Just curious about the logic on this. When the Oakland special teams unit did the fake fg for a td why doesn't the Oakland Dec/st unit get credit for the touchdown. Most leagues that I am in they didn't. The special teams unit was on the field when the td was scored so they should get credit for a td right?
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oakland special teams td throw to boss (1 Viewer)
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Frank Black
Footballguy
Excellent question. Are you asking from an NFL or a FF perspective?
FF perspective...most leagues didn't give the Oakland unit that td. Including the fbg contest and other national contests.
dapunisher
Footballguy
This comes up occasionally and the reason is that typically points are designated as Special Teams/Defense. The Raiders were in an offensive set on the FG kick. Maybe that's why D/ST points aren't awarded for made FGs, and kickers don't get points for passing/running TDs.
T J
Footballguy
This is probably right, but we would manually change this in our league to a special teams' TD (if we counted ST that is).
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
there is a thread about this in here already somewhere......
OAK "went for it" on 4th down...doesn't matter who is on the field
OAK "went for it" on 4th down...doesn't matter who is on the field
Pnishthm
Footballguy
THIS is exactly why it should be renamed defense/kick return...it's not really "special teams". Your "special teams" does not get three points when a kicker kicks a FG do they? No, it goes to the kicker. It's the same when a team fakes a FG or a punt...it goes to the player who scores. It's pretty simple logic. ST/DEF can only score on a defensive score or a kick return.
DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
I'm not a rules expert here, but I believe special teams points only come on 'non-down' situations. In this case, it's 4th down and their offense is on the field to either kick a field goal or, in this case, 'go for it'. In neither case would the points count for your special teams.
jasvic
Footballguy
Or to put it another way, possession needs to change on the play. I can't think of any situation where ST/D gets points for a TD where possession doesn't change.
T J
Footballguy
I don't question the technicalities, but a fake field goal, to me, falls under the "common sense" umbrella and does indeed belong as a special teams' play.
Anonymous Internet User
Footballguy
Do regular field goals fall under special teams play?
Joe Summer
Footballguy
The short answer: because it wasn't a "Special Teams" play. "Special Teams" are defined by the NFL as being plays that take place AFTER a ball has been kicked and crosses the line of scrimmage. According to the NFL, this was just a regular offensive play (but with Lechler at QB).
The slightly longer answer: because most Fantasy Football leagues are still kind of stuck on the idea that "fantasy football" rules should mimic "real football" rules. It's easy to get stuck in your ways, do what everybody else does, not think outside the box, etc.
But if you sit down and think about it, doesn't the "Special Teams" unit deserve some kind of credit for the touchdown?
The slightly longer answer: because most Fantasy Football leagues are still kind of stuck on the idea that "fantasy football" rules should mimic "real football" rules. It's easy to get stuck in your ways, do what everybody else does, not think outside the box, etc.
But if you sit down and think about it, doesn't the "Special Teams" unit deserve some kind of credit for the touchdown?
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Onside kick recovered in end zone.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
There is only one way to prevent this type of thing from happening. Play in a IDP league.
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jasvic
Footballguy
Does possession technically change when the ball is kicked or when the receiving team actually grabs the ball?
Joe Summer
Footballguy
I'm not sure.edit: I don't think receiving teams are charged with turnovers when an onside kick is recovered. Seems to me that it means there was no change of possession.%2526%252339%253Bjasvic%2526%252339%253B said:
If a kick is blocked, but recovered by the kicking team for a 1st down, is the receiving team charged with a turnover?
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Crazy Tony
Footballguy
My mom says I'm special. Do I get points for that?
That one dude who said kickers don't get point for TDs...well they should. Change your settings or have commish manually add.
I understand what TJ is saying how the NFL uses the term. Or leagues should change their wording but we can use the wording more accurately too. We're FFL...and the special teams/Defensive category is predominately used w/ Kicker a separate category.
Like someone said. I believe the difference is when there is a change in possession during a play...which occurs when a ball is kicked because it's a live ball...(Kickoffs, punts...FG attempts, not fakes...Hester ran back a missed...) If you recover the ball after10yds on KO it's a fumble recovery of sorts...should be at least. Fumbles and INTs....any time you get the live ball.
I would call the OAK Fake FG unit a special teams unit true...but on that play they acted as an OFFENSIVE unit because they never kicked the ball and maintained possession throughout. The ball never changed possession. Regardless of who is on the field as soon as possession changes it becomes DEF scoring opportunity.
