New Orleans offensive line (1 Viewer)

[AB in DC]

The OL performed well in 2006 (just 23 sacks allowed, 12th in FO "Adjusted Line Yards"). FBG ranked them 9th going into this year.

This year they look mediocre at best. I haven't seen any stats, but it seems like Brees has been hurried a lot more, and they haven't opened up as many holes for the running game.

What's going on?

 

[Doug B]

LT Jammal Brown was hurt for much of preseason with a bad knee (bone bruise on the left knee, IIRC, was the report). He came back to start the season, but there's no way he's right, I don't think. Both he and RT Jon Stinchcomb are getting abused off the edge. Brees has no pocket to throw in at all so far.

 

[Weapon of Mass Instruction]

Yes, I'm a homer -- BUT, the Titans' DLine is way, way, way improved from last year. Haynesworth is a beast and completely disruptive.

One thing to note -- coaches this year decided to move VandenBosch from LE to RE. He now plays next to Haynesworth. He typically has 1 on 1 with the LT whereas last year he'd have a TE or other double team. He and Haynesworth having 1 on 1 matchups side by side is creating a big problem for all OLines we've faced. Peyton had been sacked something like twice in the last 7 games -- Titans sacked him twice.

Titans had Corey Simon and Bryce Fisher...inactive, the starting 4 are playing so well.

 

[saintsfan]

It's a mystery. The Saints offensive line is young and should get better, not worse. It is the same 5 guys, they just aren't getting it done. Run blocking or pass blocking. For all the abuse the Saints defense gets (and rightly so, in most instances), it's the offense that's letting this team down. When you're defense is questionable, it is easier for them to play with a lead, something the Saints offense provided constantly last season. Thus far this season, we haven't been able to score.

Also, Brees doesn't seem right to me, either. He had some pressure at times last year, as well, and seemed to play OK under pressure. This season, he's just not the same.

 

[Obie Wan]

The OL performed well in 2006 (just 23 sacks allowed, 12th in FO "Adjusted Line Yards"). FBG ranked them 9th going into this year.This year they look mediocre at best. I haven't seen any stats, but it seems like Brees has been hurried a lot more, and they haven't opened up as many holes for the running game.What's going on?

The NFL did not decide to "help" them out this year. Without favorable officiating, it's a bit tougher to compete.

 

[nola]

the o-line, in addition to opening running lanes and pass blocking, is also supposed to open throwing lanes. Which are especially important for a short QB like Brees. Not only doesn't he have any time in the pocket, he also can't see who is open (and where the defenders are).

I'd like to think that things can't get much worse. With both tackles playing poorly, I wonder if they might flip them- Stinchcomb is a bum at either spot, but J. Brown is much, much better at right tackle than at left. It would be better, in my opinion, to have 1 bad tackle than 2 bad tackles.

 

[Doug B]

There's a good post over at saintsreport.com that's a fit for this thread. I will post it here, with props to SR.com forumite guillermo:

Teams have understood the most effective way to control the Saints is to attack the offense by pressing the middle.

Last year, teams looked to contain Reggie first by being disciplined and keeping their defensive positions. Since all of the linebackers and safeties were taking care of Reggie, teams seemed to either blitz from the outside or simply keep positions.

What teams have learned is that the saints seldom run from the inside. Even Deuce followed the gap between the tackles and guards. Now, instead of waiting for the pay to develop, the opposite teams are bringing the heat from the middle of the line, trying to either disrupt the rythm or simply to block the vision of Drew Brees.

By stocking the middle of the line teams have learned that not only they are disrupting the rythm and vision, they are also pushing Reggie to move out towards the sideline, where the outside backers and safeties are taking care of him.

All of the pressure at the centre of the line is also pressing both Brown and Stinchcomb to held their assignments by themselves, and both are having problems with speedy ends more than with bull-rushers.

I think that coach Marrone has a big problem to solve there.

To me two things have to happen in order to get the offense into rythm now.

