been ruled incomplete it wouldn't have been over turned because you just couldn't see with 100% certainty. In contrast, James clearly did not have his hands or arm under the ball, they were to the side as the ball moves and hands slip at impact. As I said earlier it is an onerous rule that often over turns what most, including myself think should be catches.
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TLEF316
Footballguy
I disagree with the bolded. Cooks' left arm IS NOT under the ball. His left arm is in front of the ball, sort of catching himself as he goes to the ground. I agree with the underlined part; because of how he's falling & the location of the camera (don't know if there was another angle), there's no clear evidence of the ball moving. That is what sets it apart from the James' play, IMO. It was very clear that the ball moved after it hit the ground when James was stretching for the EZ.
Bossman
Footballguy
I'm sorry, I should have linked to how BB addressed the situation.Wait, so you use a situation where NE players did something that BB "frowns upon" as some kind of proof that coaches have control (a say) over player celebrations? That makes no sense.
So, does YOUR link mean that Belichick "choses" not to limit his players, as well? Or maybe he just doesn't care?
Because BB never disciplined Cooks, AFAIK. Cooks was never demoted, never missed time, never was fined. So, if JuJu's celebration should have been stopped by Tomlin (because "Coach absolutely has a say in the matter"), so too, should Cooks' have been stopped/disciplined by BB. You have to apply your "logic" evenly. If Tomlin "choses" not to limit his players, you have to say the same about Belichick, right? Otherwise, this would just appear to be a biased post.
“That was not planned or anything,” Gronk said Sunday. “We got yelled at. We’re not allowed to talk about celebrations. That’s what we got told. I kinda want to talk about it, but I kinda don’t because I’ll get in trouble. So I don’t know what to do. It just happened on the spot. It wasn’t planned.
http://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2017/11/26/heres-the-td-celebration-that-got-rob-gronkowski-and-brandin-cooks-yelled-at/
so you are comparing Cooks riding Gronk ... to Ju-Ju mocking a player that he injured the week before?
to you for thinking these are even in the same ballpark.Do you think Tomlin said a word to Ju Ju about his antics yesterday? More likely he laughed and high fived Ju Ju.
Did I mention that I think Big Ben strongly dislikes Tomlin. This carp has a lot to do with it.
Steeler
Footballguy
If what Ben says is true, the coaches do need to take some of the blame for not having a better plan in place if the call was overturned. If Ben is correct - that they were telling him not to spike it in the heat of the moment while the clock was running - that is being remarkably unprepared. So I do blame the coaches for not having everyone on the same page for the 2nd and 3rd down plays. They should have called 2 plays in the huddle and executed both of them if necessary... with 34 seconds left there is clearly enough time to run 2 plays from the 10 even if Ben throws both out of bounds in the event nobody was open.
But having said all of that, even if the coaches completely ####ed up the play calling, they didn't throw into triple coverage so Ben just needs to own that.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure I've seen Brady screaming at his coaches on the sideline. I guess he strongly dislikes them as well.
Bossman
Footballguy
I'm a NE fan and I completely agree.
His right arm appears to be squeezing the ball against his body. Doesn't look like his hand was even on it.
The only reasoning that I can come up with is that there was no clear evidence of the ball coming loose... even though common sense tells you the ball had to move when it hit the ground. Cooks body shields the view somewhat.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Almost everyone hates the current interpretation.
What could be changed to make it better?
To be clear, a Potter Stewart declaration is not an improvement over the current state of affairs.
Dizzy
Footballguy
We should accept the fact that a 200-lb human body crashing to the ground while holding onto an inflated, elongated object is probably going to reveal some movement upon HD camera analysis. Catch stays a catch unless the ball comes free or is clearly dragging across the ground.
Bring the excitement back to the moment.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
IMHO it looks to me like Cooks arm (forearm) may very well have been at least partially under the ball but really almost impossible to tell one way or the other. Reasonable minds may disagree and I won't argue the point with those who feel otherwise; you could well be right.
