NY Giants TE situation (1 Viewer)

[pittstownkiller]

With Ballard and Beckum out with torn ACLs, and the amount of time needed to recover from this injury, I would suspect NYG would make securing a pass-catching TE as a priority; is this coming from the draft, or as a FA? If Manningham leaves, and say they re-sign Smith, does that leave Cruz in the slot and reduce the need for a pass-catching TE, do they move Cruz outside and sign a cheap slot receiver increasing the need for a pass-catching TE? NYG are right near their salary cap and at least a few are going to be looking for a raise; how much can they afford to spend at TE anyway? Does either Ballard or Beckum return no problem before for the season?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

It would certainly seem like they would look for another tight end with some pass catching ability.

 

[pittstownkiller]

It would certainly seem like they would look for another tight end with some pass catching ability.

Yeah I got that, care to venture a guess on what kind of priority they put on it, or how they go about it?

 

[Couch Potato]

Neither is likely to return and be useful by the start of the season.

Significant available UFAs (ignoring Finley, Fred Davis, Scott Chandler who are highly likely to return to their own teams via long term contract or franchise tag, and also ignoring lesser names) --

Bennett, Martellus DAL (definitely gone from DAL and looking for a starting job)

Tamme, Jacob IND (could return to IND though)

Davis, Kellen CHI (wants to start in CHI though)

Dreessen, Joel HOU (I'm unaware of his desire to return to HOU)

Carlson, John SEA (had some good years early in career, and trade for Z Miller means highly likely to exit)

Pope, Leonard KC (filled in OK for Moeaki last year, he's no great shakes though)

Fells, Daniel DEN (starter last year, limited abilities)

Shiancoe, Visanthe MIN (getting up in years for a TE but lots of starting experience. moving on with Rudolph taking over in MIN)

Shockey, Jeremy CAR (probably moving on from CAR, still has some mojo despite age)

 

[netnalp]

Neither is likely to return and be useful by the start of the season.

Significant available UFAs (ignoring Finley, Fred Davis, Scott Chandler who are highly likely to return to their own teams via long term contract or franchise tag, and also ignoring lesser names) --

Bennett, Martellus DAL (definitely gone from DAL and looking for a starting job)

Tamme, Jacob IND (could return to IND though)

Davis, Kellen CHI (wants to start in CHI though)

Dreessen, Joel HOU (I'm unaware of his desire to return to HOU)

Carlson, John SEA (had some good years early in career, and trade for Z Miller means highly likely to exit)

Pope, Leonard KC (filled in OK for Moeaki last year, he's no great shakes though)

Fells, Daniel DEN (starter last year, limited abilities)

Shiancoe, Visanthe MIN (getting up in years for a TE but lots of starting experience. moving on with Rudolph taking over in MIN)

Shockey, Jeremy CAR (probably moving on from CAR, still has some mojo despite age)

These probably are the types they'll be looking at. I imagine they'll sign one FA before the draft. I wonder if they will sign a second FA before the draft or wait on a second guy till after they see how the draft pans out. I'd like the Giants to get 1 or 2 of the first four. Bennett interests me because the Giants have had pretty good success with cast offs from the Cowboys.GM Jerry Reese said The two TEs will probably be on the PUP next season. But with FA and the draft coming so soon after Beckum and Ballard got hurt, they'll have to make decisions based on the assumption that neither TE will be healthy enough to play. The PUP stuff is just talk, I really doubt they play.

 

[Boone22]

Keep in mind that Shiancoe started with the Giants. I'm not sure they want him back or if he left on good terms but there's a connection there.

 

[IrishTwinkie]

Keep in mind that Shiancoe started with the Giants. I'm not sure they want him back or if he left on good terms but there's a connection there.

Shockey too. I can't remember if Shiancoe left on good terms, I seem to remember that he did. I think it was just FA move for him. Shockey less so and I'd be surprised if they went that way.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Keep in mind that Shiancoe started with the Giants. I'm not sure they want him back or if he left on good terms but there's a connection there.

Shockey too. I can't remember if Shiancoe left on good terms, I seem to remember that he did. I think it was just FA move for him. Shockey less so and I'd be surprised if they went that way.

Eli does not like Shockey at all (I heard on the radio yesterday that a former player said Shockey was Eli's Santonio Holmes) - Shianco only left because the Vikings offered him a (relatively) absurd amount of money. I wouldn't be shocked if the Giants would take him back at the right price.

 

[Yenrub]

Keep in mind that Shiancoe started with the Giants. I'm not sure they want him back or if he left on good terms but there's a connection there.

Shockey too. I can't remember if Shiancoe left on good terms, I seem to remember that he did. I think it was just FA move for him. Shockey less so and I'd be surprised if they went that way.