DAL kicker Buehler would score poitns for me in tackles all of the time. WR's would turn into DBs all of the time tackling players. You only get points for that if you play individual IDPs...
Recently (NO Superbowl run year or so) I think it involved Harper and Shockey. Where OFF Fumbled...DEF player took ball downfiled and was stripped of ball...OFF...turned into DEF took ball back and scored. That player got points for it. It was big debate in threads.
So you're only going to get special teams points for that play if OAK looses possession somehow before they score.
That one dude who said kickers don't get point for TDs...well they should. Change your settings or have commish manually add.
I understand what TJ is saying how the NFL uses the term. Or leagues should change their wording but we can use the wording more accurately too. We're FFL...and the special teams/Defensive category is predominately used w/ Kicker a separate category.
Like someone said. I believe the difference is when there is a change in possession during a play...which occurs when a ball is kicked because it's a live ball...(Kickoffs, punts...FG attempts, not fakes...Hester ran back a missed...) If you recover the ball after10yds on KO it's a fumble recovery of sorts...should be at least. Fumbles and INTs....any time you get the live ball.
I would call the OAK Fake FG unit a special teams unit true...but on that play they acted as an OFFENSIVE unit because they never kicked the ball and maintained possession throughout. The ball never changed possession. Regardless of who is on the field as soon as possession changes it becomes DEF scoring opportunity.
DAL kicker Buehler would score poitns for me in tackles all of the time. WR's would turn into DBs all of the time tackling players. You only get points for that if you play individual IDPs...
Recently (NO Superbowl run year or so) I think it involved Harper and Shockey. Where OFF Fumbled...DEF player took ball downfiled and was stripped of ball...OFF...turned into DEF took ball back and scored. That player got points for it. It was big debate in threads.
So you're only going to get special teams points for that play if OAK looses possession somehow before they score.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
It won't show up as a fumble recovery in the official stats.....but in my opinion an onside kick recovery should count as 2 fantasy points for the D/ST.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
this is not a special teams play....it is an offensive play run by the team that happens to include some of the guys that normally don't all play on the regular offensive unit....the language "special teams" is just that....language....it is something we/coaches/announcers/etc think we need to use to describe certian plays/formations.....but any player can be on those "units"...ie hands team which often have many "skill" players...
it its most simple terms....OAK went for it on 4th down.....they made some substitutions and lined up in a formation to try and deceive the other team and make them think they were going to do something else.....substitutions and formations that they could line up in on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down if they choose......with many combinations of players...
I think you are going down a slippery slope if you credit things like this to the DST category....the stats will show Lechler with a TD pass and Boss with a TD rec....there is nothing special about it......just because people that don't normally do it (in this case Lechler) that doesn't make it special.....
foot on ball is really your clue here.....had they lined up like they were going to try a FG and then all of a sudden switched into punt formation and punted the ball, then the receiving team fumbled it and Boss picked it up and ran it into the endzone for a TD THEN the OAK special teams should be credited....
and to answer a couple of other things....receiving team is not in possession until they have control of the ball.....for instance a ball that bounces off a punt returners shoulder pads is not considered possession....it is a (muff) and if the kicking team recovers they cannot advance the ball....kind of like on an onside kick if it just bounces offf the receiving team the kicking team can recover but not advance....if it is fumbled after gaining possession then they can...
another example of a way a kicking team can score without possession changing is a muffed punt or kickoff that is recovered in the end zone......possession is never gained, so it is not a fumble.....muffs are different (insert joke here)...
if your league choses to count things like this....thats fine...go for it....but it is not a D/ST play....it is an offensive play...
it its most simple terms....OAK went for it on 4th down.....they made some substitutions and lined up in a formation to try and deceive the other team and make them think they were going to do something else.....substitutions and formations that they could line up in on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down if they choose......with many combinations of players...
