OCMD or Virginia Beach, VA...where to stay? (1 Viewer)

[Polish Hammer]

We are trying to plan a family vacation for late July or early August. Originally we had looked at the Outer Banks/Duck and sharing a house with my brother's family but he had to back out. Based on our kids' ages (will be 5 and 7) we sort of think going there without another family may not be as fun for the kids. They enjoy playing with other kids but without that they'd want things like mini golf, rides, activities, etc...and the impression I've gotten is that OB doesn't have as much of that.

Since then we've switched our aim to something of a shorter drive and looked at OCMD and VA Beach. I'm hoping some of you all may be able to help point me in the right direction on a few things.

1. Any big watch-outs on either location for a family trip?

2. Rather than condos, we prefer to rent a house if possible. Are either of the locations more abundant with them? I've done a few brief searches and it seems to be condo-heavy.

3. Any sub-areas/neighborhoods (for lack of a better word) to exploit/avoid?

4. Any other beach areas with reasonable proximity to the Philly area we should be looking at? Most of the Jersey Shore points are probably out as my folks have a house at LBI I can use when needed and much of the rest of the state coastline is overpriced.

 

[Thunderlips]

The DE beaches are pretty nice. Rehoboth, despite it's attraction as a "gay" beach is very family friendly. Both the family and gay "entities" mutually co-exist. IMO, this is part of the reason you don't get the same 18-25 year old jabronis that you'd find in OCMD.

Rehoboth only has one amusement park; Funland....which is nice for kids but not a lot of rides.....although IIRC, there are a few places on Route 1 a mile or two from Rehoboth. The beaches have lifeguards....but are a bit restrictive in regards to bogeyboards and stuff like that. Bethany Beach and Fenwick are also pretty nice.....although not as close to "attractions".

 

[McGarnicle]

My choice would be VA Beach. My wife and I spent 5 days at an oceanfront hotel there about 4 years ago and had a blast. I enjoy walking and they have a really long boardwalk, the beaches are clean and the food/entertainment options are pretty extensive. If you're determined to rent a beach house, I'd look at the areas north of OC and into DE as Thunderlips mentioned. VA Beach is all about hotels, from what I remember. They do have some nice residential neighborhoods starting a block or two inland. Not sure what the selection of rentals is.

 

[renesauz]

OBX for little kids might be painful for both of you.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Kids - Rehoboth

No kids - OC or Va Beach

 

[Novice2]

My choice would be VA Beach. My wife and I spent 5 days at an oceanfront hotel there about 4 years ago and had a blast. I enjoy walking and they have a really long boardwalk, the beaches are clean and the food/entertainment options are pretty extensive. If you're determined to rent a beach house, I'd look at the areas north of OC and into DE as Thunderlips mentioned. VA Beach is all about hotels, from what I remember. They do have some nice residential neighborhoods starting a block or two inland. Not sure what the selection of rentals is.

you are right about mostly hotels in VA beach but they do have a strip of homes along the beach but it is further up from the shopping restaurants. I've always enjoyed VA beach. Haven't been to the outer banks but did make it to Kure beach in NC which is mostly homes. ( not sure if there is a lot for kids to do there though )

 

[GoBirds]

VB does have some rentals on the north end but the Hilton on 31st is the nicest hotel and walking distance to new upscale Commercial tht is being built.

Also some decent spots to eat if you stay by the bay.

 

[Koya]

Can't speak for VA Beach but have spent many summer in OC and Rehobeth.

OC is a bit too commercial, repetitive and low brow / white trashy for me. And my dad owns a condo there so I wish I could say otherwise. That said, if you rent a house a block from the beach and boardwalk down by the pier there's a ton of stuff to do. Mini golf, amusement park, just boardwalk games and all.

That said, rehobeth offers all that on a smaller scale and more of a neighborhood feel. Think more boutiques and less neon. I'm a huge rehobeth fan though either would work for kids if it's a kids oriented trip - I just prefer the more intimate and walkable nature of rehobeth - less drunk college kids and youngs 20s as well

 

[The_Man]

I echo what people are saying about Rehoboth -- and would add you might consider Lewes as a cheaper alternative to Rehoboth. You can still get to Funland and the Rehoboth Boardwalk in 10 minutes, plus Jungle Jim's water park and the Midway mini-golf and go-carts are even closer than that, but it's cheaper and there's a really charming downtown. Also, it's on the Delaware Bay rather than the Atlantic, so you can let kids the age of yours play in the water by themselves and not worry about them being smashed by waves.

