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***Official 2018 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread*** Back to being the Bucs (2 Viewers)

This is part of an essay I'm working on because I was intrigued by Archer vs the AL East compared to other MLB teams:

Chris Archer started his MLB career in 2012 with the Tampa Bay Rays. In the seasons that followed through 2015, he compiled an impressive 3.33 ERA in over 564 innings. Since 2016, in 498 innings, his ERA has been 4.10. Some would cite the rise as a by-product of pitching frequently against the fierce foes in the AL East. And that is a valid position. Facing high-scoring Boston, the Yankees, Toronto, and Baltimore carries many hazards for opposing hurlers. The 29 year-old Archer is a veteran of such wars. His 54-68 win/loss mark may reflect battle scars.

And they do. Almost 47% of Archer's innings have come against AL East adversaries, resulting in a 4.02 ERA and a 21-33 record. Versus the rest of MLB, he maintains a 3.39 ERA. In 21 career starts against NL teams, Archer's ERA is 3.29 . So, away from the usual opposition, he is a more effective starter.

The Pirates had to be aware of Archer's work given these contexts, or they wouldn't have sent 3 good young players in exchange.

 
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Bucs have used 20 pitchers this season. The club has an overall 4.22 ERA.

I looked at the 11 active ones, from Ivan Nova to Nick Kingham to Alex McRae, who've logged innings for the team. Their cumulative ERA is 3.84. Then, I examined the 9 who are either gone (Smoker, Glasnow, etc.) or inactive (Kuhl). Their composite ERA is 5.03. 

Kela and Archer should be fine additions to help get that ERA closer to, or under, the NL mean of 4.07.  

 
Pirates acquire shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria from Rays for playoff push.

Not overly relevant, but has to be the end of Sean Rod.

 
I know small sample size but suddenly Glasnow has pinpoint control and showing elite stuff.  Oh the joy of being a Pirates fan.

 
The club has 60 wins. I believe they have 29 games left with divisional rivals against whom they've played nearly .600 ball this season (28-19).

They also have a chunk of games versus Miami, KC, and Minnesota. In all, the schedule really favors a prospective post-season slot. But they have to keep hitting at the level they've demonstrated since the start of July.

 
I still think the playoffs are a long shot.  So many teams in the NL are in the race and I feel like the Pirates are still behind most of them in terms of talent.  What are we going to get from Archer?

 
fred_1_15301 said:
Oh and I think a change of scenery for Archer will only help.  Perhaps Glasnow turns into the stud that we thought he could be but moving to the AL East certainly can’t help his cause, right?  Meadows could be a solid outfielder but I don’t think we are giving up a stud.
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I have to backtrack on my initial take of this trade.  Apparently one of our top prospects (Shane Baz) is the 3rd guy listed in the trade.  So that's 3 top prospects for Archer.  Even if Archer is an ace, that's a lot to give up.  The likelihood that Archer suddenly turns into an ace is probably less than 1 %?  Yuck - this now reeks to me of a desperation move.  It doesn't help that Glasnow has pitched lights out since starting in Tampa.

Although I did yank Glasnow immediately off the waiver wire of a keeper league when I heard the news that he was being traded.  With the Pirates track record of selling pitchers who eventually turn into studs, I figured I had a potential lottery ticket.  Feeling pretty damn good about that move right now.

 
HellToupee said:
Pittsburgh Pirates are 61-61. Runs scored: 550. Runs allowed: 550. 

:yawn:
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The worst thing that could have happened to this team was that big win streak right before the trade deadline.  I guess management actually thought they had the talent to compete for a playoff spot.  Here we are minus 3 top prospects and the addition of the most overrated pitcher in baseball?

 
The Bucs are now 186-220 in Augusts and Septembers under Clint Hurdle, going back to 2011. That's .457 baseball. We are again witnessing the annual letdown.

 
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In four games this weekend, the Cubs and Pirates scored a combined nine runs. I don't know where that ranks historically for offensive futility, but it is has to be up there. 

 
fred_1_15301 said:
The worst thing that could have happened to this team was that big win streak right before the trade deadline.  I guess management actually thought they had the talent to compete for a playoff spot.  Here we are minus 3 top prospects and the addition of the most overrated pitcher in baseball?
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If that is what thy thought then the whole office needs gutted. This team is not a contender. The risky move was needed in 2014 when they really could have won the whole damn thing. 

 
Pirates in June/July under Hurdle-----237-181, a .567 win %.