Eli does not like Shockey at all (I heard on the radio yesterday that a former player said Shockey was Eli's Santonio Holmes) - Shianco only left because the Vikings offered him a (relatively) absurd amount of money. I wouldn't be shocked if the Giants would take him back at the right price.

I heard that as well. I believe it was Amani Toomer that said this

 

[pittstownkiller]

Interesting responses. The reason that I started this thread is that I feel a lot of the NYG offense will pour through the TE position; I will be targeting a Giants TE in my draft I'm just curious how high I have to pick him depending on the name.

 

[JohnnyU]

All 3 of the top rookie TEs (Allen, Charles, and Fleener) should be on the board when they pick. I'd bet the farm they select one of them if they don't sign Dressen.

 

[Riflemen]

I'd love to snag Tamme. Guy played like a star in Indy when Clark went down. Can stretch the field in the seams and I'm sure Peyton would give him a good recommendation. Haven't watched enough of him to know if he can block or not.

 

[identikit]

I'd love to snag Tamme. Guy played like a star in Indy when Clark went down. Can stretch the field in the seams and I'm sure Peyton would give him a good recommendation. Haven't watched enough of him to know if he can block or not.

Tamme's not much of a blocker.

 

[Sweet Love]

Neither is likely to return and be useful by the start of the season.

Significant available UFAs (ignoring Finley, Fred Davis, Scott Chandler who are highly likely to return to their own teams via long term contract or franchise tag, and also ignoring lesser names) --

Bennett, Martellus DAL (definitely gone from DAL and looking for a starting job)

Tamme, Jacob IND (could return to IND though)

Davis, Kellen CHI (wants to start in CHI though)

Dreessen, Joel HOU (I'm unaware of his desire to return to HOU)

Carlson, John SEA (had some good years early in career, and trade for Z Miller means highly likely to exit)

Pope, Leonard KC (filled in OK for Moeaki last year, he's no great shakes though)

Fells, Daniel DEN (starter last year, limited abilities)

Shiancoe, Visanthe MIN (getting up in years for a TE but lots of starting experience. moving on with Rudolph taking over in MIN)

Shockey, Jeremy CAR (probably moving on from CAR, still has some mojo despite age)

These probably are the types they'll be looking at. I imagine they'll sign one FA before the draft. I wonder if they will sign a second FA before the draft or wait on a second guy till after they see how the draft pans out. I'd like the Giants to get 1 or 2 of the first four. Bennett interests me because the Giants have had pretty good success with cast offs from the Cowboys.GM Jerry Reese said The two TEs will probably be on the PUP next season. But with FA and the draft coming so soon after Beckum and Ballard got hurt, they'll have to make decisions based on the assumption that neither TE will be healthy enough to play. The PUP stuff is just talk, I really doubt they play.

Personally, I think you are looking at the bottom half of that list...Carlson is the best bargain of the group (costs the same but has the most ability)...they are not going to get a pass-catcher as Coughlin does not value them...he needs someone who can block first and catch second (which is why I like Carlson (he can do both)). They are going to grab a random place holder until Beckham and Ballard can get healthy...they have never spent money on the position in the past, so why would they start now?

 

[JohnnyU]

Neither is likely to return and be useful by the start of the season.

Significant available UFAs (ignoring Finley, Fred Davis, Scott Chandler who are highly likely to return to their own teams via long term contract or franchise tag, and also ignoring lesser names) --

Bennett, Martellus DAL (definitely gone from DAL and looking for a starting job)

Tamme, Jacob IND (could return to IND though)

Davis, Kellen CHI (wants to start in CHI though)

Dreessen, Joel HOU (I'm unaware of his desire to return to HOU)

Carlson, John SEA (had some good years early in career, and trade for Z Miller means highly likely to exit)

Pope, Leonard KC (filled in OK for Moeaki last year, he's no great shakes though)

Fells, Daniel DEN (starter last year, limited abilities)

Shiancoe, Visanthe MIN (getting up in years for a TE but lots of starting experience. moving on with Rudolph taking over in MIN)

Shockey, Jeremy CAR (probably moving on from CAR, still has some mojo despite age)

These probably are the types they'll be looking at. I imagine they'll sign one FA before the draft. I wonder if they will sign a second FA before the draft or wait on a second guy till after they see how the draft pans out. I'd like the Giants to get 1 or 2 of the first four. Bennett interests me because the Giants have had pretty good success with cast offs from the Cowboys.GM Jerry Reese said The two TEs will probably be on the PUP next season. But with FA and the draft coming so soon after Beckum and Ballard got hurt, they'll have to make decisions based on the assumption that neither TE will be healthy enough to play. The PUP stuff is just talk, I really doubt they play.