 

[Swing 51]

Rehoboth also has the outlet stores for shopping.

 

[Koya]

Rehoboth also has the outlet stores for shopping.

And the Dogfish Head brewery / brewpub restaurant. Definitely a good lunch or casual dinner spot with the kids (it's more restaurant than anything) while the adults can enjoy some very fine brews.

 

[HughHoney]

OCMD can be chaotic. Every block is packed with stores, hotels and anything else they can fit. Insane amount of things for the kids to do. Kids will love it.

No problem neighborhoods or places to avoid.

You're looking for a condo check Fenwick island. I stayed there as a teen with the family and the place we had was insanely nice. Fenwick island is basically OCMD. Once the streets in OC end, think it's 145 street, it turns into Fenwick island. You'd be away from all the chaos of OC but close enough to take the kids to the boardwalk and amusement park a few nights.

 

[Koya]

FYI, either roboneth or OC have a number of house rental options including locations close to the beach and kids activities. Shoot me a pm and I can probably get some names for you.

Personally, a house that is only a block or two from the beach, ideally the boardwalk/active part of the beach would be best because you wouldn't need a car for much of your time there. And there should be options.

 

[Polish Hammer]

FYI, either roboneth or OC have a number of house rental options including locations close to the beach and kids activities. Shoot me a pm and I can probably get some names for you.

Personally, a house that is only a block or two from the beach, ideally the boardwalk/active part of the beach would be best because you wouldn't need a car for much of your time there. And there should be options.

The member Koya cannot receive any new messages

 

[Tau837]

I live about a mile from the Virginia Beach Hilton mentioned upthread. It is a very nice hotel. Because I live here, I am not very familiar with the rental market, but my impression is that it the boardwalk area is hotel-centric. I don't have kids but will help with any questions if I can.

Also, my family has been renting houses in the Outer Banks for summer vacations for the past 25+ years (Kitty Hawk and Nags Head). I agree there is less to do, but we have always enjoyed it a lot.

 

[McGarnicle]

I believe the Hilton is were we stayed. There's nothing like waking up, throwing the blinds open and seeing nothing but ocean. Then you look down and there are maybe 3 people on the beach. We went right after Labor Day to avoid the swarms of rugrats. The weather was perfect and the water nice and warm. I recall dozing off on the beach with the late afternoon sun on my back, more relaxed than I'd felt in years.

OC is not comparable at all to VA Beach IMO. It's like Gatlinburg by the sea. Overdeveloped and trashy, overrun with redneck idiots, crazy traffic during peak season, beaches jam packed.

Our favorite beaches for a day trip when we lived in DE and MD were Cape Henlopen and Delaware Seashore State Park. At Henlopen we'd hike the 2 or 3 miles of trails in the morning, then grab our stuff at the car and spend the day at the beach. Very cool spot with some WWII barracks and gun towers, and scenic trails.

 

[James Daulton]

It really sounds like Rehoboth has what you're looking for. Plenty of houses to rent (not many on the beach, but many within easy walking distance), a fairly contained commerical strip with all the typical beach stuff, and a decent boardwalk with some smallish rides. As a bonus, there are a lot of good non-chain restaurants and micro-breweries within walking distance.

Rehoboth is a very nice family destination.

 

[The_Man]

OC is not comparable at all to VA Beach IMO. It's like Gatlinburg by the sea. Overdeveloped and trashy, overrun with redneck idiots, crazy traffic during peak season, beaches jam packed.

Our favorite beaches for a day trip when we lived in DE and MD were Cape Henlopen and Delaware Seashore State Park. At Henlopen we'd hike the 2 or 3 miles of trails in the morning, then grab our stuff at the car and spend the day at the beach. Very cool spot with some WWII barracks and gun towers, and scenic trails.

Nice description. It's really not anywhere you want to be, once you're older than 25. I'll make one more plug for Lewes here - it's the town where Cape Henlopen Park is - it's nice, less expensive, and yet close to Rehoboth.

