Obama: "I have Israel's back" (1 Viewer)

[Slapdash]

The United States and Israel are great purveyors of international freedom, democracy, and the rule of law.

Only as far as it supports our interests.

 

[ren hoek]

For the record, Israel's treatment of Palestine is one of the most disgusting human rights abuses in my opinion. If you haven't seen Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land, you really owe it to yourself to check it out to see the reality of the dynamics between U.S., Israel and the Middle East.

not sure how you come to that conclusion. its not like Israel is gassing Palestinians and stealing their gold teeth.

Just look at the body counts man. Or failing that, watch the footage in that film of Israel bulldozing Palestinian homes, and replacing them with Jewish-only settlements. Those aren't the actions of a victim state.

We can have peace in the M.E as soon as Iran stops threatening to wipe Israel off the map.

Can I get a link to these quotes about Iran wanting to destroy Israel? Even if that were the case, don't you think Israel is capable of defending itself?

the body counts man....hmmm lets see. maybe 4000 palestinians have died since 1973. bulldozing homes? those aren't the actions of "one of the most disgusting human rights abuses". Maybe you should study up on the blood diamonds, ethnic cleansing in europe in the 90's, christian-muslim conflicts of recent african history, chinese history since 1930, russian history since 1900, and yeah, Germany's eradication of peoples from 1939-1945. as for the quotes about Iran wiping Israel off the map, google is your friend. The most recent pronouncement from Iran was this:

Khamenei reiterated Iran’s threat to wipe Israel — “a cancerous tumor that should be cut and will be cut” — off the map, and averred that Iran will aid any nation or group that attacks Israel.

and this from Iranian Defense Minister Ahmad Vahidi

"Iran's warriors are ready and willing to wipe Israel off the map," he declared.

Why do you assume this means they want to nuke Israel? It sounds more like they don't recognize the state of Israel, not that they want to glass the place. Not saying that's right, but automatically concluding "OMG IRAN IS GOING TO NUKE ISRAEL" seems a bit alarmist. Especially given the fact that Israel has the military strength to crush Iran.

 

[Clifford]

As per your last paragraph: I have no answer to the killing of innocent people. It is immoral. All war is immoral given this very simple but terrible question, because all war involves the murder of thousands of innocent people. Children who watch their mothers blown apart, mothers who see their children torn open- these are the realities of bombing. And it is horrible, horrible, and I won't try to excuse it under any circumstances because that would be horrible too. I wish we could live in a world without warfare. I don't know how to achieve such a world. Given the world that we do live in, I find that on an internet forum I can, theoretically, give you justification for this or that military action. But really there is nothing that can justify any of it. That's the most honest answer I can give you.

So what on earth could be more evil than unleashing war on people when you don't have to?

 

[quickhands]

For the record, Israel's treatment of Palestine is one of the most disgusting human rights abuses in my opinion. If you haven't seen Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land, you really owe it to yourself to check it out to see the reality of the dynamics between U.S., Israel and the Middle East.

not sure how you come to that conclusion. its not like Israel is gassing Palestinians and stealing their gold teeth.

Just look at the body counts man. Or failing that, watch the footage in that film of Israel bulldozing Palestinian homes, and replacing them with Jewish-only settlements. Those aren't the actions of a victim state.

We can have peace in the M.E as soon as Iran stops threatening to wipe Israel off the map.

Can I get a link to these quotes about Iran wanting to destroy Israel? Even if that were the case, don't you think Israel is capable of defending itself?

the body counts man....hmmm lets see. maybe 4000 palestinians have died since 1973. bulldozing homes? those aren't the actions of "one of the most disgusting human rights abuses". Maybe you should study up on the blood diamonds, ethnic cleansing in europe in the 90's, christian-muslim conflicts of recent african history, chinese history since 1930, russian history since 1900, and yeah, Germany's eradication of peoples from 1939-1945. as for the quotes about Iran wiping Israel off the map, google is your friend. The most recent pronouncement from Iran was this:

Khamenei reiterated Iran’s threat to wipe Israel — “a cancerous tumor that should be cut and will be cut” — off the map, and averred that Iran will aid any nation or group that attacks Israel.

and this from Iranian Defense Minister Ahmad Vahidi

"Iran's warriors are ready and willing to wipe Israel off the map," he declared.

Why do you assume this means they want to nuke Israel? It sounds more like they don't recognize the state of Israel, not that they want to glass the place. Not saying that's right, but automatically concluding "OMG IRAN IS GOING TO NUKE ISRAEL" seems a bit alarmist. Especially given the fact that Israel has the military strength to crush Iran.

Are you < 26 yrs old?