Personally, I think you are looking at the bottom half of that list...Carlson is the best bargain of the group (costs the same but has the most ability)...they are not going to get a pass-catcher as Coughlin does not value them...he needs someone who can block first and catch second (which is why I like Carlson (he can do both)). They are going to grab a random place holder until Beckham and Ballard can get healthy...they have never spent money on the position in the past, so why would they start now?

I heard that Zach Miller is unhappy in Seattle. Maybe they swing a deal for him? Man, would that ever rejuvinate his fantasy value.

 

[Avery]

All 3 of the top rookie TEs (Allen, Charles, and Fleener) should be on the board when they pick. I'd bet the farm they select one of them if they don't sign Dressen.

Possibly, but Reece has always been a BPA drafter, especially early in the draft. For example, they had far greater needs than DE when they drafted Kiwanuka and Pierre-Paul.

 

[Avery]

Ballard did a fine workman like Job and Beckham had been nothing but a disappointment anyway and there was a good chance he'd been gone regardless.

Point is it was a need anyway, just a bit more critical now.

 

[Riflemen]

Neither is likely to return and be useful by the start of the season.

Significant available UFAs (ignoring Finley, Fred Davis, Scott Chandler who are highly likely to return to their own teams via long term contract or franchise tag, and also ignoring lesser names) --

Bennett, Martellus DAL (definitely gone from DAL and looking for a starting job)

Tamme, Jacob IND (could return to IND though)

Davis, Kellen CHI (wants to start in CHI though)

Dreessen, Joel HOU (I'm unaware of his desire to return to HOU)

Carlson, John SEA (had some good years early in career, and trade for Z Miller means highly likely to exit)

Pope, Leonard KC (filled in OK for Moeaki last year, he's no great shakes though)

Fells, Daniel DEN (starter last year, limited abilities)

Shiancoe, Visanthe MIN (getting up in years for a TE but lots of starting experience. moving on with Rudolph taking over in MIN)

Shockey, Jeremy CAR (probably moving on from CAR, still has some mojo despite age)

These probably are the types they'll be looking at. I imagine they'll sign one FA before the draft. I wonder if they will sign a second FA before the draft or wait on a second guy till after they see how the draft pans out. I'd like the Giants to get 1 or 2 of the first four. Bennett interests me because the Giants have had pretty good success with cast offs from the Cowboys.GM Jerry Reese said The two TEs will probably be on the PUP next season. But with FA and the draft coming so soon after Beckum and Ballard got hurt, they'll have to make decisions based on the assumption that neither TE will be healthy enough to play. The PUP stuff is just talk, I really doubt they play.

Personally, I think you are looking at the bottom half of that list...Carlson is the best bargain of the group (costs the same but has the most ability)...they are not going to get a pass-catcher as Coughlin does not value them...he needs someone who can block first and catch second (which is why I like Carlson (he can do both)). They are going to grab a random place holder until Beckham and Ballard can get healthy...they have never spent money on the position in the past, so why would they start now?

Carlson or Miller would be an upgrade in my eyes. I highly doubt we'll see Beckham back in a Giant uniform. I believe he's only under contract through 2012. Disappointing Giant career IMO.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Neither is likely to return and be useful by the start of the season.

Significant available UFAs (ignoring Finley, Fred Davis, Scott Chandler who are highly likely to return to their own teams via long term contract or franchise tag, and also ignoring lesser names) --

Bennett, Martellus DAL (definitely gone from DAL and looking for a starting job)

Tamme, Jacob IND (could return to IND though)

Davis, Kellen CHI (wants to start in CHI though)

Dreessen, Joel HOU (I'm unaware of his desire to return to HOU)

Carlson, John SEA (had some good years early in career, and trade for Z Miller means highly likely to exit)

Pope, Leonard KC (filled in OK for Moeaki last year, he's no great shakes though)

Fells, Daniel DEN (starter last year, limited abilities)

Shiancoe, Visanthe MIN (getting up in years for a TE but lots of starting experience. moving on with Rudolph taking over in MIN)

Shockey, Jeremy CAR (probably moving on from CAR, still has some mojo despite age)

These probably are the types they'll be looking at. I imagine they'll sign one FA before the draft. I wonder if they will sign a second FA before the draft or wait on a second guy till after they see how the draft pans out. I'd like the Giants to get 1 or 2 of the first four. Bennett interests me because the Giants have had pretty good success with cast offs from the Cowboys.GM Jerry Reese said The two TEs will probably be on the PUP next season. But with FA and the draft coming so soon after Beckum and Ballard got hurt, they'll have to make decisions based on the assumption that neither TE will be healthy enough to play. The PUP stuff is just talk, I really doubt they play.