 

[Polish Hammer]

Based on the commentary, I'm starting to lean toward the DE beaches. Also heard that if we want to do a day or evening (or two) in OCMD for the kids it isn't too far away...about 35-40 minute drive. Is that about right?

 

[Bigboy10182000]

We went with a couple families and stayed in Sandbridge a few times. I would recommend that to anyone. There's a beach there as well thats not crowded and depending on where you stay could be less then a block away. It was also close enough to drive into VA beach. As far as VA Beach itself I didnt recognize a lot of stuf for kids to do but it depends on what you guys are into.

Would Busch Gardens be an option on this trip? We've gone there quite a few times and I think your kids would love something like that. We got a 3-day pass (dont think they have them anymore) and went to the park one day (didnt see it all) the water park the next and then back to the park again the following day. There's a ton to do there.

 

[James Daulton]

Based on the commentary, I'm starting to lean toward the DE beaches. Also heard that if we want to do a day or evening (or two) in OCMD for the kids it isn't too far away...about 35-40 minute drive. Is that about right?

Lewes is nice, but getting into Rehoboth is a nightmare due to traffic. OCMD is about 35-40 minutes away, easy drive. Other than driving to OC for bigger rides/boardwalk, you really don't want to drive on Rt 1 outside Rehoboth, traffic is terrible. Once you're in Rehoboth, park your car and leave it.

 

[(HULK)]

I'm very familiar with all of the beaches. I agree strongly that Rehobeth is your best bet. Also will say that Sandbridge is awesome, but not a ton to do, it works best as a group vacation like the one you originally were planning.

Here are my quick thoughts, North to South:

Lewes: Bay beach is great if your kids are small. Townish feel, but can get to Rehobeth fast

Rehobeth: Lots to do for kids on their boardwalk. Great atmosphere.

Dewey Beach: Great for adults who like to get drunk.

Bethany Beach: Good family beach. Less to do. Sea Colony is enormous and dominates it imo. Easy to get up to Rehobeth from here.

Fenewick Island: Great public beach with parking and clean restrooms. Can stay drive in and have a great day.

North OC: Lots of stuff. Beaches a little less crowded. Not as classy as Deleware beaches though.

South OC: Boardwalk and a million activities. Crowd is not my scene. You'll see confederate flags imo. More hotels so beaches crowded too.

Asateague Island: Camping on the beach. Literally nothing to do but look at horses and swat flys. But its oh so peaceful.

Virginia Beach: I've actually never stayed here. I hear its crowded and busy and annoying. But I don't know for certain.

Sandbridge: Great beach. Just 4 rows of homes deep, so the beach is plenty spacious. Very little to do though, and you have to drive around the naval base to get to the activites in VA Beach.

Outer banks are awesome by the way. There is still stuff to do, but you'll be driving up and down the island to do them. Going to Corolla with the kids at the end of May, and went last year. You can find go carts, minigolf, dolphin boat rides, etc here, its just spaced out more.

 

[(HULK)]

Polish Hammer, on 17 Apr 2013 - 10:39, said:Based on the commentary, I'm starting to lean toward the DE beaches. Also heard that if we want to do a day or evening (or two) in OCMD for the kids it isn't too far away...about 35-40 minute drive. Is that about right?

If you're staying in Deleware, you really won't need to go down to OC unless your kids want to ride the super unsafe Boardwalk rollercoaster. There are gocarts and Viking golf right at the Del/MD line in Fenwick.No sales tax in Delaware too.

 

[(HULK)]

Whats your price range for rent?<br /><br />I usually plan these trips in the "shoulder" season. Either end of May (if going down to NC) or start of Sept (if going to MD/Del). Prices are usually less than half of what you pay in July. If you're comfortable with your kids missing a week of school its the way to go.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