1) Find a way to better contend the pressure from the defensive tackles and middle linebacker.

2) Attack the opposite teams by sticking the running back between the guards and centers, even when it doesn't work. We have to start worrying the defensive tackes in the running game, or they will continue to run free to the quaterback every single play.

 

[Doug B]

I'd like to think that things can't get much worse. With both tackles playing poorly, I wonder if they might flip them- Stinchcomb is a bum at either spot, but J. Brown is much, much better at right tackle than at left. It would be better, in my opinion, to have 1 bad tackle than 2 bad tackles.

Brown was in the Pro Bowl at LT. I agree that he'd be better at RT than Stinchcomb, but bringing Stinchcomb to LT is suicide.If it gets that bad that Brown has to be replaced (and he'd really banged up right now), Zach Streif may as well get the start at LT.

 

[nola]

He went to the pro bowl, but he didn't deserve to go. He couldn't handle speed rushers last season either, so its not just a health issue. Hes a good player, and a startable left tackle. But he just isn't quick. He is much better at right tackle.

Looking at this team, I just don't know where to start. They need a left tackle that would allow Brown to move back to the right. They need a TE that can block. They need to figyre out why the DEs, the strength of the defense, can't apply any pressure. They need WRs who fight for the ball. They need a new group of linebackers, corners, and safetys.

But since that can't all be accomplished quickly, they need to at least quit playing man coverage with the DBs. They suck. Maybe they could play zone. What would it hurt to try?

Last night the WRs didn't come back to the ball. And the D didn't tackle well at all. It was almost like they didn't ever hear about wraping arms around a guy. They just kept lunging at the ball carriers shoulder first... and missing.

There is a talent problem, but there is a coaching problem too.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

The OL performed well in 2006 (just 23 sacks allowed, 12th in FO "Adjusted Line Yards"). FBG ranked them 9th going into this year.This year they look mediocre at best. I haven't seen any stats, but it seems like Brees has been hurried a lot more, and they haven't opened up as many holes for the running game.What's going on?

The NFL did not decide to "help" them out this year. Without favorable officiating, it's a bit tougher to compete.

 

[shining path]

Yes, I'm a homer -- BUT, the Titans' DLine is way, way, way improved from last year. Haynesworth is a beast and completely disruptive.One thing to note -- coaches this year decided to move VandenBosch from LE to RE. He now plays next to Haynesworth. He typically has 1 on 1 with the LT whereas last year he'd have a TE or other double team. He and Haynesworth having 1 on 1 matchups side by side is creating a big problem for all OLines we've faced. Peyton had been sacked something like twice in the last 7 games -- Titans sacked him twice.Titans had Corey Simon and Bryce Fisher...inactive, the starting 4 are playing so well.

The Titans have a good D-line, but this has happened to the Saints for three consecutive weeks. It's not just quality competition.

 

[greyone]

Drew Brees needs his lucky birthmark/mole to be reapplied to his face. I can't look at him without it. The birthmark massacre curse is in full effect.

 

[Chaka]

There's a good post over at saintsreport.com that's a fit for this thread. I will post it here, with props to SR.com forumite guillermo:

Teams have understood the most effective way to control the Saints is to attack the offense by pressing the middle.

Last year, teams looked to contain Reggie first by being disciplined and keeping their defensive positions. Since all of the linebackers and safeties were taking care of Reggie, teams seemed to either blitz from the outside or simply keep positions.

What teams have learned is that the saints seldom run from the inside. Even Deuce followed the gap between the tackles and guards. Now, instead of waiting for the pay to develop, the opposite teams are bringing the heat from the middle of the line, trying to either disrupt the rythm or simply to block the vision of Drew Brees.

By stocking the middle of the line teams have learned that not only they are disrupting the rythm and vision, they are also pushing Reggie to move out towards the sideline, where the outside backers and safeties are taking care of him.

All of the pressure at the centre of the line is also pressing both Brown and Stinchcomb to held their assignments by themselves, and both are having problems with speedy ends more than with bull-rushers.