Personally, I think you are looking at the bottom half of that list...Carlson is the best bargain of the group (costs the same but has the most ability)...they are not going to get a pass-catcher as Coughlin does not value them...he needs someone who can block first and catch second (which is why I like Carlson (he can do both)). They are going to grab a random place holder until Beckham and Ballard can get healthy...they have never spent money on the position in the past, so why would they start now?

I heard that Zach Miller is unhappy in Seattle. Maybe they swing a deal for him? Man, would that ever rejuvinate his fantasy value.

Cant see that happening unless Seattle released him. Giants are already over the cap and he's making 7 million per.

 

[netnalp]

Neither is likely to return and be useful by the start of the season.

Significant available UFAs (ignoring Finley, Fred Davis, Scott Chandler who are highly likely to return to their own teams via long term contract or franchise tag, and also ignoring lesser names) --

Bennett, Martellus DAL (definitely gone from DAL and looking for a starting job)

Tamme, Jacob IND (could return to IND though)

Davis, Kellen CHI (wants to start in CHI though)

Dreessen, Joel HOU (I'm unaware of his desire to return to HOU)

Carlson, John SEA (had some good years early in career, and trade for Z Miller means highly likely to exit)

Pope, Leonard KC (filled in OK for Moeaki last year, he's no great shakes though)

Fells, Daniel DEN (starter last year, limited abilities)

Shiancoe, Visanthe MIN (getting up in years for a TE but lots of starting experience. moving on with Rudolph taking over in MIN)

Shockey, Jeremy CAR (probably moving on from CAR, still has some mojo despite age)

These probably are the types they'll be looking at. I imagine they'll sign one FA before the draft. I wonder if they will sign a second FA before the draft or wait on a second guy till after they see how the draft pans out. I'd like the Giants to get 1 or 2 of the first four. Bennett interests me because the Giants have had pretty good success with cast offs from the Cowboys.GM Jerry Reese said The two TEs will probably be on the PUP next season. But with FA and the draft coming so soon after Beckum and Ballard got hurt, they'll have to make decisions based on the assumption that neither TE will be healthy enough to play. The PUP stuff is just talk, I really doubt they play.

Personally, I think you are looking at the bottom half of that list...Carlson is the best bargain of the group (costs the same but has the most ability)...they are not going to get a pass-catcher as Coughlin does not value them...he needs someone who can block first and catch second (which is why I like Carlson (he can do both)). They are going to grab a random place holder until Beckham and Ballard can get healthy...they have never spent money on the position in the past, so why would they start now?

Is it safe to say that Coughlin and Gilbride don't value TEs? I think it needs to be considered that the Giants just haven't had a talent at TE that warranted more involvement. Shockey played one year under Gilbride's system, had countless injuries and was such a disruption that he had to go. The team drafts BPA, not for need. It is possible that when the Giants pick has come around that they felt the TE value wasn't there. In 2007 they had Shockey, so it's not surprising they passed on Olsen and Miller, there's not guarantee that they valued them over CB Aaron Ross in the first round. In 2010 Gresham and Gronkowski were available but it is hard to argue that they would provide greater value than what the Giants have acquired in JPP.

According to FO, the Giants for the past several years have been in the top of teams that keep TEs and RBs in to block. It seems to me that the Giants highly value blocking ability in a TE and are not willing to primarily use a pass catching TE with terrible blocking skills, like Beckum.

Being so close to the cap each year, the Giants haven't been able to go after any exceptional FA TE talents and TEs that are skilled at both blocking and receiving don't become available often. Tony Gonzalez cost the Falcons a second round pick, perhaps that and his contract were more than the Giants could spend. It's not like the current coaching staff has been like the Bears, getting rid of Olsen when he didn't fit Martz's scheme. Again with Olsen, his cap number probably wasn't something the Giants could afford.

The most affordable way for the Giants to improve the TE spot is through the draft. I just don't think that the Giants' picks, the TE value and the degree of need has synched up in past drafts.

I like Martellus Bennett because I've heard he was considered to have had natural talent but has underachieved with the Cowboys. In my opinion, the Cowboys as an organization and team have underachieved for several years, I think it is entirely possible that Bennett hasn't been in a situation where he could develop. A change of scenery could change that. His price shouldn't be very high and should be easy to cut if he doesn't work out.

I think the Giants grab a couple of the cheap TEs from this list, draft one and then bring in a few undrafted FA, practice squad guys or no names cut by other teams to compete in OTAs and camp.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I think, as I have said already, that the Giants TE next year is going to see a lot of action; I think this use of the TE works well in the NFC east and also moves the chains without exposing the ball to unnecessary risks. A passing attack with ball control, to open up the run, is going to be what Coughlin/Gilbride are shooting for.