I'm very familiar with all of the beaches. I agree strongly that Rehobeth is your best bet. Also will say that Sandbridge is awesome, but not a ton to do, it works best as a group vacation like the one you originally were planning.Here are my quick thoughts, North to South:Lewes: Bay beach is great if your kids are small. Townish feel, but can get to Rehobeth fastRehobeth: Lots to do for kids on their boardwalk. Great atmosphere.Dewey Beach: Great for adults who like to get drunk.Bethany Beach: Good family beach. Less to do. Sea Colony is enormous and dominates it imo. Easy to get up to Rehobeth from here.Fenewick Island: Great public beach with parking and clean restrooms. Can stay drive in and have a great day.North OC: Lots of stuff. Beaches a little less crowded. Not as classy as Deleware beaches though.South OC: Boardwalk and a million activities. Crowd is not my scene. You'll see confederate flags imo. More hotels so beaches crowded too.Asateague Island: Camping on the beach. Literally nothing to do but look at horses and swat flys. But its oh so peaceful.Virginia Beach: I've actually never stayed here. I hear its crowded and busy and annoying. But I don't know for certain.Sandbridge: Great beach. Just 4 rows of homes deep, so the beach is plenty spacious. Very little to do though, and you have to drive around the naval base to get to the activites in VA Beach.Outer banks are awesome by the way. There is still stuff to do, but you'll be driving up and down the island to do them. Going to Corolla with the kids at the end of May, and went last year. You can find go carts, minigolf, dolphin boat rides, etc here, its just spaced out more.

The naval base was alo pretty cool--the kids liked to see all the jets amnd stuff flying around

 

[(HULK)]

If I was to plan a family reunion at a beach, Sandbridge would be my top choice. Excellent beach for it.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

If I was to plan a family reunion at a beach, Sandbridge would be my top choice. Excellent beach for it.

The first year we went we were shocked at how nice it was, close to the water and there werent many people on the beach at all. We spent quite a bit of time there.

 

[James Daulton]

One other point, if it matters, the ocean water temp in Deleware will only gets like 70 - 72 highest. I know the outer banks a decent amount warmer than that, not sure about VA, but I'd guess it'd be a couple of degrees warmer. On hot days, I really enjoy the water, but for some people that's too cold.

 

[E-Z Glider]

Ditto on the DE beaches. My favorite thing about them is that you can fish on the beach. Toss a big chunk of bait out there on a huge hook, grab a beer, and wait for all hell to break loose when you hook into a big ole shark or ray.

OCMD is horrible. Dont drive down there because you're kids will want to go back and you wont.

 

[SwampDawg]

We've done them all and our kids are in the same area age wise, 6 and 9. Only been to Va. Beach once and that was without kids, nice beach, all most all hotels and didn't seem like a lot of kid type things to do other then the beach.

Stayed in OC when the kids were real little because it was a closer drive from PA, some real nice condos like a block off the beach and lot's of stuff you can do by walking. Went back last year for the first time in a few years and had a good time. My 9 year old, then 8, enjoyed it more as he loves to always be going and doing something be it the go karts, parasailing, mini golf, just walking to get ice cream. we are going back this year because freinds of ours and their kids who are a few years older are going and the rest of my family that usually goes wasn't available for a family trip.

OBX is awesome to just relax and you can't beat the value on the house you get for the dollars you spend. We did the previous 2 years to last year in South Nags Head with my mom, my sister and BIL and my brother and his girlfriend. Beaches and water are awesome and my younger one actually likes it better because about mid afternoon he was tired of the beach and loved coming back to the house and playing in the pool all afternoon or being able to go out for bike rides on the bike trails as a family. Value for your dollar OBX is the best and nicest, but you have a longer drive and to go do anything you need to drive at least 10 minutes. There is plenty to do however, the NC aquarium, Jockey's Ridge, Grave Digger garage and ride (awesome if your kids are into monster trucks), it's just you need to plan a little.

DE Beaches, have friends that have a place there and have spent weekends there, nice beaches and as others said very family friendly. Houses available but for what you pay compared to what you get for the same price in OBX it isn't close that's the main reason we haven't went for a family trip there. Plus I know we would still end up running down to OC at least 3 or 4 times because of some of the resturants and other attractions we like down there.

To me OBX is my first choice given the price and what I think is the nicest area, the down fall is the longer ride, we always left around 3pm going down and stayed just north of the bay bridge/tunnel then got in early on checkin day before the rush which made it nicer. OC vs the DE Beaches comes down to if you want to be closer to and able to walk to a bunch of stuff but deal with more of a crowd or if you want the less populated (but still way more crowded then OBX) area.

All three can be fun....enjoy.