 

[The Commish]

I should congratulate you for even agreeing that any of the above described actions are evil. Most progressives I know are extremely reluctant to even use the term these days. That being said, you're wrong. Yes, the United States and Israel do bad things from time to time, but these actions do not define them. The evil actions that Iran takes on a regular basis is part of their intrinsic makeup as an Islamist govenment. Simply put, Islamism, which is defined as the attempt to implement a 6th century stringent religious code of ethics upon a modern day 21st century civilization- is evil. The United States and Israel are great purveyors of international freedom, democracy, and the rule of law. Iran is none of these things.

So if/when Iran does something nice, what do we chalk it up to? A brain fart? This is quite possibly one of the most "head in the sand" comments you've ever made.

 

[cstu]

For the record, Israel's treatment of Palestine is one of the most disgusting human rights abuses in my opinion. If you haven't seen Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land, you really owe it to yourself to check it out to see the reality of the dynamics between U.S., Israel and the Middle East.

not sure how you come to that conclusion. its not like Israel is gassing Palestinians and stealing their gold teeth.

Just look at the body counts man. Or failing that, watch the footage in that film of Israel bulldozing Palestinian homes, and replacing them with Jewish-only settlements. Those aren't the actions of a victim state.

We can have peace in the M.E as soon as Iran stops threatening to wipe Israel off the map.

Can I get a link to these quotes about Iran wanting to destroy Israel? Even if that were the case, don't you think Israel is capable of defending itself?

the body counts man....hmmm lets see. maybe 4000 palestinians have died since 1973. bulldozing homes? those aren't the actions of "one of the most disgusting human rights abuses". Maybe you should study up on the blood diamonds, ethnic cleansing in europe in the 90's, christian-muslim conflicts of recent african history, chinese history since 1930, russian history since 1900, and yeah, Germany's eradication of peoples from 1939-1945. as for the quotes about Iran wiping Israel off the map, google is your friend. The most recent pronouncement from Iran was this:

Khamenei reiterated Iran’s threat to wipe Israel — “a cancerous tumor that should be cut and will be cut” — off the map, and averred that Iran will aid any nation or group that attacks Israel.

and this from Iranian Defense Minister Ahmad Vahidi

"Iran's warriors are ready and willing to wipe Israel off the map," he declared.

Google will also show you that they didn't actually say 'wipe Israel off the map' but 'from the pages of time'.

 

[tommyboy]

Why do you assume this means they want to nuke Israel? It sounds more like they don't recognize the state of Israel, not that they want to glass the place. Not saying that's right, but automatically concluding "OMG IRAN IS GOING TO NUKE ISRAEL" seems a bit alarmist. Especially given the fact that Israel has the military strength to crush Iran.

ren, you're not very good at arguing are you? where did i ever assume they want to nuke Israel? The only one sounding alarms here is you.

 

[Clifford]

Stephen Colbert said it best: Iran is only weeks away from being years away from developing a bomb.

 

[ren hoek]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

 

[timschochet]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

 

[ren hoek]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

That's still not the same as attacking them directly.

 

[pantherclub]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

We give money to Israel and they bulldoze entire communities and displace citizens. ### for tat.we also built up the Taliban

 

[timschochet]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

We give money to Israel and they bulldoze entire communities and displace citizens. ### for tat.

Do you really find this to be the moral equivalent of what I wrote? Never mind, I guess you do.

 

[pantherclub]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

We give money to Israel and they bulldoze entire communities and displace citizens. ### for tat.

Do you really find this to be the moral equivalent of what I wrote? Never mind, I guess you do.

Equivalent, probably not. But its pretty close. I think you are pretty much splitting hairs. How do you defend the US building up a terror organization?

 

[timschochet]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

That's still not the same as attacking them directly.

You're quite correct. And if you had written, "Iran has never directly attacked Israel" I wouldn't have contradicted you, I would have simply commented that your statement was completely irrelevant and ridiculous to consider, but not inaccurate. Unfortunately, like your hero Ron Paul, you feel the need to go beyond the absurd and make false statements as well.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

 

[timschochet]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

We give money to Israel and they bulldoze entire communities and displace citizens. ### for tat.

Do you really find this to be the moral equivalent of what I wrote? Never mind, I guess you do.

Equivalent, probably not. But its pretty close. I think you are pretty much splitting hairs. How do you defend the US building up a terror organization?

I don't. The United States has had some unfortunate episodes in the past to this regard. Not only did we give money to the Taliban, we gave money to Saddam Hussein, to the Contras, to the Salvadorean death squads, to Pinochet. None of it is anything we should be proud of.That being said, it's not splitting hairs. I don't believe we ever gave money to any of those people and told them, "Now, we want you to go commit heinous crimes." If we did, then the government officials who are guilty of this crime ought to be arrested, tried, and sent to prison. Such actions are wrong no matter who do them. Iran publicly gives money to Hamas, publicly urges Hamas to commit acts of terror, and publicly congratulates them upon such acts. For that, the Iranian government deserves to be condemned. Period.