 

[Redwes25]

I think, as I have said already, that the Giants TE next year is going to see a lot of action; I think this use of the TE works well in the NFC east and also moves the chains without exposing the ball to unnecessary risks. A passing attack with ball control, to open up the run, is going to be what Coughlin/Gilbride are shooting for.

The slot WR fills that role in the Gilbride offense. See Steve Smith and Victor Cruz as examples of WR used heavily to move the chains on third down. Gilbride has never really used a pass catching TE in his offensive schemes. Did the Oilers even have a TE on its roster?

 

[Chairshot]

I'd echo the people who have said they will want a TE that blocks first but has some pass catching ability. Carlson seems like a perfect fit on paper but the Giants can sometimes value players outside the norm.

The Giants are one of the few teams in the league that still value power running, which requires good blocking. All they need out of their TE is 30-35 catches. Mostly their TEs block. I don't think they have had a TE catch more than 40 or so balls since Shockey left. It's just the type of offense they run these days.

 

[netnalp]

I think, as I have said already, that the Giants TE next year is going to see a lot of action; I think this use of the TE works well in the NFC east and also moves the chains without exposing the ball to unnecessary risks. A passing attack with ball control, to open up the run, is going to be what Coughlin/Gilbride are shooting for.

Makes sense. One reason Eli cut down on his INTs and Cruz had set the team record for yards was an increase in passing inside the hash marks. A TE could be real busy if teams are giving Nicks and Cruz most of the attention. It's finding that hidden gems that will be the trick. They can't pay or trade for an expensive FA. If the TEs in the draft are BPA at #32 then maybe they grab one.

 

[netnalp]

I think, as I have said already, that the Giants TE next year is going to see a lot of action; I think this use of the TE works well in the NFC east and also moves the chains without exposing the ball to unnecessary risks. A passing attack with ball control, to open up the run, is going to be what Coughlin/Gilbride are shooting for.

The slot WR fills that role in the Gilbride offense. See Steve Smith and Victor Cruz as examples of WR used heavily to move the chains on third down. Gilbride has never really used a pass catching TE in his offensive schemes. Did the Oilers even have a TE on its roster?

But that was the Run N' Shoot and those teams used a 4th WR most of the time. Giants don't go with 4+ WRs as much as those Oilers, Falcons, and Lions teams.

 

[identikit]

I don't know.

I see the NYG TE as 4th option at best.

Not that Eli doesn't spread the ball around, but consistent production will be tough to come by IMO. Kevin Boss comes to mind on this point.

And as stated earlier, he better be a good blocker.

 

[Redwes25]

I think, as I have said already, that the Giants TE next year is going to see a lot of action; I think this use of the TE works well in the NFC east and also moves the chains without exposing the ball to unnecessary risks. A passing attack with ball control, to open up the run, is going to be what Coughlin/Gilbride are shooting for.

The slot WR fills that role in the Gilbride offense. See Steve Smith and Victor Cruz as examples of WR used heavily to move the chains on third down. Gilbride has never really used a pass catching TE in his offensive schemes. Did the Oilers even have a TE on its roster?

But that was the Run N' Shoot and those teams used a 4th WR most of the time. Giants don't go with 4+ WRs as much as those Oilers, Falcons, and Lions teams.

I know but that shows a philosphy of not using a TE as a weapon in the passing game. The giants have used the slot WR heavily the last few years and TE has not been important. I don't think that changes next year at all. I think the offense is going to be very similar to how it has been the last few years. I don't see any reason why this would change. In the three years Boss was the starting TE he averaged 36 receptions a game. Ballard had 38 this year though he did miss sometime. I think at max you get 45 receptions out of the starting giants TE in this scheme.Any thoughts on why a new philosphy develops.

 

[netnalp]

I'd echo the people who have said they will want a TE that blocks first but has some pass catching ability. Carlson seems like a perfect fit on paper but the Giants can sometimes value players outside the norm.The Giants are one of the few teams in the league that still value power running, which requires good blocking. All they need out of their TE is 30-35 catches. Mostly their TEs block. I don't think they have had a TE catch more than 40 or so balls since Shockey left. It's just the type of offense they run these days.