 

[Polish Hammer]

Found a place owned by a friend/coworker in Rehoboth that we may take advantage of. Right on Rehoboth Ave, 0.9 miles from the beach. 4 bedrooms, newer construction (2005), nicely decorated, off street parking. $2000 for a week in mid-July, about $900 off of the going rate for other renters. Any reason not to take that offer?

 

[James Daulton]

Found a place owned by a friend/coworker in Rehoboth that we may take advantage of. Right on Rehoboth Ave, 0.9 miles from the beach. 4 bedrooms, newer construction (2005), nicely decorated, off street parking. $2000 for a week in mid-July, about $900 off of the going rate for other renters. Any reason not to take that offer?

Sounds excellent except for having to drive to the beach. Not really a huge deal since you can typially find parking on one of the side streets.

 

[Polish Hammer]

Also, how crowded are the beaches at Rehoboth? Wife "saw something online" that they are really crowded if you don't go down early to secure a spot.

 

[Polish Hammer]

Found a place owned by a friend/coworker in Rehoboth that we may take advantage of. Right on Rehoboth Ave, 0.9 miles from the beach. 4 bedrooms, newer construction (2005), nicely decorated, off street parking. $2000 for a week in mid-July, about $900 off of the going rate for other renters. Any reason not to take that offer?

Sounds excellent except for having to drive to the beach. Not really a huge deal since you can typially find parking on one of the side streets.

Home owner said she has Rehoboth Beach parking passes that are supposed to make this easier. Does that make sense? Are there designated lots for that sort of thing?

 

[The_Man]

Found a place owned by a friend/coworker in Rehoboth that we may take advantage of. Right on Rehoboth Ave, 0.9 miles from the beach. 4 bedrooms, newer construction (2005), nicely decorated, off street parking. $2000 for a week in mid-July, about $900 off of the going rate for other renters. Any reason not to take that offer?

Literally on Rehoboth Ave., 0.9 miles from the beach? Well, say hello to Dogfish Head because you're going to be right about next door to their brew pub. And I love the happy hour at a place called Fins, right across the street.

Price sounds very good. My only concern would be that Rehoboth Ave. is the main thoroughfare in and out of Rehoboth, so you would be subject to a never-ending traffic jam in the front yard. If you can get the address, do a Google Map street view and see how it looks. But there's no question you'd have ready access to lots of stuff, both on the boardwalk and out at Jungle Jim's water park, mini-golf, and go kart emporium.

You're also going to be close to the Double L bar - the only leather and bear bar in Delaware. I went there last year to see a Bob Mould concert - that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

 

[Polish Hammer]

Found a place owned by a friend/coworker in Rehoboth that we may take advantage of. Right on Rehoboth Ave, 0.9 miles from the beach. 4 bedrooms, newer construction (2005), nicely decorated, off street parking. $2000 for a week in mid-July, about $900 off of the going rate for other renters. Any reason not to take that offer?

Literally on Rehoboth Ave., 0.9 miles from the beach? Well, say hello to Dogfish Head because you're going to be right about next door to their brew pub. And I love the happy hour at a place called Fins, right across the street. Price sounds very good. My only concern would be that Rehoboth Ave. is the main thoroughfare in and out of Rehoboth, so you would be subject to a never-ending traffic jam in the front yard. If you can get the address, do a Google Map street view and see how it looks. But there's no question you'd have ready access to lots of stuff, both on the boardwalk and out at Jungle Jim's water park, mini-golf, and go kart emporium. You're also going to be close to the Double L bar - the only leather and bear bar in Delaware. I went there last year to see a Bob Mould concert - that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

Yes, according to Google Maps 0.9 miles. Looks to be right over some bridge and near a big traffic circle. According again to GMaps, about .2 miles from Dogfish Head Brewing and Eats...which is a major plus for me. Also it would appear that this is not "on the road" but in a small development/community called "Cottages By The Sea" if that means anything to you. Any input on the beaches/parking questions from above?

 

[Thunderlips]

Found a place owned by a friend/coworker in Rehoboth that we may take advantage of. Right on Rehoboth Ave, 0.9 miles from the beach. 4 bedrooms, newer construction (2005), nicely decorated, off street parking. $2000 for a week in mid-July, about $900 off of the going rate for other renters. Any reason not to take that offer?