 

[timschochet]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

 

[Clifford]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

If you want to talk about evil any more, you need to take a deep, long look in the mirror. You're talking about being ok with killing people who may or may not have any role whatsoever in attacking Israel. That to me is saying "I am ok in assassinating innocent people if it helps to quell the paranoia of the extreme Israeli right.Whether your extreme bias here allows you to see it or not, the Arab world has very legitimate gripes with Israel, and Israel is largely to blame for the hatred it enjoys.

 

[The Commish]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

Because you can justify it doesn't make it right. Because you have no moral problem with it doesn't make it right. Killing people is bad and unfortunate. It doesn't matter what the excuse is you come up with to make yourself feel better. The reality is humans are killing each other. That you can be ok with that tells me a lot about your value of human life.

 

[pantherclub]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

We give money to Israel and they bulldoze entire communities and displace citizens. ### for tat.

Do you really find this to be the moral equivalent of what I wrote? Never mind, I guess you do.

Equivalent, probably not. But its pretty close. I think you are pretty much splitting hairs. How do you defend the US building up a terror organization?

I don't believe we ever gave money to any of those people and told them, "Now, we want you to go commit heinous crimes."

You are a naive little man tim.

 

[fatkid]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

Because you can justify it doesn't make it right. Because you have no moral problem with it doesn't make it right. Killing people is bad and unfortunate. It doesn't matter what the excuse is you come up with to make yourself feel better. The reality is humans are killing each other. That you can be ok with that tells me a lot about your value of human life.

Israel is targeting strategic targets as part of a program of national defense. Iran (through Hamas and Hezbollah) is targeting random civilians as a program of terrorism. Both of these are bad, but can we agree they are morally different?

 

[fatkid]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

If you want to talk about evil any more, you need to take a deep, long look in the mirror. You're talking about being ok with killing people who may or may not have any role whatsoever in attacking Israel. That to me is saying "I am ok in assassinating innocent people if it helps to quell the paranoia of the extreme Israeli right.Whether your extreme bias here allows you to see it or not, the Arab world has very legitimate gripes with Israel, and Israel is largely to blame for the hatred it enjoys.

Do you think America is safer with Iran having Nuclear weapons? Do you think that Iran having Nuclear weapons is inevitable? Are you opposed to the assassination of Iranian Scientists working on this project?Or is it that the term "evil" sounds arrogent and closed minded?

 

[Clifford]

First of all, I don't believe in assassinating scientists. They will find other scientists. If you want to end Iran's desire for the bomb, this has the opposite effect. As does Israeli and US saber-rattling. Sorry, that's just plain as day.

Do I think they will eventually have the bomb? If we don't change our course (meaning US and to a lesser extent Israel) they will get one eventually. They are not dumb, nor do I believe their leaders are suicidal. They which countries get attacked and which don't. Securing a nuclear bomb is a defensive move for them. Just like the arms race in the Cold War was. I think the thought that Iran gets a bomb and essentially suicide bombs Israel with their entire country is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.

The only way someone could believe that a state would act in this manner would be if someone somehow convinced themselves that all decision makers in that state were either crazy, or evil...

Do I really need to spell this out further?

ETA: Let's talk about the tough talk. To a leader in the Arab world, saying death to Israel is like the right-wing attacking welfare queens. It's political red meat. Every single Arab leader knows that Israel's army dwarfs their army and their neighbors army put together. So I don't believe that when Amoud says wipe them off the map, that he means to do it any more than W meant to pass a gay marriage amendment. So I don't think their bombastic political statements should even be considered when we are talking about military action.

 

[The Commish]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

Because you can justify it doesn't make it right. Because you have no moral problem with it doesn't make it right. Killing people is bad and unfortunate. It doesn't matter what the excuse is you come up with to make yourself feel better. The reality is humans are killing each other. That you can be ok with that tells me a lot about your value of human life.

Israel is targeting strategic targets as part of a program of national defense. Iran (through Hamas and Hezbollah) is targeting random civilians as a program of terrorism. Both of these are bad, but can we agree they are morally different?

They are different but equally bad. I don't have an issue with that, though I'm not sure what this distinction gives you.

 

[timschochet]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

Because you can justify it doesn't make it right. Because you have no moral problem with it doesn't make it right. Killing people is bad and unfortunate. It doesn't matter what the excuse is you come up with to make yourself feel better. The reality is humans are killing each other. That you can be ok with that tells me a lot about your value of human life.

I am not a pacifist, so I don't view all killing as equally bad. That doesn't mean I value human life any less than you do. Ive already made clear in this thread what I think about war.