I think that coach Marrone has a big problem to solve there.

To me two things have to happen in order to get the offense into rythm now.

1) Find a way to better contend the pressure from the defensive tackles and middle linebacker.

2) Attack the opposite teams by sticking the running back between the guards and centers, even when it doesn't work. We have to start worrying the defensive tackes in the running game, or they will continue to run free to the quaterback every single play.

I wish I had read this before my draft.

 

[Todem]

The OL performed well in 2006 (just 23 sacks allowed, 12th in FO "Adjusted Line Yards"). FBG ranked them 9th going into this year.This year they look mediocre at best. I haven't seen any stats, but it seems like Brees has been hurried a lot more, and they haven't opened up as many holes for the running game.What's going on?

The NFL did not decide to "help" them out this year. Without favorable officiating, it's a bit tougher to compete.

Moronic post. Just plain bad.

 

[AB in DC]

Good post from saintsreport.com

Another take here from Football Outsiders

 

[Doug B]

Some more reading from Saintsreport:

by Klenzade:

Our offensive line season has been down-right nauseating. If someone would have asked me before the season where our weakest link was, I'd never say OL. But through three games, they are getting their rear-ends handed to them on a silver platter. I'll try to go into detail on each one below.

LT - Jammal Brown

He looks slower to me. He is getting beat on the corner by guys that are not Dwight Freeney. Freeney's play is expected because he's the cream of the crop on speedy DEs and is a great player. Jamal's footwork is off, and that could be because of his knees but he certainly looks slower and less agile than in the past. It doesn't help that he doesn't generate any push on running plays and he's being stood up most of the time.

LG - Jamar Nesbit

I wasn't sure about Jamar to begin with because he was a huge overachiever last season. He's quick but he lacks the essential technique to get into the defender and keep them in front of him. Haynesworth is a monster but he was giving him a simple rip move and going right past him without a lot of effort. He also gets little push on running plays and that is a shame because he is supposedly one of the stronger players on the team.

C - Jeff Faine

Wow, what can I say about Jeff. He's smart and makes a lot of plays because of that but you can tell he's outmatched physically nearly every play. He can't get any push on the DTs (even in doubles sometimes) and his pass blocking ability has seemed to also fade into the night. He seemed to play with a lot of fire last season and it is noticeably missing this year.

RG - Jahri Evans

Out of 5 guys, Jahri is the only guy I can truthfully say is playing well. He's getting push on running plays and he has improved his pass blocking. He's a monster and the rest of the guys need to match his play and intensity. It's sad though that his right hand man is the real link on the OL.

RT - Jon Stinchcomb

We thought he finally matured into a player for us but we were sadly mistaken. His technique is terrible and he can't seem to stop the speed rushers nor the bull rushers. He gets absolutely no push off the ball and can't seem to keep his guy off Brees. Whomever lined up over him the past few weeks has been in Brees face all game long. I think we need to start looking to our bench on this one. We can't allow this to go on.

=================================

I'll leave with that. Our guys are getting man-handled up front and our two bookend tackles are having problem with pass protection which puts our whole team in trouble. Getting no push off the ball is not helpful either with teams putting 8 and 9 guys in the box daring us to run. We can't get our guys across the line of scrimmage much less a positive play. I hope they can resolve this and get going as an unit because this was a strength last year and is now our biggest weakness.

by Armchair Expert:

Good assessment IMHO except that with Faine I noticed in the Colts and Bucs game several times where the man lined up directly over him came in up the middle without so much as a wave from Faine or Evans, where Faine turns left and Evans turns right. That indicates to me that either Faine is calling the wrong OL signals or Evans (right next to him) is not getting or understanding the signal. Other than that, the rest of what you state is fairly agreeable to what I've witnessed.

...This was a good thread to start, abrecher. A lot of people are just looking at the Sains' stats and coming to superficial, unreasoned conclusions, e.g. Brees has reverted back to 2003 form, Bush and Colston can't play, and so forth.