Literally on Rehoboth Ave., 0.9 miles from the beach? Well, say hello to Dogfish Head because you're going to be right about next door to their brew pub. And I love the happy hour at a place called Fins, right across the street. Price sounds very good. My only concern would be that Rehoboth Ave. is the main thoroughfare in and out of Rehoboth, so you would be subject to a never-ending traffic jam in the front yard. If you can get the address, do a Google Map street view and see how it looks. But there's no question you'd have ready access to lots of stuff, both on the boardwalk and out at Jungle Jim's water park, mini-golf, and go kart emporium. You're also going to be close to the Double L bar - the only leather and bear bar in Delaware. I went there last year to see a Bob Mould concert - that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

Yes, according to Google Maps 0.9 miles. Looks to be right over some bridge and near a big traffic circle. According again to GMaps, about .2 miles from Dogfish Head Brewing and Eats...which is a major plus for me. Also it would appear that this is not "on the road" but in a small development/community called "Cottages By The Sea" if that means anything to you. Any input on the beaches/parking questions from above?

Let me ask my Rehoboth Guy.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Also, how crowded are the beaches at Rehoboth? Wife "saw something online" that they are really crowded if you don't go down early to secure a spot.

What she saw is correct. Also as someone else pointed out the traffic down to the beach is AWFUL.

But if you do make it down try the Green Turtle.

 

[collective]

I would stay in Bethany Beach before staying in Rehoboth. Not as crowded.

 

[James Daulton]

Found a place owned by a friend/coworker in Rehoboth that we may take advantage of. Right on Rehoboth Ave, 0.9 miles from the beach. 4 bedrooms, newer construction (2005), nicely decorated, off street parking. $2000 for a week in mid-July, about $900 off of the going rate for other renters. Any reason not to take that offer?

Literally on Rehoboth Ave., 0.9 miles from the beach? Well, say hello to Dogfish Head because you're going to be right about next door to their brew pub. And I love the happy hour at a place called Fins, right across the street. Price sounds very good. My only concern would be that Rehoboth Ave. is the main thoroughfare in and out of Rehoboth, so you would be subject to a never-ending traffic jam in the front yard. If you can get the address, do a Google Map street view and see how it looks. But there's no question you'd have ready access to lots of stuff, both on the boardwalk and out at Jungle Jim's water park, mini-golf, and go kart emporium. You're also going to be close to the Double L bar - the only leather and bear bar in Delaware. I went there last year to see a Bob Mould concert - that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

Yes, according to Google Maps 0.9 miles. Looks to be right over some bridge and near a big traffic circle. According again to GMaps, about .2 miles from Dogfish Head Brewing and Eats...which is a major plus for me. Also it would appear that this is not "on the road" but in a small development/community called "Cottages By The Sea" if that means anything to you. Any input on the beaches/parking questions from above?

I believe that if you have a pass, you can park much easier, don't have to find a meter. Yes beaches get crowded right in front of the boards, but if you stay either lower or higher than the boardwalk, it's not too bad.

 

[The_Man]

Yes, according to Google Maps 0.9 miles. Looks to be right over some bridge and near a big traffic circle. According again to GMaps, about .2 miles from Dogfish Head Brewing and Eats...which is a major plus for me. Also it would appear that this is not "on the road" but in a small development/community called "Cottages By The Sea" if that means anything to you. Any input on the beaches/parking questions from above?

Cottages by the Sea are actually closer to the beach than the circle. It's just a few doors down from Dogfish. They're nice townhouses, wedged into a lot bounded by Rehoboth Ave and 6th Street. That's a good price but you will not be having a "beach" experience there. To get to the beach, you'll have to traverse almost a mile of blacktop - they're in downtown Rehoboth which is a very congested tourist area of cars, stores, and restaurants.

Your section of the beach, since it's right at the boardwalk, will be packed. You will have to stake out a spot early and will then be surrounded. Think about going to a crowded outdoor concert where people put their blanket right next to yours - that's what the beach is like there by midday. You might not be able to watch the kids from your blanket/chair - there will just be too many people between you and the water.

If you want the hustle and bustle of being in a fun and charming - but very busy - seaside tourist town, then this will be perfect. But if you want to have some chill time just relaxing at the beach, where you can place your stuff in the morning, go home for lunch and a nap, and then come back down to hang out more later, it won't be like that. Just up to you as to what you're looking for.

 

[BigJohn]

for later