 

[ren hoek]

Viewing all killing as equally bad doesn't make you a pacifist. That should be at the root of all humanity. I like how you acted all indignant when I said that Iran hasn't attacked Israel, like how dare I not count every last Israeli citizen that's been killed, but mention the hundreds of thousands of dead Muslims that the US and Israel have on their hands and it's like I'm talking to a wall. That line of thinking is part of the problem imo.

 

[Gawain]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

Because you can justify it doesn't make it right. Because you have no moral problem with it doesn't make it right. Killing people is bad and unfortunate. It doesn't matter what the excuse is you come up with to make yourself feel better. The reality is humans are killing each other. That you can be ok with that tells me a lot about your value of human life.

I am not a pacifist, so I don't view all killing as equally bad. That doesn't mean I value human life any less than you do. Ive already made clear in this thread what I think about war.

That's why the US should have absorbed all European Jews, but not the Armenians or the Slavs?

 

[The Commish]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

Because you can justify it doesn't make it right. Because you have no moral problem with it doesn't make it right. Killing people is bad and unfortunate. It doesn't matter what the excuse is you come up with to make yourself feel better. The reality is humans are killing each other. That you can be ok with that tells me a lot about your value of human life.

I am not a pacifist, so I don't view all killing as equally bad. That doesn't mean I value human life any less than you do. Ive already made clear in this thread what I think about war.

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

 

[SofaKings]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

Tim. Mossad has been sticking magnet bombs on Iranian scientists cars and blowing them up. Mossad posed as CIA to recruit Jundallah terrorists into suicide bombing of innocent Iranians. The crazy mullahs/Iran, who are widely hated in that country, believe martyrdom is the highest calling. They see it as a moral way to fight against terrible odds. Mossad/Israel thinks it's a terrible evil but uses it anyway.

I have no moral problem with your first sentence. That is an act of war, and just as it was justifiable for us to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto in 1943, I can justify killing scientists who may contribute to the destruction of Israel. Your second sentence, if true, bothers me greatly. If it's true and there are no mitigating circumstances, I would want to see the people who did this brought to justice. Based on my knowledge of the history of Israel, it would take an awful lot for me to decide that Israel is no longer a good nation (just as it would with America) but this would be a step in that direction. I hope it's not true or that there's more to the story.

I hope you're right that the Mullahs of Iran are widely hated. In any case, I regard the Iranian government as evil, not the people of Iran. I also have no problem with martyrdom as a moral means of fighting against great odds- unless and until it involves the killing of innocents and its primary purpose is to spread terror. At that point it becomes an evil act.

If you want to talk about evil any more, you need to take a deep, long look in the mirror. You're talking about being ok with killing people who may or may not have any role whatsoever in attacking Israel. That to me is saying "I am ok in assassinating innocent people if it helps to quell the paranoia of the extreme Israeli right.Whether your extreme bias here allows you to see it or not, the Arab world has very legitimate gripes with Israel, and Israel is largely to blame for the hatred it enjoys.

Can you explain to me when this "hatred" began?

 

[SofaKings]

I'm sounding alarms? I'm not the one saying we need to use military aggression against another country when they've never even done anything to us or Israel. I'm so fed up with this terrorism garbage.

I simply don't understand how anyone can write this and pretend to be honest. I just don't. Iran gives significant amounts of money to both Hamas and Hezbollah, who send people into Israel, strapped with bombs, who walk into restaurants, shopping centers, schools and hospitals and blow themselves up. The Iranian government is proud of such activity and brags about their involvement. And yet you say they have done nothing to Israel? How dare you?

We give money to Israel and they bulldoze entire communities and displace citizens. ### for tat.

Do you really find this to be the moral equivalent of what I wrote? Never mind, I guess you do.

Equivalent, probably not. But its pretty close. I think you are pretty much splitting hairs. How do you defend the US building up a terror organization?

I don't believe we ever gave money to any of those people and told them, "Now, we want you to go commit heinous crimes."

You are a naive little man tim.

If he is naive, you are WAYYYY on the other end of the spectrum.

 

[timschochet]

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

It is precisely because I put such value on human life that I can declare it's OK for one human to kill another. If I had a gun, and a serial killer was running away from me and there was no way to stop him without killing him, and I knew that if he got away he would likely commit more heinous crimes, I would shoot him dead without any moral compunction whatsoever. In so doing I would save lives. Based on what you have written here you would not shoot him under any circumstances, since you hold that killing him is an equal evil to him killing innocent others. In your refusal to act, you would cost lives. Which of us values human life more?

 

[tommyboy]

First of all, I don't believe in assassinating scientists. They will find other scientists. If you want to end Iran's desire for the bomb, this has the opposite effect. As does Israeli and US saber-rattling. Sorry, that's just plain as day.