I think you are going down a slippery slope if you credit things like this to the DST category....the stats will show Lechler with a TD pass and Boss with a TD rec....there is nothing special about it......just because people that don't normally do it (in this case Lechler) that doesn't make it special.....
foot on ball is really your clue here.....had they lined up like they were going to try a FG and then all of a sudden switched into punt formation and punted the ball, then the receiving team fumbled it and Boss picked it up and ran it into the endzone for a TD THEN the OAK special teams should be credited....
and to answer a couple of other things....receiving team is not in possession until they have control of the ball.....for instance a ball that bounces off a punt returners shoulder pads is not considered possession....it is a (muff) and if the kicking team recovers they cannot advance the ball....kind of like on an onside kick if it just bounces offf the receiving team the kicking team can recover but not advance....if it is fumbled after gaining possession then they can...
another example of a way a kicking team can score without possession changing is a muffed punt or kickoff that is recovered in the end zone......possession is never gained, so it is not a fumble.....muffs are different (insert joke here)...
if your league choses to count things like this....thats fine...go for it....but it is not a D/ST play....it is an offensive play...
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rocketsauce
Footballguy
The NFL Dictionary is simple on this, as has been stated above.
In my long time fantasy league, we have a section in the rules that spells out that plays like this DO count for your Defense/Special Teams unit, and will have to be manually adjusted by the commissioner after conclusion of the games. I think Fake FGs & Punts for TDs are some of the funnest and rarest plays in the NFL, and just feel like in the spirit of the game of fantasy football, these should count for the Unit you started that week.
I agree with above poster who mentioned Onside Kick Recoveries. Always kind of felt like those should count for your DST as well. Might have to implement that next year if MFL supports it.
In my long time fantasy league, we have a section in the rules that spells out that plays like this DO count for your Defense/Special Teams unit, and will have to be manually adjusted by the commissioner after conclusion of the games. I think Fake FGs & Punts for TDs are some of the funnest and rarest plays in the NFL, and just feel like in the spirit of the game of fantasy football, these should count for the Unit you started that week.
I agree with above poster who mentioned Onside Kick Recoveries. Always kind of felt like those should count for your DST as well. Might have to implement that next year if MFL supports it.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
this will have to be done manually as well as there is a difference between just recovering an onside kick and a "fumble recovery".....the two are not the same.....99% of the time there is never an actual fumble on those plays....
I find it odd that its called an Onside Kick Recovery, when after the ball passes 10 yards anyone can pick it up. It was never 'recovered' from anyone because once it passes 10 yards its a free ball. Unless there was a fumble on the play, who/what is the ball being recovered from?
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Not necessarily. If the kick was blocked behind the line of scrimmage, then it isn't considered a Special Teams play. It's just a regular Offensive/Defensive play.
You are correct that it is considered a "muff". However, it is also considered a fumble for scoring purposes. For example, here is a box score from 2009 in which Tennessee's returner muffed TWO punts. Notice that the box score credits him with 2 fumbles, while the defense is credited with 2 fumble recoveries? 99% of fantasy leagues credited them as "Fumble Recoveries", even though they were muffs.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
you are correct in the first one I left the part out about crossing the line of scrimmage....I didn't look at your links yet.....but I always assumed the NFL treats muffs the same way as high school, etc.....if thats the way they scored it... so be it, but I just wonder if that is the case every time a punt returner muffs the ball............
Pnishthm
Footballguy
Let's ask a third time and see if anyone will step up to the plate and answer this... Do regular FGs count towards special teams points? If Jani had kicked the FG instead of the fake would the Raiders special teams get credit for the 3 pts? The same unit was on the field as when they faked it.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
This is the second time recently that you've claimed a "common sense" position that's neither common nor sensible. You should get that checked out.
kegger
Footballguy
When I first heard about the fake field goal touchdown, I said yah the Def/ST should get those points.But after really thinking about it I said well really it's just another "offensive formation" for a TD pass.And your simple breakdown makes it quite easy to understand, your Def/ST gets no points for a field goal so makes perfect sense they would get nothing for a fake field goal either, your Def/ST is out onthe field for a field goal but they get no points.
T J
Footballguy
I'll be sure to get right on that. Thanks for the suggestion.
Short Corner
Footballguy
It's not a bad tact to take when you can't support your argument.
T J
Footballguy
As I said, I understand all the reasons why it's not considered a special teams play and my take is strictly based on the fantasy footbal aspect.And though I understand my view is not technically accurate, I do look at the personnel on the field at a given time as being what my common sense dictates how I view that play.Another example is when the offense turns it over, the defense (who is now the offense since they posssess the ball), turns the ball back over to the original offense (who is now the defense since they no longer possess the ball) and the ball is returned from there for a TD.TECHNICALLY, that is a defensive TD for the team whose offensive personnel is on the field. My common sense though tells me that for fantasy purposes, a defensive TD should not be awarded.I have no problem being on this side of that argument. You want to turn this into a 6 pager? Bring it. I'd prefer though to just have you accept that I have an opinion rather than be told that my opinion is wrong. You know.... the whole "agree to disagree" thing. Give it a shot.