But is the getting only 30-35 catches what the Giants only want their TE to get or has that been more because of the talent the Giants have had at TE with Boss and Ballard. It seems to me, since the Giants haven't had a dominating talent at TE to use as a focus of the offense, the TEs have been used as more of a surprise. The Giants run and pass out of the same formations, so the defense can't be certain if the TE is going to block or run a route. That's why they value a guy that can block too, because of the uncertainty a TE like that causes. Seemed like many of Ballard's catches were ones where he slipped out and the defense didn't account for him.It was hoped that Beckum would become that dual threat blocker and receiver, but his poor blocking and horrid route running put him in the doghouse.

 

[Redwes25]

I'd echo the people who have said they will want a TE that blocks first but has some pass catching ability. Carlson seems like a perfect fit on paper but the Giants can sometimes value players outside the norm.

The Giants are one of the few teams in the league that still value power running, which requires good blocking. All they need out of their TE is 30-35 catches. Mostly their TEs block. I don't think they have had a TE catch more than 40 or so balls since Shockey left. It's just the type of offense they run these days.

But is the getting only 30-35 catches what the Giants only want their TE to get or has that been more because of the talent the Giants have had at TE with Boss and Ballard. It seems to me, since the Giants haven't had a dominating talent at TE to use as a focus of the offense, the TEs have been used as more of a surprise. The Giants run and pass out of the same formations, so the defense can't be certain if the TE is going to block or run a route. That's why they value a guy that can block too, because of the uncertainty a TE like that causes. Seemed like many of Ballard's catches were ones where he slipped out and the defense didn't account for him.

It was hoped that Beckum would become that dual threat blocker and receiver, but his poor blocking and horrid route running put him in the doghouse.

I think you nailed their philsophy. Much more of a role player/3rd or fourth option then a primary receiving threat in their system.

 

[netnalp]

I think, as I have said already, that the Giants TE next year is going to see a lot of action; I think this use of the TE works well in the NFC east and also moves the chains without exposing the ball to unnecessary risks. A passing attack with ball control, to open up the run, is going to be what Coughlin/Gilbride are shooting for.

The slot WR fills that role in the Gilbride offense. See Steve Smith and Victor Cruz as examples of WR used heavily to move the chains on third down. Gilbride has never really used a pass catching TE in his offensive schemes. Did the Oilers even have a TE on its roster?

But that was the Run N' Shoot and those teams used a 4th WR most of the time. Giants don't go with 4+ WRs as much as those Oilers, Falcons, and Lions teams.

I know but that shows a philosphy of not using a TE as a weapon in the passing game. The giants have used the slot WR heavily the last few years and TE has not been important. I don't think that changes next year at all. I think the offense is going to be very similar to how it has been the last few years. I don't see any reason why this would change. In the three years Boss was the starting TE he averaged 36 receptions a game. Ballard had 38 this year though he did miss sometime. I think at max you get 45 receptions out of the starting giants TE in this scheme.Any thoughts on why a new philosphy develops.

I agree that the slot WR has gotten more use in there scheme. I just feel that's been because the talent at slot WR has been greater than the talent at TE. I agree that nothing will change unless the Giants acquire a TE that has the talent to warrant more targets. Like, if the Giants had a talent like Witten, that TE would see more than the 50 catches that Shockey got and more than what Boss and Ballard saw. Not much should change because the Giants are unlikely to find in FA or draft a player that will be talented enough to get more looks. The talent has to be there before a change occurs in this offense. Currently the player to cause that isn't on the roster yet.

 

[netnalp]

I'd echo the people who have said they will want a TE that blocks first but has some pass catching ability. Carlson seems like a perfect fit on paper but the Giants can sometimes value players outside the norm.

The Giants are one of the few teams in the league that still value power running, which requires good blocking. All they need out of their TE is 30-35 catches. Mostly their TEs block. I don't think they have had a TE catch more than 40 or so balls since Shockey left. It's just the type of offense they run these days.

But is the getting only 30-35 catches what the Giants only want their TE to get or has that been more because of the talent the Giants have had at TE with Boss and Ballard. It seems to me, since the Giants haven't had a dominating talent at TE to use as a focus of the offense, the TEs have been used as more of a surprise. The Giants run and pass out of the same formations, so the defense can't be certain if the TE is going to block or run a route. That's why they value a guy that can block too, because of the uncertainty a TE like that causes. Seemed like many of Ballard's catches were ones where he slipped out and the defense didn't account for him.

It was hoped that Beckum would become that dual threat blocker and receiver, but his poor blocking and horrid route running put him in the doghouse.

I think you nailed their philsophy. Much more of a role player/3rd or fourth option then a primary receiving threat in their system.

But I think that is because the talent they've had at TE wouldn't be as effective if they tried to involve them more and lost that "element of surprise". I don't see Boss or Ballard consistently beating coverage on athletic ability alone.The offensive scheme is dictated by the player's skills, not the scheme operates the way it does regardless of the player's abilities. Gilbride doesn't operate like Martz, he changes the scheme to his players. Gilbride doesn't try to use Nicks like he used Plaxico.