Steeler
Footballguy
The "bringing the excitement back to the moment" idea isn't getting talked about a lot - but that aspect of replay also came into play in this game. With 50 something seconds left in the game the Steelers had 1 time out and were ~80 yards from the endzone ~45 yards from realistic FG range. Then JuJu makes that huge play (props to the blocker down the field along the sidelines (it was Bell IIRC) and the stadium is going nuts! All the momentum and energy is with the Steelers - next play TD BOOM!!!! They win the game!!! Hold on - 5 minute replay (or whatever the time frame) which allows all the energy/atmosphere/etc. to leave the stadium. Now, everything else I have said about the Steelers still holds true - they should have prepared better for the overturned call and Ben certainly should not have thrown that pass into coverage - but the delay clearly helped the Pats by giving them a chance to regroup from the monstrous JuJu play.
bostonfred
Footballguy
One option is to add a rule that if you hold it for a full second (or .8 seconds, etc) without bobbling it, it's a catch, and if you drop it after that, it's a fumble. That solves most of these "obvious catches" that get overturned on replay.
Another option is to make a bobbled catch unreviewable. He caught it. Wait it moved. Bummer, ruling on the field stands.
Another option is to take away automatic review of plays like this. You want to win on a technicality late? Save a challenge and risk a timeout.
Another option is to let the refs decide live and make it unreviewable like arguing balls and strikes. Then let us argue and complain about the human process.
bucksoh
Footballguy
He had three feet down or does a knee not constitute two feet anymore? The football move was reaching across the goal line.
bucksoh
Footballguy
Steeler
Footballguy
I can't remember all the iterations of the catch rule - was the process of establishing the catch ever two feet down (or one knee down) with possession means it's a catch? I could see bang-bang plays in the middle of the field being a problem under this interpretation as well - but can't remember if that was ever actually the rule and if so, what play(s) caused that rule to be rewritten.
This, the bolded, is the bias I was referring to you.I'm sorry, I should have linked to how BB addressed the situation.
“That was not planned or anything,” Gronk said Sunday. “We got yelled at. We’re not allowed to talk about celebrations. That’s what we got told. I kinda want to talk about it, but I kinda don’t because I’ll get in trouble. So I don’t know what to do. It just happened on the spot. It wasn’t planned.
http://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2017/11/26/heres-the-td-celebration-that-got-rob-gronkowski-and-brandin-cooks-yelled-at/
so you are comparing Cooks riding Gronk ... to Ju-Ju mocking a player that he injured the week before?
Do you think Tomlin said a word to Ju Ju about his antics yesterday? More likely he laughed and high fived Ju Ju.
Did I mention that I think Big Ben strongly dislikes Tomlin. This carp has a lot to do with it.
It's possible that Tomlin responded like you posted. It's also possible he responded very similarly to how Gronk said BB responded.
You CHOOSING to believe the bolded, without any support for that belief, is what shows your bias.
Exactly. In the James' play, it was very clear that the ball came loose. There wasn't really any way to argue otherwise. Therefore, the different application of the rule IS NOT proof of some kind of pro-NE conspiracy on the part of the NFL. It's just a byproduct of not having enough evidence to over-rule the ruling on the field in 1 case (Cooks' TD) and having enough evidence to over-rule in the 2nd case (James' non-TD).
Football move isn't part of the rule any more. That being said, I understand what you are saying. It's a very similar argument that was made with the Dez catch/non-catch from the playoff game a few years ago. IIRC, that's why they removed the "football move" language. Dez diving forward & James lunging for the end zone should be construed as a "football move." But the rule now states the player must "demonstrate that he is clearly a runner." Since James lunged for the end zone as he was going to the ground, he did not meet that criteria. I posted this up thread, but if James had gone to the ground, then rolled into the EZ, he'd likely have been awarded the TD, even if the ball came out on the roll/dive, because that move (rolling/crawling/diving off the ground) would have likely met the definition of demonstrating that he is clearly a runner (and he'd probably have made it in before he was touched too, but he couldn't have known that.
Its a conspiracy!
Slow day for Ed Bouchette thinking of interesting story lines?
brettdj
Footballguy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m24r9JiKV14
at 1:06 caused the rule to be rewritten, and rewritten several times since.
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bucksoh
Footballguy
In the green bay game gerome Alllison clearly didn't catch the ball according to the rule, also the head of officiating clear stated that he was making a football move, when he clearly wasn't, according to the James non catch. Though it should have been ruled incomplete, just like the James catch. Yet how do people think they can be right when the head of officiating doesn't even know what a catch is.
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
It's actually true though. I don't know if I would say he's purposely aiding NE. But the ASJ overturn was horrible. This Jesse James one I can see happening due to the other calls that have been made in the past (which I do not agree with). The Cooks one puzzled me as well. Based on the current rule (which sucks), the Cooks TD shouldn't have counted, the ASJ TD should have, and Jesse James TD shouldn't. So 1 of 3 were ruled correctly, in my worthless opinion.
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