Do I think they will eventually have the bomb? If we don't change our course (meaning US and to a lesser extent Israel) they will get one eventually. They are not dumb, nor do I believe their leaders are suicidal. They which countries get attacked and which don't. Securing a nuclear bomb is a defensive move for them. Just like the arms race in the Cold War was. I think the thought that Iran gets a bomb and essentially suicide bombs Israel with their entire country is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.

The only way someone could believe that a state would act in this manner would be if someone somehow convinced themselves that all decision makers in that state were either crazy, or evil...

Do I really need to spell this out further?

ETA: Let's talk about the tough talk. To a leader in the Arab world, saying death to Israel is like the right-wing attacking welfare queens. It's political red meat. Every single Arab leader knows that Israel's army dwarfs their army and their neighbors army put together. So I don't believe that when Amoud says wipe them off the map, that he means to do it any more than W meant to pass a gay marriage amendment. So I don't think their bombastic political statements should even be considered when we are talking about military action.

We didnt believe bin laden when he declared war on us. I dont think you can write off fundamentalist Muslims angry words as bluster especially if they happen to have nukes. Lets hope they dont mean what they say but in tbe meantime lets prepare as though they do.

 

[tommyboy]

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

I have no problem killing the man I caught raping my daughter. I have no problem killing bin laden or zawahiri. Im glad Jeffery dahmer is dead. But I dont thinking killing people in general is good.

 

[RaiderBones]

What does this really mean though?

Well, he pledged once again, publicly, that America is not going to allow Iran to have nuclear weapons. "Not on my watch," he says.

I will believe it when I see it. I don't think Obama has the cojones to stop Iran if push comes to shove.

 

[cstu]

First of all, I don't believe in assassinating scientists. They will find other scientists. If you want to end Iran's desire for the bomb, this has the opposite effect. As does Israeli and US saber-rattling. Sorry, that's just plain as day.

Do I think they will eventually have the bomb? If we don't change our course (meaning US and to a lesser extent Israel) they will get one eventually. They are not dumb, nor do I believe their leaders are suicidal. They which countries get attacked and which don't. Securing a nuclear bomb is a defensive move for them. Just like the arms race in the Cold War was. I think the thought that Iran gets a bomb and essentially suicide bombs Israel with their entire country is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.

The only way someone could believe that a state would act in this manner would be if someone somehow convinced themselves that all decision makers in that state were either crazy, or evil...

Do I really need to spell this out further?

ETA: Let's talk about the tough talk. To a leader in the Arab world, saying death to Israel is like the right-wing attacking welfare queens. It's political red meat. Every single Arab leader knows that Israel's army dwarfs their army and their neighbors army put together. So I don't believe that when Amoud says wipe them off the map, that he means to do it any more than W meant to pass a gay marriage amendment. So I don't think their bombastic political statements should even be considered when we are talking about military action.

We didnt believe bin laden when he declared war on us. I dont think you can write off fundamentalist Muslims angry words as bluster especially if they happen to have nukes. Lets hope they dont mean what they say but in tbe meantime lets prepare as though they do.

We took him seriously after the Kenyan and Tanzania embassy attacks but for various reasons those in charge couldn't agree on the best way to take him out. People like Richard Clarke wanted to bomb the Taliban and a cruise missile attack was approved if OBL could be located.

 

[Daywalker]

Is their another country in the world where our President, Republican or Democrat, has to be in such lock-step with the current leadership of that country?

Not saying we shouldn't be as things currently are. Just that the platform of any other ally is a distant second to our own agenda. Almost like our own opinion is secondary to not disagreeing with Israel's leadership. Just an odd dynamic that our leaders get damaged if they don't defer.

 

[tommyboy]

First of all, I don't believe in assassinating scientists. They will find other scientists. If you want to end Iran's desire for the bomb, this has the opposite effect. As does Israeli and US saber-rattling. Sorry, that's just plain as day.

Do I think they will eventually have the bomb? If we don't change our course (meaning US and to a lesser extent Israel) they will get one eventually. They are not dumb, nor do I believe their leaders are suicidal. They which countries get attacked and which don't. Securing a nuclear bomb is a defensive move for them. Just like the arms race in the Cold War was. I think the thought that Iran gets a bomb and essentially suicide bombs Israel with their entire country is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.

The only way someone could believe that a state would act in this manner would be if someone somehow convinced themselves that all decision makers in that state were either crazy, or evil...

Do I really need to spell this out further?

ETA: Let's talk about the tough talk. To a leader in the Arab world, saying death to Israel is like the right-wing attacking welfare queens. It's political red meat. Every single Arab leader knows that Israel's army dwarfs their army and their neighbors army put together. So I don't believe that when Amoud says wipe them off the map, that he means to do it any more than W meant to pass a gay marriage amendment. So I don't think their bombastic political statements should even be considered when we are talking about military action.

We didnt believe bin laden when he declared war on us. I dont think you can write off fundamentalist Muslims angry words as bluster especially if they happen to have nukes. Lets hope they dont mean what they say but in tbe meantime lets prepare as though they do.