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identikit
Footballguy
In your example here though, there was a change of possession. Two, actually.Boss' TD came out of an offensive formation, one that certainly was trying to score (via FG or in this case a TD), and not looking to give up the ball/punt in order to change field position.When a field goal is made, the special teams doesn't get the points in any league that I've ever heard of. The player does. Like Boss did.
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Short Corner
Footballguy
Agreeing to disagree is fine, but when you start saying your argument falls under the umbrella of common sense, you are implying that the opposing argument does not. Slight difference there but that should be intuitively obvious.
T J
Footballguy
Fair statement. I'll choose my words more carefully.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Every play from scrimmage is an offensive play. The only thing that makes it special teams is if someone actually attempts to kick or punt the ball.
Short Corner
Footballguy
warpedone
Footballguy
Except that his slightly longer answer is shorter than his short answer.
DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
I think the disconnect is the use of the term 'common sense'. Common sense is basically just the most simple observation of the facts. That's not the way you're viewing this situation. You're experiencing something more like conditioned sense. You think that because you see individuals who generally play on special teams that this makes the play 'special'. That's a conditioned response. It really won't take 6 pages to figure out the difference between the two. No offense (no pun intended) but you're basically Pavlov's dog at this point.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
You're making a pretty bold assumption there. How do you know what he's thinking?I happen to believe that the Boss TD should count toward the Special Teams points, but it has nothing to do with what you stated above.
The Jerk
Footballguy
Regardless of differences of opinion, interpretation and logic, the best way for the scenario described above and others like it to be handled in fantasy football leagues is to have rules that clearly spell out how special teams plays are handled.Directly from the rules in leagues in which I am the Commissioner:
Note that the description in (a) negates the possibility of the original offense scoring a defensive score as one poster mentioned above.Note that the description in (b) negates the possibility of a fake field goal being counted as a special teams score.The very fact that we cannot come to definitive conclusions in this thread points to why very clear and detailed rules (with examples, if necessary) are needed. Agreeing to disagree sounds good, but it's not good after a play happens that is not clearly defined in the league rules.Personally, I am in agreement with the group of posters that have stated that an actual kick of the football is what makes a special teams "special" but I respect that given leagues can choose to implement special teams scores however they see fit -- provided, of course, that the rules clearly spell out what is and is not a special teams score. Frankly, I believe that the rules I quoted above succinctly cover most if not all of the bizarre plays that are seen in a football season.
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I'm not here to argue or choose sides i just thought this is relevant from the NFL Rulebook in regards to when a ball is passed:
Link to NFL Rulebook
I didn't see any reference to special teams. Dont shoot the messanger
Link to NFL Rulebook
Sea Duck
Footballguy
"Special Teams" is not defined in the rulebook. It's only defined by the statkeepers.
DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
1) If you read his post, as opposed to just my response, you would find that he clearly cites personnel as the reasoning behind his common sense. So my 'bold assumption' is actually based on...well...common sense.2) If your belief is not based on personnel, please elaborate why you believe a TD or field goal scored on downs 1 thru 4 should be a specials teams score.
T J
Footballguy
Well... offense taken. And I acknowledged that "common sense" was a poor word choice as I can see how it unfairly dismisses other viewpoints. It sure seems to me that you may be Pavlov's dog here following along like a lemming. I take chances with my thought process and put it out there which I'm pretty sure is the opposite of being trained to offer a conditioned response. I think those that go straight to the NFL Rules book are much more conditioned than I am. Unwilling to embrace anything other than a rigid standard. Fantasy football is NOT the real NFL and doe NOT have to act like it. You can pick and choose where you want to apply the real NFL and where you don't. You bring out the kicker, the holder, etc.. and throw a pass out of a field goal formation, for fantasy purposes, that looks like a special teams play to me. Why do you care what I think - to the extent that you compare me to Pavlov's dog anyway? Get real. I was done with this thread until you felt compelled to chime in on me. For what reason... I have no idea.