 

[Chaka]

Some more reading from Saintsreport:

by Klenzade:

Our offensive line season has been down-right nauseating. If someone would have asked me before the season where our weakest link was, I'd never say OL. But through three games, they are getting their rear-ends handed to them on a silver platter. I'll try to go into detail on each one below.

LT - Jammal Brown

He looks slower to me. He is getting beat on the corner by guys that are not Dwight Freeney. Freeney's play is expected because he's the cream of the crop on speedy DEs and is a great player. Jamal's footwork is off, and that could be because of his knees but he certainly looks slower and less agile than in the past. It doesn't help that he doesn't generate any push on running plays and he's being stood up most of the time.

LG - Jamar Nesbit

I wasn't sure about Jamar to begin with because he was a huge overachiever last season. He's quick but he lacks the essential technique to get into the defender and keep them in front of him. Haynesworth is a monster but he was giving him a simple rip move and going right past him without a lot of effort. He also gets little push on running plays and that is a shame because he is supposedly one of the stronger players on the team.

C - Jeff Faine

Wow, what can I say about Jeff. He's smart and makes a lot of plays because of that but you can tell he's outmatched physically nearly every play. He can't get any push on the DTs (even in doubles sometimes) and his pass blocking ability has seemed to also fade into the night. He seemed to play with a lot of fire last season and it is noticeably missing this year.

RG - Jahri Evans

Out of 5 guys, Jahri is the only guy I can truthfully say is playing well. He's getting push on running plays and he has improved his pass blocking. He's a monster and the rest of the guys need to match his play and intensity. It's sad though that his right hand man is the real link on the OL.

RT - Jon Stinchcomb

We thought he finally matured into a player for us but we were sadly mistaken. His technique is terrible and he can't seem to stop the speed rushers nor the bull rushers. He gets absolutely no push off the ball and can't seem to keep his guy off Brees. Whomever lined up over him the past few weeks has been in Brees face all game long. I think we need to start looking to our bench on this one. We can't allow this to go on.

=================================

I'll leave with that. Our guys are getting man-handled up front and our two bookend tackles are having problem with pass protection which puts our whole team in trouble. Getting no push off the ball is not helpful either with teams putting 8 and 9 guys in the box daring us to run. We can't get our guys across the line of scrimmage much less a positive play. I hope they can resolve this and get going as an unit because this was a strength last year and is now our biggest weakness.

by Armchair Expert:

Good assessment IMHO except that with Faine I noticed in the Colts and Bucs game several times where the man lined up directly over him came in up the middle without so much as a wave from Faine or Evans, where Faine turns left and Evans turns right. That indicates to me that either Faine is calling the wrong OL signals or Evans (right next to him) is not getting or understanding the signal. Other than that, the rest of what you state is fairly agreeable to what I've witnessed.

...This was a good thread to start, abrecher. A lot of people are just looking at the Sains' stats and coming to superficial, unreasoned conclusions, e.g. Brees has reverted back to 2003 form, Bush and Colston can't play, and so forth.

True indeed. But ultimately the why doesn't really matter if the result is going to stay the same.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

There's a good post over at saintsreport.com that's a fit for this thread. I will post it here, with props to SR.com forumite guillermo:

Teams have understood the most effective way to control the Saints is to attack the offense by pressing the middle.

Last year, teams looked to contain Reggie first by being disciplined and keeping their defensive positions. Since all of the linebackers and safeties were taking care of Reggie, teams seemed to either blitz from the outside or simply keep positions.

What teams have learned is that the saints seldom run from the inside. Even Deuce followed the gap between the tackles and guards. Now, instead of waiting for the pay to develop, the opposite teams are bringing the heat from the middle of the line, trying to either disrupt the rythm or simply to block the vision of Drew Brees.

By stocking the middle of the line teams have learned that not only they are disrupting the rythm and vision, they are also pushing Reggie to move out towards the sideline, where the outside backers and safeties are taking care of him.