We took him seriously after the Kenyan and Tanzania embassy attacks but for various reasons those in charge couldn't agree on the best way to take him out. People like Richard Clarke wanted to bomb the Taliban and a cruise missile attack was approved if OBL could be located.

Your on the right track. Clark and Tenet wanted to arm a drone and blow up bin ladens camp. They couldnt get the tech done quickly enough so when the time came they decided to launch cruise missiles. Prior to the launch Madeline Albright told the Pakistanis who promptly told bin laden who then escaped unscathed.

 

[The Commish]

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

It is precisely because I put such value on human life that I can declare it's OK for one human to kill another. If I had a gun, and a serial killer was running away from me and there was no way to stop him without killing him, and I knew that if he got away he would likely commit more heinous crimes, I would shoot him dead without any moral compunction whatsoever. In so doing I would save lives. Based on what you have written here you would not shoot him under any circumstances, since you hold that killing him is an equal evil to him killing innocent others. In your refusal to act, you would cost lives. Which of us values human life more?

This is such a load of crap. We'll use your over the top, purposefully slanted example to illustrate my point though because you're clearly not getting it. The difference between you and me in this scenario isn't that one would pull the trigger and one wouldn't. The difference is, I'd pull the trigger and understand I am a murderer. I'd understand that I am probably going to jail for the rest of my life (or death penalty). I'd plead guilty and take my medicine. You'd pull the trigger and think you are some kind of hero and be "shocked" that people couldn't see you were doing "good" for everyone. That's what I'm talking about.

 

[The Commish]

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

I have no problem killing the man I caught raping my daughter. I have no problem killing bin laden or zawahiri. Im glad Jeffery dahmer is dead. But I dont thinking killing people in general is good.

That's fine...you and Tim (and I'm sure a lot of other people) can play in the boat together. I want no part of that

 

[timschochet]

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

It is precisely because I put such value on human life that I can declare it's OK for one human to kill another. If I had a gun, and a serial killer was running away from me and there was no way to stop him without killing him, and I knew that if he got away he would likely commit more heinous crimes, I would shoot him dead without any moral compunction whatsoever. In so doing I would save lives. Based on what you have written here you would not shoot him under any circumstances, since you hold that killing him is an equal evil to him killing innocent others. In your refusal to act, you would cost lives. Which of us values human life more?

This is such a load of crap. We'll use your over the top, purposefully slanted example to illustrate my point though because you're clearly not getting it. The difference between you and me in this scenario isn't that one would pull the trigger and one wouldn't. The difference is, I'd pull the trigger and understand I am a murderer. I'd understand that I am probably going to jail for the rest of my life (or death penalty). I'd plead guilty and take my medicine. You'd pull the trigger and think you are some kind of hero and be "shocked" that people couldn't see you were doing "good" for everyone. That's what I'm talking about.

I'm glad you'd pull the trigger. I don't think you'd go to jail for it. I think you'd be treated as a hero. And you'd deserve it.

 

[The Commish]

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

It is precisely because I put such value on human life that I can declare it's OK for one human to kill another. If I had a gun, and a serial killer was running away from me and there was no way to stop him without killing him, and I knew that if he got away he would likely commit more heinous crimes, I would shoot him dead without any moral compunction whatsoever. In so doing I would save lives. Based on what you have written here you would not shoot him under any circumstances, since you hold that killing him is an equal evil to him killing innocent others. In your refusal to act, you would cost lives. Which of us values human life more?

This is such a load of crap. We'll use your over the top, purposefully slanted example to illustrate my point though because you're clearly not getting it. The difference between you and me in this scenario isn't that one would pull the trigger and one wouldn't. The difference is, I'd pull the trigger and understand I am a murderer. I'd understand that I am probably going to jail for the rest of my life (or death penalty). I'd plead guilty and take my medicine. You'd pull the trigger and think you are some kind of hero and be "shocked" that people couldn't see you were doing "good" for everyone. That's what I'm talking about.

I'm glad you'd pull the trigger. I don't think you'd go to jail for it. I think you'd be treated as a hero. And you'd deserve it.

No....I wouldn't.

 

[Zeff]

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

It is precisely because I put such value on human life that I can declare it's OK for one human to kill another. If I had a gun, and a serial killer was running away from me and there was no way to stop him without killing him, and I knew that if he got away he would likely commit more heinous crimes, I would shoot him dead without any moral compunction whatsoever. In so doing I would save lives. Based on what you have written here you would not shoot him under any circumstances, since you hold that killing him is an equal evil to him killing innocent others. In your refusal to act, you would cost lives. Which of us values human life more?

If that's the way you view the morality of killing, I guess the one of you who values human life more would have to be the one taking the side of a conflict that's been accountable for fewer lost lives.Uh oh...