 

[Chairshot]

The offensive scheme is dictated by the player's skills, not the scheme operates the way it does regardless of the player's abilities. Gilbride doesn't operate like Martz, he changes the scheme to his players. Gilbride doesn't try to use Nicks like he used Plaxico.

While it's true that any good OC is going to tailor the scheme to his players, generally a team goes out and gets players that will fit well in their scheme. I believe the Giants have had TEs that fit their scheme well. I believe they have had good talent at TE - it's just that the talent is at blocking first.Honestly, I can't think of too many TEs that are expert blockers and can also stretch a D like Antonio Gates. Those guys are rare. I'm sure if the Giants could get a guy like that they would be happy to have him. But they want the blocker first and foremost. On a scale of 1-10, how many TEs out there are a 7 or 8 at blocking (which is what the Giants require) and also an 7 or 8 as a receiving threat? Shockey was basically that, as he was a very under rated blocker, but he was such a headache it wasn't worth it to keep him. I really don't see a FA that is that good at both out there now and even if there were he would probably cost big money, which the Giants don't have.The scheme requires a very good blocker as a TE. Receiving skills are a bonus. They will make sure they have a quality blocker in there.

 

[Bri]

Keep in mind that Shiancoe started with the Giants. I'm not sure they want him back or if he left on good terms but there's a connection there.

Shockey too. I can't remember if Shiancoe left on good terms, I seem to remember that he did. I think it was just FA move for him. Shockey less so and I'd be surprised if they went that way.

Shiancoe was an awesome looking young TE that never found the field and never got any better; in fact some believe his play declined while sitting on the Giants sidelines.Nothing about his lockerroom stuff stood out as noteworthy so I don't imagine it's either a good or bad thing to bring him back.Usually teams do not bring players back. It's just easier to move forward. I mean hundreds switch teams every year and maybe a handful return to a former team.Shockey was a pain in the neck when he was still with the Giants. Young Eli wanted him to train and get some time with him and he missed minicamp to go with Edge and others to Miami. Shockey regularly complained about not getting the ball. He was asked to pipe down and did, but it was like it was still there and he was about to explode if he couldn't whine to the press. Shockey was one of the best or most fun rookies that ever played the TE spot. He put his head down and took on LBers in such a direct combative manner it was so entertaining. It fired he and his teammates(and fans) up. Fearing injury, the Gmen got after him to stop doing this. I personally believe this was only a good idea in theory and ruined his career. His personality needed to make those plays and he was eons better when he was fired up. I guess this started his frustration.

 

[Bri]

I'd echo the people who have said they will want a TE that blocks first but has some pass catching ability. Carlson seems like a perfect fit on paper but the Giants can sometimes value players outside the norm.The Giants are one of the few teams in the league that still value power running, which requires good blocking. All they need out of their TE is 30-35 catches. Mostly their TEs block. I don't think they have had a TE catch more than 40 or so balls since Shockey left. It's just the type of offense they run these days.

But is the getting only 30-35 catches what the Giants only want their TE to get or has that been more because of the talent the Giants have had at TE with Boss and Ballard. It seems to me, since the Giants haven't had a dominating talent at TE to use as a focus of the offense, the TEs have been used as more of a surprise. The Giants run and pass out of the same formations, so the defense can't be certain if the TE is going to block or run a route. That's why they value a guy that can block too, because of the uncertainty a TE like that causes. Seemed like many of Ballard's catches were ones where he slipped out and the defense didn't account for him.It was hoped that Beckum would become that dual threat blocker and receiver, but his poor blocking and horrid route running put him in the doghouse.

It also had to do with the RB. Tiki loved to get outside and run wide. For the most part, they're more of an up the middle tough running team now. Tiki's speed and ability to run about anywhere offered them options to do whatever with the TE. While Bradshaw certainly can run outside well, they're also breeding the mentality in their linemen and runners and busting right at the DL now. The Steelers probably had some effective TEs for TDs and key 3rd downs but not so much for FF when Gilbride was there. Kyle Brady was pretty much all Coughlin used while in Jax and outside of a huge year, he never became the elite TE everyone wanted him to.

 

[Bri]

I'd echo the people who have said they will want a TE that blocks first but has some pass catching ability. Carlson seems like a perfect fit on paper but the Giants can sometimes value players outside the norm.The Giants are one of the few teams in the league that still value power running, which requires good blocking. All they need out of their TE is 30-35 catches. Mostly their TEs block. I don't think they have had a TE catch more than 40 or so balls since Shockey left. It's just the type of offense they run these days.