All of the pressure at the centre of the line is also pressing both Brown and Stinchcomb to held their assignments by themselves, and both are having problems with speedy ends more than with bull-rushers.

I think that coach Marrone has a big problem to solve there.

To me two things have to happen in order to get the offense into rythm now.

1) Find a way to better contend the pressure from the defensive tackles and middle linebacker.

2) Attack the opposite teams by sticking the running back between the guards and centers, even when it doesn't work. We have to start worrying the defensive tackes in the running game, or they will continue to run free to the quaterback every single play.

One play that I'm surprised that I haven't seen out of the Saints, that seemed like a staple of the offense last season, was having Bush flare out of the backfield and Coleston run a slant-stop between the CB and the OLB. If the CB broke inside on Coleston, Brees would throw it to Bush who'd often outrun the OLB to the outside, and if the CB stayed outside, Coleston would beat the LB in coverage. If teams are sending the MLB, I'm surprised that the Saints aren't using this more as the safety would have to help out on Eric Johnson giving Coleston a lot of room vs the OLB. I thought the Ravens had the best strategy vs the Saints offense last season of bltizing heavily to Bush's side of the formation, forcing Bush to stay in the backfield and pick it up, or have a blitzer coming free at Brees. But this is the opposite of what the SR poster said is happened.

 

[Statorama]

The Saints really need to get back to the basics with this thing. The coaching staff has gotten caught playing it too "cutesy" with the offense and needs to recognize that. Eric Johnson can't block, and it doesn't matter how good his hands are if Brees doesn't have time to throw. The coaches consistently put the offensive line in a position where it's only those 5 guys blocking against whatever the defense throws at them. The coaches have to understand that other teams watch film too. They are not just going to bow their heads and let the Saints play whatever kind of offense they want. Saints need to replace Johnson on most downs with Campbell. Karney needs to be in the backfield on every play (easier now with Deuce down, but they could have lined up Bush as a slot WR with Deuce and Karney in the backfield most plays).

And yeah, I'm going to say it...they need to get in a time machine to April and draft someone in the first round that can help them and NOT draft a practice squad WR. Watching the Saints draft a new toy for their offensive coordinator was the first snowball in this avalanche. It really hurts that Staley and Grubbs were taken right after Meachem and are both starting on the offensive line for the teams that picked them. Picking a solid offensive lineman isn't as sexy as picking the WR that can run 4.3 in practice, but they help you win ballgames.

 

[watsonrm]

Another homer article about our "offensive" line play.

http://www.nola.com/saints/t-p/index.ssf?/....xml&coll=1

 

[Doug B]

Saints need to replace Johnson on most downs with Campbell.

Stat, Mark Campbell is hurt right now ... but I'm glad you brought this up. You're right, I think, about the Saints trying to block 5-on-whatever too often. Last year, the TE stayed in a lot and chipped on running plays, or helped double-team on passing downs.But this year, with Campbell going down, we've got two no-block TEs active on Sundays -- Eric Johnson and Billy Miller. That has to compromise some of the protection packages that were used last year.

 

[Doug B]

True indeed. But ultimately the why doesn't really matter if the result is going to stay the same.

Well, Chaka ... we don't know that the result is going to stay the same. I wouldn't just up and assume the issues aren't fixable (save Brown's knee, I believe, which needs time off the field to heal). Personnel changes could help. Signing a FA blocking TE could help. Scheme changes could help. Simplifying/modifying the line calls could help. And so on.

 

[Doug B]

And yeah, I'm going to say it...they need to get in a time machine to April and draft someone in the first round that can help them and NOT draft a practice squad WR.

Hindsight is 20/20 ... but man, wouldn't Tony Ugoh have been nice at that spot?

 

[Banger]

There's a good post over at saintsreport.com that's a fit for this thread. I will post it here, with props to SR.com forumite guillermo:

Teams have understood the most effective way to control the Saints is to attack the offense by pressing the middle.