 

[Clifford]

Viewing all killing as equally bad doesn't make you a pacifist. That should be at the root of all humanity. I like how you acted all indignant when I said that Iran hasn't attacked Israel, like how dare I not count every last Israeli citizen that's been killed, but mention the hundreds of thousands of dead Muslims that the US and Israel have on their hands and it's like I'm talking to a wall. That line of thinking is part of the problem imo.

But as long as we keep calling them evil we don't really have to think about them as human beings.Tim, the point here is that there are two equally viable sides to this story. Therefore your analogy is total crap as it simply demonstrates a clear choice with no real moral ambiguity.You've already said you don't know if Iran is working towards a bomb or not. I've told you (and you are free to read it yourself) that neither American nor Israeli intelligence agencies have any evidence that Iran's program is anything but civil.So the real analogy is you come across someone who your neighbor tells you is a serial killer, but there is absolutely no evidence that he is a serial killer, but he is running away and your neighbor that you know hates this person is putting a gun in your hand, saying "kill him now or he will get away. I know he's a serial killer. Trust me!"Put that in a movie and tell me who the villain is.Sorry, but we've been through this crap before. We're not just ignoring history from 100 years ago, we're ignoring history from 10 years ago.There is no evidence anywhere saying Iran is going to have a bomb by X date. There is no evidence that Iran is even working on getting a bomb. And the people trying to push into another unnecessary war are the exact same cast of characters (minus retirees) that pushed us into Iraq.I mean, how unbelievably stupid are we, both as a government and as a people? We just invaded Iraq, got NOTHING out of it, it cost us billions, and the only country that could be said to have received any actual benefit from it is Israel! And now Israel is trying to get us to do the exact same thing! Ten years later! And Tim is apparently more than willing to go along with this charade like he hasn't seen the exact same charade ten years ago.People, this is nothing more than spring 2003 all over again. Wake the hell up.

 

[Boston]

First of all, I don't believe in assassinating scientists. They will find other scientists. If you want to end Iran's desire for the bomb, this has the opposite effect. As does Israeli and US saber-rattling. Sorry, that's just plain as day.

Do I think they will eventually have the bomb? If we don't change our course (meaning US and to a lesser extent Israel) they will get one eventually. They are not dumb, nor do I believe their leaders are suicidal. They which countries get attacked and which don't. Securing a nuclear bomb is a defensive move for them. Just like the arms race in the Cold War was. I think the thought that Iran gets a bomb and essentially suicide bombs Israel with their entire country is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.

The only way someone could believe that a state would act in this manner would be if someone somehow convinced themselves that all decision makers in that state were either crazy, or evil...

Do I really need to spell this out further?

ETA: Let's talk about the tough talk. To a leader in the Arab world, saying death to Israel is like the right-wing attacking welfare queens. It's political red meat. Every single Arab leader knows that Israel's army dwarfs their army and their neighbors army put together. So I don't believe that when Amoud says wipe them off the map, that he means to do it any more than W meant to pass a gay marriage amendment. So I don't think their bombastic political statements should even be considered when we are talking about military action.

When your relatives were being shoved into an over about 70 years ago you tend to take threats of genocide a little more serious...

 

[Boston]

Charles Krauthammer's take on the Iran situation...

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view/20220309obama_fiddles_as_atomic_clock_ticks/srvc=news&position=also

 

[timschochet]

First of all, I don't believe in assassinating scientists. They will find other scientists. If you want to end Iran's desire for the bomb, this has the opposite effect. As does Israeli and US saber-rattling. Sorry, that's just plain as day.

Do I think they will eventually have the bomb? If we don't change our course (meaning US and to a lesser extent Israel) they will get one eventually. They are not dumb, nor do I believe their leaders are suicidal. They which countries get attacked and which don't. Securing a nuclear bomb is a defensive move for them. Just like the arms race in the Cold War was. I think the thought that Iran gets a bomb and essentially suicide bombs Israel with their entire country is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.

The only way someone could believe that a state would act in this manner would be if someone somehow convinced themselves that all decision makers in that state were either crazy, or evil...

Do I really need to spell this out further?

ETA: Let's talk about the tough talk. To a leader in the Arab world, saying death to Israel is like the right-wing attacking welfare queens. It's political red meat. Every single Arab leader knows that Israel's army dwarfs their army and their neighbors army put together. So I don't believe that when Amoud says wipe them off the map, that he means to do it any more than W meant to pass a gay marriage amendment. So I don't think their bombastic political statements should even be considered when we are talking about military action.

When your relatives were being shoved into an over about 70 years ago you tend to take threats of genocide a little more serious...