Pirates in Aug/Sept under Hurdle-----189-225, a .457 win %.

 
fred_1_15301 said:
What an absolute disaster of a trade this has become.  Glasnow suddenly looks like a legit stud.  Archer is ####### horrible.  Nobody is going to show up next year.
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They are trying to force archer to use his sinker as his primary setup pitch. Which is totally new to him. 

This front office is so inept.  Terrible drafts and trades and timing. The time to take risks was 2014/2015. Not after trading away Cole and cutch. 

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
They are trying to force archer to use his sinker as his primary setup pitch. Which is totally new to him. 

This front office is so inept.  Terrible drafts and trades and timing. The time to take risks was 2014/2015. Not after trading away Cole and cutch. 
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Completely agree with all of this.  I'm ashamed that my initial reaction after the Archer trade was excitement.  I had no clue that the only thing holding back an elite talent like Glasnow was this organization.  

 
Adios to David Freese and the professionalism he brought to the club during for several years.

Buyers in July, sellers in August.

 
In the 72 starts by the trio of Williams, Musgrove, and Taillon, that part of the rotation has a 3.39 ERA. In the other 70 games, the Bucco starting rotation has a 4.71 ERA.

 
As disappointing as this season has been, Taillon sure has been a huge bright spot.  He's such a great story and he's turned into a very good pitcher.  

 
Archer looked like Doug Drabek, tonight. He was dealing.

It got so bad for the Cubs, the radio team of Pat Hughes and Ron Coomer spent an entire inning discussing how the Pirates have a Kramer, a Newman and a Frazier on their roster. 

 
Clinched a winning season tonight. Considering where the season started that is pretty amazing. Nobody saw it though. Attendance was Three Rivers bad. The FO needs to make a big splash in free agency to get the fans back. Machado would do.

 
:lmao:        But yeah not a bad season.  Just not sure what they’re building on.  The rotation could be decent.  Who knows about the bullpen but they were pretty bad this year.  Polanco probably won’t be at full strength until the 2nd half of next season at the earliest.  Who is going to help?  The rest of the lineup is meh and they don’t have any significant major league ready prospects who would even generate excitement.  My fear is that they actually overperformed this year and we saw their ceiling.

 
The 5 main starters they're counting on for next season---Williams, Taillon, Nova, Musgrove, and Archer---combined in 121 games for a 3.64 ERA. The other pitchers used in the rotation had 39 starts before today, for a 5.22 ERA.

 
Nova traded to CWS for a 19yo RHP and some international slot $$$ (no idea what that means, BTW, just reading tweets).

 
Nutting saying that signing a big free agent would create a payroll imbalance is the biggest bunch of BS I have heard in a while.  He is terrible.  Consider me a Phillies fan until the Pirates are sold.

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
Nutting saying that signing a big free agent would create a payroll imbalance is the biggest bunch of BS I have heard in a while.  He is terrible.  Consider me a Phillies fan until the Pirates are sold.
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I think it would behoove Nutting to just stay quiet.  He knows nothing about baseball and he’s acknowledged that.  

 
fred_1_15301 said:
You already changed your allegiance (which to me is pretty sad) so I'm not sure why the need to post again in here?     :shrug:    Just trying to mock the true fans?
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Before I posted the recent Nutting quote, the last post was December.

Join me.  Nutting and this front office does not care about winning or the fans. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. Join me on the dark side, and enjoy baseball again. 

I live in Philly and they signed Cutch, pretty easy transition. 

 
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Leeroy Jenkins said:
Before I posted the recent Nutting quote, the last post was December.

Join me.  Nutting and this front office does not care about winning or the fans. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. Join me on the dark side, and enjoy baseball again. 

I live in Philly and they signed Cutch, pretty easy transition. 
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I've been living in Philly area for 12 years and the thought has never even crossed my mind to switch allegiances.  I can't just force myself to start rooting for a new team.  Doesn't work like that if you're a true fan of a team.  Philly (along with L.A, Boston, NY, etc) epitomizes what I've always hated about baseball.  Unequal playing ground.  Sure it's easy for a team like Philly to just go out and buy talent when they have a massive TV deal and are in the 5th? largest market.  Yes small market teams do compete but they can't sustain it long term like these large market teams. Also, it's much more difficult for them to build a competitive team as they have less paths to obtain elite talent.

With all that said, I completely agree with you that Nutting is a complete piece of ####.  He's a despicable owner and I would love the day when he sells the team.  Hopefully it happens in my lifetime.  The "small market" excuse doesn't completely fly because he definitely has the ability to spend more than he has.  But he will never be able to spend what a team like Philly can.  Regardless I don't root for the owner.  I root for the city and the team.  