Last year, teams looked to contain Reggie first by being disciplined and keeping their defensive positions. Since all of the linebackers and safeties were taking care of Reggie, teams seemed to either blitz from the outside or simply keep positions.

What teams have learned is that the saints seldom run from the inside. Even Deuce followed the gap between the tackles and guards. Now, instead of waiting for the pay to develop, the opposite teams are bringing the heat from the middle of the line, trying to either disrupt the rythm or simply to block the vision of Drew Brees.

By stocking the middle of the line teams have learned that not only they are disrupting the rythm and vision, they are also pushing Reggie to move out towards the sideline, where the outside backers and safeties are taking care of him.

All of the pressure at the centre of the line is also pressing both Brown and Stinchcomb to held their assignments by themselves, and both are having problems with speedy ends more than with bull-rushers.

I think that coach Marrone has a big problem to solve there.

To me two things have to happen in order to get the offense into rythm now.

1) Find a way to better contend the pressure from the defensive tackles and middle linebacker.

2) Attack the opposite teams by sticking the running back between the guards and centers, even when it doesn't work. We have to start worrying the defensive tackes in the running game, or they will continue to run free to the quaterback every single play.

This is great stuff and it probably won't get an easier now with losing their best running back for the season.

 

[Doug B]

This is great stuff and it probably won't get an easier now with losing their best running back for the season.

Deuce's injury sucks from a heart-and-soul standpoint ... but he wasn't particularly effective as of yet. I'm not sure he was 100%.One more thread from Saintsreport worth checking out. A point is made that I had overlooked: in the preseason, when the Saints' starting offense was at its most effective, the starting line was (left to right) Zach Streif, Jamar Nesbit, Jonathan Goodwin, Jahri Evans, and Jon Stinchcomb -- with a healthy Mark Campbell at TE helping.

But now the Saints are going with a gimpy Jammal Brown, Jamar Nesbit, Jeff Faine, Jahri Evans, and Jon Stinchcomb, with light-blocking Eric Johnson as the starting TE. I mean, we know it was just preseason. But still ... the Saints starting offense looked lights-out after the HOF game against the Steelers (in which Brown started at LT and got hurt).

 

[Diabolic]

The Saints really need to get back to the basics with this thing. The coaching staff has gotten caught playing it too "cutesy" with the offense and needs to recognize that. Eric Johnson can't block, and it doesn't matter how good his hands are if Brees doesn't have time to throw. The coaches consistently put the offensive line in a position where it's only those 5 guys blocking against whatever the defense throws at them. The coaches have to understand that other teams watch film too. They are not just going to bow their heads and let the Saints play whatever kind of offense they want. Saints need to replace Johnson on most downs with Campbell. Karney needs to be in the backfield on every play (easier now with Deuce down, but they could have lined up Bush as a slot WR with Deuce and Karney in the backfield most plays) .

And yeah, I'm going to say it...they need to get in a time machine to April and draft someone in the first round that can help them and NOT draft a practice squad WR. Watching the Saints draft a new toy for their offensive coordinator was the first snowball in this avalanche. It really hurts that Staley and Grubbs were taken right after Meachem and are both starting on the offensive line for the teams that picked them. Picking a solid offensive lineman isn't as sexy as picking the WR that can run 4.3 in practice, but they help you win ballgames.

I think this really nails down the problem. I couldn't agree more with your summation that a) the coaching staff is now trying to be too clever and b) that Karney should have been in the backfield on virtually EVERY play that the Saints have run this season. It's almost like the staff's thinking process is that the o-line was so good last year, they can reduce the number of blockers to the base 5 and still - magically - hope to hold off everything coming at them. It's simply unrealistic and the results on the field show that. In the end, the responsiblity is on the coaches.

 

[Doug B]

Another take here from Football Outsiders

Abrecher, that is a great article, thanks for posting the link.

 

[cjack]

Could it have to do with the fact that all of their first names start with the letter "J"?