You know what? Don't do this. My relatives WERE killed, and I don't ever play this card. If I'm unable to use reason and fact to justify my point, then my point's not worth making.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, the point here is that there are two equally viable sides to this story. Therefore your analogy is total crap as it simply demonstrates a clear choice with no real moral ambiguity.

You've already said you don't know if Iran is working towards a bomb or not. I've told you (and you are free to read it yourself) that neither American nor Israeli intelligence agencies have any evidence that Iran's program is anything but civil.

So the real analogy is you come across someone who your neighbor tells you is a serial killer, but there is absolutely no evidence that he is a serial killer, but he is running away and your neighbor that you know hates this person is putting a gun in your hand, saying "kill him now or he will get away. I know he's a serial killer. Trust me!"

Put that in a movie and tell me who the villain is.

Sorry, but we've been through this crap before. We're not just ignoring history from 100 years ago, we're ignoring history from 10 years ago.

There is no evidence anywhere saying Iran is going to have a bomb by X date. There is no evidence that Iran is even working on getting a bomb. And the people trying to push into another unnecessary war are the exact same cast of characters (minus retirees) that pushed us into Iraq.

I mean, how unbelievably stupid are we, both as a government and as a people? We just invaded Iraq, got NOTHING out of it, it cost us billions, and the only country that could be said to have received any actual benefit from it is Israel! And now Israel is trying to get us to do the exact same thing! Ten years later! And Tim is apparently more than willing to go along with this charade like he hasn't seen the exact same charade ten years ago.

People, this is nothing more than spring 2003 all over again. Wake the hell up.

My analogy was not supposed to be with regard to Iran. It was in answer to an ethical argument that the Commish was raising regarding the valuation of human life. He and I profoundly disagree on how one measures that issue, and the analogy was designed to highlight that disagreement, nothing more. With regard to your comments, I don't really disagree with you too much. As I've written here several times, I am not willing at this point to take action against Iran over this issue, for the reasons you state- there is no compelling evidence. We probably disagree in that I, like President Obama, wouldn't rule out the use of force in the future if it made sense to do so.

And by the way, I was very opposed to the Iraq war and I remain convinced that I was right about that. But the analogy is a weak one. A better analogy would be Israel's bombing of Iraq in 1982.

 

[Boston]

First of all, I don't believe in assassinating scientists. They will find other scientists. If you want to end Iran's desire for the bomb, this has the opposite effect. As does Israeli and US saber-rattling. Sorry, that's just plain as day.

Do I think they will eventually have the bomb? If we don't change our course (meaning US and to a lesser extent Israel) they will get one eventually. They are not dumb, nor do I believe their leaders are suicidal. They which countries get attacked and which don't. Securing a nuclear bomb is a defensive move for them. Just like the arms race in the Cold War was. I think the thought that Iran gets a bomb and essentially suicide bombs Israel with their entire country is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.

The only way someone could believe that a state would act in this manner would be if someone somehow convinced themselves that all decision makers in that state were either crazy, or evil...

Do I really need to spell this out further?

ETA: Let's talk about the tough talk. To a leader in the Arab world, saying death to Israel is like the right-wing attacking welfare queens. It's political red meat. Every single Arab leader knows that Israel's army dwarfs their army and their neighbors army put together. So I don't believe that when Amoud says wipe them off the map, that he means to do it any more than W meant to pass a gay marriage amendment. So I don't think their bombastic political statements should even be considered when we are talking about military action.

When your relatives were being shoved into an over about 70 years ago you tend to take threats of genocide a little more serious...

You know what? Don't do this. My relatives WERE killed, and I don't ever play this card. If I'm unable to use reason and fact to justify my point, then my point's not worth making.

Sorry but you can not discuss this topic without going there...this has zero to do with playing a card...in historical terms the Holocaust was a very short-time ago and to think Israel is still not influenced by this atrocity is not being realistic...when another country threatens Israel with genocide (and this is fact) they must take it seriously or they are ignoring what occured 70 years ago....

 

[The Commish]

If you can justify one life over another and cases where it's "ok" for a human to kill another human, then you absolutely put less value on life than I do and it's not close.

It is precisely because I put such value on human life that I can declare it's OK for one human to kill another. If I had a gun, and a serial killer was running away from me and there was no way to stop him without killing him, and I knew that if he got away he would likely commit more heinous crimes, I would shoot him dead without any moral compunction whatsoever. In so doing I would save lives. Based on what you have written here you would not shoot him under any circumstances, since you hold that killing him is an equal evil to him killing innocent others. In your refusal to act, you would cost lives. Which of us values human life more?

If that's the way you view the morality of killing, I guess the one of you who values human life more would have to be the one taking the side of a conflict that's been accountable for fewer lost lives.Uh oh...

meh...it's a scenario he came up with that has nothing to do with the discussion. Guessing it was an attempt at an "ah ha" moment, but it drastically missed the mark.