But is the getting only 30-35 catches what the Giants only want their TE to get or has that been more because of the talent the Giants have had at TE with Boss and Ballard. It seems to me, since the Giants haven't had a dominating talent at TE to use as a focus of the offense, the TEs have been used as more of a surprise. The Giants run and pass out of the same formations, so the defense can't be certain if the TE is going to block or run a route. That's why they value a guy that can block too, because of the uncertainty a TE like that causes. Seemed like many of Ballard's catches were ones where he slipped out and the defense didn't account for him.It was hoped that Beckum would become that dual threat blocker and receiver, but his poor blocking and horrid route running put him in the doghouse.

I can't remember the last time the Giants signed a name FA TE, if they ever did. Can you?Anyone that comes to mind was drafted so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they draft a TE.Bavaro is still beloved by that franchise (and many fans) and has been known to work with young TEs in camp. The Gmen are very comfy with drafting TEs.I don't think Beckum or Boss became as good as fans hoped. The Gmen seem to have been realistic and understand it's rare to get a special TE. In the NFL, there's no shame in drafting a reasonably productive TE that starts. In FF, we are jumping to catches, yards, and TDs and ....most every TE pales in comparison to Tony G, Gates etc but I think people are starting to expect greatness rather than appreciate it and accept fine play.

 

[_lurker_]

A bit of a tangent, but...

for those of us in deep dynasty leagues, Winslow was pretty cheap to acquire and put up very good numbers based on his cost. Now that the NYG QB Coach is the TB OC, does Winslow's value go in the toilet once the season starts? Seems like TB may employ a similar offense, so maybe Winslow owners should get value while that's possible?

 

[Couch Potato]

A bit of a tangent, but...for those of us in deep dynasty leagues, Winslow was pretty cheap to acquire and put up very good numbers based on his cost. Now that the NYG QB Coach is the TB OC, does Winslow's value go in the toilet once the season starts? Seems like TB may employ a similar offense, so maybe Winslow owners should get value while that's possible?

I'd be careful about connecting the dots too quickly.First, we don't know that Sullivan wants to employ a similar TE usage to that in NYG. He was QB coach, not OC, so... well, ever work for a company and think "Man, if I ever got my shot to run things, I'd do this and this and this differently"? We don't know what Sullivan will do.Second, until Winslow ceases to be one of TB's top 3 pass catchers, better to assume he'll be used as such than to assume otherwise. Their WR corps isn't all too impressive and ignoring his talents would be a mistake that I doubt Sullivan should be expected to make.If something changes we'll probably hear about it, but I wouldn't be viewing Winslow differently at this time based on this hire.

 

[_lurker_]

A bit of a tangent, but...for those of us in deep dynasty leagues, Winslow was pretty cheap to acquire and put up very good numbers based on his cost. Now that the NYG QB Coach is the TB OC, does Winslow's value go in the toilet once the season starts? Seems like TB may employ a similar offense, so maybe Winslow owners should get value while that's possible?

I'd be careful about connecting the dots too quickly.First, we don't know that Sullivan wants to employ a similar TE usage to that in NYG. He was QB coach, not OC, so... well, ever work for a company and think "Man, if I ever got my shot to run things, I'd do this and this and this differently"? We don't know what Sullivan will do.Second, until Winslow ceases to be one of TB's top 3 pass catchers, better to assume he'll be used as such than to assume otherwise. Their WR corps isn't all too impressive and ignoring his talents would be a mistake that I doubt Sullivan should be expected to make.If something changes we'll probably hear about it, but I wouldn't be viewing Winslow differently at this time based on this hire.

thanks for the feedback!

 

[JohnnyU]

A bit of a tangent, but...for those of us in deep dynasty leagues, Winslow was pretty cheap to acquire and put up very good numbers based on his cost. Now that the NYG QB Coach is the TB OC, does Winslow's value go in the toilet once the season starts? Seems like TB may employ a similar offense, so maybe Winslow owners should get value while that's possible?

I'd be careful about connecting the dots too quickly.First, we don't know that Sullivan wants to employ a similar TE usage to that in NYG. He was QB coach, not OC, so... well, ever work for a company and think "Man, if I ever got my shot to run things, I'd do this and this and this differently"? We don't know what Sullivan will do.Second, until Winslow ceases to be one of TB's top 3 pass catchers, better to assume he'll be used as such than to assume otherwise. Their WR corps isn't all too impressive and ignoring his talents would be a mistake that I doubt Sullivan should be expected to make.If something changes we'll probably hear about it, but I wouldn't be viewing Winslow differently at this time based on this hire.

Isn't Winslow due for a hangnail or something like that?