 
If you go back through these threads, I have been one of the more optimistic posters, giving management the benefit of the doubt on trades and what they were building towards.  I was a season ticket holder from 2006 until the year before they made the playoffs when I moved to philly. I couldn’t give tickets away or get people to go with me half the time. 

 Making no moves those years of contention and then unceremoniously trading Cutch and Cole for nothing really lost me. Then making a move for Archer just showed they had no strategy and were just concerned with their suddenly terrible attendance. The Pirates could have contended. They could have made moves. Look at Stl, cinci, Milwaukee, kansas city and san Diego. The padres signed machado. Imagine if the Pirates kept cutch and cole and made a move like that!  They are one of the most profitable teams in baseball and showed what kind of attendance they could get and tv interest generate with a team to believe in. They threw that good will away. 

The pirates abandoned me a long time ago, I was just in denial. I want them to succeed. But they will not with nutting and the current management. I want my kids to watch and enjoy baseball and i am not getting the mlb package to give the Pirates ratings. I don’t hate the pirates, but I cannot watch or support them until there is a change. In the meantime I will cheer on Cutch and a team that can win it all and bring my kids to a park that is pretty nice where we will hear that liberty ring from Cutch and Harper and the others. 

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
If you go back through these threads, I have been one of the more optimistic posters, giving management the benefit of the doubt on trades and what they were building towards.  I was a season ticket holder from 2006 until the year before they made the playoffs when I moved to philly. I couldn’t give tickets away or get people to go with me half the time. 

 Making no moves those years of contention and then unceremoniously trading Cutch and Cole for nothing really lost me. Then making a move for Archer just showed they had no strategy and were just concerned with their suddenly terrible attendance. The Pirates could have contended. They could have made moves. Look at Stl, cinci, Milwaukee, kansas city and san Diego. The padres signed machado. Imagine if the Pirates kept cutch and cole and made a move like that!  They are one of the most profitable teams in baseball and showed what kind of attendance they could get and tv interest generate with a team to believe in. They threw that good will away. 

The pirates abandoned me a long time ago, I was just in denial. I want them to succeed. But they will not with nutting and the current management. I want my kids to watch and enjoy baseball and i am not getting the mlb package to give the Pirates ratings. I don’t hate the pirates, but I cannot watch or support them until there is a change. In the meantime I will cheer on Cutch and a team that can win it all and bring my kids to a park that is pretty nice where we will hear that liberty ring from Cutch and Harper and the others. 
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You're putting me in a position to defend Pirates management and I really don't want to lol.  As I've said, Nutting is a despicable owner.  I agree with you on that.  Doesn't mean that I feel the need to switch allegiances to another team.  It's not about the owner to me.  Then again, I wasn't a season ticket holder so I can understand why you may be bitter.

The Cutch trade was unpopular (because he was a fan favorite) but as a pure baseball move, it was completely acceptable to trade him.  He was blocking what appeared to be better talent in the minors (Meadows) and he was trending downwards.  Defensively he was a complete liability and he wasn't even that great of a player offensively.  I didn't like the Cole trade when it happened but Cole also appeared to be trending in the wrong direction.  They ended up with Musgrove and the Astros # 5 and # 15 prospects.  In hindsight, that trade looks awful but did anyone expect that type of turnaround for Cole?  The one thing the Pirates were always touted for was developing pitchers.  Perhaps that was an overrated claim but hindsight is 20/20.

Regarding the other teams that you mentioned, the Padres have been a joke and I'm suspecting this Machado deal will not end well.  The Brewers have had sporadic success but no rings.  But give them credit for that Sabathia trade.  It was very risky at the time but it got them into the playoffs.  The Reds have had less success than the Pirates of late.  The Royals had a magical run that ended up in a ring but a lot of that felt like lightning in a bottle.  The Cardinals are just an amazing organization.  They are the gold standard.

What do you mean by the "Pirates could have contended"?  For 3 years in a row they were contenders.  The first year they beat the Reds in the WC round and played a more experienced Cardinals team.  The next year, they were a good team but again stuck in the same division as the Cardinals.  Then they went up against Bumgarner in a do-or-die matchup.  The 3rd year they were a 99 win team and somehow didn't win the division (and then had to face the best pitcher in baseball in the WC matchup).  Yes management could have done more but I also think there was a whole lot of bad luck sprinkled in there.  

 
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